Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?

[ksizl4life]

Ma Niga Neo Lmao

 

[Uffe]

When it comes to these discussions, I love how some people (usually those with no tournament credibility) act like they are robots with no ****ing conscience.


Play to win, yes, we all want to play to win - great, good, awesome, suck my ****.


However, if it were to be decided that Planking is a legitimate strategy it's basically going to come down to:

A. Everyone switches their mains to a character who can better deal with Planking, but probably has less of an advantage against MK (Switching your main from Falco to Pikachu just to deal with Planking, you'll lose anyway.. unless the MK sucks)

B. Metaknight dittos, get the first hit then Plank for the rest of the match. MK is the best planker and one of the worst at dealing with it.



Imagine a tournament scene where the finals is MK dittos, battle of the Plank. Sounds like loads of fun doesn't it? And this is after every other round has been an MK ditto with a Plank battle. I'd personally ****ing quit and go back to melee, a better game with a MUCH less of abundance of ridiculous annoying scrubs.


This is supposed to be a FUN COMMUNITY because the GAME is fun people, don't be ****ing ridiculous.


Some of you kids man

So what's your vote on this?

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

I voted ban it but I'm down for a ledge grab rule as well, either way is cool with me. It's just blatantly obvious that something needs to be enforced against it unless you guys plan on having a steadily fast dwindling Brawl scene.

 

[cutter]

This really needs to be the topic for the next SBR podcast.

 

[DerpDaBerp]

Why is one of the voting options "too early to vote"?

whatever though, ban that ****

 

[Hive]

I'm for a ban to limit stalling, and so don't take this the wrong way, I feel too much of it is unhealthy for the game and as a result the community. But I feel like people are consistently overlooking the impact that this could have on other characters besides mk. I guess I would be at least a lot more happier if people would at least say that the negative effects of this ban would be less than the benefits gained from hindering mk (the effect depending on certain matchups). The lower the limit is for a planking rule to limit mk's use will also hinder other characters to about the same degree, characters who, even with certain amounts of planking are still very beatable, and also hinder other characters who may plank as well. There are always costs and benefits to every ban.
Having said this I still think that the limit would be good.

also some questions I need for info please if someone would be kind enough to tell me ->

why if an mk is camping the ledge and the other player backs away from the ledge wouldn't the mk wouldn't be cited for stalling (forcing him to get up without a limit)?

last thing- The points that people bring up (it being a cheap tactic, causing certain matchups to be more advantaged, it being a tactic that takes less skill, making gameplay more boring, etc...) are all really the same points that were brought up with infinites. How are people arguing these are different exactly?

 

[brinboy789]

why is MK being referred as the only planker? there are other efficient plankers such as G&W and/or marth, all i see is MK being referred as the planker

 

[SwastikaPyle]

why is MK being referred as the only planker? there are other efficient plankers such as G&W and/or marth, all i see is MK being referred as the planker

I was gonna reply but then I saw your username.

 

[brinboy789]

I was gonna reply but then I saw your username.

...prejudice much? oh well

MK / G&W can plank really well, i dont see why its just MK thats being named as the planker.

 

[cutter]

It's mainly because there are FAR more Metas than G&Ws. When is the last time you saw a planking G&W in a tournament?

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Brawl Singles Finals 2010


"The Year of the Plank"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4jYJ-Yjf3w​

EPIC FINALS SET​

^Where the game will end up if you guys keep acting like special ed students


very fun to watch and play imo


rofl

 

[brinboy789]

It's mainly because there are FAR more Metas than G&Ws. When is the last time you saw a planking G&W in a tournament?

yea i know that plank and others ledge stall excessively but still G&W can efficiently ledgestall too. i guess G&W players just dont but seriously they both can ledgestall efficiently

edit: wow, i was jsut watching that. i quit after 3 mins cause it got a tiny bit boring

 

[Hive]

wouldn't that count as stalling though? :/

 

[SCOTU]

hey. I was just "running away to gain a more advantageous position" which is clearly stated in the sbr ruleset as "not stalling"

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

saddest part of the vid is SCOTU isn't even doing it well lol

 

[Deleted member]

saddest part of the vid is SCOTU isn't even doing it well lol

correction. saddest part is that you don't have to do it well.

 

[SCOTU]

I'm really bad at brawl.

 

[kozimoto]

well it is a legit strategy

Its wierd, I feel like some characters like pit who spam planking do it to tell their opponent to GTFO. And there are other characters that spam it that really don't need to. I would have to go with don't even bother touching on the subject but thats not one of the votes XD

but really don't ban it.

 

[SCOTU]

i thought that planking was totally freakin broke, even during that tourney, but here's the catch: (despite me being really bad at it) it didn't help me to beat players that were better than me. I don't really think it's particularly broken anymore.

 

[kozimoto]

Also, this would probably be the best argument for banning MK right here, once planking becomes more widespread. Can anyone else in the game do it as effectively as MK?

I've seen Pit, DK and ZSS ledge stall very well. I'm not sure about others though.

 

[Hive]

hey. I was just "running away to gain a more advantageous position" which is clearly stated in the sbr ruleset as "not stalling"

lol ^^


ok so i was wondering, what if the sbr just expanded its rules of stalling to not allowing the other player to camp the ledge when the other player isn't approaching/in non projectile ledge attack range that it would be a better alternative to the limit and judge rulings on stalling? I thought it would be a good/less debated alternative because it would allow the person on the ledge not to be put into situations where they are forced to come up from the ledge and catch heavy disadvantages, it would limit mks ledge game to being a non-offensive measure, and it would be the expansion of a previous rule instead of a specific ban (it would effectively not allow ledge camping and solve some other problems- it would take away ledge advantages, by giving the opponent more control over the situation, and at the same time never make the person on the ledge never have to come up against an opponent from the ledge, who could say cg them or whatever.). Course i imagine i'm probably missing something (did this already come up before?)

edit: reason I thought of this is because it allows two things to happen. it prevents mk from stalling the ledge if the opponent does not want to face him there. and it also gives other characters the chance to create some space first to come up with so they don't leap into a cg or flamethrower, regardless of how many times they've hit the ledge in the past.

 

[Crystanium]

saddest part of the vid is SCOTU isn't even doing it well lol

At least he won. Good games, SCOTU. Your opponent probably got bored. The double planking was silly.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

The Stupid thing about edge hogging, is if that with a small advantage and the time runs out you can win with planking or edge hogging

 

[petrie911]

There's an additional option: change how we decide the win when time runs out. I rather liked the idea that time running out results in double forfeit for the game. Gives the players a real incentive to get their matches done in a timely manner. (Note that it would still require 2 wins to win a set)

BTW, I'm sure this has been asked many times in the thread, but I'm not reading through 18 pages of topic. Is MK the only character with a problematic ledgestall, or are there other characters who can stall as well as him?

 

[fromundaman]

[The post was buried in the last few days, so I'm not going to bother looking for it, but this is a reply to Matador:]

Hmmm... I'm starting to think one of us doesn't really understand the stalling rules (and by one of us, I mean probably me.). Is it stalling only if your opponent cannot hit you? If so, do most TOs know of this? I ask because last time I went to a tourny and as I mentioned before, just sat at the ledge as Kirby waiting for someone to approach without abusing invulnerability I was told that I was stalling since my opponent was not even attempting to approach me, and that I was obviously not trying to attack him either.

So basically, what qualifies as stalling? Just running the clock while being invulnerable/unhittable?

 

[SCOTU]

lol ^^


ok so i was wondering, what if the sbr just expanded its rules of stalling to not allowing the other player to camp the ledge when the other player isn't approaching/in non projectile ledge attack range that it would be a better alternative to the limit and judge rulings on stalling? I thought it would be a good/less debated alternative because it would allow the person on the ledge not to be put into situations where they are forced to come up from the ledge and catch heavy disadvantages, it would limit mks ledge game to being a non-offensive measure, and it would be the expansion of a previous rule instead of a specific ban (it would effectively not allow ledge camping and solve some other problems- it would take away ledge advantages, by giving the opponent more control over the situation, and at the same time never make the person on the ledge never have to come up against an opponent from the ledge, who could say cg them or whatever.). Course i imagine i'm probably missing something (did this already come up before?)

edit: reason I thought of this is because it allows two things to happen. it prevents mk from stalling the ledge if the opponent does not want to face him there. and it also gives other characters the chance to create some space first to come up with so they don't leap into a cg or flamethrower.

The problem is what's preventing them from just stage camping near the edge if the other guy can't approach/ projectile camp? or they could just go on the stage, and then go back to camping the ledge, depending on how exactly you defined it. There just simply isn't a way to define it like this. This is the way i originally tried to come up w/ a rule to ban planking with, but abandoned it when even I (good at precisely defining things) couldn't come up w/ a way to make a specific rule that actually fixes the problem.

There's an additional option: change how we decide the win when time runs out. I rather liked the idea that time running out results in double forfeit for the game. Gives the players a real incentive to get their matches done in a timely manner. (Note that it would still require 2 wins to win a set)

BTW, I'm sure this has been asked many times in the thread, but I'm not reading through 18 pages of topic. Is MK the only character with a problematic ledgestall, or are there other characters who can stall as well as him?

Having two ppl lose a set is atrocious for a bracket. That can lead to really stupid byes.

Personally, i'm for the "if the game goes to time, MK loses" except that doesn't cover the ditto.

 

[Uffe]

I voted ban it but I'm down for a ledge grab rule as well, either way is cool with me. It's just blatantly obvious that something needs to be enforced against it unless you guys plan on having a steadily fast dwindling Brawl scene.

It's cool. I was just asking because that last reply threw me off. It sounded like you were for it but then it sounded like you were against it. I still say if this is banned, they shouldn't enforce a number rule with it. I can try to get back and have the only means of getting back to the stage by grabbing the edge. That's the flaw with the number rule of grabbing the edge. Same applies with getting pushed off the cliff while your shield is up and falling onto the edge. Some attacks will do this and some won't. Either way, again with the number rule. It's flawed.

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

Hm, I wonder why the judge ruling has the least votes? I find it the most sensible.

However, I guess it is unrealistic for there to be a judge behind the tv stations at each tournament to prevent planking.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I've seen Pit, DK and ZSS ledge stall very well. I'm not sure about others though.

ZSS? Really?

Pit I could understand because he would be quite good at just flapping his way from one side of the stage to the next.

 

[Sukai]

Finally got my *** on a computer.

Not every character can remain viable. More than half of the cast already isn't. If Planking makes this amount smaller but still more than just one character, there's no need for a ban. There's still enough diversity to keep things competitive.

Okay, so here it is.
A character's tournament viability is measured at their strengths and weaknesses, combine with their ability to use one to cover up the other in the highest level of tournament play.
There are many factors that go into a character's tournament viability.
But if viability becomes determined by whether or not a character can deal with planking, then there is something really wrong with it.

You knew as soon as you typed it that there was something wrong with this statement. Wobbling was never universally banned. Just at certain tourneys.

There was nothing wrong with this statement. Indeed it is allowed at certain tourneys, but the point remained that it's effectiveness caused it to be banned. If it wasn't absolutely broken, then banning it wouldn't be a consideration, follow?


Silly video SCOTU, that's why I say it should be limited, not banned.

 

[CRASHiC]

Jigglypuff can plank without touching the ledge.
Sing cancel gives back all jumps without touching the edge.
The ledge rule will not work.

 

[kozimoto]

ZSS? Really?

Pit I could understand because he would be quite good at just flapping his way from one side of the stage to the next.

It's not even that its because pit when he used WoI he gets a small boost and when somebody trys to approach the wingpush puts them away.

and the ZSS thingy i don't know how to explain but I saw snakeee do it against DSF it was cool lol

 

[illinialex24]

Jigglypuff can plank without touching the ledge.
Sing cancel gives back all jumps without touching the edge.
The ledge rule will not work.

Its called a lightstep so yeah she can stay under the ledge and cancel out with it using sing. But she still is vulnerable when she's coming up to the ledge.

 

[MaxDeUh]

I'm sure some people are way ahead of me on this issue, but it recently dawned me on that if we add a ledge grab rule, and if those grabs exceed an X amount of grabs that are allowed, that player automatically loses that match. Regardless if he/she actually won. So wouldn't it be obvious for both players to pressure the other on the ledge as much, so when the match is over, they can blame one another on exceeding that X number?

 

[illinialex24]

I'm sure some people are way ahead of me on this issue, but it recently dawned me on that if we add a ledge grab rule, and if those grabs exceed an X amount of grabs that are allowed, that player automatically loses that match. Regardless if he/she actually won. So wouldn't it be obvious for both players to pressure the other on the ledge as much, so when the match is over, they can blame one another on exceeding that X number?

No it would be a consecutive edge grab rule. Like for example this might be a ruke:

If you grab the ledge more than 10 times consecutively, you need to be off the ledge and on the stage for the next 20 seconds.

If you grab the ledge an 11th time, you need to be onstage, if not edgeguarding, for 30 seconds or so.

Grabbing the ledge 12 or more times without hitting the grounded or hitting your opponent (ie, so it doesn't punish a really long edgeguard), is prohibited.

 

[B!squick]

I'm sure some people are way ahead of me on this issue, but it recently dawned me on that if we add a ledge grab rule, and if those grabs exceed an X amount of grabs that are allowed, that player automatically loses that match. Regardless if he/she actually won. So wouldn't it be obvious for both players to pressure the other on the ledge as much, so when the match is over, they can blame one another on exceeding that X number?

This rule would only come into effect if the match times out. You can, however unlikely it would be, exceed the ledge grab limit as much as you want, so long as the match doesn't time out. So you could plank for the entire match as long as you get 3 KOs.

 

[illinialex24]

This rule would only come into effect if the match times out. You can, however unlikely it would be, exceed the ledge grab limit as much as you want, so long as the match doesn't time out. So you could plank for the entire match as long as you get 3 KOs.

Well if it only comes into play at the end, then its highly subjective... Which isn't whats recommended for a blanket rule due to all sorts of biases that could form.

 

[Gotham7]

How about some gentleman's rules be put in place? It's obvious when somebody is playing using an unfair advantage against somebody that is considered cheating like planking so why not just have a judge give a warning and if the player repeats then they are issued an automatic loss.

Obviously things like chaingrabs won't be banned.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Wouldnt it be better to institute something like this:
5 ledge grabs: u have to get back onstage and wait another minute to ledgegrab again. Except if ur opponent throws u back offstage, u can regrab once again. As long as u r sent offstage by ur opponent, u can ledgegrab to get back onstage. If u exceed the 5 ledge grab rule, u must SD...kinda like a better version of the DBR genesis rule.

 

[Steel]

MK's can completely run out the clock while only grabbing the ledge 30-40 times. Because of this, while it would need a lot of discussion I kind of like SCOTU's rule of "If the clock runs out, the MK loses."