GwJ
Smash Hero
Exactly. Items never were banned. Sonic's Spring, ROB's gyro, Peach's turnips, etc... They're just turned off.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Should Planking (i.e. Ledgestalling) be Banned?
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
Dantarion
Smash Champion
Character related items were never being considered for banning....
No one uses items in tournaments because of how quickly they can swing the battle for one person by appearing right next to them.
No one uses items in tournaments because of how quickly they can swing the battle for one person by appearing right next to them.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Items really dont need anymore discussion, it gets really annoying when people restate things everyone on SWF who's been here for like a month know.
The issue is, a lot of the issues with items are problems on PAPER, not neccesarily because they were causing massive problems in tourneys. I'm aware they WERE tested in tournaments to an extent, but how do we know we tested it enough to ban it? How do we know that planking has been in tourneys long enough to make a decision? What is the cutoff point for times for things that should be banned?
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
I think he meant the MK, Straked 
.
I had a hard time concentrating on it, but it was over 90. I think 95. It was 3 minutes worth of planking. I'm surprised it wasn't called stalling, especially since thats just 30 seconds away from being half the match
.
.I had a hard time concentrating on it, but it was over 90. I think 95. It was 3 minutes worth of planking. I'm surprised it wasn't called stalling, especially since thats just 30 seconds away from being half the match
.
Dantarion
Smash Champion
That match to me is a perfect example of there being pretty much NOTHING the player could do to stop the Planking.
True, NOrFAIR is the worst stage for that, but **** wtf are you supposed to do against an MK that does that?
CP MK AND DO IT TO IT.
True, NOrFAIR is the worst stage for that, but **** wtf are you supposed to do against an MK that does that?
CP MK AND DO IT TO IT.
It was a 1$ impromptu tournament at an apartment smashfest, so there wasn't a no planking rule.
Im just posting it as evidence as to why planking should be banned.
And yeah, I was definetly way over ANY sensible ledgegrab limit, but I think the limit should be around 40 grabs.
Im just posting it as evidence as to why planking should be banned.
And yeah, I was definetly way over ANY sensible ledgegrab limit, but I think the limit should be around 40 grabs.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
hal i think more like 60-70 should be ok planking is a legit part of the meta game but if its more than 70 grabs theres a serious problem
Was that match really so bad? The Wario player was absolutely refusing to take any risks or get aggressive or use his good aerial mobility to approach from the air. Even when he was down and time was running out, he didn't change his strategy. Given how much he was up at one point, it's not like he didn't have plenty of opportunity to win (he only gave up his lead in the end by a braindead moment of throwing himself into the lava).
He also would have had more time to deal with the situation if he hadn't basically done nothing for the first minute of the match. The Wario player was barely less campy than the Meta Knight in general actually (when he was up, he was transparently trying to run the timer in Wario's own way); I don't see why we're supposed to look at this situation as him being victimized by planking. Both players tried to run the timer, and the match ended by the timer. What's the problem?
He also would have had more time to deal with the situation if he hadn't basically done nothing for the first minute of the match. The Wario player was barely less campy than the Meta Knight in general actually (when he was up, he was transparently trying to run the timer in Wario's own way); I don't see why we're supposed to look at this situation as him being victimized by planking. Both players tried to run the timer, and the match ended by the timer. What's the problem?
"Planking" is not a legit part of the metagame. Ledgrabbing and ledgegame is. Nobody has any business grabbing the ledge more than even 50 times....
Well, that was on Norfair, and demonstrates that it is much easier to build up ledge grabs on Norfair. However, despite having 6 ledges, Norfair is interesting in that the lava will force the planker to eventually approach (or try to go around) their opponent. Also, unlike most stages, the top four ledges are relatively easier to access, which means that although the planker has more choices, they are MUCH more vulnerable when they drop down since they don't have a solid stage to shield them.
The Wario was kinda panicking too, and was SHADing a lot of the time to try to bait something when the MK was obviously ignoring all of that.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
That last video got me to thinking... Why are we arguing about keeping planking as a tactic? Its been bothering me for some time now. Most of the arguments I've seen pro-planking are along the lines of "Its too early to tell" and "It screws over Pit, ROB and Samus' tactics" and the final, beautiful argument "it can be beat". These arguments make no sense in light that the community as a whole decided to "ban" stalling, and this is EXACTLY what planking is. Allow me to explain my reasoning...
Characters like ROB, Pit and Samus use the ledge to boost the effectiveness of their camping game. They only need to pop up above the ledge to use their projectiles. This forces an approach from the opposing player because they are being attacked. Not only does the opposing character take damage, the point of the camping is to get the opponent's damage up to KO percentage. The tactic is also beatable because the invincibility frames don't work when the player is using their projectile.
Another well known use of the ledge is when characters are forced to the ledge by the opponent (usually in the form of knocking them off-stage) and renew their ledge invincibility until the opportunity arises to get back on the stage. In this case, the player on the stage is causing the tactic by not letting the opponent get back on. Soon enough, the opportunity presents itself for the ledgegraber to make their move to get back to the ledge and "sink or swim" as they say. Lets compare these situations to planking.
The planker will run to the edge after the opponent has reached a higher percentage and then simply drop and hop back up repeatedly to wind down the clock. They don't need to attack because if the clock runs out, they win. This is the kicker of the whole mess, and I want everyone to pay close attention to it. The planker is NOT forcing the opponent to approach. The clock and the higher percentage rule are. The planker is doing nothing but stalling the game until they win. It doesn't matter if this tactic is beatable. This tactic is the ESSENCE of stalling, which is already banned. Why are we still even talking about it?
My thoughts for enforcement of the ban are a fusion of the first two options. Not all matches can be judged in a tourney due to lack of personnel, so I would propose a ledge-grab limit (in the range of 45-65) using the aforementioned stipulation of the clock needing to run out and have all matches in from the semi-finals on judged. This ensures that if a planker makes their way up the ranks somehow, they can't place using that tactic alone. The edge-grab rule would be enforced regardless of whether or not the judge is there.
*whew*
Sorry for that, but I needed to get it out of my system.
[/RANT]
Characters like ROB, Pit and Samus use the ledge to boost the effectiveness of their camping game. They only need to pop up above the ledge to use their projectiles. This forces an approach from the opposing player because they are being attacked. Not only does the opposing character take damage, the point of the camping is to get the opponent's damage up to KO percentage. The tactic is also beatable because the invincibility frames don't work when the player is using their projectile.
Another well known use of the ledge is when characters are forced to the ledge by the opponent (usually in the form of knocking them off-stage) and renew their ledge invincibility until the opportunity arises to get back on the stage. In this case, the player on the stage is causing the tactic by not letting the opponent get back on. Soon enough, the opportunity presents itself for the ledgegraber to make their move to get back to the ledge and "sink or swim" as they say. Lets compare these situations to planking.
The planker will run to the edge after the opponent has reached a higher percentage and then simply drop and hop back up repeatedly to wind down the clock. They don't need to attack because if the clock runs out, they win. This is the kicker of the whole mess, and I want everyone to pay close attention to it. The planker is NOT forcing the opponent to approach. The clock and the higher percentage rule are. The planker is doing nothing but stalling the game until they win. It doesn't matter if this tactic is beatable. This tactic is the ESSENCE of stalling, which is already banned. Why are we still even talking about it?
My thoughts for enforcement of the ban are a fusion of the first two options. Not all matches can be judged in a tourney due to lack of personnel, so I would propose a ledge-grab limit (in the range of 45-65) using the aforementioned stipulation of the clock needing to run out and have all matches in from the semi-finals on judged. This ensures that if a planker makes their way up the ranks somehow, they can't place using that tactic alone. The edge-grab rule would be enforced regardless of whether or not the judge is there.
*whew*
Sorry for that, but I needed to get it out of my system.
[/RANT]
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,527
That last video got me to thinking... Why are we arguing about keeping planking as a tactic? Its been bothering me for some time now. Most of the arguments I've seen pro-planking are along the lines of "Its too early to tell" and "It screws over Pit, ROB and Samus' tactics" and the final, beautiful argument "it can be beat". These arguments make no sense in light that the community as a whole decided to "ban" stalling, and this is EXACTLY what planking is. Allow me to explain my reasoning...
Characters like ROB, Pit and Samus use the ledge to boost the effectiveness of their camping game. They only need to pop up above the ledge to use their projectiles. This forces an approach from the opposing player because they are being attacked. Not only does the opposing character take damage, the point of the camping is to get the opponent's damage up to KO percentage. The tactic is also beatable because the invincibility frames don't work when the player is using their projectile.
Another well known use of the ledge is when characters are forced to the ledge by the opponent (usually in the form of knocking them off-stage) and renew their ledge invincibility until the opportunity arises to get back on the stage. In this case, the player on the stage is causing the tactic by not letting the opponent get back on. Soon enough, the opportunity presents itself for the ledgegraber to make their move to get back to the ledge and "sink or swim" as they say. Lets compare these situations to planking.
The planker will run to the edge after the opponent has reached a higher percentage and then simply drop and hop back up repeatedly to wind down the clock. They don't need to attack because if the clock runs out, they win. This is the kicker of the whole mess, and I want everyone to pay close attention to it. The planker is NOT forcing the opponent to approach. The clock and the higher percentage rule are. The planker is doing nothing but stalling the game until they win. It doesn't matter if this tactic is beatable. This tactic is the ESSENCE of stalling, which is already banned. Why are we still even talking about it?
My thoughts for enforcement of the ban are a fusion of the first two options. Not all matches can be judged in a tourney due to lack of personnel, so I would propose a ledge-grab limit (in the range of 45-65) using the aforementioned stipulation of the clock needing to run out and have all matches in from the semi-finals on judged. This ensures that if a planker makes their way up the ranks somehow, they can't place using that tactic alone. The edge-grab rule would be enforced regardless of whether or not the judge is there.
*whew*
Sorry for that, but I needed to get it out of my system.
[/RANT]
Holy ****, this is the most spot on argument I've seen in favor of banning Planking.
"Get ***** every-idiot-in-this-thread-who-supports-planking-and-probably-doesn't-play-in-tournaments-and-of-they-do-probably-aren't-that-good-and/or-haven't-fought-it-themselves"
LoyalSoldier
Smash Apprentice
It still resulted in one of the most boring matches I have seen in a while.
That is the thing we keep forgetting, what if the other player refuses to approach? Stalemate. Especially if that player has a character that does not have a good response to that.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Look, lets say we have Marth dittos on FD. Marth 1 is winning with 6 minutes left. He just sits there. The other player doesn't want to expose himself by approaching for some reason. Thats still the clock forcing the other to approach but no one would consider the Marth 1 as a staller. He's just keeping a favorable position he won to do whatever he wants. Same is true for some forms of planking, I view G&W and MK as the exception.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Isn't it the same every time you're at a higher percent then your opponent?The planker will run to the edge after the opponent has reached a higher percentage and then simply drop and hop back up repeatedly to wind down the clock. They don't need to attack because if the clock runs out, they win. This is the kicker of the whole mess, and I want everyone to pay close attention to it. The planker is NOT forcing the opponent to approach. The clock and the higher percentage rule are. The planker is doing nothing but stalling the game until they win. It doesn't matter if this tactic is beatable. This tactic is the ESSENCE of stalling, which is already banned. Why are we still even talking about it?
Doesn't the clock and the timer always force you to approach unless you can somehow outcamp them?
So, you're wrong, this is not stalling.
This is something that you are attempting to redefine to fit under the general definition of a term that we already have a technical definition for, and it is ONLY the technical definition that has been banned.
So, we haven't banned this nebulous "stalling", we banned only infinite stalling techniques, in other words things that allow you to be permanently invincible. That is the technical definition of stalling in brawl.
So, no. Planking is NOT stalling, you have vulnerability frames, plankers can be attacked.
Marth has no hitbox with his ledge-drop to up-b stall, and his ledge-game is pretty pathetic.Just go in and ledgesteal.
But... minus the ledge+drop+hop, that's camping. O_O When camping, it's the higher percentage rule+clock that makes the people approach. So... we're talking about it because you've talked about the essence of camping AND stalling, not just stalling.
The planker will run to the edge after the opponent has reached a higher percentage and then simply drop and hop back up repeatedly to wind down the clock. They don't need to attack because if the clock runs out, they win. This is the kicker of the whole mess, and I want everyone to pay close attention to it. The planker is NOT forcing the opponent to approach. The clock and the higher percentage rule are. The planker is doing nothing but stalling the game until they win. It doesn't matter if this tactic is beatable. This tactic is the ESSENCE of stalling, which is already banned. Why are we still even talking about it?
[/RANT]
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
So... if plankings allowed I'm allowed to use homing attack on the bottom of the stage right? You can always counterpick characters that can get to me.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I never said Marth goes offstage. No Marth is gonna want to be offstage on another Marth but I'm just saying both are on stage but the other doesn't want to approach.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
It's not even a real stall. The opponent can slowly but surely force you to come back up just by positioning themselves at key points on the stage before each HA goes off.
Orange_Soda_Man
Smash Ace
I'm not going to address these in order.
2: Once you are no longer running, you are no longer running. For all intents and purposes, the planker has reached their ideal position. Speaking only in terms of positioning, this is no different from the Homing Stall as Terios pointed out. Basically ... this non-stalling rule does not apply to planking, as far as I can tell.
3. Taking the words literally ... moving on.
4. Irrelevant.
1. The planker clearly is deliberately avoiding conflict. While it does not definitively make the game unplayable, ... it is certainly an effort at making the game unplayable.
=================
I'm on the limit side of this, but I am more than willing to accept the ban.
I was under the impression that you could just drift inbetween each HA to counteract any of your opponent's attempts to pull you one way or another.
Anyway, what IS the difference between planking versus gliding under the stage, Jigglypuff's sing-canceling jump refreshing AT, HA stalling, and running around in loops in large stages?
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Limiting is banning. If you put a limit, the person isn't forced to approach the planker because of the time limit. AKA, there'd be no point of anyone planking.
The thing people are forgetting is that there are ways to get around planking. Some characters completely shut down planking, while others can make it really troublesome to the planker, it just takes more effort. Yes, some characters get beat by planking that we know of.
But realize that, "get beat by planking," just means they're getting put in a disadvantageous position. How disadvantageous, we don't really know. Some characters might get outright gimped, while others may be able to squeeze attacks in and nullify planking. Fact is, we just don't know. People say that characters get put in a disadvantageous position...what is this, exactly? Seriously, I want people to tell me.
Fact is, we don't know enough about planking and how to get around it or deal with it. I don't think many character boards have even addressed the issue...each character board should make a thread of how they should deal with planking. People need to experiment and see all the options, see exactly what happens and what someone can do to circumvent the tactic.
But not only that, planking is hardly ever used. It was obviously known in September, and it hasn't been a problem in tournaments. Everyone links to the same two videos (now 3 probably, seeing what RedHalberd posted), but no one actually takes the time to see how many people planked in how many tournaments. No one's won with planking. No one's placed high solely by planking. I doubt many people have planked in tournaments period. And if they have, TOs or whoever should report this instead of people using generic, vague, and unsupported claims like, "Planking is a problem, we should ban it because it's unfair!"
Also, planking, by definition, shouldn't be considered stalling. It can be circumvented, and the planker is in a position where he can be hit. It's not like IDC where you physically can't be hit...plankers can be hit and approached, it's just that there's a higher chance of one being put in a disadvantageous position by doing something. And if you're just standing around on the stage, you're stalling as much as the planker.
The thing people are forgetting is that there are ways to get around planking. Some characters completely shut down planking, while others can make it really troublesome to the planker, it just takes more effort. Yes, some characters get beat by planking that we know of.
But realize that, "get beat by planking," just means they're getting put in a disadvantageous position. How disadvantageous, we don't really know. Some characters might get outright gimped, while others may be able to squeeze attacks in and nullify planking. Fact is, we just don't know. People say that characters get put in a disadvantageous position...what is this, exactly? Seriously, I want people to tell me.
Fact is, we don't know enough about planking and how to get around it or deal with it. I don't think many character boards have even addressed the issue...each character board should make a thread of how they should deal with planking. People need to experiment and see all the options, see exactly what happens and what someone can do to circumvent the tactic.
But not only that, planking is hardly ever used. It was obviously known in September, and it hasn't been a problem in tournaments. Everyone links to the same two videos (now 3 probably, seeing what RedHalberd posted), but no one actually takes the time to see how many people planked in how many tournaments. No one's won with planking. No one's placed high solely by planking. I doubt many people have planked in tournaments period. And if they have, TOs or whoever should report this instead of people using generic, vague, and unsupported claims like, "Planking is a problem, we should ban it because it's unfair!"
Also, planking, by definition, shouldn't be considered stalling. It can be circumvented, and the planker is in a position where he can be hit. It's not like IDC where you physically can't be hit...plankers can be hit and approached, it's just that there's a higher chance of one being put in a disadvantageous position by doing something. And if you're just standing around on the stage, you're stalling as much as the planker.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I think there's poetic justice in using a ledge to force some guy with a laser to come to you. Anyone else?
EDIT: In seriousness, just call it stalling. What if I'm not planking, but I'm fighting say, Falco, and I grab the edge instead of trying to approach him when he shoots lasers and just... wait? I'm not planking. Is there a rule vs that?
EDIT: In seriousness, just call it stalling. What if I'm not planking, but I'm fighting say, Falco, and I grab the edge instead of trying to approach him when he shoots lasers and just... wait? I'm not planking. Is there a rule vs that?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Again, "unplayable" has a specific meaning as well. It refers to "undeniably ending or preventing gameply".
This one takes a page out of sirlin, and it's better explained in the "immediate ban-worthy glitches" section of this page:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html
The infinite chain-grab example was used precisely to show this, if you're infinitely stuck in a chaingrab then your opponent can infinitely stall using that technique because you never have the ability to take another action unless your opponent makes a mistake.
That renders the game "unplayable" in the technical sense, in exactly the same way the IDC renders it unplayable,
Planking just makes it very boring according to some people.
Haha, this is the problem summed up so easily. Who cares if you LOSE to planking? What matters is if you WIN by planking. I haven't lost in tournaments to planking (though I've fought against it a bit and dealt with it effectively!), but I have USED planking in tournament. It didn't win it for me; it wasn't even close. If you want to make evidence that it's so bad, don't just lose to it. Win with it. If you think planking is so good and don't even use it yourself, why should anyone take you seriously?
The funny thing about this is that I never thought planking was that good, but I saw how many people wanted to ban it. That was enough inspiration for me to want to use it (if so many people want to ban it, maybe I should do it!). It was better than I thought for sure; I'll be hanging out on the ledge more in the future. On the other hand, it didn't even come close to auto win, and it's not even close to mindless. You basically can only do it for a little against people who actually know how to counter it (I don't profess that every character can, but every character I've tried it against could).
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Get ****ing *****.
Seriously anyone who calls planking stalling can immediately just be ignored. I dont even have to plank vs Falco as Kirby, I can just duck. What is the difference, besides a change in tactics. I'm safer defending than I am approaching, but something can be done about it, the Falco can still approach me.
Also everyone should stare at my sig for a bit.
(I will say, once again, I hate planking and dont really support it, I just find the idea of a ban silly.)
Anyone?
Meh, Azen could probably beat IDC. I mean, your sig shows how broken Azen is; he can beat techniques that are never used against him.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Thus, we must call for the ban of Azen.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
What AA said is amazing.
Xien, the difference is that the planker can actually be hit. And sure, you might be able to get an attack in at the guy running around the stage, but you really shouldn't. With Planking, you can actually hit the person. You may put yourself in a bad position with half the cast, but you can still hit them.
Xien, the difference is that the planker can actually be hit. And sure, you might be able to get an attack in at the guy running around the stage, but you really shouldn't. With Planking, you can actually hit the person. You may put yourself in a bad position with half the cast, but you can still hit them.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
There's a difference between her sing AT, which leaves her vulnerable for a bit and definitely open, and her jump refresh, which doesn't leave her open. Plus if the edge is grabbed, it doesn't work because its a lightstep.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
I think he was talking about standing still rather than hanging out on the ledge. Because the defensive Marth would have an advantage in that situation.
Orange_Soda_Man
Smash Ace
cool link, and thanks for the definition. However, I still see planking as an attempt by a player to make the game unplayable.
Even if they don't make the game unplayable [they don't], it is still an attempt at such. An attempt to run the clock. An attempt to stall out the clock. An attempt to stall.
Homing Stall is an attempt to make the game unplayable as well. Homing Stall is banned. Homing Stall and Planking both are attempts at stalling out the clock. I can see them both being banned, these are just the connections I've made. That said I'd think a ledge grab limit would be best.
/imo.
MajinSweet
Smash Journeyman
Because ITS NOT STALLING ITS CAMPING. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. If some one starts planking, and you sit on the stage doing nothing, or are camping just as much as he is. Neither of you are approaching, when you both could. Stalling is when one player puts themselves in a situation where YOU CANNOT do anything, or you could but you are for sure going to lose a stock. Planking isn't like that. Many characters have safe options against a planker. Just because you want to pick your favorite character who happens to get ***** by planking doesn't make it broken.
Yes, and you don't need to attack while camping if you have a percentage lead. That's how we have been playing smash since Melee. That is how the timer works. The only reason this is a problem now is because Brawl favors defensive play so much. It's only natural for people to camp when they get the lead, that is Brawl, that is how it is played.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD YOU JUST SAID HOW IT WASN'T STALLING IN YOUR OWN POST. We have the clock and percentage rule for just that very reason. If you CAN approach, but just don't want to, despite being behind, no one is stalling. Your just being stubborn.Another well known use of the ledge is when characters are forced to the ledge by the opponent (usually in the form of knocking them off-stage) and renew their ledge invincibility until the opportunity arises to get back on the stage. In this case, the player on the stage is causing the tactic by not letting the opponent get back on. Soon enough, the opportunity presents itself for the ledgegraber to make their move to get back to the ledge and "sink or swim" as they say. Lets compare these situations to planking.
The planker will run to the edge after the opponent has reached a higher percentage and then simply drop and hop back up repeatedly to wind down the clock. They don't need to attack because if the clock runs out, they win. This is the kicker of the whole mess, and I want everyone to pay close attention to it. The planker is NOT forcing the opponent to approach. The clock and the higher percentage rule are. The planker is doing nothing but stalling the game until they win. It doesn't matter if this tactic is beatable. This tactic is the ESSENCE of stalling, which is already banned. Why are we still even talking about it?
Or we could just play the game.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Unban stages that make planking, limited or undoable. Problem solved.
Simply don't play "neutral" stages against a planker.
Simply don't play "neutral" stages against a planker.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Majin Sweet I love you.
infomon
Smash Scientist
As was mentioned, this isn't quite true. On most stages, you can stand above the stage but get within Sonic's homing range so that you do indeed control its direction. (So it's the opponent who could "force" the Sonic to either stall or suicide.) But on stages with a big gap (like if you're under the very bottom middle of FD), the Sonic can indeed stall against some characters.
Thank goodness. I came into this thread worried that it would be overrun by scrubs ready to ban anything they happen to dislike. I'm glad that won't be a problem.