Should speech and conduct rules be enforced in the Smash community?

[Linkshot]

Personally, I think society in general is becoming too overly-sensitive and PC. I would really hate to see this seep into gaming communities.

Funny, I'm thinking the opposite based on my time around the internet.

 

[Raen]

People might find this interesting:

I am a long time gamer that has recently discovered his addiction to competition. About 2 years ago I picked up the Pokemon Trading Card Game and have been very successful in major competitions. I realized just how much I love competition, and I began looking into competitive play for game I really enjoy.

One of these game was Smash Brothers in particular, and fighting games in general.

I was almost instantly turned off. The community is incredibly irrespectful, rude, thoughless, unsportsmanlike and unprofessional. If fighting games in general, and Smash Brother in particular, EVER want to be considered a legitimate sport (heck, we can put all of 'esports' into this), this has to change.

Let me as you a question: When you go see a basketball game, do you expect the players and audience members to scream "****" all the time? Do you expect f-bombs every other sentence? Absolutely not. And if you did, then basketball would be a niche game that no one took seriously, and that very few people played.

Let's ask another question: Using basketball as an example, does the NBA let players get away with poor sportsmanship? The answer is no. Any major professional sport holds their players to certain standards as related to sportsmanship and ethics. I really see no reason this should hold true in Smash for fighting games.

Oh, and for the record, not all gaming communities are as bad as fighting games, although most are pretty bad, and it's a shame. Competitive gaming is legitimately skillful and entertaining, but it will never get anywhere if people don't change their views on personal conduct and sportsmanship.

*Side Note* In Pokemon, we have very strict behavior standards (not surprising, considering it's a kids property). You can, in fact, enforce sportsmanship and behavior standards effectively, contrary to what many people here have been saying, and it's very very evident in the Pokemon TCG, which is considered to have the nicest, friendliest players of any competitive TCG by far (I say this like there are a lot Really, YuGiOh! and Magic are the only other 2 legit TCGs), not to mention the nicest environments to play in. There's got to be something to that.

 

[Linkshot]

Let's ask another question: Using basketball as an example, does the NBA let players get away with poor sportsmanship? The answer is no. Any major professional sport holds their players to certain standards as related to sportsmanship and ethics. I really see no reason this should hold true in Smash for fighting games.

Exactly the point of my "enforce some way of saying 'good game' at the end of a match, whether it be a handshake, the words, or both." Smash will never be accepted as a sport until this happens...but hey, maybe you guys don't want that, I don't know. I know people that love to keep communities shrunken to what they already know and get all pissy when it grows.

 

[Alex Strife]

very interesting reads

 

[The Good Doctor]

Honestly, my experience around here is that we are all pretty respectful for the most part. When someone is out of line, we let them know. I'm not turning this into a Brawl vs Melee topic, but the overall age of the average Melee player seems to be older. with age, comes self control.

 

[Alex Strife]

Its not necessarily true with brawl vs melee...i have seen some REALLY immature melee players and really mature brawl players.

Age I agree with...

anyways carry on.

 

[Bones0]

Exactly the point of my "enforce some way of saying 'good game' at the end of a match, whether it be a handshake, the words, or both." Smash will never be accepted as a sport until this happens...but hey, maybe you guys don't want that, I don't know. I know people that love to keep communities shrunken to what they already know and get all pissy when it grows.

The NBA gives all of their players million dollar contracts, and players are representing a bunch of sponsors. THAT is why they aren't allowed to be douche bags. It's done because a small minority of spectators get uppity about people not following their particular brand of sportsmanship, and companies don't want their brand name associated with something people dislike. Basketball games themselves don't have any rule about shaking hands. The ref will not call a foul on you for not helping your opponent off the ground. Similarly, tournaments shouldn't be mixing venue/conduct rules with game rules unless the one is interfering with the other (i.e. crowds heckling players mid-game).

 

[The Good Doctor]

Its not necessarily true with brawl vs melee...i have seen some REALLY immature melee players and really mature brawl players.

Age I agree with...

anyways carry on.

I agree 100%
I was just saying that with an older demographic, these things tend to happen less.

 

[Alex Strife]

well tbh in smash maybe but marvel...a lot of morons that are the same age as me lol

 

[The Good Doctor]

I was going to edit and rephrase, because I figured you would reply in such a way. I'm all with being respectful, but I honestly don't feel that I'm hurting the community by saying stuff like, "that's ****" or "that's gay."

If someone has that much of an issue with it, they can tell me themselves and I would most likely stop depending on the manner I'm asked to do so. When I say ****, I'm not thinking of the sexual act of forcing ones self upon another, nor am i thinking being gay is stupid when I say "that's gay."

Not saying these things though would not hurt the community though.

 

[Bing]

Okay so before I get into this Im going to say I am not for Unsportsmanlike conduct, swearing, etc.

With that being said, what Raen said, Is almost crap. The reason why we Melee players are so profound, is simply because the intensity levels are huge. The margin for error, enormous.

Lets compare Melee to The NBA to TCG

The most common characters used are Space animals, Character who require a high demand of attention, speed and precision. A fairly common action for these charcters, are short hop lasers, approaching lasers and waveshines. Now If we accidently side-b instead of regular b then forward or down-b wavedash. We accidently Illusion offstage, there goes a stock. and Since we only get 4, every.Life.Counts.

In the NBA, mistakes can be critical, dont get me wrong, and I can garutnee, players swear and become upset. And When they make a mistake, such a missed pass, drop ball, it can cost them. It can cost them two points, and in game where the average score is about 90, those 2 points are not crucial(Provided theres not like 4 seconds on the clock in a tight game).

In the Pokemon Trading Card Game, You need to yes be focused, and being thinking many steps ahead, and dont get me wrong, TCG games can be mentally exhausting and difficult(I also was into Pro Pokemon TCG for awhile). Now a mistake like, evolving something prematurely, placing the wrong pokemon out, benching the wrong thing, placing the wrong energy card somewhere, yes these can all be crucial mistakes, but they are never mistakes that cannot be fully corrected. its not like you take Staryu off the bench, place out and decide that was a bad move, and hand him a prize card.

Im sorry but comparing these things just shouldnt be done. Again I dont agree with some conduct, but at the same time. One thing people dont realize is that a Character choice and playstyle is a clear reflection of they themelves. So when you see a Ganon player getting angry and swearing like a mad man, its a safe assumption that persons personality is a bit aggressive. So we cant hinder who a person is. We do need people to have better self control. This is something I heard yesterday from BobbySeige when he was running the stream. He asked people who did commentary not to completely stop swearing, but to atleast monitor their choice of words. If your personality is the type who swears a lot, fine, but try to be a bit curteous with there speech.

I agree that certain statements should be taken out, such as "****" and "thats gay". But honestly if a person cant handle a few curse words, then maybe you shouldnt be attending these things. Its the outside world, be swear in the outside world. Mind you, for obvious reasons, at these events, the less the better.

Okay Im done for now.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

**** *****

 

[Morin0]

**** *****

That's a pretty **** post.

 

[Johnknight1]

Let me as you a question: When you go see a basketball game, do you expect the players and audience members to scream "****" all the time? Do you expect f-bombs every other sentence? Absolutely not. And if you did, then basketball would be a niche game that no one took seriously, and that very few people played.

Let's ask another question: Using basketball as an example, does the NBA let players get away with poor sportsmanship? The answer is no. Any major professional sport holds their players to certain standards as related to sportsmanship and ethics. I really see no reason this should hold true in Smash for fighting games.

You've obviously never sat courtside at an NBA game or heard audioclips of what the players say. They say every curse word, including gay. Many even use the word "f**" and "f**got." Just look up video of it. I just saw one earlier today, and Charles Barkley must have dropped the f bomb 50 times in a row, and Shaq cursed out a referee to a reporter and straight up responded to the question "you know this is on live TV?" with the phrase "I don't give a s***" like straight out of the Shawshank Redemption!

Also, there are fights every few months or so, and serious fights every few years in the NBA on the court. Pretty much, it sounds more or less the same as smash.

Still though, I haven't experienced a problem with "****" or "gay" much. People use it, but maybe once every once in a while. While that quirks me a bit, at least they aren't using it over and over again like it is a part of common English like a common word. That's when it bugs me, and I think crosses a line...

...or when it is used to hate on a specific group of people.

 

[Morin0]

Reminds me of this picture

Spoiler

 

[Xyzz]

*Side Note* In Pokemon, we have very strict behavior standards (not surprising, considering it's a kids property). You can, in fact, enforce sportsmanship and behavior standards effectively, contrary to what many people here have been saying, and it's very very evident in the Pokemon TCG, which is considered to have the nicest, friendliest players of any competitive TCG by far (I say this like there are a lot Really, YuGiOh! and Magic are the only other 2 legit TCGs), not to mention the nicest environments to play in. There's got to be something to that.

related: http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2012/03/12/pokemon-champion-loses-title-for-hotel-feces-flinging/ :D

on topic: I personally don't curse that much; far too relaxed for that. It doesn't bother me at all, if people do.
That Marvel/SF guy from the OP was really overstepping it, though. That wasn't cursing / politically incorrect language (or some stupid joke once in a while, made in good fun), but straight up verbal harrasment, and completely unacceptable.

 

[Roller]

This thread is ****.

 

[Bing]

Yeah Im a fairly calm yet outgoing person, but when I get into intense moments with smash, its a bit different. Im not me when Im in try-hard time

 

[Cherished Doll]

I like sayig **** !
Saying filthy is weird..
(Shoutouts to the homies)

 

[Alex Strife]

TBH you cannot control live crowds but yo ucan control commentators, interviewers/interviewees and anything like that.

 

[Bing]

Yes in terms of recording I suppose the language that is being used should be controlled, but like BobbySeige said, if you control the commentators freedoms of speech so much, you end up with awkward commentary.

Live Audience though good luck with that, what can you do really? Ask them to leave?

 

[Alex Strife]

no you do not.

Check the MLG ...

I am not saying to make them robots but professional commentary cannot have cursing...it just makes sponsors not want to work with you.

local stuff do what you want...but I am thinking about MAJOR events...so thats where my opinion comes from.

 

[Fierce Deku]

Some things to consider, especially for anyone who is indifferent or doesn’t think behavior like we’re talking about is causing any issue. Sorry it's so long:

A lot of the damage goes unnoticed:
[COLLAPSE=" "]The hit the community is taking from offensive behavior like what we're discussing is often invisible. When behavior like this makes someone decide not to join the community, decide to leave it, or just become less invested in it, more often than not they’ll just go away (this also applies to venue hosts/sponsors). We don’t get a memo attributing the drop in attendance/lack of growth to anything. While you and your friends know that you don't mean to take literal **** lightly or demean gay people, other people don't know that for sure, and even some of the people who do still find it unpleasant when people are shouting "****" and "gay (in a negative context)" as often as they sometimes do in these communities.[/COLLAPSE]A lot of people who do take offense don’t speak out:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Secondly, it’s very easy to downplay how often these behaviors are taken negatively. Using words like these as gaming slang is a "group think" situation. Many people aren't comfortable expressing that they’re not ok with the norm, and they pretend they're more at peace with it that they really are. If you openly discourage an offensive behavior, the context changes to where it's ok to take issue with it and more people than you might expect may start speaking out against it.[/COLLAPSE]Discouraging offensiveness is "low-risk, high-return":
[COLLAPSE=" "]Third, it seems to me like discouraging this kind of stuff can be very beneficial and relatively easy. Contrary to what the idiot from the article linked in the OP was saying, being offensive is not a deep-seeded part of most people’s experience. Plenty of people say "****" every three sentences but they're mostly just doing it because everyone else does. It's not hard to change, I remember when people used to say "owned", then it became "pwned", and now I don't really hear it anymore. Like has been said already, lead by example and use alternatives to offensive terms. A lot of people will be understanding and try to clean up their act if a TO just makes a simple announcement at the beginning to try and keep the language clean, or gives a friendly reminder to try to cool it with all the **** references or something. If someone is being severely inappropriate and unresponsive to the TO, they’re probably not going to be missed by anyone in the venue if the TO does end up having to kick them out.[/COLLAPSE]Doing nothing about it definitely has a risk/negative return:
[COLLAPSE=" "]On the other extreme, imagine someone who has been literally ***** or has a friend who has been ***** (I could look up statistics on how many people have a close friend or relative who’s been ***** but I don’t feel like making myself depressed right now). I don’t care how many people tell them they “don’t mean it that way”, the person will never be comfortable in a room full of people shouting **** every two minutes. **** has a very specific and horrible meaning, and that meaning will pop into a lot of people's minds whenever they hear the word regardless of context, whereas people using it as gamer slang can easily say a different word and still get the exact same idea across. Why make some people uncomfortable when you can easily say want you want to with some other word.

As far as using gay as a negative term, anyone who isn’t actually prejudiced really aught to know better. The slang meaning of **** is at least derived from the literal meaning, but taking a word which refers to a group of people and then using it as an insult is just offensive whether the person saying it means it as such or not. That use of the word gay just needs to die from our culture in general. It doesn't matter if you don't mean it like that, it will subtly reinforce the idea that it's ok to look down on gay people. One can claim it doesn't have that effect on themself or their friends and hopefully they'd be right, but get a large enough group of people and it will have that effect on someone, and on our culture at large. People who still use gay as a negative term should step back and get some perspective, grow up, be responsible, and be proud to do so.[/COLLAPSE]You need to keep your sponsors happy:
[COLLAPSE=" "]Another thing to keep in mind is that there is always a third party involved with the tournament community. Any event which can't fit into someone's house is going to be held at some public venue. Be it a store, school campus, church, hotel, whatever, basically every possible group has a public image to maintain and is not going to like offensive behavior running rampant on their venue (and really out community should be concerned about this for the same reasons they are). Larger events in particular also have the same deal with those who sponsor them financially. Any TO can tell you how vital it is to keep your venue owner/sponsors feeling positive about their dealings with you.[/COLLAPSE]Freedom of speech =/= freedom to be a bad person:
[COLLAPSE=" "]As far as restricting what people say, I think people can sometimes have kind of a warped perspective on freedom of speech; Yes people have a right to their freedom of speech, but you also have a right to do something about it when people are being a**holes. Exercise your own freedom of speech and tell them it's not ok for them to act like that. You can potentially go too far with it yes, but remember that no one should have the freedom to make things miserable for the people around them. If you don’t think it’s right to use your power as TO to kick someone out for saying a particular offensive thing, then don’t do so, but you should feel no reservations about telling them from one person to another that you think they should stop. If you're a TO, stay calm and friendly when talking about it to mild offenders/first time offenders, give warnings, and be professional about it, and the attendees at large will see you as the "good guy" in the situation and will most likely support any bans you do have to doll out.[/COLLAPSE]Making rules about offensive behavior:
[COLLAPSE=" "]To get to the original question, I think a sort of blanket rule like what people have mentioned earlier in the thread would be great. We don't have to go so far as to mention specific words, but if we make it clear that we’re discouraging offensive behavior, personal attacks, sexism, language which is derogatory towards a particular group of people, ect., it really helps remind people that they're not just hanging out in their basement but are interacting with new people and a community which has a reputation to uphold. It also makes people who are worried they'll see a lot of this kind of behavior understand that the TOs and such are actually on their side. If the MBR/BBR/Unity ruleset committee made a rule about this, and kind of made a big show of announcing it and spreading the word on why it's important, it would set a new standard for people and give TOs and individual players a strong backing on the subject so they can feel comfortable dealing with issues that arise.

As far as enforcing sportsmanship, I don't think we should go so far as to make handshaking part of the ruleset or anything like that as it's overly controlling and makes it hard to tell real sportsmanship from people just trying to follow the rule. From what I've seen people are for the most part fairly sportsmanlike right now, and things like throwing someone else's controller on the floor are already sufficiently looked down upon. Encouraging good sportsmanship is good but I don't think adding a written rule about it beyond maybe an offhand mention in a don't-be-offensive-rule is necessary.[/COLLAPSE]Offensive language in a nutshell; it’s not worth dragging down a whole community just so people can shout "****" and "gay" all the time instead of using an easy alternative. You might not find it offensive but some people will, so there's definitely a benefit to avoiding those particular words, and there's really no loss. If you discourage offensive behavior and put some other lingo in its place I don’t think a lot of people will resist. Widely discourage it via respectable sources like rulesets and the MBR/BBR/Unity committee, and avoiding offensive behavior will start to become the standard people aspire to, not something TOs force people to do. It’s a neutral change for people who aren't offended by that kind of talk, and a positive change for people who are; that isn't a hard sell to make.

 

[Linkshot]

That was lovely, Fierce Deku.
I hope other people that agree with you will acknowledge it instead of silently nodding and letting the thread fall to the abyss.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Regulation of cursing is generally absurd, and people should grow up. People curse. All the time. Get over it.

As for conduct regulations, I doubt many people would be opposed to ejecting people for violence, threats of violence, of implied threats of violence like hurling things like controllers.

As for verbal harassment, hate speech, etc., this is more of a gray area. Smashers frequently say things like "Stop camping, it's gay." This could be construed as hate speech against gay people, and I feel like people shouldn't use "gay" like this, but it's so common that ejecting people for it would be a little extreme. Also, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between common trash talk and actual harassment. Generally I would oppose ejecting people for anything but really, truly aggressive harassment or hate speech.

I think the Smash community should generally try to be self-policing in these matters. If someone says something that's offensive, let them know it's not cool. The reason people shout things like "Get *****!" is because it's seen as acceptable by their friends, and it's common. I don't think we need a "zero tolerance" policy, ejecting people and such, but rather we need to create an environment where people feel saying these things will cause them to be looked down upon.

I also think it's worth noting that the Smash community is actually pretty tame compared to many gaming communities. I used to play Halo competitively and, as with most FPS games, many of the players are incredibly aggressive, obnoxious, and offensive. While the occasional Melee player is shouting things like "Get *****!" in many FPS games this behaviour is the norm.

 

[ShroudedOne]

When did homosexual people co-opt the word gay as theirs and theirs alone? I firmly remember that word meaning "happy," at one point. I'm not trying to raise a fuss, I'm genuinely curious (and playing devil's advocate). Why should I be prohibited from saying something due to someone else's opinions on it?

I also think that people are far too hung up on the meanings of individual words, and "not offending people," rather than the message being conveyed by the collection of words, together. But that's just my opinion, anyways.

Fierce Deku's post is good and makes logical sense, nonetheless.

 

[SFA Smiley]

When did homosexual people co-opt the word gay as theirs and theirs alone? I firmly remember that word meaning "happy," at one point. I'm not trying to raise a fuss, I'm genuinely curious (and playing devil's advocate). Why should I be prohibited from saying something due to someone else's opinions on it?

I also think that people are far too hung up on the meanings of individual words, and "not offending people," rather than the message being conveyed by the collection of words, together. But that's just my opinion, anyways.

Fierce Deku's post is good and makes logical sense, nonetheless.

This.

10applepies

 

[Shai Hulud]

When did homosexual people co-opt the word gay as theirs and theirs alone? I firmly remember that word meaning "happy," at one point. I'm not trying to raise a fuss, I'm genuinely curious (and playing devil's advocate). Why should I be prohibited from saying something due to someone else's opinions on it?

It's not known exactly when "gay" came to mean "homosexual." There are a few sources using it this way from the early 20th century but it wasn't widespread until the 1960s. As for whether homosexuals "co-opted" the term I really don't think it happened like that. Terms to describe homosexuals were used mainly by heterosexuals, derisively. There was the clinical term homosexual and various slang terms such as queer, f*ggot, and gay, which had varying degrees of negative connotation. "Queer" and "f*ggot" were considered highly offensive, and "homosexual" was considered clinical and implicative of mental illness due to the history of the term, so the only common, acceptable term left was "gay." I'm not sure when "gay" became THE accepted term for describing homosexuals, but I believe it was relatively recently, after the word was already being used.

If you're genuinely interested in the history of the word, the article on "gay" on Wikipedia has a nice summary.

As far as why you shouldn't say some things, you're not prohibited, except maybe in certain Smash tournaments, but I would be very surprised if they started ejecting people for this reason. On the other hand, you might come across as a jack*ss if you just go around saying whatever you feel like, regardless of how it might affect other people. And it seems pretty selfish to put your own need to use certain words, which is minimal to nonexistent, over the needs of others not to be shamed, mocked, and embarrassed.

By the way, it's amusing you think the term "gay" was co-opted by gay people. If anyone co-opted it, it was those who started using the word to mean "lame." It's also worth noting that the word you want to keep using, with the connotation for which you want to use it (lame), would not have this connotation if the word had never been used to describe homosexuals. The origin of this present meaning of "lame" is tied directly to negative images of gay people. Gay people were seen as lame, weak, girly, effeminate, etc., and it's not hard to see how this meaning carried over into this present usage of the word.

I also think that people are far too hung up on the meanings of individual words, and "not offending people," rather than the message being conveyed by the collection of words, together. But that's just my opinion, anyways.

This is a common viewpoint of those who are unaffected by the meaning of such words (white, straight males generally). If you were gay you might see this differently.

I've never understood this position, anyway. Racial/gender/sexual epithets are very hurtful to large groups of people, and it costs you nothing to not say them. Why persist in saying things that offend people, when it costs you nothing not to?

 

[Linkshot]

I've never understood this position, anyway. Racial/gender/sexual epithets are very hurtful to large groups of people, and it costs you nothing to not say them. Why persist in saying things that offend people, when it costs you nothing not to?

My guess would be that they feel keeping their individual personality and speech patterns is more important than accommodating for the sake of not hurting somebody else's feelings. There are people out there that feel if you're hurt by a word, you just need to suck it up and get over it because the word isn't an action. In my opinion, it's very shallow thinking. Not everybody is that tough, and not everybody can avoid attaching a word to a memory.

 

[The Ben]

It isn't about people within the community, it's about how people outside the community perceive it. I know what Smashers mean when they use gay as an insult, but that doesn't mean a gay person looking to get into the game wouldn't see it as a barrier to entry. I'm straight and that word still makes me feel uncomfortable. The point is that the community is completely unrepresentable to society at large.

What if the shoe was on the other foot and gamers were an oppressed minority?

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's not known exactly when "gay" came to mean "homosexual." There are a few sources using it this way from the early 20th century but it wasn't widespread until the 1960s. As for whether homosexuals "co-opted" the term I really don't think it happened like that. Terms to describe homosexuals were used mainly by heterosexuals, derisively. There was the clinical term homosexual and various slang terms such as queer, f*ggot, and gay, which had varying degrees of negative connotation. "Queer" and "f*ggot" were considered highly offensive, and "homosexual" was considered clinical and implicative of mental illness due to the history of the term, so the only common, acceptable term left was "gay." I'm not sure when "gay" became THE accepted term for describing homosexuals, but I believe it was relatively recently, after the word was already being used.

If you're genuinely interested in the history of the word, the article on "gay" on Wikipedia has a nice summary.

Ok. I'll look for it.

As far as why you shouldn't say some things, you're not prohibited, except maybe in certain Smash tournaments, but I would be very surprised if they started ejecting people for this reason. On the other hand, you might come across as a jack*ss if you just go around saying whatever you feel like, regardless of how it might affect other people. And it seems pretty selfish to put your own need to use certain words, which is minimal to nonexistent, over the needs of others not to be shamed, mocked, and embarrassed.

Isn't it similarly selfish to expect there to be rules in place so that you won't by chance be offended by something someone might happen to say? There are words that make me feel uncomfortable, and I'm not going to go out of my way to be offensive. That isn't what I'm saying. But should I restrict someone from expressing themselves in a way that they like to (within reason, because violent/harassing messages as a form of expression should not be tolerated [i.e. saying things with the intent to harm]), because I, or someone else, could get offended/hurt?

By the way, it's amusing you think the term "gay" was co-opted by gay people. If anyone co-opted it, it was those who started using the word to mean "lame." It's also worth noting that the word you want to keep using, with the connotation for which you want to use it (lame), would not have this connotation if the word had never been used to describe homosexuals. The origin of this presenct meaning of "lame" is tied directly to negative images of gay people. Gay people were seen as lame, weak, girly, effeminate, etc., and it's not hard to see how this meaning carried over into this present usage of the word.

If they didn't co-opt it, then why not refer to yourselves as something else with the same meaning? Like lollipops? Or fuzzycats?

I do take your point that there is some connection between the pervasive opinion of gay people (or what was the pervasive opinion, for a while), and what the word means now (lame, girly, weak, effeminate, etc), and when the word is used to denote something as lame, I don't doubt that there are people who make the direct association between gay people and gay being lame. But that isn't what the majority of the gaming community who uses that word intends it to be taken as. Or perhaps they do. But I think the community (Smash, specifically) would be a lot less accepting of people who are gay, if that were the case. And they're not.

This is a common viewpoint of those who are unaffected by the meaning of such words (white, straight males generally). If you were gay you might see this differently.

I've never understood this position, anyway. Racial/gender/sexual epithets are very hurtful to large groups of people, and it costs you nothing to not say them. Why persist in saying things that offend people, when it costs you nothing not to?

Black, straight male, actually.

I agree and disagree, here. Yes, epithets are very hurtful and harmful to varying groups of people, and it costs no one anything to simply stop saying them. But again, the reason why these words have the power and impact they do is due to the messages that accompany them. The best example I have of this is the infamous "n-word." It was used as a hurtful, derogatory word towards black people, a conduit (one of many) for their hatred of the race. Now, black people use it among themselves, with a sense of common bonding, almost. At the very least, it's kind of become synonymous to "brother." (In certain contexts, obviously.)

My point is that words are only vessels for the meanings that you want to get across with them. I could use the same word in two different contexts, and you'd interpret it in two different ways. Which is my point: the words themselves are never the problem, and trying to tell people to stop saying words (while it costs them nothing to stop saying that word) is sort of...odd.

Perhaps the words are red flags as to latent hate of different groups? I don't know, honestly. I'm mostly playing devil's, and I think that as a whole, the attitudes representatives of the community take towards certain things (look at Genesis 2: Hbox vs Armada, volume on, for my point), reflect VERY POORLY on us, and should be stopped, as well as intolerant behavior of groups/playstyles/people/etc.

I just don't think "words" have any importance.

I'm sorry if this seems all over the place. My mind is fuzzy.

 

[Dark Hart]

Did you guys know the first time faagott was used as a derogatory term was in the 30s and 40s? Black people would call black gays ******s

Gay and **** mean something different in the videogame community

Words

Get over them

They're not magic

 

[Linkshot]

Words are actually pretty magical. They can have different meanings based on context and tone. They can evoke emotions most actions cannot. If words weren't magical, would we really be having a debate over their power?

 

[Fregadero]

When did homosexual people co-opt the word gay as theirs and theirs alone? I firmly remember that word meaning "happy," at one point. I'm not trying to raise a fuss, I'm genuinely curious (and playing devil's advocate). Why should I be prohibited from saying something due to someone else's opinions on it?

I also think that people are far too hung up on the meanings of individual words, and "not offending people," rather than the message being conveyed by the collection of words, together. But that's just my opinion, anyways.

Fierce Deku's post is good and makes logical sense, nonetheless.

Players should be able to talk how they want.

Going a little too far in this line of reasoning, words don't mean anything. The only importance they have is applied meaning we give them. The word '****' could mean ice cream in BoatModeSpeak. This argument is kind of pointless though.

I absolutely agree with enforcing some censorship on the commentators though.

 

[Bing]

Just saying, when a gamer says that was gay. Like you get gimped and say that was gay, how could you translate that to that was happy? So the argument of gay meaning happy is invalid

 

[The Ben]

Players should be able to talk how they want.

No they shouldn't. They shouldn't be able to say or do things that cause measurable damage to other people. If what you say causes someone either social harm and it isn't true or causes them some amount of financial loss you should not ever be allowed to say it. When what you say either causes a player to no longer want to be part of the community or causes investors to lose money you've crossed the line.

The word '****' could mean ice cream in BoatModeSpeak. This argument is kind of pointless though.

If words have no understood meaning then how has anyone ever been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

 

[Fregadero]

Weathers great here, how about you?

Seriously though, you misunderstood what I was saying. Words do have understood meaning, and thats the point. They only have meaning because we give it to them, putting the letters F, I, S, and H together in that order, it doesn't mean smelly water breathing creature with fins and gills to everyone. But this is a petty counter argument that I don't actually agree with, but I like to argue and I love linguistics.

Anyway, I personally am not a fan of use of profanity at events, and especially on anything that is recorded. Commentators and interviewers/ees should be held to more formal language requirements. Yeah, I drop **** and gay from time to time too, but it doesn't mean everyone should be running around yelling it. We've got kids walking around with there parents at some tournaments, and I'd imagine that it may bother some of the kids, and most of the parents.

But, try controlling the language of a room of 100 people, 90% of which are 15-25, playing THE BEST ****ING GAME (melee ofc). No violence rules are a no brainer, but trying to implement language rules on an informal venue, 99% of which are paying to be at without a return of their money? Most of us play multiple fighting games and I can see everyone but the die-hards hopping ship.

These games are old. Our newest installment is 5 years old, and all 3 still have active communities of decent size. I know I really don't want melee to die, and this type of censorship is a great way to kill it.

TL;DR The language is a problem, but one we can't do a whole lot about. Censor the recorded stuff, give out warnings to people abusing it. But, censor the whole community and you kill the game.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Just saying, when a gamer says that was gay. Like you get gimped and say that was gay, how could you translate that to that was happy? So the argument of gay meaning happy is invalid

My point is that words have no meaning aside from the context we give them, and that the same word can mean different things in different situations/times. So, we shouldn't be getting so caught up on the word itself.

 

[Linkshot]

I know I really don't want melee to die, and this type of censorship is a great way to kill it.

I'm a fan of Melee, too, but if it has to die because the majority of players refuse to hold their tongue, then so be it.

 

[The Ben]

TL;DR The language is a problem, but one we can't do a whole lot about. Censor the recorded stuff, give out warnings to people abusing it. But, censor the whole community and you kill the game.

Nope. As a business major I can safely say you're 100% wrong. People making a community look bad are what we'd call "toxic customers". The reason game stores kick out the fat neckbearded guy with the Cheeto stained shirt emitting the smell of a fish carcass while bad mouthing any franchise that isn't his personal preference is because he keeps away more potential customers and money than he himself gives the store. The same principle applies here. Not only should we not tolerate the people who use charged language and eject them from events for it, we should also not tolerate the support structure for it. Sure we'd lose a few big names, but we'd have such a larger appeal that we'd get enough new players to more than make up for it.