Should the Timer be Set to 10 Minutes?

[AlphaZealot]

10 is better, AZ just wants to use the URC ruleset he created where it's 8 min, ridiculous stages, and mk banned.

How about I want to use what nearly every single US tournament has used for Brawl since Brawl's release, literally thousands of tournaments. You want to pretend the 8 minute timer is somehow my doing when it has been around for years and you can't name a SINGLE national tournament that hasn't used it. This has nothing to do with the URC, stop crying because MK is banned at tournaments that use the URC ruleset, this is simply about what makes the most sense, and increasing the timer just to accommodate <1% of matches and not even actually solving the problem since time outs would still occur is unnecessary.

AZ's statement about those matches "going to time anyway" is false.

When they looked at the data from MLG, some matches still had TWO stocks that timed out, for a whopping pace of 1 stock every 4 minutes (best case if that stock is lost right at the 8 minute mark), so even in that situation 10 would still be to little time.

From personal experience, I would not try to time people out if I saw 4 minutes left as opposed to 2 minutes for example, because it would be much harder to accomplish and I would be risking victory by going out of my way to try to do something that was unlikely to happen.

If you have the lead and are camping in a game that is universally agreed upon that defensive options outweigh offensive options, with the best character in the game and planking on your side, I don't really understand how you are 'risking' your victory by camping an extra 2 minutes to get to 10 minutes, especially if you could camp effectively without losing the lead and get to the 8 minute mark (and win!).

But that doesn't even matter: what you would do isn't what everyone would do, and time outs occur in matches where you aren't playing.

When we reach a point where the timer is interfering with the natural pace of a game, bureaucracy is interfering with results. Not good.

Over 99% of matches finish in 8 minutes. Something is occurring in those <1% of matches that I would easily say is far from the "natural pace" of the game.

For you and anyone else meatriding Japan's ruleset, keep in mind that they don't have as much time constraints as we do because they often run things like single elimation brackets, Bo1 sets in pools and loser's brackets and such. 10 minute matches isn't a big deal at all when you play 1/3 or 1/2 of the tournament sets you would in the west.

I would be cool with doing 10 minutes and single elimination brackets and Bo1 etc. If the bracket format allows for way more time then sure!

---

I can't grasp how though, after coming off yet another national that ran over schedule and late, people want to allow matches to go to 10 minutes, thus increasing the potential length of tournaments that already struggle to finish by 25%, or the equivalent of 2.5 hours for every 10 hours played.

 

[Tesh]

AZ are you even going to address the fact that the 1% stat is horribly misleading? I can go on youtube and find 3 high level timeouts where the loser just SDed or did something reckless within the last minute to try to avoid being timed out.

Throwing that stat around makes you look kind of ignorant imo. Especially since it doesn't take alot of reasoning to understand its off.

 

[AlphaZealot]

AZ are you even going to address the fact that the 1% stat is horribly misleading? I can go on youtube and find 3 high level timeouts where the loser just SDed or did something reckless within the last minute to try to avoid being timed out.

It is not horribly misleading at all. It is a stat taken from over 3,000 individual games. The margin of error on a sample size that large is minuscule: most national polls for politics for example have a margin of error of 3%, and that is typically on a sample size of 1,000 people.

Could a game here or there end because someone SD'd their stocks? Sure, but when looking at the 3,000+ games that ended regularly within the time limit it is well within the margin of error to say that 1% is the typical timeout rate. Actually, less than 1%. For every game you find on youtube where someone SD's to avoid a timeout, I can find 100 matches where the game ends normally.

Now if you want to get a study done that looks at 3,000 other matches from a series of tournaments with every single match and outcome scored then please, go ahead. But then and only then can you refute the 1% statistic - because that statistic is based on actual recorded data.

 

[Player-1]

A game here or there? That's what MOST people do, SD their stocks or just no contest it. I think the thing that happens most of the time, though, is that people just go like "hey, I'm about to get timed out, I have to now just rush in blindly and trying the most risky stuff since that's the only possible way I can win" and then end up losing within the last minute or so which definitely isn't the natural pace of the game.

 

[Tesh]

It is misleading. You are using that 1% stat to imply that the timer is only affecting the outcome of 1% of matches or less when you KNOW thats not the case. Its not a game "here or there", MOST high profile high level timeouts occur that way because anyone about to lose will recognize they have to try ANYTHING to win in that last minute.

If you had a stat showing which matches went to 7 minutes or more, that would be alot more usable, but touting that 1% doesn't really shed light on most of the issue at all.

 

[z00ted]

8 minute timer.

I can't even imagine tournaments with a ten minute timer.
I also know for a fact that people would still get timed out almost as regularly as an eight minute timer.

All these rules are trying to be created to accommodate with Metaknight.
Just ban him.

 

[Tesh]

If MK can time you out with 19 ledge grabs during 8 minutes, 2 more minutes isn't going to make him go over 35. Seems kind of pointless.

There are better ways to make the game less campy.

 

[The Ben]

Let's make this a game of skill but not have to learn how to play against campers :D

 

[AlphaZealot]

So what happens when high profile time outs happen with a 10 minute timer? Extend it again? By the way it will still happen with 10 minutes...

 

[Mew2King]

wait a minute, if less than 1% of matches go to time anyway, then what is the big problem of FIXING (or GREATLY IMPROVING) those 1% of matches? Nothing.

your bad logic is so annoying, if someone times someone out with a 10 minute timer, they DESERVE to win, because doing that is much harder than it is with 8 minutes. I should know. There's nothing we can do to make the game perfect, but we can IMPROVE IT GREATLY. Increasing 8 minutes to 10 minutes is a huge improvement, period.

 

[Conviction]

Why not 12?

 

[Mew2King]

12 is actually better but no one would agree to it. We should follow Japan's example (superior ruleset/players) and use 10 minutes.

AZ you're absolutely ridiculous and a hypocrite to say something like "only 1% of matches go to time" but then say "we could potentially increase tournaments by 25%" WHEN IT COULD HIGH CHANCE IN FACT -- SHORTEN -- TOURNAMENTS, because it would DISCOURAGE players from going out of their way to time someone out as the easiest way to win the match. You contradict yourself so much with those INCREDIBLY biased statements. You can't just:
1) say 1% of matches go to time
2) ignore how it's a HUGE IMPROVEMENT to the matches that DO go to time (1%, as you say)
3) ignore how IT COULD SHORTEN MATCHES
4) assume it ONLY/ALWAYS lengthens matches WHILE ALSO ASSUMING EVERY SINGLE MATCH GOES TO THE MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF TIME, EVEN THOUGH YOU SAID ONLY 1% GO TO TIME ANYWAY

nothing you say adds up, and anyone with a brain will be able to see the INSANE amount of bias in your arguments. It would be great for convincing people that aren't paying attention at all though, but it won't work on smart people.

 

[Tesh]

So M2K, do you support Bo1 sets and single elimination brackets? Japan is superior right?

 

[The Ben]

Even if it did shorten matches a TO still has to account for the possibility of every match going to time meaning TOs need to account for longer tournaments when scheduling.

 

[AlphaZealot]

A tournament bracket can only run as quickly as the slowest match per round-since future matches rely on the results of previous matches. A match going to 10 minutes will ripple through the bracket-obviously 25% is worst case, but it will have an effect.

I don't buy your poorly conceived theory that games will actually be quicker when the time limit is extended-there are people in this thread arguing the natural pace of the game requires lasts longer than 8 minutes after all.

 

[Mew2King]

First off, 8 minutes probably IS too short for Brawl, and 10 minutes would be better imo

But 2ndly, you can't just pick and choose points that are convenient to you or your argument

You said that 1% of matches go to time, right? So this is what you believe, so be consistent with it.

If you believe 1% of matches go to time, then why do you say something like this?

\

I can't grasp how though, after coming off yet another national that ran over schedule and late, people want to allow matches to go to 10 minutes, thus increasing the potential length of tournaments that already struggle to finish by 25%, or the equivalent of 2.5 hours for every 10 hours played.

THIS above statement, which you bolded, assumes that EVERY MATCH (not 1% of the matches, because if it was 1% of the matches then it would only be increased by A FRACTION OF A %, not 25%) WILL GO TO TIME, WHICH IS LUDICROUS, ESPECIALLY WITH HOW HARD AND LITTLE DIFFERENCE IT WOULD BE. THAT'S UNBELIEVABLE THAT YOU WOULD SAY THAT.

That's a 100 times difference than you saying that 1% of the matches go to time. Someone who wasn't paying attention might not notice that, but it's really obvious. How could you use such a biased argument? That doesn't even make sense. You can't say only 1% of matches go to time, THEN WRITE A WORST CASE SCENARIO WHERE EVERY MATCH GOES TO TIME

 

[Tesh]

^ It is wrong. Just as we all know the 1% stat is bull****, we know that other assumption is also nonsense. The timer affects the way we play because it has and always will be a way of determining the winner. If you are behind you have to approach. If I'm down a stock with 3 minutes on the clock I'm going to be a little more hasty than if I'm down a stock with 7 or 5 minutes. Increasing the timer is going to slow down the gameplan of any patient, smart player even if they aren't gunning for a timeout.

As far as the "natural pace" of the game, thats pretty subjective. That pace is exactly what the ruleset causes. A different ruleset will cause a different "natural pace". If you play 1 stock 3 minute with food, the game has a different "natural pace" and if you play 99 stocks, no timer there is a different "natural pace".

 

[AllyKnight]

Apex ran late because of scheduling and setups problems, not because of the game itself. You're wrong here AZ.

 

[Chuee]

So M2K, do you support Bo1 sets and single elimination brackets? Japan is superior right?

This is false lol......

 

[Vinnie]

*didn't read any of the posts here*

ANTi and I practiced a few days ago; no matches went to time or even close to it, even when I tried. The longest match of the night was like 4 minutes.

edit: forgot to say "with the Japanese ruleset" /derp

 

[Gea]

Even then, if matches are going on for too long, wouldn't the better solution be two stocks with a similar time we are running with three stocks currently? Good luck convincing people that two stock matches are superior, but it would reduce the amount of time that sets take drastically.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Ally: I'm just saying if we can't get 8 mins right will 10 mins make it even worse? I think there is a strong possibility.

 

[Mew2King]

and your arugment is... if 100% of matches go to time, it could increase the tournament by 25%

even though, as you said, realistically, 1% of matches go to time, so it more realistically increases tournaments by 0.25%, which is nothing

this is also assuming (which is not good to do) that this will INCREASE the time tournament takes

I would argue it would SHORTEN tournaments, because it would HEAVILY DISCOURAGE people going out of their way to time someone out, since winning that way will become much harder.

You can do what you want, and keep 8 minutes if you want, I don't care. 8 minutes is easier for me anyway, I just think 10 is clearly better.

 

[Ussi]

I wish 9 minutes was an option :/ i would have voted 9 minutes.

 

[Kewkky]

I'd take a timer increase. 9 mins, 10 mins, I'm okay as long as it's extended. All I can say to argue will sound like heavy theorycrafting, so lemme just say I agree with all the other YES votes.

 

[Jmorsch]

Why are some people so hell bent on 3min per stock? Was that the reasoning why melee is 8mins? 2mins per stock? Why is 9mins superior to 10?

 

[Kewkky]

Melee is much more fast-paced than Brawl is though, 8mins works find with 4 stocks there because of the nature of the game, not so much in Brawl even when we reduce the number of stocks to 3.

 

[danieljosebatista]

While you're at it, unban Metaknight. If anything the APEX Brawl results show that the ban was a stupid idea. Seriously, how did M2K lose to a japanese Rob player? Oh yeah, Americans are too busy johning about a character to learn how to actually fight him. ****, it's obvious that the ban makes no sense at this point. But then again wtf do I know, I'm not a serious Brawl player I play Melee

 

[Life]

@djb M2K lost due to a lack of matchup knowledge, which according to people who have watched the vid (I haven't because I don't care to) is supposedly pretty obvious from the way he played it.

I like how we're all trying to do statistical analysis when we don't have any data aside from AZ's.

 

[Tesh]

He beat Tearbear too. Though I guess the entire U.S. could sorta claim lack of great R.O.B. exp.

 

[Player-1]

tearbear also lost to Stingers back at an MLG btw

 

[Tesh]

Tearbear also lost to Will at Apex btw

 

[Mew2King]

it's half of what everyone said. Idk the MU well is true, and it is also true that american's whine about MK too much instead of getting good at the MU (except VERY FEW players)

 

[Cassio]

Everyone is missing the point. Rob is top tier.

Why are some people so hell bent on 3min per stock? Was that the reasoning why melee is 8mins? 2mins per stock? Why is 9mins superior to 10?

This is true yes. 2 minutes per stock was why its 8 minutes.

 

[deepseadiva]

Cassio, I love you so much.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I wish 9 minutes was an option :/ i would have voted 9 minutes.

Me too. 10 seems like a weird number for the amount of stocks we have. Besides, a lot can be done with an extra 3600 frames

 

[Vinnie]

mfw

 

[Yikarur]

everyone should listen to Mew2King
10 minutes da bess
Europe uses it too (at least more and more are adopting it)

 

[Deleted member]

Increase the timer for 10 minute timeouts and sets that never end? No thanks...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why do people complain about 10 minutes being too much for 3 stocks but are OK with 8? If you think the game takes to long YOU SHOULD REDUCE THE NUMBER OF STOCKS, NOT THE TIMER.

People really need to emancipate themselves mentally and stop being tools to the tyrant AZ.