Should you be able to look at your opponent's controller or yell loudly to gain an advantage?

[Mew2King]

and, if you're allowed to do this, are you allowed to yell to mess ice climber chain grabs up?

for specific examples, i know that within the past year, ive had ally/vinnie look at my DI before on tech chases or grabs, and i know hbox has done this to drpp in the comments of the zenith 2013 videos (correct me if im wrong?) so that's 3 different instance in both games all to gain an advantage. that pretty much makes it a guaranteed follow up, or much easier than otherwise which I think can be a bit dumb. I know MANY other players that have done this though, so don't think I'm only talking about them, but many players use this tactic of looking at the other person's controller for DI and such.

the 2nd question i have is should it be okay to yell to mess up ice climber chain grabs? I know that once when mikehaze and hylian fought before (marth vs ICs), he yelled really loudly so that it was harder to chain grab. Then there was a rule in effect "the mikehaze rule" where you are not allowed to do that. So about a year ago (actually less) I know that when vinnie went to cali (around vinnie's prime also; late 2012) mikehaze has put his hands up in the air to signal to the crowd to yell and mess up the chain grab. It worked. Apparantly vinnie couldn't concentrate to his best ability and he dropped grabs and ended up losing games he may not have lost otherwise due to this. I often consider doing this but I never do because it feels like cheating, but if the community votes that it should be okay, then I will start to do this in the future.

The 3rd question I have is that there was a new brawl ice climber stalling infinite, where you can chain grab the opponent to kill %, then just grab release them, then you regrab with the other climber, and just hold them in place. You can stall 8 minutes easily with this tactic, and this should obviously be banned under stalling, but we need a more technical way to define it (such as how there is a ledge grab limit number), or else it's just broken.

The 3rd one needs to be banned no matter what. It literally takes no skill, a 5 year old kid can do this consistently with no practice, you can be 29 frames off and still do it consistently and if you're on the same stock as them you have a guaranteed win.

These are 3 questions I have, and yes the reason I am asking is because those that are not in effect, I will take advantage of them myself. I personally think all 3 should be banned for all fairness, but as a competitive player I will still play to win if the rules are not currently fair. This is why I am addressing all 3 of these issues now.

 

[Keitaro]

For the first one, I think it should be allowed. If anything you can mash all directions to surprise your opponent if you know they are doing this. So there is a way around it.

For the 2nd one, I can't imagine much being done to fix that. You may just have to get headphones because at big events people will scream very often. Obviously the player you are fighting should not be allowed to scream in your ear though.

The 3rd one can be considered stalling easily. If an Ice Climber player does that for over a minute I think it could easily be considered stalling which is against the rules. So it is allowed, but can't be used for long periods of time like Jiggly's Pound stall or Peach butt attack stall in Melee.

 

[infiniteV115]

1st should be allowed imo. You always have the option of mashing or making the buttons on your controller non-visible to your opponent

2nd should definitely not be allowed. Doing things out-of-game solely to distract the opponent (or, if you're in the crowd, a player) such as yelling loudly to throw off your opponent are not part of the game. As for chanting "mess it up!" like at E4UC...
Well, on that note I guess you could make a rule that entails that you're not allowed to cheer against/jeer a certain player, you're only allowed to cheer for a player. Chanting 'mess it up' is clearly the former. I suppose the same would apply to booing. It's not just a matter of distraction but also a matter of poor sportsmanship that shouldn't be allowed at tournaments.

3rd should be banned. Clearly stalling. Again, I don't know what exact rule you could make for this...
Maybe something like...if every char dies to a complete CG before 150% (I imagine DDD would die to a fresh usmash before 150%, and he lives the longest vertically. Maybe DK dies later horizontally if he gets hit across the stage with an fsmash? idk) or w/e % it may be, you're not allowed to continue the CG for more than 10 seconds after that % has been reached?
Or maybe just a time limit on the chaingrab/hobble. It can't last for more than 90 seconds, maybe? idk

 

[etecoon]

1. I have no strong opinion on either way, I'm not sure it's something you can prove is being done in most cases however so if it were banned it should be more along the lines of preventing it/making it impossible than trying to penalize after the fact

2. Should be allowed, particularly the crowd, banning the opposing player from yelling may be acceptable but the crowd potentially going against you is an inherent part of having spectators.

3. Should be banned.

 

[crush]

i think that for matches on stream or w/e at nationals players should be on different tvs anyway.
i know they used to do that at mlg and stuff

 

[FirestormNeos]

For the sake of making the tournament scene more mature,

 

[DoH]

husband and I sang the wicked sound track during friendlies once.

/csb

 

[Strong Badam]

the looking at opponent's controller thing isn't possible to enforce neither is it that much of a problem.

the rest should have rules against them

 

[Heru]

3rd one doesn't work if you keep the jump button pressed down whole time while being grabbed

 

[Vinnie]

for specific examples, i know that within the past year, ive had ally/vinnie look at my DI before on tech chases or grabs,

For the record I don't do this.

 

[| Big D |]

If you can define the 3rd one it would be easier to ban.

I don't really see how it's feasible though, that may work if a character got ground released every time, but just by pressing up or jump the character is forced into air release unless they break out during a pummel, at which point you are doing damage.

As for getting the regrab on the air release, if Nana is the one holding the character then Popo can get the regrab, but once Popo has the grab, how does one get the regrab as Nana in the case of an air release without doing damage? If that can't be done the next best option is to add a bthrow to every cycle, and having Popo sit there with a character in his hands while Nana runs towards him will be mashable until much later percents. A way to make the cycle harder to mash would be to initiate a hobble as Nana runs towards Popo, but that can be SDI'd and it does more damage, not to mention it stops having its jab lock effect pretty early.

If there is a way I would like to know, maybe it's obvious and I completely missed it. I'm unsure how it would be done, and you make it sound really easy, especially if a 5-year old can do it for 8 minutes.

Although whether it can be done or not, it does generate an interesting discussion on characters who can infinite Wario from grab release and the unclear verdict on how to treat that in a tournament setting.

My thoughts on yelling are it shouldn't be encouraged or be allowed, similarly to how there is no "don't punch your opponent in the face" rule but it's not allowed.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Honestly, as long as you dont hurt anyone or cheat, you should be able to do whatever you want. Players have to deal with it from the crowd already, I think it says something about the plyer that can overcome the trash talk.

Screaming like a little girl for an advantage is done in actual pro sports, so if you cant handle a little volume, wear headphones.

 

[EpixAura]

The 1st is fine in my opinion. There is countermeasures to it, although they are a lot of trouble to do. Still, situations where looking at the opponent's controller to gain an advantage are actually very rare.

The 2nd should certainly be banned. There's so many problems with it that I don't know where to start.

The 3rd technically wasn't a question. That aside, of course stalling with that technique (all forms of stalling that can't be dealt with by reasonable means) should be banned. It's a just a matter of redefining the word 'stalling.' As for how to do that... meh. You guys do the rest.

 

[The Good Doctor]

The 1st is fine in my opinion. There is countermeasures to it, although they are a lot of trouble to do. Still, situations where looking at the opponent's controller to gain an advantage are actually very rare.

The 2nd should certainly be banned. There's so many problems with it that I don't know where to start.

The 3rd technically wasn't a question. That aside, of course stalling with that technique (all forms of stalling that can't be dealt with by reasonable means) should be banned. It's a just a matter of redefining the word 'stalling.' As for how to do that... meh. You guys do the rest.

Distractions are used all the time. If they are going to use a no skill chain grab I should be able to do whatever I want to get out of the throw barring directly interfering with him, the game, or his controller including but not limited to talking about his mother.

 

[| Big D |]

So if someone uses a no skill character like Meta Knight can I throw out fake punches throughout the set?

Can I threaten them if they go for a no skill edge guard?

Can I blow in their ear if they spam?

Honestly banning it would solve a lot of potential problems on the spot. Sure some people may take it but others may not take as well and things may get violent. I believe sportsmanship should be encouraged and that victories should be based off the skills within the parameters of the game and not on what actions you can take to make the game unplayable.

Many sporting/competitions give out penalties for misconduct, don't try and justifying yelling in someone's ear by looking at the events that don't.

It's also a matter of respect, you may see the crowd chant in a basketball game while a player is taking a free throw, but you don't see any of the players yelling their heads off, no matter what league it is.

 

[Strong Badam]

I agree with Big D. TGD, bringing up a tactic's skill is irrelevant here. The tactic is either broken enough to ban or it isn't. Banning or not banning things based on how skillful they are introduces a level of subjectivity we seriously do not need in building rulesets.
I think there is more skill to this game using Ike than any other character. Ban all not-Ike characters. Game is more skillful. It's also no longer the game we purhased in stores, so we're no longer holding a tournament for it, but our own completely contrived version of it.

 

[The Good Doctor]

It was badly worded, but what I was trying to say that I think saying or doing anything that's not harmful or touching a person isn't too big of a deal to me.

 

[EpixAura]

Distractions are used all the time. If they are going to use a no skill chain grab I should be able to do whatever I want to get out of the throw barring directly interfering with him, the game, or his controller including but not limited to talking about his mother.

The issue for me is that it disturbs more than just the opponent. It would be a pretty awful experience if someone else lost a game because the guy halfway across the room was screaming every five seconds. Even worse if people started taking this technique too seriously and eventually the whole room became a cacophony of unintelligible shouting. Some level of interfering with the opponent is fine, and trash talk should not only be allowed, but required. We all love trash talk, at the very least.

Also, I wasn't really referring specifically to easy-to-use chaingrabs, although I don't really see a problem with chaingrabs as long as they aren't being used for excessive stalling. If we can yell in someone's ear to hinder their use of a top/high tier character, then in all fairness we should be able to punch MK players in the face before the match begins.

Actually, I like this idea. Just for MK players. Everyone else is off the hook. The counter to MK is now working out in your free time. MK would have a learning curve fitting of his power, because MK players would have to learn not just the character, but how to take a punch. Balance at its finest.

 

[The Good Doctor]

The issue for me is that it disturbs more than just the opponent. It would be a pretty awful experience if someone else lost a game because the guy halfway across the room was screaming every five seconds. Even worse if people started taking this technique too seriously and eventually the whole room became a cacophony of unintelligible shouting. Some level of interfering with the opponent is fine, and trash talk should not only be allowed, but required. We all love trash talk, at the very least.

Also, I wasn't really referring specifically to easy-to-use chaingrabs, although I don't really see a problem with chaingrabs as long as they aren't being used for excessive stalling. If we can yell in someone's ear to hinder their use of a top/high tier character, then in all fairness we should be able to punch MK players in the face before the match begins.

Actually, I like this idea. Just for MK players. Everyone else is off the hook. The counter to MK is now working out in your free time. MK would have a learning curve fitting of his power, because MK players would have to learn not just the character, but how to take a punch. Balance at its finest.

Whatever happened to no ****ing johns?
Also, if you had payed attention to what I said, I think it's ok as long as you are not causing harm to them. Yelling in someone's ear is not only a really stupid thing to do, you'll probably get your ass whooped.

 

[Mew2King]

vinnie yea you did! i was on the ground (on a platform, maybe the right platform of battlefield?? or something) and you looked at my controller to see which way i would roll and then you got me! it was at the last ny tourney we were both at.

 

[Skrlx]

Would looking at someone's controller to see where they will tech be akin to looking at the other player's screen in console shooters to know their placement? I think it's called screen peeking or something like that. I'm pretty sure that is heavily discouraged if not banned.

 

[WindMajor]

First one is fine. You get to see where they are pushing their sticks at the risk of taking your eyes off the screen. There are ways to prevent having your fingers read, so it doesn't need to be banned.

The second one.... Your opponent should not be able to interfere with you, and you should not be able to interfere with your opponent. That means he shouldn't yell at you, shove you, pull out your controller, push buttons on your controller, block your view to the TV, etc. If your opponent interferes with you he should be disqualified. As for the crowd, they absolutely should not be able to directly interfere with the players either, but some things like chanting or loud cheering can't be helped. The players have to learn how to play under pressure and control their nerves, so crowd cheering and chanting should be channeled out either through concentration or through really good headphones. In a more extreme case, if chanting does become too much (perhaps they're chanting something disrespectful, hateful, or low), the player should be able to call a TO or referee to take action depending on the situation. Perhaps a simple "calm down" will suffice, or maybe the TO will have to eject somebody from the venue. Whatever works.

As for the third one, bottom line, it sounds there's no saving the Ice Climbers. The technique can't properly be defined, there's no end game statistic that you can use to enforce it even kind of, and there's a million other loopholes your opponent can exploit to avoid being disqualified via stalling. The only solution I see is to either allow the technique or to ban Ice Climbers. Not even joking.

 

[Strong Badam]

Would looking at someone's controller to see where they will tech be akin to looking at the other player's screen in console shooters to know their placement? I think it's called screen peeking or something like that. I'm pretty sure that is heavily discouraged if not banned.

it's often discouraged, but not banned really. firstly, most serious tournaments use LAN so teams have different TVs to use, or even each individual player on both teams. secondly, you cannot enforce such a rule. enforce-ability is an often overlooked but extremely relevant criteria that prevents a lot of rules from being implemented or relevant even if stated. "stalling is banned" doesn't work for example because stalling not definable by any objective means. it doesn't matter how dumb/game-breaking something is if your rule doesn't prevent it in a manner that leaves no room for interpretation.

 

[Oracle]

Utdzac used to look at peoples controllers after he dthrew them in brawl a lot. Maybe he wants to comment...

 

[Vinnie]

vinnie yea you did! i was on the ground (on a platform, maybe the right platform of battlefield?? or something) and you looked at my controller to see which way i would roll and then you got me! it was at the last ny tourney we were both at.

Naw I definitely didn't, I remember I used to do it with G&W in 2010 but I haven't done it with ICs.

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

M2k: I don't think that the second rule that you mentioned would help you out as much as it would hurt you (shoutout to all falcons who have ever played M2k's sheik)
BTW, M2k, whens the last time you lost a set to a Falcon? I heard its been like 7 years...

 

[sneakytako]

As reference for the 1st point, I'd like to give a few examples in the FGC.

(Blah blah FGC is FGC, smash is smash, but it's a good to understand their philosophy)

The region in the FGC that is most sensitive to this issue is Korea. They are very aware of controller actions and do not like to actually view the controller. At EVO 2012 Mad Kof requested that a barrier be made between the players to limit controller spying. (Reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFSs5ygXgR4, everyone should watch this vid because it's hype as hell)

BUT apparently Korea thinks highly of using audio cues from stick mashing to interpret your opponent inputs, to the point where 'fake' button mashing input mindgames exists lol. The one US player who is known and respected for this is Alex Valle apparently.

 

[peeup]

Smash is a two player game. When ICs start chain grabbing, it becomes a one player game because the target can do literally nothing in-game. He should be able to try to distract him IRL to keep it a two player game. Obviously there should be limits: No physical contact, no obscuring the TV, etc.

 

[IceArrow]

1. It should be banned but I don't see any possible way to enforce this.

2. Yes, this should be banned. I've lost sets due to Hinkage/Mikeray singing Kirby songs or yell at the top of their lungs towards the TV.

3. I main ICs and it is incredibly easy and incredibly stupid. I always thought it was banned but if its not then I will start using it against Snake.

 

[Qzzy]

The controller thing is lame, but what are you going to do? Maybe bring a portable screen or sit further apart. idk...

The nasty yelling stuff just to disrupt, that's grimy, cheating, and really disrespectful. People should start reporting that the the TO immediately. Yeah, people have to deal with pressure and the crowds, but to purposely use it like that is a factor outside the game we're playing. We're playing Smash Bros. Melee, not melee plus who can be the bigger poop-head.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Regarding number 1: Semi-related here, but its not uncommon for people to listen to your button presses when doing things like getting up off the ledge. I have fooled people into thinking im gonna roll from the ledge by masking my actual input with the loud shoulder buttons.

 

[The Mofo]

I think controller-peeking is fine. If somebody is actually good enough to usefully look at your controller to read DI, then start holding your controller perpendicular to the ground in those situations. For breaking out of grab situations, I totally think this is part of the metagame. Pummel until they start to struggle, then throw to mess up their DI. You can start throwing without pummeling but by waiting a little bit, so you interrupt their initial struggling. The person grabbed can start to hold correct DI and focus on struggling with shoulder/A/B/X/Y buttons. In some matchups, correct DI on throws isn't as important as breaking out of the grab.

There's no way to stop this kind of thing from happening, so embrace it, utilize it, come up with counter-strategies, just like anything else in this game. It's not broken, it doesn't make the game worse, and in fact it makes the game more interesting. Even though this isn't a direct mechanic that was programmed in the game, the argument against this kind of thing reminds me of people in 2001 trying to get edge guarding banned.

 

[Xyro77]

Looking at controller is fine.

Yelling extremely loud during a match just to scared/jolt/surprise someone shouldn't be. It not only disturbs the player but multiple other players who are in matches next to/behind the yeller. when something messes with multiple player in my tournament, its gone too far.

 

[MoonlapseOpethian]

1. Shouldn't be banned, for reasons stated by a dozen other people above

2. Don't yell, it's cheating, no matter how you wanna look at it. The crowd is just something you'll have to deal with.

3. I don't care if you have a "loophole" If I was the holder of the tourney, if I saw something even close to that, I'd ban the person. "OHHHH BUT TECHNICALLY I WASN'T STALLING BECAUSE STALLING IS DEFINES AS..." I don't care. The rules shouldn't have to be written in stone with no other possible interpretation in order for people to play fair. You know when you're cheating/using cheap tactics. You can feel it in your mind. Just like when you do something you know is wrong, you have that little tinge in your brain.

Things would be less complicated if the tourney holders took matters into their own hands instead of trying to be "official" or "by the book"

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nah.

Instead, one should always opt for unplugging your opponent's controller when losing.

When in doubt, slap the ************ on the back of his head. With your fist.

Hope this is somehow insightful.

 

[Blacknight99923]

you could probably just turn the controller on its side during the tech chase if people looking at your controller is a problem.

 

[mikeray4]

I don't see why I'm not allowed to yell "Come on snake, buddy, you're blowing everything we've worked for!" while I'm being CG'd to death.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Cause we don't want to listen to people yelling, especially since we're trying to concentrate. Act your age, not like a 7 year old kid not getting his way and winning

 

[KingBlaze777]

Concerning #2
Players should not be allowed to physically or verbally interact with each other once the characters and the stage have been chosen and the match has begun. The only instances they should be allowed to interact verbally and only verbally is during stage striking, selecting characters and at any time that a match is not underway. However, exceptions can be made if there is a reason that both players and the TO find justified. Physical interactions in between matches and when there are no ongoing matches are by no means prohibited as long as neither party is injured in any way shape or form.

 

[mikeray4]

Cause we don't want to listen to people yelling, especially since we're trying to concentrate. Act your age, not like a 7 year old kid not getting his way and winning

>ponies
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