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Should Zelda be buffed?

Should Zelda be buffed?


  • Total voters
    49
  • Poll closed .

SadisticPanda

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So I've been thinking, according to pretty much every tier list I have seen for Melee, Brawl and Project M (tiers may be for queers, but just trying to prove a point :p) Zelda is usually near or at the bottom. If she doesn't get buffed, I'll be okay with it but I personally think she should so it can boost her image competitivley. I don't intend to be biased just because Zelda is my main, but I do think Zelda is one of the best characters in Smash (my opinion, don't shoot me pls) but she obviously isn't if she ranks low on the tier lists.

So my question is: Should Zelda be buffed?
:4zelda:
 

Luminario

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So I've been thinking, according to pretty much every tier list I have seen for Melee, Brawl and Project M (tiers may be for queers, but just trying to prove a point :p) Zelda is usually near or at the bottom. If she doesn't get buffed, I'll be okay with it but I personally think she should so it can boost her image competitivley. I don't intend to be biased just because Zelda is my main, but I do think Zelda is one of the best characters in Smash (my opinion, don't shoot me pls) but she obviously isn't if she ranks low on the tier lists.

So my question is: Should Zelda be buffed?
:4zelda:
Yes but not in the strictest sense of the word since it's not about power and more about stringing combos together. I'm with you on this one as I didn't think Zelda was bad at all since I usually manage to kick ass playing as her. I'd say she either needs to have combo potential but that's rather difficult due to her sniper-like aerials and long lag or moves that do crazy amount of damage in one hit but that seems a bit OP.

Also tiers may be for queers? really?
 
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PrimalCarnage

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We don't know a lot about SS4 at this point, especially in comparison to other characters, but to be on the safe side... I'd want more buffs.
 

Novice_Brave

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She's already received a few good buffs in Smash 4, judging by the demo - so that's a step in the right direction at least. But yes, I still think she needs more buffs - especially to Din's Fire and her overall aerial game.
 

SadisticPanda

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Yes but not in the strictest sense of the word since it's not about power and more about stringing combos together. I'm with you on this one as I didn't think Zelda was bad at all since I usually manage to kick *** playing as her. I'd say she either needs to have combo potential but that's rather difficult due to her sniper-like aerials and long lag or moves that do crazy amount of damage in one hit but that seems a bit OP.
In PM I can peform minor combos with Up Smash or Nayru's Love, but then again PM isn't created by an actual game designer.
Also tiers may be for queers? really?
Yeah, that's what I hear. But screw the haters, right? :p
 

ECHOnce

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Yes, she does need buffs.

Yeah, that's what I hear. But screw the haters, right? :p
Go ahead and screw the haters but...to put it kindly, it would do you some good in the future to avoid language like "tiers may be for queers" on a forum that generally avoids any social taboos. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it and it may sound a bit over-the-top to you, but people can get pretty offended by stuff like that, and for good reason.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Buffing a character doesn't necessarily make him/her better though. Brawl Zelda got buffed, and yet she's one of the worst characters to use in a competitive environment.
 

Johnknight1

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Zelda needs a buff like Meta Knight needs a nerf.

That's why 14 out of 14 people think Zelda needs a buff.
Buffing a character doesn't necessarily make him/her better though. Brawl Zelda got buffed, and yet she's one of the worst characters to use in a competitive environment.
Brawl Zelda's attack speed got insanely nerfed, her two best moves (her forward and back air) were made into freeze frame moves that didn't work.

So literally she lost all her Melee offensive strengths with no other real added strengths.
 
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Downdraft

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In PM I can peform minor combos with Up Smash or Nayru's Love, but then again PM isn't created by an actual game designer.

Yeah, that's what I hear. But screw the haters, right? :p
What's your point? The developers of the official series have gotten her wrong twice, going on 3 times. Your personal experiences or abilities do not change the state of the character, so they don't mean anything in the context of whether or not she's good or bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgjGJnkF4Lg
That and the combo at 0:48 discredit your post further. She has much greater combo potential in PM.

The development staff for the official series abandoned what made Melee a great tournament game in favor of making a party game. Smash 4 isn't catering to higher level players. Zelda might look better than her current form if they'd truly cared about her competitive standing. You may need to do some research.
 

SadisticPanda

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What's your point? The developers of the official series have gotten her wrong twice, going on 3 times. Your personal experiences or abilities do not change the state of the character, so they don't mean anything in the context of whether or not she's good or bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgjGJnkF4Lg
That and the combo at 0:48 discredit your post further. She has much greater combo potential in PM.

The development staff for the official series abandoned what made Melee a great tournament game in favor of making a party game. Smash 4 isn't catering to higher level players. Zelda might look better than her current form if they'd truly cared about her competitive standing. You may need to do some research.
My point is is that Zelda is better in PM than she has been in any other Smash game, and PM isn't exactly a proper installment, just a modded version of Brawl. But it does depend on the player's skill to actually be good with Zelda, and its the same with every other character.

I agree that she has greater combo potential in PM, I never said she didn't. I only gave an example of what I do to peform a combo (doesn't work all the time, but there's many more ways to peform a combo with Zelda, I just didn't list them).
 

Ryan.

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Yes, I think she needs some buffs. I really love her character so I hope she will be better for Smash 4.
 

L2 Sentinel

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So she can be overshadowed by her alter-ego for a third time? No thanks. If you like Sheik so much, then play Sheik.
 
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ZombieBran

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It's telling that 24/24 people agree.
Usually, there is at least one or two people who feel obligated to go against the consensus for the sake of going against it.
 
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Meru.

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Zelda needs a buff like Meta Knight needs a nerf.

That's why 14 out of 14 people think Zelda needs a buff.

Brawl Zelda's attack speed got insanely nerfed, her two best moves (her forward and back air) were made into freeze frame moves that didn't work.

So literally she lost all her Melee offensive strengths with no other real added strengths.
I think she may have been a pretty decent character in Brawl if she would have had her Melee forward and back aerials, they were extremely good and gave her a strong offensive and aerials game, both of which are non-existing in Brawl. She wouldn't be top-tier or something but she would be mid at worst.
Yes, she does need buffs.
ers

Go ahead and screw the haters but...to put it kindly, it would do you some good in the future to avoid language like "tiers may be for queers" on a forum that generally avoids any social taboos. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it and it may sound a bit over-the-top to you, but people can get pretty offended by stuff like that, and for good reason.
Honestly it's not that I would get offended or something, I just think it sounds plain ******** to say this on a forum where most play competitively. No fighting game is perfectly balanced, there are always characters that will have better tools than others, if only slightly. Of course there are games where a large majority or everybody is viable, but even in those games one can often make clear distinctions between the better and worse characters.

Melee and Brawl by the way definitely do not belong to the category where everybody character is strong.
 

Johnknight1

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I think she may have been a pretty decent character in Brawl if she would have had her Melee forward and back aerials, they were extremely good and gave her a strong offensive and aerials game, both of which are non-existing in Brawl. She wouldn't be top-tier or something but she would be mid at worst.
I think the "freeze frame" lag effect really destroyed her in competitive play. That would definitely be a fix to at least give Zelda 2 moves that are very useful and have great priority.

The only saving grace Zelda really had was the transformation to Sheik, which actually worked out fine, although both characters together were still quite underpowered.

But really, Zelda just needs to be quite a bit stronger in every area before she is remotely competitively viable, lol.
 

Reila

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The only saving grace Zelda really had was the transformation to Sheik, which actually worked out fine, although both characters together were still quite underpowered.
No... it didn't. It only made Zelda be outclassed by her alter ego. If anything, the best change she got in Sm4sh was the transformation removal.
 

Storm Eagle

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Zelda is a tricky one to balance. When I play with my friends, NOBODY can beat me when I play Zelda, her Din's fire is just too good. But when you consider tournaments... She isn't peforming well, so to speak. :-P I personally would make it easier for her side aerials to sweetspot, maybe a bit less lag on her normal A attack.
 

Road Death Wheel

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What's your point? The developers of the official series have gotten her wrong twice, going on 3 times. Your personal experiences or abilities do not change the state of the character, so they don't mean anything in the context of whether or not she's good or bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgjGJnkF4Lg
That and the combo at 0:48 discredit your post further. She has much greater combo potential in PM.

The development staff for the official series abandoned what made Melee a great tournament game in favor of making a party game. Smash 4 isn't catering to higher level players. Zelda might look better than her current form if they'd truly cared about her competitive standing. You may need to do some research.
They did not abandon jack it was never his intention to make melee the way it was.
 

Johnknight1

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No... it didn't. It only made Zelda be outclassed by her alter ego. If anything, the best change she got in Sm4sh was the transformation removal.
No, Sheik would do the damage, Zelda would do the KO's. That worked somewhat well in Brawl. Shelda is a thing in Brawl (unlike Melee). We even have an emote of it for Brawl :sheilda:. The only problem is with Brawl the loading time of the stage determines how long the transformation is.

Also, the transformations took up a ton of time of development. It made transformation characters take up the much more time than just making 2 or 3 separate characters.

There's also the fact it held back Zelda, because the balancing of her was clearly not to make her feel "whole".
 
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Meru.

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No, Sheik would do the damage, Zelda would do the KO's. That worked somewhat well in Brawl. Shelda is a thing in Brawl (unlike Melee). We even have an emote of it for Brawl :sheilda:. The only problem is with Brawl the loading time of the stage determines how long the transformation is.

Also, the transformations took up a ton of time of development. It made transformation characters take up the much more time than just making 2 or 3 separate characters.

There's also the fact it held back Zelda, because the balancing of her was clearly not to make her feel "whole".
In practice, nobody was ever succesful using both Sheik and Zelda. Those who tried using both of them eventually just switched to Sheik only. As you said it had the glaring flaw of transformation taking waaay too long but more importantly, Zelda struggled too much against top, high and even a lot of mid tier characters to the extent that just landing a hit could be really hard, or at least harder than trying to kill the opponent with Sheik. This meant that in the end you were just better off sticking to Sheik. I'm really glad transformation is gone, because just as you said, they won't give Zelda nor Sheik any big flaws which they have to supposedly compensate by transforming to their faster/stronger alter ego because that obviously just didn't work.
 

Johnknight1

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Dunno if what I said was right, but top Brawl players told me that who used both so I'll go with them on it! :awesome;
I'm really glad transformation is gone, because just as you said, they won't give Zelda nor Sheik any big flaws which they have to supposedly compensate by transforming to their faster/stronger alter ego because that obviously just didn't work.
Ultimately this is the biggest positive. I love this change. Finally we can see the real Zelda UNLEASHED!!!

If she's terribly balanced or made, then that's where we're at, and then it's easier to diagnose what is wrong and we can get patches to fix these major problems, as well as Smash WiiU obviously.

If she's well balanced and well made, then well, we got small improves to go in future updates if there's anything small that is wrong, and we got ourselves another "made" character.
 

Downdraft

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I hope Palutena, Rosalina & Luma, Robin, or Shulk give me what I need. Is there really a good excuse for the development staff "missing" on certain characters? Melee, Project M, and Brawl- provide great ideas for making certain characters balanced or competitive. The balancing team doesn't have to come up with their own ideas. What would happen judicially if Smash 4 blatantly copied ideas from Project M and Brawl-. I've read that Nintendo cannot publicly acknowledge the hacks due to legal reasons. It'd be a real shame if characters like Zelda and Ganondorf were still poor due to stubbornness or legislation.
 

Klohj

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I think separating her and Sheik was one of the best changes made to Zelda for smash 4. As someone who never transformed in Brawl or Melee (I hate Sheik), I think the mere presence of a down special I can use will be a decent buff. Their separation makes it easier for her to be buffed as they no longer have to balance 2 characters in one. But as much as I love her, she definitely needs to be buffed in some way.
 

Meek Moths

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I also didn't like Sheik because she was the "better zelda" but then I tried her a few times and she's really fun and definitely feels like one of the better smash characters. I just don't like transforming so I always use only one of them. Glad they separated them.
 

DoctorDub

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I love playing Zelda, and I love that she's actually kind of difficult to play. Gives a larger sense of achievement when you win with her (compared to ZSS or someone higher up on the list) That being said, sometimes I feel when I play her, I'm subject to a little too much crap. I'd like to see a buff, but I don't really want to see her in tier A if you get what I mean.
 

Lady Byakugan

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You know, whenever I play with my friends, they always complain about how Zelda is too overpowered and that I shouldn't play with her lol
 

ChickenWing13

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Zelda doesn't need any buffs. She has a lot of potential and all of her moves are so strong, especially her Fair/Bair (sweetspotted). Her recovery however is garbage. Plz change that.
 

ZombieBran

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Zelda doesn't need any buffs. She has a lot of potential and all of her moves are so strong, especially her Fair/Bair (sweetspotted). Her recovery however is garbage. Plz change that.
No, she really does need buffs. Anyone who has even a modicum of Zelda knowledge knows that she's at best far below average in Brawl and even Melee.

Luckily, quite a few buffs have been seen.
 
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ChickenWing13

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No, she really does need buffs. Anyone who has even a modicum of Zelda knowledge knows that she's at best far below average in Brawl and even Melee.

Luckily, quite a few buffs have been seen.
Well if that's the case then what kind of buffs does she need? I'd love to know.
 
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ZombieBran

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Well if that's the case then what kind of buffs does she need? I'd love to know.
One could write an essay, tbh
See:
It's great that you like Zelda so much, and I agree that she's super fun to play and can do some damage in the hands of someone who knows how to play her!

However, it's just unfortunately true that she is, compared to most characters in Melee/Brawl, not as good. Her aerial game is, unfortunately, not "fantastic" - three of her aerials are only useful when speetspotted, and only have a very small, one frame long sweetspot. Her up air is slow to start and slow to end, easy to dodge and easy to punish. Only her nair could possibly used to rack damage and give her something of a safe/non-super situationally good aerial - but even it is hard to land due to its strange hitbox that tends to hit too high and at a strange angle. Her sweetspotted aerials are fantastic kill moves - but sadly, they're hard to land, unsafe, and don't allow for any followup damage.

Her smashes, while seemingly strong as they are all fairly quick, do good damage, and have good knockback - are hindered in that two of them (forward and up) are multi-hit moves that are very easy to SDI out of, so she's not going to get the full damage or the strong final hit knockback - and is probably going to get hit as she finishes the long animation. This leaves down smash as her only fully reliable smash attack - but it is very good, I can't complain about it at all.

The lack of good aerials very much hinders her options of "approach" - it is hard to go on the offense as Zelda as you have to try to get close without any safe way to do so. This wouldn't be as big of a problem if she had a good projectile she could pressure opponents with and force them to approach her. Again, Din's is her only projectile (though now she has Phantom, so we'll see what happens with that!) and it is slow, easy to dodge, and leaves her vulnerable due to its high ending lag - and not only this, but it leaves her helpless in the air - gimping her off-stage options and leaving her open to getting hit even more easily if she uses it in the air on stage for some reason.

Farore's Wind, while a long-distance recovery, is not necessarily a very good one. It's... not the worst, per se, but it is very rigid in that it must travel in straight lines, doesn't automatically make her grab the ledge, gets stuck on obstructions, and allows for almost no horizontal movement after using it - meaning it will either fail to get her back to the stage due to lack of horizontal movement, or force her to travel straight down into a planned attack.

Add in the facts that she is tall,-and therefore an easy target for more moves and easier to hit sweetspots on - floaty, - meaning her aerial movement is slower, easier to gimp, and easier to KO - and fairly light - obviously meaning she gets knocked further earlier - and she simply has an unfavorable stat spread as well.

Now, I think that in the hands of less "technically" oriented players Zelda can be a very strong pick. For players who don't focus on shielding and dodging, Din's Fire goes from a move that almost never hits to one that almost always hits, and her smash attacks go from almost never being finished to almost always hitting and finishing with the full damage. In more technical play though, she is simply outclassed by many other fighters due to a bunch of unfortunate attributes that add up and bog her down.

Don't get me wrong, I love Zelda, and she and Ness are most definitely my Brawl mains - and I probably play more Zelda than I do Ness, overall. I just know what limits her and why it's so difficult to beat someone of the relative same skill level one-on-one if they're playing another fighter. I don't want to sound like I'm saying that I don't think Zelda will ever be good, because I think that Smash 4 Zelda is shaping up to be much stronger than Melee or Brawl Zelda - but I also know that she has a lot of obstacles to overcome, and a lot of technical issues that make her more difficult than she should have to be.

Sorry if you feel like I just threw a bunch of "technical" stuff at you, but that's really the reason she's so often looked down on - because honestly, if you're not playing with "technical" things in mind, she's actually quite good. The only way to really see why she's held so poorly is because the competitive community is talking about playing very technically, and within that style of play are the things that hold her back.

So yeah, I agree with you that I don't think she's very bad at all outside of competitive play. I've seen a lot of people seethe with rage when she's able to win by spammin' that Din's Fire and it never gets dodged, and I've seen a lot of people wreck with her smashes when they're not SDI'd out of. A lot of my casual player friends think she's "cheap" and overpowered, actually! It's really just when the technical stuff comes in that her faults seriously show.

But I'll always love and play her regardless of her tier placement, and I think things are looking up for Zelda fans in Smash 4!
 

ChickenWing13

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One could write an essay, tbh
See:
I would've liked to hear you're opinion since you made it seem like you know everything about the character but ok.

The only "buff" I think she needs is some ground speed and an adjustment to her recovery so it isn't so predictable. Although from what I heard her UpB is now a KO move so there you go. All of Zelda's aerials and ground game are a great set of moves. I think ppl who say she needs a buff are just plain bad or just bad at certain MUs.
 
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ZombieBran

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I would've liked to hear you're opinion since you made it seem like you know everything about the character but ok.

The only "buff" I think she needs is some ground speed and an adjustment to her recovery so it isn't so predictable. Although from what I heard her UpB is now a KO move so there you go. All of Zelda's aerials and ground game are a great set of moves. I think ppl who say she needs a buff are just plain bad or just bad at certain MUs.
I'm not going to regurgitate what everyone (besides you??) already knows about Zelda.
She is second to last in the Brawl tier list for many reasons. It's not just theory, it's been questioned again and again and time after time Zelda is shown to be terrible in Brawl/Melee.

I very much doubt you use Zelda given this post. Or if you do, perhaps your friends can't dodge/roll/shield very well?
 
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Luminario

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So since my Wii isn't reading Brawl's disc anymore I decided to give Melee a go since I haven't played it in forever and I just want to know how i survived playing as Zelda in it. Her smash attack are HORRIBLE the CPUs can get out of up and side smash and I don't think they're even trying to it's that bad and Farore's Wind is god awful since I keep forgetting that the reappearance doesn't have a hitbox so I'm a sitting duck through the terrible ending lag.
One thing I have to note that was pretty good is Lightning Foot. I managed to hit Ganondorf 3 times in a row with it and I gotta say that felt pretty good along with not having the freezeframe stuff it has in Brawl. Also her dair was strong enough to hit him down enough for him not to recover and it didn't even have a sweetspot.
I think what Zelda needs along with other buffs is for her aerials to have as much power as generic aerials should AND have the sweetspot so if you miss it then you still have a reliable enough attack not to get punished for it.
 
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ChickenWing13

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I'm not going to regurgitate what everyone (besides you??) already knows about Zelda.
She is second to last in the Brawl tier list for many reasons. It's not just theory, it's been questioned again and again and time after time Zelda is shown to be terrible in Brawl/Melee.

I very much doubt you use Zelda given this post. Or if you do, perhaps your friends can't dodge/roll/shield very well?
Yes, for many reasons YOU can't explain. It seems like all you can do is complain without even backing up your assumption with any solid reasoning other than "because she is at the bottom of the tier list". Get back at me when you can perform an actual argument.

Also, you are correct. I don't use Zelda and yet I can actually come up with better reasoning. Funny how that works isn't it.
 
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