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Sin and Evil: Naturalism or Superstition?

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RDK

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When asked what it means for someone to be "evil", a normal everyday person would probably respond with a list of things he or she believes to be evil (this list may vary from person to person depending on your world view). A typical Christian response to "sin" would be anything that disobeys a direct commandment from God. No matter your view, I think typically we would all agree that humans are essentially selfish, in that, for the most part, they put their own self interests ahead of others.

However, if we just apply Occam's Razor and pick the simplest course of the origin of evil without wading through all the religious and superstitious nonsense like the concept of "original sin", a perfectly natural answer presents itself. The world is a hostile place containing a vast number of organisms, all competing for space and resources. All living creatures are composed of genes which influence not just the physical characteristics of the creature, but also its behaviour. Now, imagine that there is a scale - at one end there exists a gene that influences its host to not pay a lot of attention to its needs, stuff like food, warmth, the need to reproduce. At the other end of this scale is a gene that influences its host to give these areas very high priority and to put its interests first.

Over millions of years, which genes do you think are more likely to survive and propogate themselves, and which genes are likely to end up being removed from the gene pool? Simple really. Genes that influence their host to look after its needs will thrive, those that won't will disappear and the hosts are likely to become extinct. Repeat this process endlessly and you end up with life on Earth, and anyone who has watched a nature program on the TV will immediately understand the outcome.

But on the other side of the coin, it's not so extreme to the point of organisms not being able to cooperate with each other and thus dying out because of it. Gregariousness in animals (including humans) is perfectly acceptable when the overall benefits to the individual is considered.

Questions? Comments?
 

AltF4

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I'm not really sure what you're looking for here. You presented an argument that selfishness can be explained through natural selection, but what does that have to do with the nature of being "evil"?

I don't see the connection between the first and second halves of your post. What exactly arr you trying to assert? That there is no such thing as evil? Or are you trying to demonstrate that it is a subjective term?

Besides, you don't have to add in attacks at Christianity in every thread in the DH.
 

yossarian22

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Uh... what? You haven't really argued anything besides "to be selfish is to be natural".
Well, so what?
That, in and of itself, has nothing to do with evil and sin, which are fundamentally based off of morality. Your post is just an extremely bloated naturalist fallacy. If you are arguing against the concept of absolute evil and sin (as the thread titles implies), you did a piss poor job.

And seriously, do we need to attack Christianity in every thread? It gets old fast.
 

RDK

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Uh... what? You haven't really argued anything besides "to be selfish is to be natural".
Well, so what?
That, in and of itself, has nothing to do with evil and sin, which are fundamentally based off of morality. Your post is just an extremely bloated naturalist fallacy. If you are arguing against the concept of absolute evil and sin (as the thread titles implies), you did a piss poor job.

And seriously, do we need to attack Christianity in every thread? It gets old fast.
How is it a naturalistic fallacy? It would help to actually back your arguments up with ideas instead of just voicing your opinion and dismissing the argument.
 

riboflavinbob

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You give a bad name to atheists. Your argument is unclear and jumbled. The idea of "evil" is subjective. Your definition of a "sin" is the christian literal view of it.
 

cman

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How is it a naturalistic fallacy? It would help to actually back your arguments up with ideas instead of just voicing your opinion and dismissing the argument.
No one knows what your argument is.....
 

Steck

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Why should those genes be called selfish? Every human being needs to take care of its needs. It's the will to live. It's not really selfish in the sense of a guy cutting you off in traffic. Both may put a person's interests ahead of others but one has nothing to do with mental attitude. It merely has to do with the body taking care of itself. "Real" selfishness has to do with putting your own convenience and pleasure ahead of others. It has nothing to do with "needs". A nice person and a selfish person both eat when their stomachs tell them to. Selfishness would be "Whatever I'm doing it's more important than that other guy." That goes beyond the needs nature would place great emphasis on (food, shelter, sex &c.).
 

yossarian22

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How is it a naturalistic fallacy? It would help to actually back your arguments up with ideas instead of just voicing your opinion and dismissing the argument.
"The" argument?

What argument? I don't see one, and apparently neither does anybody else.

Your "argument" doesn't really assert anything besides "People are naturally inclined to be selfish". Given that this has absolutely nothing to do with evil and sin (or anything even vaguely related to morality), I was forced to make a guess based off of the thread title. Namely that the term evil is mere superstition, and therefore does not exist.

Unfortunately, you only showed that what we may consider evil (your argument is ridiculously ambivalent) has a natural origin. So what? That only proves something if we accept the premise that anything is natural is not evil (a restyled naturalist fallacy).

Its not like this was a very difficult task to perform. Assaulting moral codes is a fairly easy task, as it is arguably impossible to set up a system with moral absolutes. Let's go with Christianity since you seem to insult, mock, or reference it in roughly half of your posts.

Christians follow a Divine Command System of morals, where God is the ultimate source of moral truths. This is not a solution to the problem of absolute morals, as it begs the question: "Is an action good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?" The former implies that moral truths are entirely arbitrary constructs, and hence are not true absolutes. The latter implies that God is not the ultimate origin of morality, and that there is something above God.

It is a boring, cliched argument to say the least, but it works.
 

yossarian22

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In the natural world, there is no sin, or good, or evil.

...Is this even a debate?
Considering the bulk of the philosophical world would disagree with you, yes there is a debate. That is not to say the validity of Divine Command Ethics is being actively debated, but good and evil lends itself into the nature of what being moral is. Morality is not meant to condemn or support actions, poorly constructed strawmen aside, but to tell us what we ought to do (when approached from a Kantian perspective). The very notion of laws is, arguably dependent on our ability to make assertions on what we ought to do.

Well according to Yossarian, naturalism is wrong.
Not wrong, incoherent at least in terms of an ontological assertion. Methodological assertion could work, simply because it does not make any truth statements in its mildest form. But that is another much longer thread.
 

Steck

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Considering the bulk of the philosophical world would disagree with you, yes there is a debate. That is not to say the validity of Divine Command Ethics is being actively debated, but good and evil lends itself into the nature of what being moral is. Morality is not meant to condemn or support actions, poorly constructed strawmen aside, but to tell us what we ought to do (when approached from a Kantian perspective). The very notion of laws is, arguably dependent on our ability to make assertions on what we ought to do.
.
Would that be the "natural" world? Animal world is a better term and they clearly have no such concepts. If you mean within human culture and values i agree with you. Beings who expect things and certain actions from other beings and all that.
 
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