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Since everybody is struggling on the topic: The definition of a "tier"

Yeroc

Theory Coder
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 28, 2004
Messages
3,273
Location
In a world of my own devising
I must be a bit confused, but I always went on the idea of tier list are based on "How Easy Is It For A ****** To Win" idea. Like how with fox, all you need to do is Spam Up-Smash and you can easly kill the person. However with Ness, it would take the same guy time to understand his recovery and be good with it. Just my opinion on it though.
Nope, not even close. What it boils down to are options, but more importantly, effective options. Yes it's true Fox, Marth and Sheik can simply spam good moves like no other, but that's not all they're capable of, unlike several others.

Fox, for example, has multiple good air moves, good Smashes, a good grab game, a damage building projectile, and a move that can and often does kill below 30%. To top it all of, he's one of the most versatile characters in the movement category, though he's pretty hard to control at first. Newbies can play the smash spam game with Fox and wreck their friends, but top level players that know when to use all his other godly moves in the right situations are nearly untouchable by those lesser players.

Sheik, on the other hand, is a completely different animal. There are few outward differences between how she is played by lower level players and upper. The appearance may be much the same, but it boils down to how effectively the player can select and use her options to control their opponent.

Now, both of these characters are phenomenal, but in different ways. Fox is ridiculously fast and has a number of good ways to play him, and they can all be effective in the hands of the right player. Sheik on the other hand is a little slower but has a good stat base, and it's left to the player to take that and run with it. I personally think that, once a certain level of technical ability has been reached, Fox becomes easier to use than Sheik.

kellerdude32 said:
tires dont exist only popular characters and the occasional 1 or 2 characters that suck, any character can win if you use strategy and if you practice with them. anyone who thinks they do exist is just THINKING to much about SSBB, its meant to be played
Yeah, only you unwittingly defeat your own argument by saying that there are 2 characters that are obviously inferior to the rest of the cast. Your idea of the tier list would look like this:

Top
Most everybody

Bottom
Pichu
Mewtwo

You can't have this view and then say tiers don't exist. Don't even try. You just don't see the scale of the list (it's actually fairly short, lots of characters have potential) or don't agree with several positions within it.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Tiers are not necessarily connected to who wins the most tournies. If all skilled players only play as X, Y and Z characters, totally ignoring A, B and C, which only the n00bs play, A, B and C might never place high despite being quite high up in the tiers.

Tiers are based on the metagame. Why do Top Tiers usually win tournaments? Because people tierwhore when it comes to big sums of money.
 

Ledger_Damayn

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
881
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Whoever implied that the tier list is self-perpetuating. That was a nice way of putting it.

What's going on in this thread is that logic is cycling around, constantly. Which characters are better than other characters and which characters tend to place the best in tournaments are intertwined.

What IS stupid are being saying that there will be no tier list. By that, you're implying that every single character has equivalent maximum potential, thus every single character will be used and win tournaments roughly equivalently. That's ludicrous.

Even IF by some miracle that was true, then you can take into account ease of learning. If it is true that every character's potential is equal, then why bother playing a character who's 20x harder to learn than a different character?

So, you see, even if the people who claim "TIRES DON EXITS" are correct in their biggest point that this game is more balanced, they are WRONG because every character will never have the same difficulty to learn how to play.
 

HeroAnri

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
67
Location
NC, Winston Salem -- Friend Code # 2148-7811-3109
tiers arnt made in tournaments, but at home, and up against ones you play to ultimitely bring them out to a tournament with the skill you learned...again, back at home...
so this whole thread is fail...

tiers are characters who are likely to win against another character due to certain moves which dtermine the better outcome....
basically...if u had 2 players of same skill...one with a bigger tier character would win...thats all a tier is...
in melee, top tiers was a tie between shiek fox and marth, along with MAYBE some others....

in brawl, there will be tiers...and it will also be a tie, but only with probably a lil more characters...

so overall, tiers arnt measured by characters who win tournys because there are plenty crappy tournaments around my town to start with...
 

Mambo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
236
I just hope that they come out with a tier list ASAP and constantly update it. We need a sticky tier list that's always known to be under construction and is just a general consensus. But I know one won't be able to for a month or so.
 

Finch

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
1,730
Location
Tallahassee, FL
Tiers are mainly based on tournament winnings. It is not coincidental that literally EVERY consistent major tournament winner, starting with Ken, to some degree played Fox. Ken, PC, M2K, KDJ, and Isai all played Fox. I think the only great player who didn't is Chu, but he played low tiers on purpose.
 

IvanEva

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
557
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I'm seeing two different definitions of the term 'tiers' coming up:

1. Tier: A measure of the most consistently high ranking characters in tournaments.

2. Tier: A list of characters based on winning potential.

Although both definitions are related to some degree, as many people enter tournaments with the sole intention of winning and thus will chose the characters at the top of definition two's list, they still have different meanings.

1. (Most) People go to tournaments to win. To help reach that goal, players will select the character that they believe, from experiences and accounts, will help them reach that goal. From there, they develop that character as much as they can leading to more experiences and discoveries. If the character consistently wins battles for him than that character will be considered to be a 'higher tier' character. If he loses consistently with that character, the character will most likely be dropped, replaced with a different character and considered to be a 'low tier' character. Thus, do the tournament winners become the 'high tier' characters. Everybody begins on equal footing but the winners are the ones that stay. Why does this have to come from tournaments? Nobody else plays to win as much as the tourney guys do.

As some people have mentioned there is a possibility that tiers based on tournaments are little more than just glorified popularity contests. There is a bit of truth in that. However, their popularity comes more from their ability to win than from which game they're in or what they look like. I didn't use to believe that since Melee's/Marvel vs. Capcom's higher tiers are most of the 'cool' characters, but I came to realize that it really is their wins that determine it based on Smash 64's tiers (and videos to prove them to me). If popularity was the determining factor than Kirby would still be top tier in Melee - something which I doubt that anyone would claim.

2. I, however, prefer definition number two: a list of the character's potential - how each character fares when played at his/her absolute, very best. It's important to remember that the learning curve is not part of it - it's a joke comparing how long it takes to be great with Shiek compared to Fox - tiers consider characters at their peak, their 'metagame'. Bowser, at his absolute, very best will almost always lose to a Shiek played to her best. That's what determines the tiers. Who's better/worse overall, regardless of tournament results. However, as already discussed, tournaments adopt better characters rather quickly (and they raise them to be so as well).

The tricky part with tiers (this definition) is proving them. If you want to prove that Roy is a better character than Marth, go out there and use Roy to kick some ***! What's that you say? You got ***** by all of those higher tier guys? Well then, I guess he's not that good afterall, no? (based on a true story, sadly) Tournaments are largely where players can 'prove' their character's superiority and thus did definition one misguidedly come out (although, again, they're both pretty related). I suspect that Brawl's online mode will make tiers come out much faster as the increased competition will lead to the realization of each character's metagame faster.

What may also complicate things is how different some of the characters can be to each other. What if a triangle of sorts appears? If character X is better against Y, Y is better against Z and Z beats X? Their tier level is determined by how they fare against everybody else, not just certain characters. Let's say that Mewtwo is the ultimate anti-Fox (err, use your imagination) yet loses everybody else whereas Fox wins against everybody else. The result? Fox is higher tier than Mewtwo. Counter characters can be complicated but the tier list is a list of 'who is better' OVERALL.

Since there is no official notice of when a character is as good as he/she/it/Kirby can be, tiers aren't fixed. Has anybody tried holding Left on the + pad while doing Mewtwo's Forward Smash? What if it turned out that doing so turned that Smash attack into a one-hit-ko? That would bring Mewtwo up the tier list considerably as he'd then be 'better'. With Melee seemingly understood 100% I doubt that its tier list will change much from here on, although I do believe that some of the lower tiers may not have really reached their metagame (I play as Mewtwo and I swear he can be... well, not THE worst).

One final note, I don't mean to sound rude to the more 'elite' guys at Smash Forums but they're not the ones who determine what tiers mean or what they are. Not exactly. Not the way some people on these boards talk. Tiers, and the word 'tiers' have been around since Street Fighter 2. They're very much something that's determined by the community as a whole, backed by evidence supporting each position. I hate reading that something is so because the 'backroom' guys said it is. Brawl will probably change that.
 

ViolentKyo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
15
Location
America
tiers arnt made in tournaments, but at home, and up against ones you play to ultimitely bring them out to a tournament with the skill you learned...again, back at home...
so this whole thread is fail...

tiers are characters who are likely to win against another character due to certain moves which dtermine the better outcome....
basically...if u had 2 players of same skill...one with a bigger tier character would win...thats all a tier is...
in melee, top tiers was a tie between shiek fox and marth, along with MAYBE some others....

in brawl, there will be tiers...and it will also be a tie, but only with probably a lil more characters...

so overall, tiers arnt measured by characters who win tournys because there are plenty crappy tournaments around my town to start with...
So if the SF3 tourneys in your hometown are crap, yet Ken, Yun, and Chun-Li users are the tournament winners (and they always are in all SF3 tournaments), then the quality of your tournaments prove that tiers don't mean anything in SF3 or any fighting game for that matter.
 

DarkShadowRage

Smash Lord
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Feb 17, 2008
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Honestly, I don't care about tiers...i'm not a tournament player either, but that doesnt mean i'm not really competitive, infact i'm neither of those nor am I a casual, i am neutral.

Mainly i'm a Link user, and if I get beat by a better person I get beat.
Though there are characters that are better than Link, I take alot of pride in trying to master him.
Link in the right hands..can be very deadly.

I just let it roll, and play the game and enjoy it..because it's smash.
We are bashing everyone to oblivion, because it's fun!
 

WuTangDude

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
526
Location
Tucson, Arizona
I just hope that they come out with a tier list ASAP and constantly update it. We need a sticky tier list that's always known to be under construction and is just a general consensus. But I know one won't be able to for a month or so.
A tier list won't be coming out so fast, because there's little to no tourney data that can be used.
 

masterbraz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
155
Location
Medina, Ohio
do the back room smashers ever release documentation about the creation of the tiers and the process they go through to come to a conclusion? I think it would be very interesting if back room smashers summarized important discussions they have when coming up with the tier list. Or if that definition of a tier is completely and literally taken, do they just look at all the results of all the tourneys and tally who gets the most wins? If tiers are nothing more than the results of tournaments cant anyone come up with a tier list given the proper data? And my final question, am i understanding the definition correctly?
 

Mambo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
236
A tier list won't be coming out so fast, because there's little to no tourney data that can be used.
Tourney's can redefine and contribute to a tier list, but they are not requirements, just the main way to measure the accuracy of the tier list. We COULD get a tier list from just players battling eachother and getting a general consensus, but I do agree that that kind of tier list wouldn't be very useful, but as a testament to this board's smashyness, I'd like to see a tier list prediction. I'm pretty sure we could get an accurate list with the few we've had already, though I know we couldn't hardly predict a year, half year, or even maybe a few months in advanced, but it sure is fun to try. I'll guess I'll have to make my own and see how it stacks up when more official tier list pop up.
 

okiyama

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
595
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
If we have a character that can 0 to death every time every character no matter what it's god tier.

If there is a character that can do the converse(that is be combo'd by everyone) it is a garbage tier.

Just saying.
 
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