SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[F1ZZ]

I would recommend not trying to plank against Falco. Doing it repeatedly could lead to a dair to the face or bair stagespike.

This remined me of my first tournament when I played a Falco in pools and got spiked by his Dair three times in the set.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, don't AD his uair, that's bait for a bair.

 

[hichez50]

Well it seems like we have been talking about what we cant do against falco. How about the thing we can do.

For start we cant get chaingrabbed. Just careful not to get grabbed then hit by dair.

 

[phi1ny3]

dtilt is also a good move for stopping phantasm, and I haven't tried it yet, but Dash attack might be a good one too, since it does nice damage, sets up for really good stuff, and comes out on frame 7.

 

[culexus・wau]

Well it seems like we have been talking about what we cant do against falco. How about the thing we can do.

For start we cant get chaingrabbed. Just careful not to get grabbed then hit by dair.

We do get CG'd ._.


anyways, I ussually fair falco out of phantasm, puts me in a good position for some good ol' falco ****, especially offstage [as risky as it is]

If you're brave [and know where to not get sideB spiked] you have a REALLY good shot at gimping falco, very risky but the rewards are enormous

 

[phi1ny3]

Okay people tell me now: Do we get truly "pseudo-pillared", and thus CG'd? I know we don't get regularly CG'd past 2 grabs, but is the dair DIable? I've seen it get done and thus the falco misses because the lucario lands behind when falco attempts it, but it seems flukish more than anything.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Standing at the far edge and powershielding everything isn't a very smart move though.

Lucario is approaching in this match-up 24-7.

Not really.

I've seen players who have had % or stock advantages stall out Falco's by power shielding his lasers on reaction.

If a player can do this on reaction while Falco is camping from a distance you have nothing to fear but messing up and taking 3%. Falco is relying on you messing up sheilding which is why they camp. The only case his laser's will be super threatening is if you let Falco get you into a frame trap or a potential kill set-up.

Yes they are a nuisance to deal with while approaching, but if you can power shield well and your confident in your % lead, you may not have to actually approach.

I do play Falco and agree his laser's are a good projectile, but when your against a player who can power shield them effectively, they become less useful.

Just my input on it.

 

[iRJi]

Okay people tell me now: Do we get truly "pseudo-pillared", and thus CG'd? I know we don't get regularly CG'd past 2 grabs, but is the dair DIable? I've seen it get done and thus the falco misses because the lucario lands behind when falco attempts it, but it seems flukish more than anything.

It is not DIable.

 

[phi1ny3]

How do people DI the spike on other MUs then, because I'm sure we've all heard about that, even though it's really tough to do. Maybe they misjudge the landing? I dunno, but I've seen great falcos mess it up before.

 

[manhunter098]

Whenever I fight a Falco, I crawl in close since silent lasers will miss you if you are crouching, then you just need to be ready for him to either start grounded lasers (a really dumb idea if you are close), or illusion, you can use this to get in a much better range to fight him from.

I really think that Lucario has the advantage in this matchup, Falco doesn't kill Lucaro to well, and he really doesnt camp him that well either.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Silent lasers don't miss you if you're crouching.

 

[iRJi]

Silent lasers don't miss you if you're crouching.

Correct. The MU is dumb. Lol. The whole assumption is " What if falco approaches, what if falco approaches" Well, what if Falco DOESN'T approach? It doesnt take much to camp lucario to a high kill percent, and idk what aura buff you have, you will die when he wants you too. AS does not beat his Phantasm btw. Falco's Phantasm is only hittable on 3 spots, the beginning, the middle and the end. You need a multi hit box move, or a move that stays out for a concirable amount of time in order to stop it (Usmash).

 

[RT]

Usmash to stop Phantasm. Works every time.

At least if they're silly enough to Phantasm onto the stage without canceling it.

 

[manhunter098]

Silent lasers don't miss you if you're crouching.

For whatever reason they always miss when I duck under them.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Play better Falcos.

 

[phi1ny3]

I bet some stages let you get a little more for your duck. Would anything with as slight a dip as YI make Lucario crouch a little better?
Oh, and dtilt is proven to stop phantasm, if you don't believe me, D. Disciple has a set where he dtilts phantasm several times vs. Falco.

 

[culexus・wau]

Anything can stop phantasm at the correct points <_<

hell you can even grab falco out of phantasm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Anything can stop phantasm at the correct points <_<

hell you can even grab falco out of phantasm.

I've grabbed a Falco out of Phantasm once. I was surprised I actually did it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, I've seen grab before.
So I'm guessing that Dash Attack would be a pretty good option then imo, pretty fast, has two hitboxes actually, sets up for good stuff, and it's biggest weakness is eliminated in this scenario (unsafe on block)

 

[Aurasmash14]

iirc Falco really can CG to dair spike us two times. its just that the timing is so strict most arent able to do it. as well as the fact that if the falco screws up, you can start whaling on him brutally....

Any move beats phantasm even AS. the only parts where falco isnt invincible are the ones where he can cancel the phantasm to make it safer though..
I lurves dtilt now against falco phantasm. below 30% the knockback is so low you can use dtilts iasa to /jab-fp/uptilt spam. good punisher.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You guys sure about the two hit box stuff?

If so does Fsmash have dual hitboxes or something that lets Lucario hit Falco out of phantasm?

 

[dawall250]

Well, if i recall properly, i was playing a falco and his phantasm went through the aura of fsmash only to get hit by the lucario's palms, and get sent flying backwards (away from lucario's back) so i guess so?

also, you can di the spike, learning how to di the spike and then teching is a very good way for characters prone to getting wrecked by the chaingrab to spike to survive (something i have yet to learn myself). i dunno how much it helps here though. i guess if you di/sdi the hit so that you land closer to where falco was jumping from that would be better as he lands behind you. i don't know if its guaranteed though, i usually manage to utilt him if he tries to grab immediately after the spike

 

[RT]

You can knock Falco out of Phantasm as long you don't hit him during his invincibility. Heck, you can just jab him out of it. You just need to learn the timing. I've actually managed to Force Palm grab someone out of it...it's pretty funny.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Well, if i recall properly, i was playing a falco and his phantasm went through the aura of fsmash only to get hit by the lucario's palms, and get sent flying backwards (away from lucario's back) so i guess so?

What happened was you attacked him with aura in invincibility, then your paws impacted falco while he was vulnerable. Anybody who says so and so dun work on phantasm is nuts. you just need to know the timing.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, phantasm's hitbox is actually behind him iirc, which explains half of the weird stuff you see, and why it's pretty bad to use against someone when they aren't near the invincible part.

 

[iRJi]

Well, if i recall properly, i was playing a falco and his phantasm went through the aura of fsmash only to get hit by the lucario's palms, and get sent flying backwards (away from lucario's back) so i guess so?

also, you can di the spike, learning how to di the spike and then teching is a very good way for characters prone to getting wrecked by the chaingrab to spike to survive (something i have yet to learn myself). i dunno how much it helps here though. i guess if you di/sdi the hit so that you land closer to where falco was jumping from that would be better as he lands behind you. i don't know if its guaranteed though, i usually manage to utilt him if he tries to grab immediately after the spike

Thats because I also stated that when moves stay out for a certian period of time, it will catch falco also. The move being used has to have enough time for it to stay out, or it will just be bypassed. Moves like our Dtilt, Usmash, things of the sort is what I am getting at.

 

[Aurasmash14]

thing is, Lucario is spilling on moves that stay out for long amounts of time. thereby making phantasm a not so useful escape move in the MU.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

I'm pretty sure Falco doesn't have much chain grabbing options on us. Like, he can somewhat, but I always seem to get away. I haven't played SK92 or DEHF, but I've played a pretty good Falco main and he can CG very well. I'm pretty sure it is DI-able to the point he can only get 1-2 regrabs max depending on percent. If Larry or SK92 show me differently then maybe I'd be more inclined to believe, but good DI and teching is something I don't see often and that is pretty much the whole reason for Falco's ability to CG us more than 2 times. Best case scenario, with the best possible DI, I don't think he will be CGing us much.

I dunno where some of you get this, he wrecks our **** with CGs and it can't be DIed idea. The whole reason you can even avoid dair spikes with other characters that he's guaranteed CG spikes on, is to DI em into the stage and tech it so you don't get smashed into the pit. Same rule applies for Lucario. If you DI that ****, he's not gonna be re-grabbing you or CGing you past like 20-30%.

He'd be better off finishing with a Gatling Combo than trying to CG at that point anyway.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's the dair to regrab they're talking about, Bloodhawk. I'm not sure, but I've heard mixed opinions on whether we're able to DI the dair away from where falco wants us or not, it seems really, really hard, but possible. It's the same principle of how people can theoretically survive the CG -> dair spike kill in other MUs, but only a few people have been able to impliment the timing juuuuuuuuuuuust right, so that they don't have to worry about gimp attempts.

Edit: I agree that the better option for falco is gatling combo, it does a ton of damage still, and it's guaranteed.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

It is very possible to DI the dair, it's just really really tight timing. You gotta treat it just like the Ice Climbers D-throw Nana spike. The more you practice it the better you'll get at it. I've definitely seen it DIed.

 

[iRJi]

As much as I love CGing the next guy, Tbh it is one of the last things we need to worry about on this MU. I am also going to get Bleachego to join us in the conversation.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, it's the pew pew we need to worry about.

 

[G-Beast]

ive learned a few things about Falco in the last few tournaments ive attended... i'll share my thoughts

attempting to juggle Falco with utilt is not a good idea at very low %s, he can very easily shield/PS the second utilt and grab you for a painful dthrow->dair/nair(or something else that isnt fun!). i have also found that aerial followups from a forcepalm can be risky at low %s due to falco's fast falling speed, and that ftilt->grab->uthrow->utilt(or aerial followups) works much better

being aggressive is vital to defeating falco, but you need to be very cautious because even if you power shield that one laser, he might boost smash out of nowhere and hit you with no problems at all.

if falco starts jabbing or grabbing, get away by jumping or rolling... you arent going to win unless falco screws up.

when you get falco offstage(fthrow is great at this) i find that throwing a middle sized sphere works great, it baits his reflector or an air dodge which often gets him into a position in which he is on level with the stage while offstage, get on the edge and get ready to bair or uair, both beat falco's sideB at low %s. just be mindful of his second jump.

as for stages I've been finding that brinstar(although im sure everyone already knows he is bad on that stage) is an excellent counterpick if it's legal, it pretty much shuts down his entire "GTFO" game but you need to be extra careful
you dont get fsmashed

his CG dosent work on us, we outrange him almost completely, the only real problem we have with falco is the lasers... we have no 100% answer to them that im aware of... thats a big problem but i find that a combination of shielding/jumping/double team help somewhat with this issue

im not entirely sure about MU ratio... i am thinking either its even or a slight advantage in either's favor

 

[Rayku]

Fighting a Falco that approaches is a dead even matchup, maybe slightly in our favor.

If the Falco is dead set on just shooting lasers and phantasm'ing through you when you approach, it's a pretty distinct disadvantage for us. The fact of the matter is that you just can't catch him.

I'd say Lucario's best tool in any matchup is his Aura Sphere, which makes Falco a very unfortunate matchup because of the reflector. Seeing as how it comes out on frame 1, there is hardly -any- room to catch him with one unless he is recovering, in which case only larger aura spheres will hit him through a phantasm. If Falco uses upB in any situation, he's as good as dead anyway. The first thing you need to do if he does use upB is grab the ledge.

Beware of Falco's ability to dodge. His spotdodge and roll are quite good, and he can spotdodge to grab quicker than you might think. If you want to punish his spotdodge, get really good at using Dsmash, or go the simple way and use Forward+A to Fsmash instead of your c-stick. Using the button layout over the stick gives you a bit more of a startup time, which is soooo beneficial against people who like to spotdodge.

Falco can chaingrab/pillar every character in the game if you're fighting someone who knows what they're doing. If what Kismet told me is true (and I remember correctly), Falco can do 3 CG's, and D-air, and there is a small frame where you can roll away before he grabs you again. You MUST. Be. WARY of this, though, and make sure he doesn't hit you with it. Else you're going to start off with an 80% handicap, just like the rest of the cast.

Also. Do -not- forget about Falco's best close-up move, Jab. It comes out in 2 (two) frames and has a ridiculous priority set to it. Needless to say, if Falco gets in a jab against you, roll away as soon as you can or else you're going to get grabbed, or other bad tidings will come upon you.

Beware of getting edgeguarded by Falco. Like most characters, and smart players, people can just hold on to the ledge until you get back on the stage and punish your landing lag with it. MASTER THE NO-LAG EXTREMESPEED in order to avoid this! I can't stress this enough. Anyone who has fought a not-******** Snake knows exactly what I'm talking about. Also, off-stage, Falco can fall and B-air and still recover while you're dying, but if you're not dead, he will be. I've not seen any Falcos but Kismet doing this. However, he can also jump and B-air, just like they do in Melee.

 

[iRJi]

I think I finally made a sig I somewhat like, LOL. Anyway, I will get back to his MU. I am just seeing what everyone says about it first.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

if you keep a close eye and bait the phantasm and psheild, lucario can definitly punish. i did this a whole lot back when i used lucario to punish falco. as long as you condition him to use phantasm, just psheild his lasers while approaching, then start running back the other way, pshield the phantasm, and grab or fair

 

[hichez50]

Can some one explain what phantasm is?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

that would be falcos side b

 

[G-Beast]

in the previous tournament i was at a knocked out a falco... the last KO was so funny


he DIed my fsmash very well, going at a 45 degree angle but he ended up very high. i flicked my AS high up to bait a reflector, he popped his reflector when he was too high, it MISSED the aura sphere going over it and he fell into the AS and died... epic fail imho

 

[Aurasmash14]

Falco's reflector is actually not as dangerous to our AS as say, Fox or wolf.

it reflects, the whole time it is out, but it is more punishable by conventional attacks. all it takes is to bait it, the leap over it to a fair>nair attack. just dont fire a large AS into it and you will be fine.