Smash 4 at EVO?

[Senario]

Because Brawl totally doesn't reward skill *Sigh* Geez, Brawl hate makes less sense every day.
And I already said it, on a perfect world, Smash4 and Project M would be the main Smash games, with Melee and Brawl left on the past, but Project M has two things going againist it, being a mod and some Melee people hating it because the game's not as ludicrously hard as Melee. And I don't know what you mean by ''competitive mechanics'' the game needs a few tweaks to landing lag and throw distance and it'll be absolutely perfect.

Nintendo will push Smash4 and if they push enough, then the Big N might even override the great poison and finally end the Brawl Vs. Melee wars. They've done their fair share of saving entire communities and industries, so it wouldn't surprise me.

Smash4 seems to be right between Brawl+ and Project M, and that sounds like a whole lot of fun to me.

ok...well first of all Project M is popular enough and there are a few problems with the game. Mainly balance being in flux due to constant updates and the game being a mod...it is not as fluid feeling as melee.

Brawl wasn't good enough to be considered a spectator e-sport for tournaments, the matches are boring and overly defensive. Sure, you could get rewarded by being skilled at zoning and defensive play but there was nothing for offensive play. Offensive play is usually what makes a competitive game interesting. Nobody likes watching a game where defense is the best option. Not in league of legends where you don't want to watch people farming for 20 min and definitely not in smash where you don't want to spend a good two or three minutes just waiting for somebody to go in and make a mistake. In a way I suppose you could revise what I said to "reward offensive skill" because defensive play is boring as heck to watch and makes for a bad tourney game....well that and random elements, tripping essentially kills brawl's competitive community from flourishing since it is RNG, not skill. Terrible balance didn't help either.

Smash 4 will be at evo if it is competitive. I hope Nintendo is pushing the developer to make changes which benefit an offensive metagame. Otherwise you can't expect a game just to be there because it is the newest in the series.

That said, I don't think the competitive community is some "poison" as you claim it to be. They simply want the best game for everybody. Unfortunately if it doesn't deliver they can't support it. And the community isn't in need of saving, it is going better than ever and is still growing because melee works so well at high levels of play. A new game with the ability to do some of the stuff you see in melee without some un-needed tech difficulty would be a good update, but it doesn't seem like it so far. Even one of my favorite characters, the Avatar from FE: Awakening seems to have god awful long landing lag on his moves and a really bad sounding gimmick where his weapons break with use, possibly making him weaker over time instead of being something like Megaman where he uses different tomes for different parts of moves. Or has something unique that is good in both forms, a sword mode and magic mode.

 

[pizzapie7]

I don't know if anyone's brought this up, but in regards to hype in general...

Let's say this game ends up borrowing some pages from Melee's book and Brawl's book (crouch cancel from dash, dashdancing, RAR, B-reversals) but it still ends up playing similar to the demo in regards to general speed.
Will Melee still overcome it?
After all, SSFIV is ridiculously slow (if you've watched Marvel or BlazBlue, you'd see how drastically different it is) and can end up camp-heavy at times due to chip damage, but people still get super hyped over it (myself included, and I've hardly played the game besides a few rounds with T. Hawk).

Melee outshined Brawl but SF3 didn't outshine SFIV (or USFIV in this case), so how much does Melee's technicality matter?
Like, it's faster and less "constricted" in general than Brawl, but Brawl can still get very interesting to watch.
Do you think Smash 4 might pull a SFIV and take Melee's spot regardless of tech and speed?

I'm honestly not sure. Without outside help from Nintendo it's honestly up in the air as to whether the scene could survive or not. Brawl lived, but Brawl came after Melee and had all this grand hype around it and was thought up as a genuine successor. But Brawl flopped hard with the competitive audience. Brawl's scene lived, but how much of that life was simply because it was riding on Melee's coattails? It's hard to say.

Smash 4 is coming out in a different environment entirely. Melee is right now bigger than it has ever been before. It's not pure grassroots in basements and arcades and lan centers anymore. It's a known quantity in the competitive gaming community and on the internet. Like I said, Brawl failed to enamor the Melee audience for very long, people moved back. Is Smash 4 really seen as a successor to Melee at this point, the "loved game", or a successor to Brawl, the spurned one?

The game being Melee-approved (as silly and trivial as it might seem) is something I honestly feel is important to Smash 4's success as a competitive game, for better or worse. Take a read here: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-jersey-killed-brawl-they-alone-and-no-one-else.346221/ . A few posters like Djent and Juushichi make excellent points about Brawl's dying scene, and it's hard to find reason that these wouldn't be found in the Smash 4 community. Things like a lack of real community leaders and an overall apparent apathy toward the game and scene are cited. My fear is not that these points are at some point exhibited in the game. All games will die eventually, even Melee. My fear is that the state of Brawl is carried over to Smash 4 as it is right now. If the game isn't designed to be a competitive game, people will get bored with it. People will not want to spend money at tournaments to play it. Entrant numbers will dip. The plug on the game will be pulled at these tournaments. The game gets no exposure and no play time, so entrant numbers elsewhere dip because of a lack of new blood. The plug on the game at those tournaments is then pulled.

Smash 4 will live and thrive if the people want it to. But who is going to want to support or even lead a scene for a game they don't like to play?

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I wouldn't call the community poisonous at all. We Nintendo fans just got a solid fighting game that we can call our own.
Just think...

If Melee was the game Sakurai envisioned then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Melee would just strictly be the fun, casual party game it was intended. People would make it competitive because of the love of the game but it would never reach the heights it is at now. We have arguably the fastest and most technical fighting game out there and we're proud of it.

The reason people keep coming back to Melee would be the same if Capcom decided to release another SF that was more casual and less technical. Everyone would go back to playing Ultra. Everyone is open to Smash 4 and genuinely excited for it but will it be the game the competitive scene wants? Thar's something we'll have to find out later.

I've played Smash for a looong time but I've just became part of the community fairly recently. Is the competitive Melee scene the majority of the entire Smash community? That would play a big part in Smash 4's inclusion to EVO. Because the Wii U version comes out in December the interest will be there for EVO 2015. The question is how good will this game be competitively to continue beyond that?

 

[Zango]

If Melee was the game Sakurai envisioned then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Melee would just strictly be the fun, casual party game it was intended. People would make it competitive because of the love of the game but it would never reach the heights it is at now. We have arguably the fastest and most technical fighting game out there and we're proud of it.

This is a too-common misconception. While wave-dashing and other advanced techniques were hidden in that they were never explained or even acknowledged, the game's files contain specific animations and data for wavedashing and other techniques. They were very real and intentional design choices.

 

[Terotrous]

I think there's a 100% chance of it being there. As noted, EVO will typically include every high-profile fighting game release for at least one year. Even Brawl was there for two years.

 

[FalconSoup]

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

This is a too-common misconception. While wave-dashing and other advanced techniques were hidden in that they were never explained or even acknowledged, the game's files contain specific animations and data for wavedashing and other techniques. They were very real and intentional design choices.

I am aware of that but it wasn't meant to be utilized and exploited the way it is today.

 

[LIQUID12A]

I think there's a 100% chance of it being there. As noted, EVO will typically include every high-profile fighting game release for at least one year. Even Brawl was there for two years.

Are you sure that Melee's unquestionable popularity won't replace it? I'm all in favor, but that's kind of my thought.

 

[Terotrous]

Are you sure that Melee's unquestionable popularity won't replace it? I'm all in favor, but that's kind of my thought.

If Melee remains popular even after Smash 4 comes out, they might both be there, especially if Nintendo continues to sponsor.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why even cut anything? Just run them all.

People still rub street fighter 2 and 4 together.

If you have to cut anything do it off what you want as a TO.

Edit: Brawl got cut because of rule set disparity, not because it lost popularity. If I remember right last APEX had the highest Brawl attendance yet.

 

[Terotrous]

Why even cut anything? Just run them all.

People still rub street fighter 2 and 4 together.

Street Fighter 2 is no longer considered a "featured" game at EVO, they run it as a side tournament. There is a certain limit to just how many games they can feasibly run on the EVO main stage.

It's possible that Melee might get bumped to side tournament status, but at the same time, a couple of the games they have this year may not return next year. I'd be kind of surprised to see KOF13 come back, it's getting very few entrants from North America these days. Might also lose Injustice, unless Injustice 2 is out by then.

 

[Chimera]

I'll be clear. Smash 4 BETTER be at EVO. It should replace Melee next year. I supported Melee last year and this year at EVO, and now I'm ready for Smash 4 to be given it's proper spotlight. The community should support Smash 4.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I highly doubt they'll run Melee and 4. Smash 4 will likely be there for a year at least with Melee as a side tourney. If Smash 4's hype dies down and is not deemed "competitive", more than likely it will be gone EVO 2016 and Melee back in. I really want to see Smash 4 thrive in the community. I'm excited to see the development of new characters

 

[Terotrous]

Well I think Smash 4 will definitely prove to be a little more popular than Brawl at least. Already from pre-release footage we can see that some combos are returning and the speed of the game is a bit faster.

I wonder what tournies will do about custom movesets? They seem to be a pretty big part of the game, but they might take a while to set up, and TOs don't like things that make matches slower.

 

[NewGuy79]

er Y not both?...

 

[Clavaat]

EVO predominantly features the newest entry into the series, largely due to sponsorship. That being said, the community will probably need to ease up on its definition of "competitive". AT's do not make a game competitive. Character balance and some form along with some AT's for higher level players make for a competitive game. Being accessible is also important; you want your players to feel like they can participate and get to higher levels. After all, the more players, the more competition.

It's hard to establish some of these definitions for the Smash series, because they are not traditional fighters. We cannot limit ourselves to the idea that Melee = Smash, and how Smash should be, competitively.

Personally, I found this year's Smash at EVO boring to watch. I was excited to tune in, but by the end, I wasn't entertained. It's become far too familiar, you know exactly what to expect. The reason SF continues to work is because each iteration has been very different from the last, mechanically, structurally, and visually. People are still discovering new techniques and the winners lineup is incredibly varied. Again, this is just my personal opinion, and it comes from what I would like to see from competitive Smash, which is something new. Besides, there's always side tournaments for Brawl/Melee.

 

[Terotrous]

Personally, I found this year's Smash at EVO boring to watch. I was excited to tune in, but by the end, I wasn't entertained. It's become far too familiar, you know exactly what to expect.

I enjoyed seeing Axe make waves with Pikachu, because it was unexpected. I agree that in general Melee has gotten a bit old now and I find Project M and Smash 4 a lot more interesting.

 

[Senario]

I am aware of that but it wasn't meant to be utilized and exploited the way it is today.

What was intended isn't important, what matters is what people make of what is there in a piece of work (game, book, comic, ect). The author of Evangelion says there is no real meaning to his manga/anime when fans deem otherwise, what does this mean? Well it means that the work in and of itself can be interpreted as it is without the author's input. It exists on it's own merits and should be judged as such.

AT are fine, future games should probably simplify them so newer players can get in but otherwise the underlying effects of them are good. Some that cannot be simplified and probably just need a manual entry: Jump cancelling, meteor cancelling, fast falling, shield drop off the top of my head. These are all good mechanics and very simple to do, can't make them simpler.

 

[Clavaat]

I enjoyed seeing Axe make waves with Pikachu, because it was unexpected. I agree that in general Melee has gotten a bit old now and I find Project M and Smash 4 a lot more interesting.

I should note, that I'm not trying to make a knock on the competitive level of Melee, I totally understand the amount of skill/work involved in getting to that level. I haven't played competitively in a long time, but I can say that it gets a bit tiring seeing a lot of the same things happen. As a player, it's one thing, as a viewer, another. That's all I meant by that portion of the post.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'm pretty ****en sure a ton of people love watching farm for 20 minutes. You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I should note, that I'm not trying to make a knock on the competitive level of Melee, I totally understand the amount of skill/work involved in getting to that level. I haven't played competitively in a long time, but I can say that it gets a bit tiring seeing a lot of the same things happen. As a player, it's one thing, as a viewer, another. That's all I meant by that portion of the post.

I posted earlier saying that while I enjoyed watching, I got a bit bored of seeing the same characters every other match. I'm not active in the competitive scene but I would like in the near future. So every time I saw Fox/Falco it looked the same to me. I too appreciate what these guys go through to perform on that level in front of tons of people.

It exists on it's own merits and should be judged as such..

The issue is that the Smash games after Melee are being judged based on Melee's merits and not their own. Brawl was very different from Melee and was largely dismissed because it didn't contain the same fighting mechanics. Smash 4 has the possibility to change this thinking I believe.

 

[Dracometeor]

I'm pretty ****en sure a ton of people love watching farm for 20 minutes. You don't know what you're talking about.

What are you even referring too?

 

[Senario]

I posted earlier saying that while I enjoyed watching, I got a bit bored of seeing the same characters every other match. I'm not active in the competitive scene but I would like in the near future. So every time I saw Fox/Falco it looked the same to me. I too appreciate what these guys go through to perform on that level in front of tons of people.



The issue is that the Smash games after Melee are being judged based on Melee's merits and not their own. Brawl was very different from Melee and was largely dismissed because it didn't contain the same fighting mechanics. Smash 4 has the possibility to change this thinking I believe.

No, brawl was judged on it's own merits and it failed to meet competitive player's expectations, people tried and ended up at the same result. The reason was not because the game isn't exactly the same as melee, it was highly unconductive to competitive play. The thing is you took that quote out of context. I meant that the game's competitiveness should be judged on it's own and not by the input of whatever Sakurai has to say about the game. However, melee has a good base for what works in competitive smash. Being the only one in it's genre it is the only one we have the ability to compare to. And it has a good reason to show why it works. The game launches EVERYBODY up in the air when you get hit, this leads to air game being very important as that is how combos start. This is why landing lag and mobility are very key since you cannot follow up otherwise. Most characters have ground moves that don't link well together simply because everything launches people into the air, this isn't a regular fighting game where ground is arguably just as important as air combos.

It being a sequel you expect it to have somewhat similar mechanics although they may be simplified, and smash is the only game where I don't see this happening.

Smash 4 currently is a little bit iffy, I wouldn't bet on it changing anything. Much less if you think that having good fighting mechanics is a bad thing to think about. Much less confidence with Sakurai in charge. Nintendo would change things, Sakurai wouldn't.

 

[Terotrous]

I should note, that I'm not trying to make a knock on the competitive level of Melee, I totally understand the amount of skill/work involved in getting to that level. I haven't played competitively in a long time, but I can say that it gets a bit tiring seeing a lot of the same things happen. As a player, it's one thing, as a viewer, another. That's all I meant by that portion of the post.

No, I totally got that. I agree that as a viewer, I like to see new stuff. That's why SF4 is fun to watch, it's constantly changing and a lot of characters are distinct yet viable. It's also why I find Marvel to be the most boring game ever to watch, the game hasn't changed at all in years and the team you pick almost doesn't matter because everyone has 50/50 ToDs off absolutely everything.

In that sense I find PM more interesting than Melee because there's a wider range of viable characters and playstyles, and it's also simply newer so we haven't seen everything yet. Smash 4 also has that same freshness factor, though time will tell how many characters are viable and how competitive it is.

 

[Terotrous]

Smash 4 currently is a little bit iffy, I wouldn't bet on it changing anything. Much less if you think that having good fighting mechanics is a bad thing to think about. Much less confidence with Sakurai in charge. Nintendo would change things, Sakurai wouldn't.

Sakurai changed the game substantially from Melee to Brawl, what makes you think he won't do it again?

We already know from gameplay that Smash 4 has some fairly substantial changes from Brawl, most notably that hitstun is a lot longer and overall the characters move faster. Also, the way ledges work is totally different.

 

[Senario]

Sakurai changed the game substantially from Melee to Brawl, what makes you think he won't do it again?

We already know from gameplay that Smash 4 has some fairly substantial changes from Brawl, most notably that hitstun is a lot longer and overall the characters move faster. Also, the way ledges work is totally different.

The way ledges work seems even more forgiving than brawl ledges. You grab second, you get the ledge. And blast zones and recoveries are stupidly large/long respectively. Fox isn't even good anymore but there is no reason he should be able to side b into up b. It is a shame that in a game where keeping somebody from recovery it is a tactic that is constantly discouraged instead of encouraged due to its use of skill.

Sakurai has a precedent, he has a significant bias that will not likely change because he seems to be the stubborn type. You can see it in his interviews, he cares nothing for the competitive community. It would be good if he cared as much about the competitive community as he did with putting a lot of trophies and extra content into the game but he doesn't seem the type. Those two are different things, game mechanics, and extra for fun content.

Also, hitstun is all well and good but you need low landing lag to complete the equation of making true combos. If you hit somebody, they pop into the air, you hit them with an air move and have to land....you would have to run up jump and hit them again to combo. This game pops everybody up into the air on a frequent basis so they usually aren't in hitstun anymore by the time they reach the ground. If landing lag is still very long you won't be able to follow up past one jump or using your second jump.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Senario, you seem like an earnest guy so I'm going to clue you in gently. You don't know anything about Brawl. That's fine, Brawl isn't your thing; I get that, and it's certainly okay not to be an expert on things you don't pursue. However, you need to realize you simply don't get the game and not talk about it like you do. You may jump to immediately disagree, but you claimed that tripping is a significant random factor leading to Brawl being non-competitive. That's a classic tell of someone who is clueless actually; tripping has a very negligible effect on Brawl's metagame since trips are relatively rare (less often than once per game) and lead to nothing the overwhelming majority of the time they occur. I could also point out that it's only about in the last year that Melee has become bigger than Brawl and that Brawl was the main game of the community for many years; a game doesn't get played as long as Brawl did without having a lot of real merit. The actual cultural factors in Melee vs Brawl are really complex and even political to a non-trival extent, but I hope you can just take my word that they do not boil down to Brawl being bad (at least not in any kind of a simple way; certain gameplay aspects of Brawl were relevant) or to a simple case of the competitive community rejecting a disliked entry in the series.

 

[Andrex]

I'm not sure the new ledgegrab and recovery mechanics are necessarily a bad thing. Just different.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I'm not sure the new ledgegrab and recovery mechanics are necessarily a bad thing. Just different.

I agree. The edgeguarding is still there. Just no more edge hogging. This means there will be more focus in preventing someone from reaching the ledge entirely instead of preventing them from grabbing it.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

A lot of good discussion going on. Didn't really want it to be a Melee vs Brawl debate tho haha.

Melee is my current game of choice but I'm looking forward to Smash 4 changing that for me. If it's not the competitive game we're looking for then that's cool too. I want to get into the competitive scene but more importantly I just wanna have fun with it.

 

[Terotrous]

The way ledges work seems even more forgiving than brawl ledges. You grab second, you get the ledge. And blast zones and recoveries are stupidly large/long respectively. Fox isn't even good anymore but there is no reason he should be able to side b into up b. It is a shame that in a game where keeping somebody from recovery it is a tactic that is constantly discouraged instead of encouraged due to its use of skill.

Actually I think Fox Side B not going into helpless is an interesting mechanic. If he also retains double jump, I could definitely see this having use in combos, like Side B, double jump, Bair for example.

Also, it never really took a lot of skill to just grab the ledge. This mechanic encourages you to go offstage to get kills, which generally takes a lot more skill.

Blast zones do seem a bit bonkers, I'll admit.

Sakurai has a precedent, he has a significant bias that will not likely change because he seems to be the stubborn type. You can see it in his interviews, he cares nothing for the competitive community.

That's not quite true. He did say he would be paying more attention to game balance this time around than he did with previous games. Also, the speed of the game has been tweaked to make it inbetween Melee and Brawl, because he knows people weren't too happy with Brawl.

Also, hitstun is all well and good but you need low landing lag to complete the equation of making true combos.

True, landing lag might be an issue, if landing lag is high the only possible combos will be ground to air. However, autocancelling is returning (Sheik Fair and Fox Dair are known to have it), so at least some aerial combos should be possible.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

It could make it into EVO, but it might not be a main event and be relegated to a side event, depending on how it pans out tournament-wise. Look at PSABR - the game that was openly advertised at EVO before its release...no main event because it was boring, repetitive, and rejected by the FGC. Dead or Alive 5 didn't even make it into a main event showing. Plus we can probably expect the general roster of main events to be the same (Injustice replaced by MKX, BBCP replaced by Guilty Gear Xrd), so the question will come down to whether they show Melee or Smash 4.

 

[Terotrous]

It could make it into EVO, but it might not be a main event and be relegated to a side event, depending on how it pans out tournament-wise. Look at PSABR - the game that was openly advertised at EVO before its release...no main event because it was boring, repetitive, and rejected by the FGC.

Eh, times have changed since PSAS. Back then, the FGC was still stuck in the mindset that "Smash is not a real fighting game", so a lot of people never gave PSAS a chance (and it didn't help that the game wasn't fantastic so it didn't really change the minds of the people who did play it). Over the last year or so though they seem to have finally figured out that Smash has just as much depth as any other fighting game, and with Smash 4 being such a hotly anticipated release it'd really have to be a spectacular failure not to make it IMO.

 

[pizzapie7]

Senario, you seem like an earnest guy so I'm going to clue you in gently. You don't know anything about Brawl. That's fine, Brawl isn't your thing; I get that, and it's certainly okay not to be an expert on things you don't pursue. However, you need to realize you simply don't get the game and not talk about it like you do. You may jump to immediately disagree, but you claimed that tripping is a significant random factor leading to Brawl being non-competitive. That's a classic tell of someone who is clueless actually; tripping has a very negligible effect on Brawl's metagame since trips are relatively rare (less often than once per game) and lead to nothing the overwhelming majority of the time they occur. I could also point out that it's only about in the last year that Melee has become bigger than Brawl and that Brawl was the main game of the community for many years; a game doesn't get played as long as Brawl did without having a lot of real merit. The actual cultural factors in Melee vs Brawl are really complex and even political to a non-trival extent, but I hope you can just take my word that they do not boil down to Brawl being bad (at least not in any kind of a simple way; certain gameplay aspects of Brawl were relevant) or to a simple case of the competitive community rejecting a disliked entry in the series.

While tripping wasn't a major factor by any means in the death of Brawl, it clearly showed what Sakurai wanted and designed the game to be. And while Brawl was "bigger" for much of it's life, it didn't start from scratch. It sprouted up out of Melee's already grown scene. Kind of like the newest renditions of SF or Marvel. Those scenes are already big, so the new game is brought in with open arms to a community that is already prepared for it. If the game was actually judged to have "a lot of real merit", it would still be the bigger game. Like SF4 and MVC3.

 

[Renji64]

Depends if it is fun to watch and people actually enjoy it and if it is hype. It will have it's spot.

 

[Terotrous]

While tripping wasn't a major factor by any means in the death of Brawl, it clearly showed what Sakurai wanted and designed the game to be.

Sakurai is a troll at heart. That's why he put tripping in the game, because he thought it would be funny. It's the same reason some items can backfire, why he teased us with Chrom in the latest trailer, etc.

However, tripping is gone in Smash 4. Either Sakurai wizened up or (more likely) someone else reigned him in.

 

[Senario]

Is auto cancelling returning? That would be bad as it not only takes the bad aspect of L cancelling (there is no reason you don't do it) but also punishes you for trying to speed up the game by landing earlier so you have more options. landing lag should be low across the board regardless of when you land. Auto cancelling just hurts balance more than low landing lag across the board or no such mechanic.

 

[Renji64]

Sakurai is a troll at heart. That's why he put tripping in the game, because he thought it would be funny. It's the same reason some items can backfire, why he teased us with Chrom in the latest trailer, etc.

However, tripping is gone in Smash 4. Either Sakurai wizened up or (more likely) someone else reigned him in.

Where do people get that he is a troll? I don't think making game bad for competieve players is some form of trolling. He added tripping because he didn't want people playing the game competitively.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Eh, times have changed since PSAS. Back then, the FGC was still stuck in the mindset that "Smash is not a real fighting game", so a lot of people never gave PSAS a chance (and it didn't help that the game wasn't fantastic so it didn't really change the minds of the people who did play it). Over the last year or so though they seem to have finally figured out that Smash has just as much depth as any other fighting game, and with Smash 4 being such a hotly anticipated release it'd really have to be a spectacular failure not to make it IMO.

The problem with PSAS is that it wasn't fundamentally the same as Smash, with very different mechanics that suffocated the life out of any tournament viability it may have had. Sure it was a party game with items and similar physics, but that's where the similarities ended. Most fighting games have a health bar system that's depreciated over time through incoming damage that makes all attacks relevant to the game, and Smash's percentage is essentially the same thing. PSAS doesn't have a health system to speak of, and - most damning of all - only allows you to kill anyone through one of three different supers per character, with no out-of-bounds KOs, This means that ALL fights will end with one of three different moves for every character, and all other attacks don't really have any other function than to build meter. This makes for very boring fights, whereas every other fighting game can be won through virtually any attack (though Smash cuts a few of those off, it's nowhere near as strict). Now killing someone with only one of three moves every time is fine for a game like Dive Kick where it's a Flash game that only has two moves in it, but for a party game that's meant to show off the prowess and appeal of various Sony IPs? Terrible design philosophy.

Melee's second wind came from its fortunate triumph at the charity event. By putting it on the main screen of the largest annual fighting tournament in the world, everyone got to see that yes, there are advanced techniques used in Melee, there are plenty of strategic moves that can be made which produce hype and excitement by fans, and it has a very passionate community. Without that, I very much doubt Smash's interest would ever have been revived.

 

[Terotrous]

Is auto cancelling returning?

Yes, see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clc5U2DKzsU

Where do people get that he is a troll? I don't think making game bad for competieve players is some form of trolling. He added tripping because he didn't want people playing the game competitively.

Pretty much everything he does really. Did you watch the latest character reveal trailer?

Tripping doesn't really ruin the competitive side of the game, it's just an annoyance to people who play the game seriously. Hence the troll.

The problem with PSAS is that it wasn't fundamentally the same as Smash, with very different mechanics that suffocated the life out of any tournament viability it may have had...

I really don't agree that the Super system in PSAS hurt the game. There were loads of different ways to land your supers (at first) and they helped it feel like something other than just another smash clone. The problem was really in terrible character balance and post-launch support. I played hundreds of matches of the demo and had a ton of fun, if they had just polished up a few issues and put in more characters while keeping the balance it would have been great. Sadly, they just made the balance worse and worse while continuing to ignore the little annoyances like online freezes and desyncs.