Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[manhunter098]

So as with what I have said earlier, I have a list of all character's who's recovery moves fit well with the hint.


Bowser, Captain Falcon, Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers, Wario, Ike, Kirby (?), Lucario, Lucas, Ness, Peach, Pit, Zero Suit Samus.


My criteria for choosing these was that they have a recovery that can be effective in most cases in terms of distance it can cover. It also had to be something that could be gimped by a more SKILLED player. Olimar doesnt make the cut because even a noob can gimp him, and ZSS does make it because she has that extra hop from her down B to help deal with edge hogs, plus she can recover both horizontally and vertically from a very long distance.

Kirby is on there just because I feel that when he is still floating back, you can hit him with an aerial to knock him back some, since his horizontal air speed isnt exactly amazing, its still possible imo. Not like with Jiggs who can move backwards to avoid one attack, air dodge the next, and loose pretty much nothing in terms of height in the process of avoiding being gimped.


Of those characters listed, the ones with a *surprisingly* devastating aerial game are...


Kirby, Wario, Lucario (only because hes awesomely gimpy), Lucas, Peach, Pit.


I left out some of the characters with strong aerial attacks just because I felt they were not surprisngly devastating, Bowswer, DK and Ike are all heavy characters, so its expected for a lot of their moves to be able to KO well and aerials are no exception to that. Falcon is off because he still has the knee, and its at least as powerful as it was in Melee, just next to impossible to hit with. The rest dont have a paricularly strong air game in terms of gimpiness or unexpected power. ZSS might be an exception, but I dont really know how gimpy her air game can be, but I certainly dont think that its surprisingly powerful.



Now the last thing to do to this list is to apply the hint about ground attacks.


Id also like it if others would try this approach, since opinions may vary a little bit with this portion, but not nearly as much as when it comes to fitting the last part of the hint.

 

[Iris]

"Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent."

Zelda. Unlike last hint, which considered the character a top competitor, this one simply says underestimated, which Zelda is. She's not the greatest, but many people don't seem to know how much she's improved since Melee.

Her air game is pretty insane. It's not particularly good without sweetspots and good planning, but she DOES have, most likely, the hardest hitting aerials in the game. Her up-air's the strongest, her spike is third strongest, and I'm fairly certain no other aerial hits as hard as her lightning kicks. Unlike characters who can kill with aerials at around 100-120%, Zelda's kills at a healthy 60-80%.

"But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options other than to use one of their B attacks often."

This stumps me. Zelda's an obvious choice for relying on a single B move (remember, just one), but it's often disputed that she has a good ground game, and I personally think she's got a good amount of choices with quick smashes and d-tilt locks. Still, no one can deny that Din's Fire spamming isn't a widely accepted strategy.

"And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily."

Zelda's recover is bittersweet. The distance is great, as well as the ending attack to avoid edge-hogging, but her path is very predictable off the ledge, in both direction and wind-up, and therefore makes her moderately easy to punish.

 

[Steel]

I will say it's J-Money (jiggs)

 

[AlexX]

I got excited that it might be Ike until I read that on the ground they have to resort to their B-moves... Ike's B-moves are to be used sparingly, so it can't be him.

It can't be Olimar, either. Olimar has a pretty good ground game, too (especially with his legendary grabs).

After being wrong as many times as I have, I think I'll just give my thoughts on why it could/could not be any of my mains. It's hard to make effective calls with characters I don't main.

 

[goodkid]

Lucario-because his air game is incredible, his fair can combo into more fairs. He relies on aura sphere, and his smashes are pretty laggy, so sub-par ground game.

Zelda-I want to say her, but that would be too obvious of choice with the Din's Fire spamming, and she uses Nayru's Love a bit too, so it can't be her.

 

[Kiederen]

This makes the most sense to me. It seems like the logical choice out of what has been mentioned so far.

I agree, Olimar was the first one I thought of. My brother plays him and the sheer power behind his aerials never ceased to surprise me. Tether = gimpable by definition. The only discrepancy is on the line about the one good/spammable special, which for Olimar would be the forward special. If that line is implying that that attack is this characters ONLY practical GROUND move, then Olimar only half matches, as his D smash and F smash both have great power, speed and disjointed hitbox, however can be canceled by a well placed hit that kills the pikmin.

My second guess would have to be Zamus. Once again, tether = gimpable recovery. Her air game is risky, especially chasing off the edge because of her recovery, but it also packs a surprising punch, especially u-air (high jumps plus easily chained u-airs = fairly low percent kills off the top). Most of her ground moves are situational, and as it's her best or second best kill move, you'll see Zamus's forward special quite often, though it probably isn't spammable....

so I'd still put my money (if i had any) on Olimar...

Scratch that, I had forgotten about Olimar's grab game.

I think i've been convinced in favor of Zelda instead. I forgot to check the name, but whoever Iris made the argument for Zelda a few posts above me did a good job. I concur.

 

[manhunter098]

Its definitely not Jiggs, shes tough to gimp, and her B moves are not to be used frequently on the ground.
Rollout < Disjointed Hitbox

 

[Iris]

It's not really about an airgame that deals tons of damage or combos well, but one that kills at very low percentages. Lucario's got a great air game, but it's not capable of killing at extremely low percents.

 

[DanGR]

It HAS to be Olimar-

But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options other than to use one of their B attacks often.

 

[manhunter098]

Well to some extent the gimpiness applies. But for characters that were pretty much made to be, and its obvious that they are supposed to be, gimpy (pretty much this applies to Jigglypuff) I dont think that you can consider the air game to be a surprise in how good it is.



Its not Olimar, hes so easy to gimp that it pretty much KILLS his game. It doesnt take skill to gimp a tether that has no other options alongside it.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Ok, I know I was wrong about this week's character. But this time i KNOW it's Zelda.

The one B attack=Din's fire

Recovery bit fits her bills.

Aerial game, devastating

 

[Kiederen]

It HAS to be Olimar-

But Olimar does have some good options on the ground:

His grab range is great and it's fast.

His F Smash hits hard and fast as well.

U Smash is surprisingly hard to get through.

D Smash is effective at clearing space.

His B attacks have some use too:

If you're spamming your forward b, then you probably won't be getting back all of your pikmin, so neutral b is essential.

Down b has super armor frames, though that's about it. You can use it to save pikmin I suppose.

Up B is actually a decent anti-air attack to cover the diagonal. F smash for frontal approaches, Up B for diagonal, and U smash for approaches from above.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Zelda or Ganondorf

EDIT: Eh its definetly Zelda. Olimar is TOO easy to gimp.

 

[Kitamerby]

EDIT: NO WAY is it Sonic. He can NOT kill at low percent with his airgame easily.

Actually, recently most Sonic's have been working on gimp kills that become ineffective at moderate and high percents. However, he can't spam a B move effectively if an opponent has timing, has exceptional ground game, and his air game isn't TOO devastating when he isn't gimping. Also, you can't gimp Sonic. Sonic ALWAYS recovers. D:

this one is lucario.

Impossible. Lucario's ground game is incredible and just compliments his amazing air game. He has two useful B moves that aren't THAT great at spamming, and a very useful third one. His gimps aren't THAT common against most foes, and his recovery is more than "can be fine sometimes." He's also seen as a good character by many.

Edit: And Wario has a very strong ground game with his forward smash, plus his aerial game still isn't a "low-percent kill," except maybe his uair on light characters. Plus spamming is bike is stupid since it leads to him being gimped.

Now that I think about it, they might be talking about the Bite if it turns out to be Wario.

First Impression: ZSS. Her b-air and f-air are my number 1 and 2 kill moves. On the ground though there aren't as many options and f-B is a common ground move for sure. I think she is also underestimated (and underplayed), and her recovery is possible to be gimped, but you have to be smart about it because there are several options that she can use to get back.

Can't be Zamus. Her air game isn't devastating. It's fine, yes, but isn't THAT great. Her ground game is quite effective as well, and she can't really spam her Whip THAT often effectively.

Hmm, let's think about this logically though for a second, taking away the characters who's already been discussed.


"Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options other than to use one of their B attacks often. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily."

Who has extremely useful B moves on the ground?

Bowser
Fox
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Marth
Ness
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Sheik
Sonic
Toon Link
Yoshi
Wario
Zelda
Zamus

Kay, now who has a ground game with very few options?

Jigglypuff
Wario

Who's often underestimated?

Jigglypuff
Wario

Who's recovery is great, but can be gimped easily if they know what they're doing?

Wario

Who'

...Whoop, it must be Wario. :D

 

[Ants]

I've changed my mind, im convinced its ganondorf.

Hes underestimated, a lot of people consider ganondorf a crappy, slow character. He has strong aerials, his dair could KO at low percents. Alot of ganondorf players tend to use side B when on the ground..... over and over again. Ganondorf's recovery is gimpable, but its not terrible.

 

[Nelo Vergil]

As a Ganondorf main, there's no way it can be him,Ganondorf has plenty of ground options, as well only 3 of his aerials are really useful at ground level, and one depends on the characters height (unless there up in the air), theres no way it can be him. I'd have to guess Zelda or Olimar, most likely Olimar, maybe Lucario as well

 

[PiSToLZ]

Actually, recently most Sonic's have been working on gimp kills that become ineffective at moderate and high percents. However, he can't spam a B move effectively if an opponent has timing, has exceptional ground game, and his air game isn't TOO devastating when he isn't gimping. Also, you can't gimp Sonic. Sonic ALWAYS recovers. D:


Impossible. Lucario's ground game is incredible and just compliments his amazing air game. He has two useful B moves that aren't THAT great at spamming, and a very useful third one. His gimps aren't THAT common against most foes, and his recovery is more than "can be fine sometimes." He's also seen as a good character by many.
Now that I think about it, they might be talking about the Bite if it turns out to be Wario.

Can't be Zamus. Her air game isn't devastating. It's fine, yes, but isn't THAT great. Her ground game is quite effective as well, and she can't really spam her Whip THAT often effectively.

Hmm, let's think about this logically though for a second, taking away the characters who's already been discussed.


"Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options other than to use one of their B attacks often. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily."

Who has extremely useful B moves on the ground?

Bowser
Fox
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Marth
Ness
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Sheik
Sonic
Toon Link
Yoshi
Wario
Zelda
Zamus

Kay, now who has a ground game with very few options?

Jigglypuff
Wario

Who's often underestimated?

Jigglypuff
Wario

Who's recovery is great, but can be gimped easily if they know what they're doing?

Wario

Who'

...Whoop, it must be Wario. :D

Wario too bad if u think lucario
he has many ground options and his air game isnt that good.
zelda is possible but she has ground options
my vote is wario

 

[KonoK]

I'm really hoping that it's Kirby. He has a great aerial game he can spike you with dair, and WoP with his bair, but I'm not too sure about the B moves on the ground. A Kirby could keep inhaling, or us Final Cutter. His recovery is easily gimped, because he doesn't have aerial mobility, it's slow., and Final Cutter can be gimped by a well timed edgehog.

Yeah, I don't think it's Kirby. I just want it to be.

 

[SonicLucario]

I thought it was Sonic but you can't gimp him easily.I think it's Wario or Ganondorf.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

Olimar obv, i mean, the only other characters that are in this discussion would be lucas.

 

[Ants]

As a Ganondorf main, there's no way it can be him,Ganondorf has plenty of ground options, as well only 3 of his aerials are really useful at ground level, and one depends on the characters height (unless there up in the air), theres no way it can be him. I'd have to guess Zelda or Olimar, most likely Olimar, maybe Lucario as well

well since your a ganondorf main, how would you usually approach people on the ground? His up smash and uptilt seem kind of useless, his jab and f-tilt are pretty good though. His bair comes out pretty quick and his fair has amazing priority.

 

[psiRockinOmega]

ez

It's Ness.
















GG

 

[The Kurt]

Wario
10warios

 

[D13]

Wow, I suck at guessing.

I think the next one's Wario. Kitamerby did a pretty good evaluation.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Sorry guys, I was way too tired when I wrote the new hint. I made a quick update to it just now for ya'll though.

 

[sagemoon]

I am more convinced of Wario now... it was my first guess XD

 

[VersatileBJN]

I think the net one will be Ike

Nevermind he has ground options

 

[Germanydabassist]

It's probably not wario.
On the ground, he can still abuse his chaing down grab, and doesn't always have to resort to biking. The fart isn't good for fighting since it has to be frequently charged. AND DON'T INSULT WARIO'S RECOVERY D=<
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RGw_YyZ3Rr4&feature=related
Wario has an amazing recovery at around 30 seconds... he gets meteored by IKE and manages to recover. It's not merely a "good" recovery.

 

[Ayato]

Captain Falcon.

 

[Popertop]

It's Bowser.
He doesn't have anything against projectile spammers except his infinite jump.

 

[noobslayer]

Captain Falcon.

He's got it.

Fits all the criteria best imo.

 

[The_Dyne]

Sounds like Sonic to me...

 

[menofuntall]

It's probably not wario.
On the ground, he can still abuse his chaing down grab, and doesn't always have to resort to biking. The fart isn't good for fighting since it has to be frequently charged. AND DON'T INSULT WARIO'S RECOVERY D=<
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RGw_YyZ3Rr4&feature=related
Wario has an amazing recovery at around 30 seconds... he gets meteored by IKE and manages to recover. It's not merely a "good" recovery.

The Aether spike is a pretty weak one, especially at 30%. If he had survived a Dair, then that would've been a little more impressive.

I'm betting on Zelda. Many people seem to (or used to) forget about her, to some extent. A good Fair/Bair to the face will instantly kill you at like, 70 - 100%. Uair is the strongest in the game, iirc. Dair is an incredibly powerful spike, and Nair...well, I don't actually know the uses of the Nair. Naryu's Love is pretty much all she has against projectile spammers. Din's Fire is generally not spammable enough to counter other projectiles.

I actually don't have any clue about the long range part. >_> Farore's Wind is, I guess, a decent recovery move. The only problem is that you have to land on the stage or sweetspot the ledge, otherwise you get too much lag. Even then, it's quite punishable. Definitely one of the easier to gimp recoveries in the game.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Update #8: ?????

Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily.

Can you guess who next week's character will be?

It has to be Wario.

1) He's underestimated
2) Has a good aerial game that can KO at low percents
3) His ground game is bad and loses out to long range attacks and projectile spamming
4) His NeutralB attack "Bite" is his only defense on the ground to long range attacks
5) Has good recovery but can still be easily edgeguarded

 

[JhMS]

Yeah,im sure now.Wario...

 

[manhunter098]

After that update there is no way that its Zelda anymore. Her neutral B stops projectile spam.


I still REALLY think that we need to narrow it down by eliminating FIRST the characters with hard to gimp recoveries and a great aerial game (that doesnt necessarily have to be about power, just good at getting the job done quick).


This is the list I came up with by using that method of elimination, I *still have yet to apply* the special attack part of the hint to the list though. My process for getting this list is on page 83, and Id like to see a few other people make some lists with it as well, so we can get a good list of who is likely BEFORE the final part of the hint is applied. Then work with it from there.



Kirby, Wario, Lucario (only because hes awesomely gimpy), Lucas, Peach, Pit.

 

[KoalaBear]

Key Word= Underestimated so who does no one use with great aerials... Who has bad ground strokes? I'm thinking ike

 

[Yonder]

Next character: Luigi?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Key Word= Underestimated so who does no one use with great aerials... Who has bad ground strokes? I'm thinking ike

Ike doesn't have a spamable move.

-Ter

 

[matthewmilad]

i still think it is lucas because he has an awesome projectile game and his recovery is super hard to punish if you use his upb correctly

You can **** Lucas's Recovery, and you don't want to sit there and use it on the ground.

I mean Zelda is lighter and floatier than Falco, to start.

And the point I'm saying is that "Recovery" in this case seems to mean "All recovery methods." Falco's Fire Bird is pretty awful. Also, I don't see Falco's Phantasm being nearly as useful as Fayore's Wind on the ground.

ahahahahahahahahaha

Thank you for laughing with me. I'm glad there are smart people on here after all.

Zelda seems like a good choice, but the recovery on the ground doesn't make any sense at all. I still think it's either Toon Link or Pikachu.

that's just dead wrong. Most tier lists place her top half at the very least, and the ones I think seem most reasonable put her somewhere solidly in top third.

You are dead wrong. Intelligent ones put her at the top of the bottom third like I said:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546&highlight=japan+tier

Oh also:

Yes because when we resort to how good a character is we instantly resort to the 500,000,000 tier lists that have been made by Smash Boards users.

It's generally more constructive to prove me wrong instead of just being a ****.

Here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546&highlight=japan+tier

I think its either Zelda, Pit, or Pika.

Not even close to being Pit. His recovery is easily punishable.

zeldas recovery is punishable to anyone not named ike. its just not feasiable to use it against anyone quick who knows how far it goes, which is easy to figure out with enough practice

Thank you.

^^to elaborate, she has 16 possiblities, but how many are viable?

depending on placement on the stage, one of the sides may not be a viable direction. Going up will be punished, no matter in what direction, and going down/towards the opponent can be punished if he simply waits.

SO um, yeah, great in theory, but not when actually playing

Thank you.

she still normally has at least 4, that's enough to be unpredictible.

...it is abusable as crap...

Floaty makes things more punishable imo. The faster you fall the faster you hit the safety of the ground and gain even more methods to dodge attacks. While falling faster does make your ability to recover harder, it makes punishing your recovery harder too.

Second the Phantasm covers enough ground, in spite of being predictable that its difficult to punish on the ground, plus it has a huge hitbox, so its actually a viable option to do damage to your opponent. Startup on it is also faster than Fayore's Wind.

I highly doubt that it requires all of their recovery moves to be hard to punish. The statement could potentially apply to more than one move, but it definitely doesnt mean that all of their recovery options have to be hard to punish. Also, Im pretty sure that in context, recovery is singular, and only applies to one recovery move.

Thank you.

I'm sorry . It just made me laugh.

Have you ever played an actual brawl falco? I mean one that puts up a challenge? If you're questioning phantasm's usability on-stage in relation to farore's wind, you obviously haven't. Phantasm's disjointed hitbox and high speed makes it incredibly hard to punish. SH phantasms send the character into the air a considerable distance, and from there you can either SH phantasm them to spike them back into the ground to repeat, or start juggling the character. What can you do with farore's wind on the ground? Just for running away quickly, yes? I don't see how that's useful, especially since you can cover the same distance in the same or less time with two SH phantasms. Since melee, phantasm's start up time has dropped dramatically, the damage and knockback done has increased dramatically, and it goes a hell of a lot further. Phantasm went from melee turtle to brawl turtle, basically.

Thank you.

No, when they say recovery, they mean the character's recovery metagame. This refers to all methods of recovery. Fire bird makes his recovery suck, however phantasm more than makes up for it. Which is what makes his recovery hard to punish.

Thank you.

its totally marth

Lol quoted for awesome.

Just because Phantasm is good doesn't mean that Fire Bird doesn't count as part of his recovery, though. It's not his only recovery move, so you can't act like it is.

You're right that he has one great recovery move and one poor one, but if anything that averages his recovery out. As I said, if using the better one 75% of the time mattered, Ike wouldn't be considered to have such poor recovery since Ike players generally try to recover with Aether whenever possible due to being much harder to gimp compared to Quick Draw.

Ugh... where do these people come from?

I'm willing to bet money on Pit...

I mean, come on.

R.O.B. plays pretty darn similar to Pit, wouldn't you say?

I want to take your bet. Pit's recovery is punishable as crap, so it obviously wasn't him.

Okay, I'll accept that. I really haven't fought much Falco except the computers. .

Thanks for admitting you have no idea what you're talking about.

The hint reeks of Lucas.

Great projectile, excellent close-range fighting ability, intimidating and diverse recovery...

Once again, you don't sit there and use his recovery on the stage, and no one thinks Lucas is incredible.

Toon Link, Pit, or Dedede would be my guess.

Wrong wrong wrong. Read the description again and start kicking yourself please.

Falco has been updated. Now that Overswarm is in Ireland trying to catch leprechauns, LeeHarris is helping out by doing the synopsis and making the next thread. Speaking of the next thread, I put the hint for next week up too. I tried to avoid being too obvious, because this character is quite easy to spoil IMO. And I was quite tired when I wrote it, so hopefully I wont have to come back to redo the hint later.

Lol OWNED.