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Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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hmm... Next one could be Zelda.... she is a solid DDD counter, Din's is FANTASTIC long range, her up close defensive game is also amazing....

... nothing was mentioned on her aerial game... it could be zelda.

then again... her ability to KO isn't "surprising" Tink's is more surprising... not that we don't know he can kill... but that it doesn't look like he SHOULD be able to kill as easily as he does... but he's been doing decent in tourneys right?

I don't know for this one.
 

Shök

Smash Champion
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Jun 24, 2007
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Edit: I posted this a few days ago and made quite a few mistakes.
Let me rephrase this.

Hint:

Strong at close range with a great long range game and a surprisingly decent ability to KO, this character has had a lot of potential since Brawl was first released. But what happened? It seems like this character hasn't been holding up in tournaments, with a few exceptions, despite having only very few faults. Perhaps its because much of this character's strong points are situational, and very match-up dependent. This character has a few strong match-ups (watch out DeDeDe), but has to work hard to keep up with some other characters.


Okay Then. Let's Crack the code.

All The Characters who have not Been Reviewed:

Bowser
Donkey Kong
Fox
Ice Climbers
Ike
Kirby
Lucas
Mario
Olimar
Peach
Pikachu
Pit
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Wario
Yoshi
Zelda
Sheik
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Lucario
Luigi
Marth
Ness
Sonic
Toon Link

Now all those with a projectile:

Bowser
Fox
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Lucas
Mario
Olimar
Peach
Pikachu
Pit
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Wario
Yoshi
Zelda
Sheik
Lucario
Luigi
Ness
Toon Link

A great long range game:


Fox-Blaster. Nuff Said
Lucas-PK Whatever
Mario-Fireballs and FLUDD
Olimar-Pikmin rule!
Pikachu-Thunder Jolt and thunder
Pit-Arrows. Nuff Said
Pokémon Trainer- Lots
Samus-Missles, charge shot
Zero Suit Samus-Paralyzer
Zelda-Fireballz
Sheik-Needles and chain
Lucario-Force Palm and Aura sphere
Ness-See Lucas
Toon Link-It's like a mini link, man! This guy's loaded.

Surprisingly decent ability to KO:

Fox-Up Smash
Lucas-Up smash
Olimar-Pikmin are Surprisingly strong!
Pikachu-Smashes and thunder
Pokémon Trainer-Ivy Up Smash
Zero Suit Samus-Paralyzer to Side B
Zelda-What the **** Lightning Kick
Lucario-Gets stronger every hit
Ness-Not bad at all
Toon Link-F-Smash. Cry.

Lots of potential:

Fox-Best in Meele. Lotsa Pressure.
Lucas-Newcomer
Olimar-Newcomer
Pokémon Trainer-3 people, man!
Zero Suit Samus-Newcomer. Looked strong too.
Zelda-Was bottom in Melee. Has Jakked Moves.
Lucario-Aura. Cry.
Toon Link-Loaded w/ potential. Before it came out we knew he could own.

Very few faults:

Fox-Fast. Most Melee techniques remain
Lucas-Sick at Close Range and Projectile
Olimar-Small. Great Damage. Kill Moves. Ken Combo.
Zero Suit Samus-Paralyzing ownz just a little light.
Toon Link-See Lucas.

Now, I haven't been to many tournaments but I haven't heard of these people owning the scene.

Good Against dedede:

Fox-Hit and Run then blaster
Lucas-PK attacks keep him away and Usmash can kill when he is baited in.
Olimar-Not that great but still OK Cuz the penguin can't catch him while pikmin do the damage.
Toon Link-projectiles own him.

And now what?
These are my best guesses.
And also, I've heard people *cough* Izaw *cough* say it's Marth. I can see him fitting this description, but he has:
NO LONG RANGE GAME WHATSOEVER! And has no real advantage over Dedede.

Well, That's it.
We'll just wait and see.
 

edde

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i think fox mainly cause d3 can't grab him, his blaster scores great damage on tall chars and usmash is hell broken... also uair and bair have a great power + he has shine

now... TL... his dair is near impossible to miss on d3 cause his jumps are both easy to predict and hes a big target... his fsmash can take care of most chars, his aerials are too quick for d3, and projectiles can be used smartly to give enemies a hell of a time approaching
 

~Shao~

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And also, I've heard people *cough* Izaw *cough* say it's Marth. I can see him fitting this description, but he has:
NO LONG RANGE GAME WHATSOEVER! And has no real advantage over Dedede.
You know longe range doesn't have to mean projectiles right? Marth has good range because of his sword. It probably isn't him though, but it could be. I think it's toon link, but what do I know?
 

FEJunkie

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You know longe range doesn't have to mean projectiles right? Marth has good range because of his sword. It probably isn't him though, but it could be. I think it's toon link, but what do I know?
It depends on your definition of long-range. Thing's like Lucas' Pk fire can be argued as being long-range even though it's mid-ranged. That being said something like Marth's sword wouldn't really be considered as Long-ranged due to the fact you still have to be somewhat close to your opponent.
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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Hmm now that I consider it, it COULD be Yoshi. Again, just COULD. His Egg Throw is good enough to be described with 'Great Long Range Game'. I mean, you could basically hit anywhere with them, and they aren't too slow. He does have a surprising ability to KO, like (or may be just mostly) his upair. I don't know about the 'lots of potential part' though, as there are many Yoshi Haters out there. But those who did like Yoshi or did see that he does not suck as much as some think so, those did see a lot of potential in him. I don't know about the 'very few faults' part, as I don't see too clear of a definition for 'fault'. His recovery is wierder I guess, but I wouldn't call it a fault. The only fault I can think of, is slow Rolling Dodge. I guess you could say that he has a lot of faults though, just for being a character not of a Higher Tier. IMO he is about the same or better against DeDeDe than those most people list, like Fox, Lucas, Olimar, Toon Link (these I got from SHOK's opinion). DeDeDe can usually just play defensively by perfect shielding/ shielding attacks then grabbing them, and can use Waddle Dees to counter projectiles. But Yoshi gives me a hard time. His Egg Throw is annoying, since I can't use my Dees as a sheild, and throwing them up in the air at the eggs is a bit hard and the Dees are slower than the eggs. You can't just shield grab them when they come by, since Yoshi will usually approach with a bair, which hits very hard on his shield and usually hits him out of it. His Bair is fast too, so it's hard to use an attack to hit him first. Fair usually doesn't work, since Yoshi can jump over it. Yoshi's Bair has quite a lot of priority, or at least against DeDeDe. It has nice range too, so trying to use a Bair to counter Yoshi's Bair is a bit hard also.

He hasn't been doing THAT well in tournys (yes, many when you read this you will probably think something like: well, no duh! he sucks in tournys!, but he does do good in some tournys, or at least in Online Tournys, but I guess Onlines don't count:( ), despite Yoshi users loving his new buffs and seeing his potential.


I just thought of Yoshi when I was thinking of those that give my DeDeDe a hard time. Fox, Toon Link, Olimar, and Lucas may give a hard time, but I can still manage to get through the disadvantages. I feel that Yoshi is a lot more dangerous often times to me.
 

kupo15

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Idk, I think the "This character had a lot of potential" part refers to a newcomer. Thats what I think and I hope it is Pit. I have been waiting for them to talk about him ;)
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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Oh darn many times earlier I said that I'd look at the Character Matchup Chart by IvanEva and Ankoku's Char Rankings List, but I miss read the hint. The hint says ...thanks to OVERSWARM and Ankoku's POSTS... o well. And in my Yoshi guess/suggestion, I forgot to explain the situational part. Well, according to IvanEva's Char Matchup Chart, most of Yoshi's matchups are bad, and only a couple are good. A few are neutral. So, by looking at this, it shows that he is very 'match-up dependant'
 

Empy

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How could that description POSSIBLY fit ike?
"Strong at close range with a great long range game..."

Sorry guys, it's not Ike. You should've realized that at the first sentence.
Well I wasn't being all too serious. And I've guessed Ike each time this far. But let me prove it anyway.

Update #11:
Ike
?????

Strong at close range with a great long range game and a surprisingly decent ability to KO, this character has had a lot of potential since Brawl was first released. But what happened? It seems like this character hasn't been holding up in tournaments, with a few exceptions, despite having only very few faults. Perhaps its because much of this character's strong points are situational, and very match-up dependent. This character has a few strong match-ups (watch out DeDeDe), but has to work hard to keep up with some other characters.
Ike is strong at close range. He also has a great long range game, cuz his sword is really long. He also has a decent ability to KO because every single 1 of his moves can. Ike certainly had a lot of potential, but what happened? Suddenly, instead of "Ike is overpowered" there are all these "Ike sucks" topics. He hasn't been holding up in tournaments, with a few exceptions. You can see this in Ankoku's thread, where Ike is way lower with the new tourneys being counted rather than the older ones.

It's strong points really are situational, basically, all of his play is. And he can be amazing in match-ups with characters that just don't have the reach or the right projectile. DDD is a great example of this type of character (QD can hit Gordo without getting Ike damaged). On top, DDD is too slow to punish Ike, certainly if Ike jabs a lot. On top, Ike can very easily escape the chaingthrows. He also has to work very hard to keep up with some other characters.
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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And adding to that, QD could count as improving his long range game. And aether too, beacuse the first part of the attack is a projectile, and its good for hitting people who are standing near the edge while you're trying to get back on the stage by attacking,rolling, jumping, etc.

DDD isn't exactly too slow to punish Ike at all. If Ike spaces his aerials and attacks with the longest range possible, DDD can just run up (or if he's already there, he doesn't have to run up), then perfect shield, then follow up with a grab. May be only some of Ike's attacks will provide a long enough range and small enough starting and ending lag so that DDD can't be close enough/fast enough to grab him. But then again, DDD can just use Ftilt after perfect shielding, or just stay out of Ike's reach to Ftilt, or throw Waddle Dees, and such. I don't really understand the part when you said about Ike jabbing a lot, DDD could just shield and grab, unless if you mean that his A combo is fast so that DDD can't punish it?

Edit: and btw Empy, your explanation makes Ike fit into the hint pretty well. It could be him.

Edit 2: actually, nevermind, cus Ike doesn't give DDD a really hard time at all.
 

FEJunkie

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Ike is strong at close range. He also has a great long range game, cuz his sword is really long. He also has a decent ability to KO because every single 1 of his moves can. Ike certainly had a lot of potential, but what happened? Suddenly, instead of "Ike is overpowered" there are all these "Ike sucks" topics. He hasn't been holding up in tournaments, with a few exceptions. You can see this in Ankoku's thread, where Ike is way lower with the new tourneys being counted rather than the older ones.

It's strong points really are situational, basically, all of his play is. And he can be amazing in match-ups with characters that just don't have the reach or the right projectile. DDD is a great example of this type of character (QD can hit Gordo without getting Ike damaged). On top, DDD is too slow to punish Ike, certainly if Ike jabs a lot. On top, Ike can very easily escape the chaingthrows. He also has to work very hard to keep up with some other characters.
If all your moves can KO then it's not "surprisingly decent", thats great ability to KO. As for having potential, Ike has already hit his. His metagame developed really early because of how over hyped he was, but he doesn't really have much potential left(not to say he's been completely figured out).

As for the Dedede match-up, it is hardly in Ike's favor. Dedede can really punish Ike even if your spacing is spot-on. He can powersheild any of Ike's attacks(expect for the jab but even then he can just sheild it then dash grab him) and chaingrab him to the edge of the stage into a Ftilt which will then lead to an edgegaurd.

Ike doesn't have many good match-ups. His strong points are dependent on your opponents mistakes, otherwise he'll pretty much have a very hard time.

Oh and Ike doesn't have "very few faults", he has alot of faults and has to work hard in pretty much any match-up.

So yea...Ike is not this week's character.
 

Empy

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Edit: and btw Empy, your explanation makes Ike fit into the hint pretty well. It could be him.

Edit 2: actually, nevermind, cus Ike doesn't give DDD a really hard time at all.
A well, I tried. It worked better than I thought though.

If all your moves can KO then it's not "surprisingly decent", thats great ability to KO. As for having potential, Ike has already hit his. His metagame developed really early because of how over hyped he was, but he doesn't really have much potential left(not to say he's been completely figured out).
I'm not really wanting to go into depth with this. But Ike's metagame developed completely wrong in the beginning. People were way too focussed on QD and most still are. Hence the comments on Ike being easy to gimp. However, his current metagame is developing a lot around jabs, jab canceling, jab to grab etc. Also more used are other moves that speed him up nair is now more often canceled by hitting the stage. Catching opponents with a backwards jumped fair or with a fair when they try to come back to the stage. And to a certain extend purposely trading hits, as this mostly favors Ike. So yeah Ike's metagame certainly has developed but it might be hard to catch up.

As for the Dedede match-up, it is hardly in Ike's favor. Dedede can really punish Ike even if your spacing is spot-on. He can powersheild any of Ike's attacks(expect for the jab but even then he can just sheild it then dash grab him) and chaingrab him to the edge of the stage into a Ftilt which will then lead to an edgegaurd.

Ike doesn't have many good match-ups. His strong points are dependent on your opponents mistakes, otherwise he'll pretty much have a very hard time.

Oh and Ike doesn't have "very few faults", he has alot of faults and has to work hard in pretty much any match-up.

So yea...Ike is not this week's character.
Well the powershielding thing goes the other way around as well. Also, shielding the jab can easily lead to a grab or a stalled AA combo. Ftilt isn't too much of a threat against Ike, as most of DDD's follow ups from ftilt can be destoryed with a fair. Chaingrabbing against Ike is pretty dangerous for DDD. Jab can hit him and hurt him pretty bad as well. And Ike can also spotdodge with the right DI, so he has more than 1 option.

And Ike has some good match-ups. A lot of characters might seem hard in the beginning because of their projectile game but with more experienced players this won't matter as much.

As to Ike not being the character this week. I've guessed Ike every time so far and I can assure you that I'm going to be right. Probably sometime soon.
 

Kodachrome

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Hmm...Perhaps Fox? Fox's blaster stops waddles dead, his reflector sends gordos back, and I don't think Fox falls into D3's chaingrab list. He's also VERY quick, and his fair can easily hit D3 when done immediately from the ground. Not only that, but it lasts so long he can maneuver back out of hitting range when he whiffs it. Blaster spam>waddle spam. His reflector messes with D3's gimping, too, as does his illusion...His tilts pwn D3, as well as other fast fallers/large characters. Not only that, but D3 had better not use his recovery around Fox-at the height of his jump, fox's U-air can make for an extremely easy ceiling ko. Not only that, but Fox's blaster can be used to change directions quickly and mindgame on the approach...

Fox's matchups are situational, thanks to the nature of his projectiles and his reflector, as well as his speed and lack of range...I call fox, mostly just based on that D3 comment... <_<
 

cAm8ooo

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Why is Ike brought up almost every time. I just hope he gets done soon so we can all stop guessing him. (or last, cuz that would be funny)
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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Empy, yes the powershielding thing could go the other way, but remember, DDD's grab is a lot farther than Ike's.

Kodachrome, yes blasters stop waddles (acually i dont think they stop them, the waddles just stop themselves), but it should be thought the other way: Fox tries to hit DDD with blaster, but DDD uses waddles to block. That particular part would be a disadvantage of Fox, not of DDD.
 

Kodachrome

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Empy, yes the powershielding thing could go the other way, but remember, DDD's grab is a lot farther than Ike's.

Kodachrome, yes blasters stop waddles (acually i dont think they stop them, the waddles just stop themselves), but it should be thought the other way: Fox tries to hit DDD with blaster, but DDD uses waddles to block. That particular part would be a disadvantage of Fox, not of DDD.
Well, I'm not a campy fox-I'll use a shorthopped double laser to stop his waddles entirely in midair and land with no lag. i don't think D3 has the speed on his move to stop a shdl at a closer range, which is where he can use his waddles. :p Plus, waddle gimping with him is tougher thanks to that laser/illusion from a second jump.

So...I still say fox. :psycho:
 

kupo15

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Its olimar and here is my proof

Olimar destroys D3, btw. The lag from D3's attacks is enough to throw 3 (!!) pikmin on him, on average. You can rack up damage insanely fast, and the knockback of all of D3's attacks sends you up and out, which is perfect for Olimar.

What's better is that Olimar can actually have a more dangerous grab game than Dedede. For once, Dedede has to worry about getting grabbed. He can't chain grab Olimar, and Olimar can combo him to hell and back without much effort. Did I mention you can up-smash D3 as he's falling out of his up+b without much trouble?

The only problem Olimar ever really has is a Dedede that is setting himself up to throw out a few back airs, and all Olimar has to do there is run away or simply up+b Dedede! The angle is perfect to knock him away.


Lee, you got this? You are late :p
 

Crizthakidd

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yea its olimar. at first i thought he was broken lol but just dont let the pimin hit or stay on you. and he KO surprisingly well. and his recovery is very gimpable.
 

biohazard930

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Hasn't Olimar been doing fairly well in tournaments, though? He's number five for the summer rankings, and was mid-pack (B Rank) for the past tournaments. I don't think that's very bad.
 

kupo15

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Idk about how chars place in tournaments other then Pit and the obvious winners, but here is why I think it is olimar.
Can you guess who next week's character will be?

Thanks to Overswarm (and Ankoku), as I've borrowed liberally from their posts to make the hint.
He literally told us the next char because of what Overswarm said in the DDD discussion
 
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