Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[Shök]

*Sarcasm*Yeah.
This hint fits bowser like a size 2 glove.*Sarcasm*
LAWLZ.
(His size is prob 57)

 

[Blue sHell]

Then 38/39. Hardly damaging to my point.

Bowser's ISJR is alot better/applicable than almost everyone's. And plus his is also easier to do because of his forwardb. Yet no one still uses it. If an IC doesn't desync they are straight up not good ICs by the way, that's basic. And the chaingrabbing is also basic to them. I still really think it's Bowser but I guess it could be ICs technically too.

Also, no offense, but lol at the people who think Lucas can't approach.

 

[Snail]

Also, no offense, but lol at the people who think Lucas can't approach.

Whoops, forgot about that :/ IC it is, then...

 

[cutter]

Ok, I think it's time for the next update. We're waiting!

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

nah, hint 12 was given on monday, so even if problem 11 was solved before that, im pretty sure its 1 week AFTER the hint [12] was given, so it should come tomorrow. hopefully it wont be delayed so much.

for luigi, the unusual tactic could be using his 1 hit KO spike taunt for edgegaurding, it hits quite a bit below where he actually stands, not just where his foot is moving.

 

[infomon]

If an IC doesn't desync they are straight up not good ICs by the way, that's basic. And the chaingrabbing is also basic to them.

I think that ICs can be a very fearsome opponent without intentional desyncs, especially with chain-grabbing expertise. In fact I don't recall seeing any outright intentional desyncing in Brawl IC videos; they just play the synced game and use chaingrabs well, and occasionally use a desync when it's given (by a separating attack from the opponent, or a CG).

What intentional desyncing will do, is resolve the IC weaknesses. It gives them lots of approach options. It gives them an airgame. It gives them range. And it takes a helluva lot of skill to understand and control the diversity involved in this; IMO. And that's what the hint talks about; the "unusual technique" allowing the character to make up for its weaknesses.

For example, airgame: the IC Uair is extremely important to their game, and has a tall, thin hitbox. Suppose the opponent is above some ICs, who use Uair. The opponent can either avoid its hitbox horizontally, airdodge, or sometimes defeat its vertical range and smack the ICs from above. That's the usual, synced case. Now if the ICs had intentionally desynced themselves in advance, they have a lot of options. You can get Nana and Popo beside each other in the air using Uair, so the hitbox is wide as well as tall. You can get Nana to jump with the Uair, to act as a shield; so if they break through the height range, Popo is below to land a strong hit (maybe an up-smash!) while the opponent is swiping Nana; or maybe trading hits with her attack. And if the opponent dodges Nana's U-air, Popo can prepare an attack for when the dodge is ending. Suddenly, the IC air-game options are enormous. Knowing what to do, and when, and controlling the ICs independently throughout, requires mastery. I doubt any Brawl IC mains really have this down.

 

[Timbers]

Bowser's ISJR is alot better/applicable than almost everyone's. And plus his is also easier to do because of his forwardb. Yet no one still uses it. If an IC doesn't desync they are straight up not good ICs by the way, that's basic. And the chaingrabbing is also basic to them. I still really think it's Bowser but I guess it could be ICs technically too.

It sounds weird that Boozer would be "doomed to mid-tier."

Most people who care about his placement would consider that a blessing.

 

[BBQ°]

I think it's either Ice Climbers or Zero Suit Samus.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oops... misread the post above me... ignore thi >_<

 

[Pink-eye]

I think it's either Ice Climbers or Zero Suit Samus.

lack luster air game, yeah right, ZSS does not fit that part.

 

[Grunt]

i like nobody thought it was IC until like...now.
If it is IC i deserve a cookie.

 

[manhunter098]

People have been saying Ice Climbers since pretty much the day they made the hint.

 

[Shök]

It sounds weird that Boozer would be "doomed to mid-tier."

Most people who care about his placement would consider that a blessing.

After bottom tier in Melee, it's more than a blessing.

 

[JJR.O.B.]

i think it is the Ice Climbers

 

[rageagainst]

The 12th character is Zelda, without a doubt. It was tough to do that hint without giving it away, but since thats my main, I can tell who it is easily.

I think the tier list will doom her to mid tier, even though she has several great matchups (moreso than DK but since the tier list is done mostly off of tourny results... expect DK high tier). She has great potential, especially if someone (incredibly hard) learns to nail her kicks exactly when they mean to.

She has several horrible matchups, but these matchups are at least neutral to Sheik. Combined, Zelda/Sheik have NO bad matchups.

Overall Zelda has a lot more better matchups than sheik, and overall more potential, but the combined character Shek-->Zelda has amazing potential, and thats how I'm trying to use Zelda, though it takes some practice and mindgames to setup.

EDIT:

Wow no one else thinks its zelda? Zelda at the surface has a GREAT air game, yet after using her extensively, you'll find that all (except nair) of her airials require setup and usually for punishing. She has a very small approach game at best, and it is very hard to make an offensive zelda, yet people who know her inside out can make her absolutely deadly (Ithink hawaii's top tier is Zelda (darkmusician)).

And there is a very unique strategy that overcomes all her weaknesses, yet it is tough to do, and it is using Sheik and Zelda together in a single match. If somene can master this it will make her potential skyrocket.

Its a perfect description of Zelda, its sad that there are so little Zelda mains no one else realizes it

 

[biohazard930]

The 12th character is Zelda, without a doubt. It was tough to do that hint without giving it away, but since thats my main, I can tell who it is easily.

I think the tier list will doom her to mid tier, even though she has several great matchups (moreso than DK but since the tier list is done mostly off of tourny results... expect DK high tier). She has great potential, especially if someone (incredibly hard) learns to nail her kicks exactly when they mean to.

She has several horrible matchups, but these matchups are at least neutral to Sheik. Combined, Zelda/Sheik have NO bad matchups.

Overall Zelda has a lot more better matchups than sheik, and overall more potential, but the combined character Shek-->Zelda has amazing potential, and thats how I'm trying to use Zelda, though it takes some practice and mindgames to setup.

EDIT:

Wow no one else thinks its zelda? Zelda at the surface has a GREAT air game, yet after using her extensively, you'll find that all (except nair) of her airials require setup and usually for punishing. She has a very small approach game at best, and it is very hard to make an offensive zelda, yet people who know her inside out can make her absolutely deadly (Ithink hawaii's top tier is Zelda (darkmusician)).

And there is a very unique strategy that overcomes all her weaknesses, yet it is tough to do, and it is using Sheik and Zelda together in a single match. If somene can master this it will make her potential skyrocket.

Its a perfect description of Zelda, its sad that there are so little Zelda mains no one else realizes it

My one problem with Zelda is the unique strategy that's difficult to use effectively in a real match and that takes quite a bit of skill. Sure, this could be interpreted to be the Zelda/Shiek combo, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Plenty of people are good with two characters, and thus I find it odd to mention essentially "being good with two characters" to take "quite a bit of skill." And for the difficult to use part, it's not that hard, is it? I mean, Zelda has knockback like no one else. Knock the opponent of the stage, and you can safely change to Shiek, right?

 

[infomon]

My one problem with Zelda is the unique strategy that's difficult to use effectively in a real match and that takes quite a bit of skill. Sure, this could be interpreted to be the Zelda/Shiek combo, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Plenty of people are good with two characters, and thus I find it odd to mention essentially "being good with two characters" to take "quite a bit of skill." And for the difficult to use part, it's not that hard, is it? I mean, Zelda has knockback like no one else. Knock the opponent of the stage, and you can safely change to Shiek, right?

Wouldn't you use Sheik to rack up damage, and then KO with Zelda? Or am I crazy?

I don't know much about Zelda, but I gotta say, rageagainst's argument was the first to convince me for #12. I can't decide now between Zelda and ICs. I quote the hint,

Also, there is an unusual strategy that is not often used that can be taken to balance this character's weaknesses, although very few people who use this character use the strategy as it is difficult to do in a real match, and require quite a bit of skill.

The emphasis is mine. That word "unusual" -- switching between Zelda and Sheik is not often used, but I wouldn't say it's unusual. It's her down-B; pretty darn obvious, just not often used and difficult to pull off effectively. Alternatively, IC desyncing is pretty darn unusual, as well as underused and difficult. So I'd say ICs fit this part of the hint better. But the approach, air-game, and KOing tips might describe Zelda more than ICs.

 

[viparagon]

Its probably ICs, but I think it could also be zelda or zamus

 

[rathy Aro]

Using zelda and shiek doesn't take that much skill. You just learn 2 characters, its really no different than having a main and a second.

Desyncing is hardly unusual at this point. We've seen it for years now. Playing 2 chars isn't unusual either. >.>

ISJR is very unusual. The rest of the stuff I wouldn't know, because I don't get to play against any bowsers, but as for unusual tech bowser fits perfectly.

 

[Kirby Magatsu]

I still think it's IC

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

OK my official answer is now Bowser. I just played him today, and i found out that it was very hard to approach, just like the hint said. It fits him perfectly. The 'Unusual Technique' is the ISJR, since it 'makes up for his weaknesses'. His weakness for his aerials is made up a lot because of the ending lag when you touch the floor, and you can be punished easily. So, ISJR makes up for that weakness because its like L cancelling in the sense that you can do an aerial without the landing lag. His aerials seem good, as in they just seem 'usable' and handy, but they really aren't too usable, at least they're not esay. Like, fair looks like it has some nice reach, at least compared to in melee, but the reach is still little and the 'span' of the attack isn't very wide at all.

Another unusual technique could also be suiciding if you're at like 100% and they're at like 0%, but im pretty sure that's not the one they're talking about.

The hint fits Bowser perfectly.

Edit: and also its been 1 week, the hint was posted on Monday, and now it's Monday. I hope they post it soon

Edit 2: The 'doomed to mid tier' is throwing this off a little, but in the Tier list disc thread, bowser's usually put at bottom of mid or top of low, so im guessnig that what they mean is that if bowser's aerials had less landing lag, and his aerials were as good as they looked, then he could be in the high tier, or a tier higher than mid.

 

[mood4food77]

zamus anyone?

 

[Johnthegalactic]

ZS Samus has great aerial game, so N.O.!

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

no it cant be zamus. and also IMO its more like the other way, her aerials dont look good but they are. the hint says that the aerials look good but really aren't

 

[otg]

Whoever is in charge of this thread is terrible about updating it regularly.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Ike,mario or umm urr lucario.

 

[manhunter098]

Lucario has an amazing air game...so it cant be him.

 

[biohazard930]

Wouldn't you use Sheik to rack up damage, and then KO with Zelda? Or am I crazy?

Yeah, you're right. However, it doesn't make much difference, as you say later in your point.

OK my official answer is now Bowser. I just played him today, and i found out that it was very hard to approach, just like the hint said. It fits him perfectly. The 'Unusual Technique' is the ISJR, since it 'makes up for his weaknesses'. His weakness for his aerials is made up a lot because of the ending lag when you touch the floor, and you can be punished easily. So, ISJR makes up for that weakness because its like L cancelling in the sense that you can do an aerial without the landing lag. His aerials seem good, as in they just seem 'usable' and handy, but they really aren't too usable, at least they're not esay. Like, fair looks like it has some nice reach, at least compared to in melee, but the reach is still little and the 'span' of the attack isn't very wide at all.

You say the ISJR is his "unusual technique," a strategy that keeps him in the air, correct? Then you go on to say that his aerials aren't that great. Individually, the two points seem to fit the clue, but they seem a bit mutually exclusive. I mean, it's possible, but even that gray area makes him not "perfect."

 

[KingK]

It's not unusual for Bowsers to take advantage of the ISJR; in fact, that's a big part of their game, as far as I know.

On the other hand, not many Zelda players take advantage of the fact that they can switch back and forth between Zelda and Shiek. Therefore it is an unusual strategy. As for it requiring skill, well, that's debatable. However, I do think it might be rather difficult to find natural, advantageous openings for a switchover.

I'm not saying #12 is Zelda, but based on the arguments that have been put forward, I could see that as a possibility. I'm less inclined to believe that it is Bowser.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why is it nobody seems to mention Bowser's chain grab when using him to fulfill the hint?

Also, anyone know when the next character will be posted? I am (mildly) surprised that this week's character hasn't been revealed yet.

 

[GoForkUrself]

Yoshi has aerials that look great, but they actually are just average at best. He has difficulty approaching, but can KO pretty well. His Faux Super Armor frames on his Double Jump could certainly qualify as an unusual technique that is difficult to put into practice in battle. For those that don't know, Yoshi has many fake SAF's on his double jump(nearly the whole second jump). It is easy to use that effect for things like recovering, but it is much more difficult to use this effect in combination with an attack, since then you only get a few SAF's instead of dozens. It is priceless to jump out and use the SAF against a TL UpB with a fair spike(WTF just happened, that hit you!)
The only thing that makes me not say it's Yoshi is that I don't see him as mid-tier. He is at best a low tier character. So I still stick with Bowser. Just wanted to give some food for thought.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Ike,mario or umm urr lucario.

lucario has a good air game and a bad ko game, and no special approach technique

 

[Kitamerby]

lucario has a good air game and a bad ko game, and no special approach technique

False. Lucario KO's very well when it comes down to it. He just won't be getting you dead at 80%. >_>

Also, he has a few advanced approaches, but they aren't enough to qualify him.


Anyways, I'm also curious about Yoshi, now. Dragonic Reverse/Waveyoshing is DEFINITELY an unusual technique, but I'm still rooting for the Ice Climbers.

 

[Morrigan]

What the hell is with that name? "Dragonic Reverse". WTF?

 

[Browny]

waveyoshing...

LOL

and dragonic reverse is an awesome name, far more cooler than angelic step

 

[FlashGearz]

I like Angelic Step better then Dragonic Reverse. But I think it'sbecause it sounds like K-style moves

 

[Timbers]

Anyways, I'm also curious about Yoshi, now. Dragonic Reverse/Waveyoshing is DEFINITELY an unusual technique, but I'm still rooting for the Ice Climbers.

If Yoshi got midtier, it'd be a blessing. Saying he's doomed to midtier doesn't fit him (or Bowser) very well lol

I like Angelic Step better then Dragonic Reverse. But I think it'sbecause it sounds like K-style moves

Anything with "step" in the name is k-style esque.

 

[HipsterKid]

My first thought was, indeed, Zelda.
That's probably just me though.
Being a Zelda main and all.

But, in the Tags, does it not say "ice climber for number 12"?
I'm not sure if there's just something I don't know about because it did seem a bit obvious...

 

[Timbers]

people can edit tags lol, pay no attention to them.

Zelda's a viable option, but I don't know what her "super difficult advanced technique" would be.

 

[HipsterKid]

Oh okay. That is something that I am not so much aware of.
I don't think Zelda is the one for this one because it says the character doesn't have much of an approach.
Zelda can, for the most part, Din's Fire people into the spacing she wants.
That's my only lead. But I'm going on Ice Climbers anyway.