Union of Darkness
Smash Ace
Bowser. When it comes to who people think is useless, Bowser trumps Ike. And once locked in a string of moves it's hard for Bowser to recover.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Snake and G&W say hai.
isomorphism
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 68
Generally, though, "not simply good," while technically it could mean "not good," isn't used that way--especially when an endorsement like "essential" is used after it. Pit's arrows fit that hint much better than Yoshi's, and to be honest I think Pit probably fits better as a character overall (except possibly for the "MK counter" part, I really don't know anything about that).
TheWii
Smash Journeyman
Its Yoshi.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Pit's Arrows aren't simply good now? I thought they were like one of the best Projectiles in the game!
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Sounds like Bowser or Yoshi
Johnthegalactic
Smash Lord
your right, i use yoshi sometimes cause he is such a cool dinosaur, and he can fit this description, especially the whole underused thing.
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
Opfer
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 56
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but just a quick question: What are "QDS Pivots"? I've searched for it but it didn't come up with anything helpful.
I'd also say either Yoshi or Ike.
isomorphism
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 68
...Right. They're not simply good, but essential. Which would exactly fit the hint, which was sort of my point. Or, if you'd prefer a slight rephrasing, "Pit's arrows aren't just good moves. They're absolutely essential to his game!" Since "simply" in this case pretty much means "just" I'm not sure how you can read the sentence and say that he's calling the specials bad.
biohazard930
Smash Apprentice
Sigh. More people need to frequent English class.
"This character also has some specials that are not simply good, but are nearly essential to using this character well..."
It means that the specials are beyond "simply" good. They surpass "good" in that they're quite good (with respect to the character) and/or varied in their uses.
"This character also has some specials that are not simply good, but are nearly essential to using this character well..."
It means that the specials are beyond "simply" good. They surpass "good" in that they're quite good (with respect to the character) and/or varied in their uses.
Tony_
Smash Ace
Its Ganon.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Quick Double Stick Pivots, Just search "Quick Pivot Grabs" or the lesser said "Auto Pivor Grabs" Because there's two variations of it, I call it either QDS (Quick Double Stick), or QSS (Quick Single Stick). Plus, it makes it sound more technical. Personally, I find Double Stick better and more reliable. It's not really a Yoshi only Technique, but it really only benefits Yoshi (and Lucas too), so I classify it as such.
And I'm getting confused on that sentence, I'm reading it as "Not good, but still important to the character to use". Even if Pit does fit into that, he doesn't really fit into the other sections of the hit at all
biohazard930
Smash Apprentice
guys...its obviously mk or wolf or g&w or snake or diddy or rob or falco or ganon or link or ddd or toonlink or zelda or samus or captain falcon or pikachu or marth
10peopleignoringOP
10peopleignoringOP
RedPeppers
Smash Ace
Sliq that vid made me sad man. I miss Melee.
As to a guess I'm trying to think of who would have inspired OS at SaC......
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
Eh, now I get what the hint means about specials being essential.
lol never mind Ike, your specials are situational and crappy.
Bowser's over b is epic, but how useful are any other special attacks? Are we saying up b is essential because it's a recovery? And I dont see fire being essential, although it's useful, lol.
lol never mind Ike, your specials are situational and crappy.
Bowser's over b is epic, but how useful are any other special attacks? Are we saying up b is essential because it's a recovery? And I dont see fire being essential, although it's useful, lol.
isomorphism
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 68
We are all reading it as "Not JUST good, but also essential to the character's game," since that's what "simply" means in that context. I don't think anyone else is reading it the way you are.
colored blind
Smash Journeyman
Dude. Samus. Zair ftw.
isomorphism
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 68
"Some specials" != "all specials" so that works fine for Bowser. Which is not to say that it's actually referring to Bowser.
Mmac
Smash Lord
But there would have been an "Also" in that sentence for it to be like that.
I dunno, I'm not good at English, but I'm confident thats not what they mean
I dunno, I'm not good at English, but I'm confident thats not what they mean
Opfer
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2006
- Messages
- 56
Cool, thanks for clearing that up, I'll look into it later.
As for the "This character also has some specials that are not simply good, but are nearly essential to using this character well...", I guess one could interpret that as either "better than good" or "not great, but still needed".
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
No I wasn't learning anything. But your post didn't even discribe Marth. It could be any character. I have visited the Marth forums enough to know your post was crap.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
M.K
Level 55
I think it might be Donkey Kong...
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
I think it's Donkey Kong or Bowser. Both can be gimped. I think the punishing of attacks refers to Bowser though.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,542
- Location
- Brooklyn
- NNID
- legendnumberM
- 3DS FC
- 2595-2072-2390
- Switch FC
- 531664639998
#17 is the Hedgehog. Sonic the Hedgehog. He has specials that suck in general, but have to be used in order to use Sonic effectively... kinda like an oxymoron, but the truth is the truth. You have to be super precise with him, and if you don't, you're screwed.
Yup, it's Sonic.
Yup, it's Sonic.
YoshiBomb
Smash Apprentice
A bunny may be saved but Idk
isomorphism
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 68
The Fortress has some cool properties though, doesn't it? Or am I thinking of something else?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say Ike.
Even most Ike mains are convinced he's never going to make it in the competative scene. After all, he has no real combos, only 4 or 5 fast attacks, and because he is heavy Falco and Pikachu can chaingrab him to some painful percentages. However, pretty much all characters have 4 or 5 attacks dedicated to dealing damage while the rest are situational, and Snake/Dedede are doing well despite being easy to CG, so in theory he has all he needs to do well.
Metaknight seems like a terribly matchup for Ike, and most Ike mains would agree on that, but Ike has better range and is known for KO-ing even the heaviest opponents at relatively low percentages, and MK is a real lightweight.
Next up... Well, Ike's specials aren't "good" per se, but proper use of them is very important to using him well. Quick Draw is important to getting around fast while being careful it doesn't hit (since if shielded he is wide open, but if it misses there's virtually no cooldown), Aether is good for building up damage if an opponent is above you, and Eruption is one of his better kill moves (even without any charging) and along with Aether has some SA frames he can use should he ever need them. Counter requires some prediction and must be used sparingly because of that, but has its uses as well. His tilts and smashes are all legendary for being hard to hit with (save his u-tilt, which is one of his fast moves) and KO-ing well. The only problem is that they require a decent amount of setting up in order to pull off, as if he whiffs or they get shielded, he's wide open. His aerial game is arguably stronger than his ground game, but again, with delay and/or cooldown on most of them, he's in trouble if he doesn't hit the opponent. However, if he does hit the opponent is really going to feel it, so it's a high-risk with a high-payoff. Ike may be one of the easiest to punish, but he's also one of the better punishers.
Last we've got how badly he can be punished... Well, the big one is his recovery. Quick Draw is one of the easiest recoveries to stop, as if all else fails the opponent can just eat the blow to force you to fall to your doom. Good Ikes will do what they can to avoid this, such as use it immediately before the opponent gets a chance to interrupt it, or keep them guessing as to whether they're going to aim for the stage or the ledge, but it's still far more preferable to use Aether. However, even Aether can be gimped if the opponent knows what they're doing and can smack him between when his SA frames end and when he'd have grabbed the ledge, or can time ledge invincibility so that they can't be knocked off by the attack.
Even most Ike mains are convinced he's never going to make it in the competative scene. After all, he has no real combos, only 4 or 5 fast attacks, and because he is heavy Falco and Pikachu can chaingrab him to some painful percentages. However, pretty much all characters have 4 or 5 attacks dedicated to dealing damage while the rest are situational, and Snake/Dedede are doing well despite being easy to CG, so in theory he has all he needs to do well.
Metaknight seems like a terribly matchup for Ike, and most Ike mains would agree on that, but Ike has better range and is known for KO-ing even the heaviest opponents at relatively low percentages, and MK is a real lightweight.
Next up... Well, Ike's specials aren't "good" per se, but proper use of them is very important to using him well. Quick Draw is important to getting around fast while being careful it doesn't hit (since if shielded he is wide open, but if it misses there's virtually no cooldown), Aether is good for building up damage if an opponent is above you, and Eruption is one of his better kill moves (even without any charging) and along with Aether has some SA frames he can use should he ever need them. Counter requires some prediction and must be used sparingly because of that, but has its uses as well. His tilts and smashes are all legendary for being hard to hit with (save his u-tilt, which is one of his fast moves) and KO-ing well. The only problem is that they require a decent amount of setting up in order to pull off, as if he whiffs or they get shielded, he's wide open. His aerial game is arguably stronger than his ground game, but again, with delay and/or cooldown on most of them, he's in trouble if he doesn't hit the opponent. However, if he does hit the opponent is really going to feel it, so it's a high-risk with a high-payoff. Ike may be one of the easiest to punish, but he's also one of the better punishers.
Last we've got how badly he can be punished... Well, the big one is his recovery. Quick Draw is one of the easiest recoveries to stop, as if all else fails the opponent can just eat the blow to force you to fall to your doom. Good Ikes will do what they can to avoid this, such as use it immediately before the opponent gets a chance to interrupt it, or keep them guessing as to whether they're going to aim for the stage or the ledge, but it's still far more preferable to use Aether. However, even Aether can be gimped if the opponent knows what they're doing and can smack him between when his SA frames end and when he'd have grabbed the ledge, or can time ledge invincibility so that they can't be knocked off by the attack.
biohazard930
Smash Apprentice
Grunt
Smash Master
Yeah, because Sonic gets edgehogged all the time, amirite?
Popertop
Smash Champion
Bowser relies on his specials as such:
Fortress: Out of shield damage, Clanks with a wide majority of attacks, invincible on startup (1 frame), great move to use under pressure as it is hard to punish (you can move away after you hit them or if you hit their shield), kills at 130% and a couple aerial mindgames as well as punishing spot dodgers/rollers.
Slam: Another option out of shield for massive damage (!), used in "claw hop" approach, good for mindgames, another way to punish spot dodgers and shields, extremely useful as an air grab.
Flame: This is Bowser's primary spacing move used in conjunction with Ftilt,very useful in Short hop approach, builds damage very fast (10% at least every time you get them in the middle of it), gimps some recoveries (Flame tickle against bad recoveries is magical, also limits spacie options off stage), punish spot dodgers and shields, completely overrides some projectiles, can be angled for various platform/stage games.
Bomb: His least used special, although it's not utterly useless. Good for beating some aerial approaches (only if you guess right), very strong, kills at around 90%, can be used to ledge stall/quickly get to the ledge from above, great in teams when they are distracted with partner.
That's about it for his specials I think. His aerials are huge risk/reward. Uair kills at 80% on most chars, Fair is good approach and combos into itself situationally, Nair has okay priority, Bair is a great kill move off stage/edgeguard.
His tilts are used for spacing, all deal good damage/knockback, and all kill past 120%, utilt kills at around 90%. Ftilt is very good range for it's speed as well as being disjointed (goes through MK's tornado). Dtilt is okay speed, hits twice, and kills early as well as having a very nice knockback angle. Utilt helps Bowser control platforms above him and kills early, startup is good, some ending lag.
His smashes are all using for punishing.
If you space something wrong, you will get Fsmashed, and you will die.
If you guess wrong coming down on Bowser, you will get Usmashed, and you will die.
If you spot dodge too much, eat a dsmash and die probably, and then get Fsmashed later and die anyway.
Fortress: Out of shield damage, Clanks with a wide majority of attacks, invincible on startup (1 frame), great move to use under pressure as it is hard to punish (you can move away after you hit them or if you hit their shield), kills at 130% and a couple aerial mindgames as well as punishing spot dodgers/rollers.
Slam: Another option out of shield for massive damage (!), used in "claw hop" approach, good for mindgames, another way to punish spot dodgers and shields, extremely useful as an air grab.
Flame: This is Bowser's primary spacing move used in conjunction with Ftilt,very useful in Short hop approach, builds damage very fast (10% at least every time you get them in the middle of it), gimps some recoveries (Flame tickle against bad recoveries is magical, also limits spacie options off stage), punish spot dodgers and shields, completely overrides some projectiles, can be angled for various platform/stage games.
Bomb: His least used special, although it's not utterly useless. Good for beating some aerial approaches (only if you guess right), very strong, kills at around 90%, can be used to ledge stall/quickly get to the ledge from above, great in teams when they are distracted with partner.
That's about it for his specials I think. His aerials are huge risk/reward. Uair kills at 80% on most chars, Fair is good approach and combos into itself situationally, Nair has okay priority, Bair is a great kill move off stage/edgeguard.
His tilts are used for spacing, all deal good damage/knockback, and all kill past 120%, utilt kills at around 90%. Ftilt is very good range for it's speed as well as being disjointed (goes through MK's tornado). Dtilt is okay speed, hits twice, and kills early as well as having a very nice knockback angle. Utilt helps Bowser control platforms above him and kills early, startup is good, some ending lag.
His smashes are all using for punishing.
If you space something wrong, you will get Fsmashed, and you will die.
If you guess wrong coming down on Bowser, you will get Usmashed, and you will die.
If you spot dodge too much, eat a dsmash and die probably, and then get Fsmashed later and die anyway.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
What, no Ivysaur?
Punishable, essential b attacks, mistakes with him deadly, outranges MK, dash attack has more priority than MK's tornado, considered bad, and takes A LOT of patience to master (I've been trying for months, and PT forced switching hasn't helped).
Punishable, essential b attacks, mistakes with him deadly, outranges MK, dash attack has more priority than MK's tornado, considered bad, and takes A LOT of patience to master (I've been trying for months, and PT forced switching hasn't helped).
Mmac
Smash Lord
I think they would do PT as one character. Unlike Sheik and ZSS, you NEED to use all 3 to use PT Good
Popertop
Smash Champion
Read my post plox.
Popertop
Smash Champion
Why does everyone ignore my posts?!?!
Monshou_no_Nazo
Smash Journeyman
I'm going to actually guess this time and say Yoshi.
RikotheFoxKid
Smash Apprentice
NOW it's Sonic!