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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

Ganonsburg

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I'm saying it's a tie then. If Luigi can't see Yink (Clinton simply dodged the question last time), but Yink can't hurt Luigi (although he can see Luigi via Lens of Truth), then neither one will get hurt unless both of them are throwing out random attacks. However, Yink won't be throwing out random attacks after he learns that he can't hit Luigi, so only Luigi will be throwing out attacks. But Luigi can't see Yink, and Yink can see Luigi, so it would be fairly easy to dodge Luigi's attacks.

Therefore, tie.

:034:
 

_clinton

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I would not go as far as to say making something akin to the lens of truth would be as easy as you make it seem.
Yes, I'm sure it is more impressive than the technology that is seen in the Mario Universe. So A time machine has been made by a certain professor for starters.

Hell pretty much every canon from this thread has better technology.

I'm saying it's a tie then. If Luigi can't see Yink (Clinton simply dodged the question last time),
lol what? :psycho:

I've provided in game proof from at least two games that the boos do a skill that is a lot better than just the plain invisibility Yink has (**** they attack in groups even and some of the stronger ones aren't "shy"). And Weegee can see them just ****ing fine/good enough. Hell Weegee's is good enough to the point where he can fool the boos themselves.

They can move through solid objects and become invisible.

Hell some of them have teleport skills as well.
 

Diddy Kong

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I say some of the match ups like:
-Falcon vs. Diddy/Ike
Vs Diddy might need a change yeah. But Diddy also has the Barrel Jetpack and Gyrocopter so how can Falcon even reach him? Vs Ike I disagree. Falcon cannot really hurt Ike.

-Yoshi vs. Pikachu/Pichu
Vs Pichu, Yoshi could win. Not vs Pikachu imo.

-Bowser vs. Ike
Who won, who lost? I'm guessing Ike won, cause of Disarm. Might become a draw I think.

-Sonic vs. Ike/Ganondorf/Mewtwo
Ganon should beat Sonic. Draw vs Mewtwo is fine enough really and Ike... is Ike. This blessing of him really needs some more discussion.

-Mario vs. Kirby/Samus/Ganondorf
Dunno about Kirby, they seem pretty even. Samus and Ganondorf are still a league above Mario imo.

-Pit vs. Ike
Ike should win.

-PT vs. Samus/Peach
PT would beat Peach. Not sure about Samus, cause she can kill the trainer pretty easily with her weapons. Or, somehow a Pokemon could completely destroy Samus before she fires of coarse.

-Zamus vs. Link/Roy
She should lose against both. Hell, IIRC even in the Deadliest Brawler ZSS is lower ranked than Link. Roy has the Sword of Seals and stuff. He's also pretty powerful.

-Peach vs. Zelda
Peach should win maybe.

-Luigi vs. Ganondorf/Samus
How is anyone gonna beat Ganondorf anyway? Vs Samus, same as with Mario, Luigi is outclassed simply.

-Olimar vs. Pikachu/Pichu
Should remain the same imo. Not too sure about Pichu.

-MK vs. Tink
If you truely wanna go all cannon about Toon Link, the Wind Waker is more dangerous to Meta Knight than before. Storms = bad for the Halberd. Pretty sure Toon Link could beat Meta Knight with the sword as well.

-Ness vs. Peach/Samus
Peach: yes. Samus: still no.

-Lucas vs. MK/Samus/Bowser
Meta Knight: maybe, but I still think no. Can Lucas really crash the Halberd? I don't really think so. Samus: no. Bowser: depends on whats allowed for him, really.

-Wario vs. Pikachu/Diddy/DK
Pikachu: agreed. Diddy: still has Barrel Jetpack, Gyrocopter with its equipment. Diddy still has a decent shot. DK: a draw, at worst. Wario isn't beating him at least.

-Snake vs. Tink
Who won, who lost? Toon Link still has the magic armor. Ice arrows are pretty dangerous to Snake unless he can stop them. If Toon Link won, I agree with it.

-Fox vs. Ike
Again, Ike is kinda iffy. If you can explain how maybe?
 

Ganonsburg

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You know, technically Luigi is faster than Yink by far, better off up close and far away because he doesn’t have to use a bow string for long rang combat, and also can get close w/o having to worry about being hit because of what his vanish powers do in the 1st place (yeah, sense boos can only be hurt when they are trying to attack, I’m going to say the same for Luigi, even said ghost cap sort of backs it up because Luigi is pretty much 100% immune to damage when using it).
The question was if Luigi could see Link. None of your answers actually addressed the question. You were just saying how Luigi might be able to hit Yink while Yink is invisible. Doesn't do any good if he can't see Yink. That's why I said you dodged the question, because you provided an answer, but it wasn't the answer to the question at hand.

:034:
 

PowerBomb

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You guys DO know you can still revisit those MU's for more arguments, right? Just do one at a time though, it gets really tough to look through everything (and it gets clogged up with various topics as well -> disorganized).

Samus vs. PT = Samus

The stacked Beam just bums through everything.
 

ElPanandero

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Well the PT samus thing comes down to wether o rnot Dialga has th epower to slow time down enough to avoid rapid blasts, where he can set up his pokemon to actually stand a chance. He'd have to slow time, set up some sort of protect poke and use earthquake or something to throw samus off, fly out of initial **** range etc.

It seems with most match-ups it comes down to a single point that needs deciding: The extent of Ike's blessing (for most of his fights), The extent of Dialgia/Palkia's abilities, Yink's invisibility.
 

PowerBomb

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Well the PT samus thing comes down to wether o rnot Dialga has th epower to slow time down enough to avoid rapid blasts, where he can set up his pokemon to actually stand a chance. He'd have to slow time, set up some sort of protect poke and use earthquake or something to throw samus off, fly out of initial **** range etc.
Dialga probably does, but every time it seriously affects time like that (lulz), it loses a LOT of energy. Roar of Time might be able to distort time, but the Poke Ball stops most of the power (which I'm assuming is time screwing and stopping). And PT doesn't have access to the Red Chain (nor can he). Plus, Samus' Beam goes through Protect (Detect is another story), as it basically is a wall and certain moves can hit through it under the right conditions.
PT also has to command Dialga to slow down time/stop it. Depending on how far he is from Samus at the beginning of the match, his chances of surviving change.
 

Diddy Kong

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Have you guys checked out the new trailer of Other M yet? It's ****ing awesome.

PT could probably still be protected somehow from Samus' beams I think. What if Samus for example got paralysed or put asleep? A Blissey and a Smeargle would work for that. Still, Samus would probably still be faster, or at least, shoot faster than PT can summon his Pokes.

Also PowerBomb, why wouldn't Protect work, but Detect would? They're bascially the same moves...
 

PowerBomb

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Have you guys checked out the new trailer of Other M yet? It's ****ing awesome.

PT could probably still be protected somehow from Samus' beams I think. What if Samus for example got paralysed or put asleep? A Blissey and a Smeargle would work for that. Still, Samus would probably still be faster, or at least, shoot faster than PT can summon his Pokes.

Also PowerBomb, why wouldn't Protect work, but Detect would? They're bascially the same moves...
This is just my opinion, but Protect is shown to be a wall, which can be hit through with Feint/other moves under certain conditions.

Detect is shown not to be a wall, but rather a 'prediction', which lets the foe predict your move, and evade it accordingly. i.e.: Move out of the way of Samus' Beams. It doesn't help PT in any way, though.
 

_clinton

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Vs Diddy might need a change yeah. But Diddy also has the Barrel Jetpack and Gyrocopter so how can Falcon even reach him? Vs Ike I disagree. Falcon cannot really hurt Ike.
Um, the Falcon Flyer, which is the actual ship he uses in his bounty hunting missions in the 1st place, its packed with weapons and such a remote control device, and more than one outfit (such as the Blue Falcon) in case he has to escape. He can hunt Diddy down faster than anything Diddy would ever use and destroy the little ****er.

I mean if you really don’t know what I’m talking about (because I’ve brought the Falcon Flyer up a few times now with this thread), that ship Falcon uses in the SSE when you get chased by Meta Ridley in SSBB andwhat you start the fight on in stages like Big Blue in SSBM is what the Flyer is.

Oh and why wouldn’t Falcon hurt Ike? He has bested his canon’s gods will to turn him into a weapon and depending on the F-Zero canon is the force of “light.” As in he is pretty much a “god” in human form himself.

Also do I really have to keep saying that Falcon is super human as well just normally? I mean the guy handles speeds at beyond the speed of sound! Plus as far as “super heroes” go he has fought his fair share of “ninja pirate robot dinosaur zombies!”

Vs Pichu, Yoshi could win. Not vs Pikachu imo.
How? Yoshi could just freeze the little ****er with a ice melon and then break him/eat him, the thing has to be smaller than a shy guy by far still.

And as far as range goes Yoshi’s eggs would feel like a truck hit the guy! Plus he has several types that he could use: bouncing (YI), homing with multi-target (SM64DS), and exploding types (YS/YIDS) come to mind.

Who won, who lost? I'm guessing Ike won, cause of Disarm. Might become a draw I think.
It was a draw, even though their main specials sort of “cancel” each other out and logically Bowser has to be at least 9000 times stronger than Ike normally, I mean show me any time at all where Ike pulled a huge chunk of land?

Ganon should beat Sonic.
How? Sonic moves at the speed of sound plus, can teleport, **** with time, and has ****ing beat gods canon wise. How is Ganondorf, who is just a simple pawn to his gods that they could just flick away effortlessly if they wanted to going to beat him?

Draw vs Mewtwo is fine enough really and Ike... is Ike. This blessing of him really needs some more discussion.
So did you notice how I brought up that Ike’s blessing is different from what the people are saying Ike has for his canon (he doesn’t have Mantel or anything like that) and that even then that blessing has a limit. The BK’s armor was lost when that castle in PoR fell on it like I keep saying.

Dunno about Kirby, they seem pretty even.
How are Mario and Kirby even? Mario has more strength, is faster physically (not saying much for speed of physical combat), better tools IMO, and so on.

Samus and Ganondorf are still a league above Mario imo.
BS, Mario has the power of gods on his side as well (both in him naturally and earning it), how about that? Plus he has to be at least around Samus’ speed booster speed based off how much land you cover with him in the game’s at a time + various Sonic like stunts that he performs in the 1st place.

I mean he has far as strength goes brings enough force under his fists to break up tornado holds on him and turn it into a tool he can use (because his spin attack has a suction effect in case you didn’t know that from playing SMG from the force and speed he throws into his spins), put out lava from foes when they are covered in it, bust through walls/other strong surfaces/various foe’s faces, and can lift things such as “buildings” and foes several times his size, I mean he has fought giant versions of his foes sense SMB3 for starters.

Ike should win.
How, Pit dealt with a foe who took down a god. Why does everyone think a blessing of a god in this thread (what Ike/Zelda characters have really) is better than a thing that takes down a god or having god powers themselves (in large amounts even)? WTF is up with that logic?

PT would beat Peach. Not sure about Samus, cause she can kill the trainer pretty easily with her weapons. Or, somehow a Pokemon could completely destroy Samus before she fires of coarse.
How is Samus going to be the various god pokemon out there that could just rip a small hole in her plane of existence (Palkia), or stop time around her (Dialga), or something else freaky like that (Giratina and so on, tech. I don’t see how she could handle being buried alive/flooded out of the field that much either)?

And personally I don’t see why you people don’t think PT’s Pokemon couldn’t protect him from other fighters with all of their barriers and such (and when Samus’ weapons clearly have a limit of how much they can pierce as shown in game with more than a few foes).

She should lose against both. Hell, IIRC even in the Deadliest Brawler ZSS is lower ranked than Link. Roy has the Sword of Seals and stuff. He's also pretty powerful.
Samus is super human even w/o her suit, Roy and TP Link are normal humans w/o their gear, all she would have to do is “disarm them” to win with her. It could easily go either way. It should be a tie.

I don’t see why some god protection matters either when Samus’ is packing Chozo technology and it is the very best they ever made (just saying that for when the Ganondorf vs. Samus fight comes up).

Peach should win maybe.
Meh, Peach is a classic “white mage” as far as abilities go (she certainly isn’t a battle mage), very limited in attack and always needs to be protected because of said limited battle capabilities (but like them she still at least has some limited form of offense magic), but is very good at supporting others.

Zelda has healing powers of some sort, is potent with a bow, is trained in the art of war, ect. I mean she in OoT avoided Ganondorf’s reach for 7 years (oh and she is a combined TP/OoT character as far as Smash goes, so using info from both of those games is just fine IMO).

How is anyone gonna beat Ganondorf anyway?
How is Ganondorf so great again when he doesn’t even have that much god power to call truly his in the 1st place (the ToP is but a “hair” of what Din really has), and Luigi has been shown to have proof of dealing with all of his other abilities at some point in time?

And really, something like Mario and Luigi beating Bowser is pretty much beating Ganondorf due to their similarities canon wise (what with both foes having some god power of some sort as either a natural thing/earned it, only in Bowser’s case he has his own and has earned it so add Bowser to the **** Ganondorf list as well).

Should remain the same imo. Not too sure about Pichu.
How? Pikachu can’t be much bigger than the foes Olimar fights already as was talked about, and he has Pikmin that are immune to electricity and Olimar himself is immune to it.

He can stun Pikachu as well/power up his Pikmin to the point where they are 10x stronger for a while.

If you truely wanna go all cannon about Toon Link, the Wind Waker is more dangerous to Meta Knight than before. Storms = bad for the Halberd. Pretty sure Toon Link could beat Meta Knight with the sword as well.
NO on the sword thing, please show me proof that TL’s able to fly, teleport, summon tornados/other odd things with his sword, use blade beams, and so on up close?

There is no way any of the other swordsman from Zelda, FE, and such would beat MK/Kirby up close in sword combat when they can swing that **** at the speed of sound as well I might add. They also have said sword that besides being sharp enough to cut well still can also hit with the force of a hammer normally and are “stacked beam” elemental (which means things like fire, ice, holy, and so on are in the sword)

And you acting like storms are so bad for the Halberd is funny, because a “omega beam canon” sounds a lot worse to Tink than anything he has. I think that people should know that Kirby while besting MK in sword somehow would lose to MK canon wise IMO because of the Halberd (he got knocked off for starters) at least at the time of KSS (for Kirby these days, who knows, I mean 1st of all you could have to fight like 4 of them, and only 1 is usually needed to get the job done).

Oh and another thing about the summoning of tornadoes is that Tink appears to need to be around water to do make them at their worse logically (or use them at all as far as the game shows), so where is the water on this “neutral battle field” again that will allow Tink such an advantage?

Not like it matters because even if MK is brought down there is no way he’d lose to Tink.

Samus: still no.
Oh really, you know I still have to wonder why you think Ness and Lucas would lose to characters like Bowser and Samus when canon wise they have the power to create and destroy at will according to their canon (what part of potentially destroy everything or renew everything is so hard to understand?). Which in case you’ve never got my point from me saying that, the short answer is that they can “will” characters like Samus away pretty much.

Of course if you don’t get my point with that, than let me explain some more: I’m still waiting for the Samus side to say Samus could create worlds, and/or at least destroy a world with her own power that isn’t off of just pressing a world self-destruct switch.

Meta Knight: maybe, but I still think no. Can Lucas really crash the Halberd?
Dude WTF? What part of me saying Lucas and Ness can of course fight at long range and so on because of there being foes in the games that do attack at long range and fly?

Plus what would be so hard about using something like PK Flash and ****ing up things on the Halberd mentally as well?

Pikachu: agreed. Diddy: still has Barrel Jetpack, Gyrocopter with its equipment. Diddy still has a decent shot. DK: a draw, at worst. Wario isn't beating him at least.
So, considering how you were the last person I talked to about Wario/Falcon vs. whoever before; did you forget the fact that I brought up like 50 times Wario has ways to achieve flight/fight at long range as well?

Jet cap, Demon form, Eagle cap, King Dragon cap, his ****ing plane built with weapons that will allow him to bring Diddy crashing down because the only thing I’ve seen from Diddy’s plane was the orange nades according to you. Oh and normal flight is out of the question as well.

Plus there is no way DK is stronger/more durable/can take a hit like Wario can.

Wario just shows off Bowser like strength in how he can move huge chunks of land just by punching the ground hard enough!

Mario and Luigi have been shown to take a hit or two from some doomsday weapon or so, but they are nothing like what Wario can take (again “reaction abilities” says it all, a lot of Wario’s “powers” come from foes trying to kill him and the stuff backfires more than just a bit).

Wario has also shown to be faster than Mario and Luigi as well, because he has been shown to bolt across water like certain other characters can, as in Sonic (Luigi has been shown to run across water in games like SM64DS, but he can’t keep up the speed needed for it and sinks after a bit).

Oh and as far as items go, besides his own:
-Wario can change his size with mega mushrooms (SM64DS), use fire flowers and really just a lot of Mario’s powers as well (SML2 as in his 1st appearance), hell metal form as well (SM64DS).
-He is an expert at using explosives as the games have shown time and time again.
-WL3 has a huge list of powerful **** he could use if he wanted to (he covered about ¼ of a world he was exploring for starters, so do you think DK could handle an Ice rod? Hell he was able to create storms in that game as well in order to bust open an area)

Who won, who lost? Toon Link still has the magic armor. Ice arrows are pretty dangerous to Snake unless he can stop them. If Toon Link won, I agree with it.
So what makes you think Snake can’t out stall Tink’s armor then blast him away with a rocket launcher or something like that? Tink doesn’t have a lens of truth or so IIRC, so Snake should be able to outlast that thing with his stealth suit or even sneak up on the *****.

I mean I really don’t think this thread knows enough about Snake and how awesome he is, **** the list of foes Snake has fought includes things like telepathic/telekinetic psychics and such:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMi3FRZ8ocE&feature=related
(8:04 is when it starts, 9:02 is when it ends)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLtZOYrDWNE
(The video in general is a nice)

He is “super human” as well pretty much according to the canon due to some things such as how he is a clone of a super solider just in general and has various machine enhancements flowing about in his body (nanomachines *****es, they supply pain killers, adrenaline, various nutrients, and so on). Granted stuff like that wouldn’t be much to some characters like Mario, Samus, Ness, Lucas, and such. However, please show me Tink making it through a microwave hall naturally.

Again, Ike is kinda iffy. If you can explain how maybe?
Because Andross took control over god beings that could control dark matter/create life and Fox still kicked his *** for starters. Plus Ike’s blessing isn’t ****ing Mantel like some people have been saying.

The question was if Luigi could see Link. None of your answers actually addressed the question. You were just saying how Luigi might be able to hit Yink while Yink is invisible. Doesn't do any good if he can't see Yink. That's why I said you dodged the question, because you provided an answer, but it wasn't the answer to the question at hand.
Ok let me review the facts as to what I’ve said again:

-Luigi can spot out boos and their own invisibility part in their skill and several games say they have the skill to turn invisible, how is Link’s thing “so special” compared to ghosts that you would think that the idea of Link being able to hide from Luigi wouldn’t automatically end when Luigi already has proof w/o me even trying that foes try to go invisible in the Mario canon and it doesn’t work on the Brothers? I mean PM:TYYD, and SM64 both say that the boos form of “hiding” is to turn invisible, if Luigi can see them why the **** don’t you think he couldn’t see Yink?

I mean the Mario brothers even have far more power than the boos do when it comes to turning invisible as well, the games say they fool the boos themselves!

-Link’s has some very clear limits as to what can see or can’t see him according to the canon, if various monsters/NPCs who aren’t even major foes can see him, what would stop Luigi from not doing it when he already is clearly able to see invisible foes of various types?

Dialga probably does, but every time it seriously affects time like that (lulz), it loses a LOT of energy. Roar of Time might be able to distort time, but the Poke Ball stops most of the power (which I'm assuming is time screwing and stopping). And PT doesn't have access to the Red Chain (nor can he). Plus, Samus' Beam goes through Protect (Detect is another story), as it basically is a wall and certain moves can hit through it under the right conditions.
PT also has to command Dialga to slow down time/stop it. Depending on how far he is from Samus at the beginning of the match, his chances of surviving change.
How long do you think it takes a PT to shout out commands really? Especially for a being that can just follow through on them in an instant if given a chance?

Also the fact that Samus has clear proof that her beams don’t pierce through everything in the canon isn’t enough for you or what? I love how you have to charge the thing fully just to do damage to some of the bosses in several of the games. I mean what makes you think the beams will rip through every type of pokemon in the 1st place and hit the trainer when the beams clearly have some elements that the pokemon the trainer could be using could easily be resistant to?

Of course whatever, I still don’t know why you guys think Samus’ beams will pierce Ness/Lucas’ shields when those don’t count as “armor” of any sort but really just a “part of them” when they are up.

I also don’t see why you guys think that the pokemon couldn’t just heal their trainer if need be if they could, the things have sort of sworn on their lives to protect the trainer most of the time.

Oh and again, Pokeballs don’t stop power, TG again just wanted to use those two pokemon to make their own world. Pokeballs don’t take away free will, that is why they couldn’t use them, Dialga and Palkia wouldn’t have to listen to an order if they didn’t like it. That is why TG needed the red chain, it made D&P slaves to the wills of others because of what it was made out of.

Of course here is a question for you, how come Dialga, and Palkia have unique items for themselves that boost their power if their power is being restricted by being in those pokeballs in the 1st place? You’d think they would be unable to boost their power at all if it was being restricted?
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Type-enhancing_item#Adamant_Orb
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Type-enhancing_item#Lustrous_Orb
 

PowerBomb

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I also don’t see why you guys think that the pokemon couldn’t just heal their trainer if need be if they could, the things have sort of sworn on their lives to protect the trainer most of the time.
Because there is no valid proof that the Pokemon can do that? And only Gardevoir swears on her life to protect the trainer. Everything else can be meh occasionally.
Oh and again, Pokeballs don’t stop power, TG again just wanted to use those two pokemon to make their own world. Pokeballs don’t take away free will, that is why they couldn’t use them, Dialga and Palkia wouldn’t have to listen to an order if they didn’t like it. That is why TG needed the red chain, it made D&P slaves to the wills of others because of what it was made out of.
Uh, yeah they do. Give me some proof otherwise.

Of course here is a question for you, how come Dialga, and Palkia have unique items for themselves that boost their power if their power is being restricted by being in those pokeballs in the 1st place? You’d think they would be unable to boost their power at all if it was being restricted?
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...em#Adamant_Orb
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...m#Lustrous_Orb
OMG, IT BOOSTS DRAGON/STEEL/WATER TYPE MOVES FOR THEM. Some other Pokemon have unique items as well. Ditto has Quick Powder, SUCH A BIG DEAL. All it does is increase the power of certain attacks. You could say Life Orb does the exact same thing (except it isn't so unique).

You can boost your power if it is restricted; look at Dialga's Bulk Up. It can't smash time apart when in a Poke Ball, but it can increase it's stats.
 

Diddy Kong

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Um, the Falcon Flyer, which is the actual ship he uses in his bounty hunting missions in the 1st place, its packed with weapons and such a remote control device, and more than one outfit (such as the Blue Falcon) in case he has to escape. He can hunt Diddy down faster than anything Diddy would ever use and destroy the little ****er.

I mean if you really don’t know what I’m talking about (because I’ve brought the Falcon Flyer up a few times now with this thread), that ship Falcon uses in the SSE when you get chased by Meta Ridley in SSBB andwhat you start the fight on in stages like Big Blue in SSBM is what the Flyer is.
Ok, fair share. Falcon wins.

Oh and why wouldn’t Falcon hurt Ike? He has bested his canon’s gods will to turn him into a weapon and depending on the F-Zero canon is the force of “light.” As in he is pretty much a “god” in human form himself.

Also do I really have to keep saying that Falcon is super human as well just normally? I mean the guy handles speeds at beyond the speed of sound! Plus as far as “super heroes” go he has fought his fair share of “ninja pirate robot dinosaur zombies!”
Yeah he's a god.. on steriods. :p

I still find this exact one difficult, and Ike's matchups in general. But really, if he didn't had that blessing yes, you'd be right here.

How? Yoshi could just freeze the little ****er with a ice melon and then break him/eat him, the thing has to be smaller than a shy guy by far still.

And as far as range goes Yoshi’s eggs would feel like a truck hit the guy! Plus he has several types that he could use: bouncing (YI), homing with multi-target (SM64DS), and exploding types (YS/YIDS) come to mind.
There are no ice melons 'here' for Yoshi to use. And yes, eggs would hurt Pikachu. But also, wouldn't lightning bolts hurt Yoshi as well? I personally think lightning > Yoshi. Pikachu also packs stuff like Double Team and Thunder Wave so no, I don't see Yoshi winning.

It was a draw, even though their main specials sort of “cancel” each other out and logically Bowser has to be at least 9000 times stronger than Ike normally, I mean show me any time at all where Ike pulled a huge chunk of land?
Where does Bowser pull chunks of land? Bowser's Inside Story? I recently played that and was not really impressed by Bowser (except the parts where he becomes giant of coarse, that was pretty awesome).

Bowser indeed would be stronger than Ike, but Ike isn't weak either. Without the Star Rod and stuff like that, I personally would see Ike beating Bowser here. Ike's sword outranges Bowser's punches as well, and it's not like Ike cannot resist Bowser's fire.

How? Sonic moves at the speed of sound plus, can teleport, **** with time, and has ****ing beat gods canon wise. How is Ganondorf, who is just a simple pawn to his gods that they could just flick away effortlessly if they wanted to going to beat him?
Ganondorf isn't a paw of the goddesses, he's a demon who abuses the power of the goddess Din in OoT and TP. And he has that power perfectly under control. He touched the Triforce and it granted him his evil wish to dominate Hyrule in LttP.

Ganon has been reffered to as a demon many times in the Zelda games. It wouldn't suprise me at all if he represented Satan either in the Zelda universe, cause he's basically that.

Sonic might've fought gods, as in... Gods like how they're represented in Greek mythology. Many, and each with different atributes like Mars being the god of war, and Venus the goddess of love.

Ganon manipulated the power of the Gods of creation. And in biblical terms, only a real powerful demon would be able to do that. Even if he'd be striped of his God power, he's still a powerful demon. He even posed as a God in TP to Zant, and gave him power to put Hyrule under Twilight. Kinda proves how he's Zelda's 'Satan' as he took the famous serpents role towards Zant.

So did you notice how I brought up that Ike’s blessing is different from what the people are saying Ike has for his canon (he doesn’t have Mantel or anything like that) and that even then that blessing has a limit. The BK’s armor was lost when that castle in PoR fell on it like I keep saying.
Actually, the armour wasn't lost. At least, not in the English version. Either Ike or Bastian pointed out in RD that there was no corpse or armour found in the collapsed castle. This comes out of my head, and I don't know where exactly in the game this is mentioned. But I played RD a lot so I'd know.

Ike's 'blessing' is a weird one. But I sort of agree with you here.

How are Mario and Kirby even? Mario has more strength, is faster physically (not saying much for speed of physical combat), better tools IMO, and so on.
Kirby has lots of abilities as well. Why is Mario stronger btw?

BS, Mario has the power of gods on his side as well (both in him naturally and earning it), how about that? Plus he has to be at least around Samus’ speed booster speed based off how much land you cover with him in the game’s at a time + various Sonic like stunts that he performs in the 1st place.
Yeah, you'd think that as how fast he dodges Bullet Bills and stuff in SMW. However, in most 3D games like Mario 64 and Galaxy, it appears that even I would be able to dodge a Bullet Bill. <_< I'm leaning more towards URMRGAY now here for a good base of Mario's speed...

Besides, have you seen the new trailer of Metroid: Other M? http://metroid.jp/ . Really, Samus is outspeeding mostly anyone here now. Even physically she seems better now than Mario, something you wouldn't think either based on her 2D games.

I mean he has far as strength goes brings enough force under his fists to break up tornado holds on him and turn it into a tool he can use (because his spin attack has a suction effect in case you didn’t know that from playing SMG from the force and speed he throws into his spins), put out lava from foes when they are covered in it, bust through walls/other strong surfaces/various foe’s faces, and can lift things such as “buildings” and foes several times his size, I mean he has fought giant versions of his foes sense SMB3 for starters.
Like ninja pirate robot dinosaur zombies? I like how you can make things sound 100 times as awesome as they actually are.

What is your theory behind Donkey Kong being able to smash bananas out of the ground? If Mario borrows tornado power for a spinning attack, surely DK has magical powers in his hands that transform banana seeds into fully ripe bananas in a few seconds?

Kirby, Mario, Donkey Kong, Pokemon... these are fantasy games. Those need to be looked at differently than the more realistic ones imo.

How, Pit dealt with a foe who took down a god. Why does everyone think a blessing of a god in this thread (what Ike/Zelda characters have really) is better than a thing that takes down a god or having god powers themselves (in large amounts even)? WTF is up with that logic?
Ike beated Ashera, the goddess of order and half part of the goddess of creation of the continent (cause yeah likely, all Fire Emblem worlds excist in the same planet I'm thinking). Pit did something similar, but I'm overall more impressed by Ike, than Pit.

How is Samus going to be the various god pokemon out there that could just rip a small hole in her plane of existence (Palkia), or stop time around her (Dialga), or something else freaky like that (Giratina and so on, tech. I don’t see how she could handle being buried alive/flooded out of the field that much either)?
Simply, she shoots the trainer before he can send out his Pokemon. A simple shot would honestly be enough as the trainer is just a normal regular kid. If the trainer manages to use his Pokemon, then yeah.. Samus would be in big trouble, no doubt.

And personally I don’t see why you people don’t think PT’s Pokemon couldn’t protect him from other fighters with all of their barriers and such (and when Samus’ weapons clearly have a limit of how much they can pierce as shown in game with more than a few foes).
I agree here. However, that doesn't mean that Samus can't kill the trainer much faster than he can summon Pokemon.

Canon wise, I think the trainer has the most destructive power. But that means little if he cannot defend himself properly.

Samus is super human even w/o her suit, Roy and TP Link are normal humans w/o their gear, all she would have to do is “disarm them” to win with her. It could easily go either way. It should be a tie.
I honestly don't get your logic at all... Mario should beat Samus, but Zero Suit Samus should beat Link and Roy? Link and Roy aren't exactly normal humans either anymore. Link never really was, as he was the one chosen by the Triforce of Courage, and Roy is his continents biggest war hero / general (canoncally speaking, he'd be stronger than Hector or Eliwood in their prime most likely- as well as in game).

Link also has stuff like Nayru's Love. ZSS really can't touch him. Ice Arrows would freeze her, and really, ZSS would die much easier than Link or Roy would.

I don’t see why some god protection matters either when Samus’ is packing Chozo technology and it is the very best they ever made (just saying that for when the Ganondorf vs. Samus fight comes up).
Logically, Samus can't even damage Ganon. However, I think if she'd blast him right into his scar he has in TP with a Light Beam, it'd damage Ganondorf. Ganondorf still has his beast form though with the trident so I don't really see any possiblity of anyone beating him.

Except Link. But only in Zelda games, not here.

Meh, Peach is a classic “white mage” as far as abilities go (she certainly isn’t a battle mage), very limited in attack and always needs to be protected because of said limited battle capabilities (but like them she still at least has some limited form of offense magic), but is very good at supporting others.

Zelda has healing powers of some sort, is potent with a bow, is trained in the art of war, ect. I mean she in OoT avoided Ganondorf’s reach for 7 years (oh and she is a combined TP/OoT character as far as Smash goes, so using info from both of those games is just fine IMO).
Yeah well I dunno really about this. Sure lots of others would like to discuss this exact match.

How is Ganondorf so great again when he doesn’t even have that much god power to call truly his in the 1st place (the ToP is but a “hair” of what Din really has), and Luigi has been shown to have proof of dealing with all of his other abilities at some point in time?
We don't know what Din's strenght is, other than she supposedly created the elements of earth and fire in the world of Hyrule. Logically, no Ganondorf wouldn't be able to do that exactly I'm thinking. At least, not with the Triforce of Power alone. That's why in the modern games he was chasing down the Triforce of Wisdom and Courage.

In LttP, Ganon DID create a whole different universe paralel to Hyrule, except it's all covered in darkness. He did this cause he had the full Triforce, thus most likely; LttP is the strongest Ganon has ever been.

And really, something like Mario and Luigi beating Bowser is pretty much beating Ganondorf due to their similarities canon wise (what with both foes having some god power of some sort as either a natural thing/earned it, only in Bowser’s case he has his own and has earned it so add Bowser to the **** Ganondorf list as well).
Wouldn't be so quick to say that, as beating Ganondorf required special weapons. Beating Bowser didn't, except in Paper Mario 64 maybe?

Thing is, the Zelda universe backs most things up with logics like, the Master Sword being the swords of evils bane, the Triforce containing the power of the goddesses of creation and stuff. Mario universe doesn't use this a lot, only in the RPG games. And even then, mostly is based of pure 'happy happy joy magic mushroom power' which is difficult to estimate when not under the influence of magic mushrooms yourself. :)

How? Pikachu can’t be much bigger than the foes Olimar fights already as was talked about, and he has Pikmin that are immune to electricity and Olimar himself is immune to it.

He can stun Pikachu as well/power up his Pikmin to the point where they are 10x stronger for a while.
Are you aware of the game PokePark Wii: Pikachu's Great Adventure? It's a Japan only game, starring Pikachu. Has a lot of battle as well following a new 'system' although it's a kind of childish one. Here, Pika is able to beat stuff like Mew (or it's transformations) and Groudon and the likes... Just check out some videos for yourself.

NO on the sword thing, please show me proof that TL’s able to fly, teleport, summon tornados/other odd things with his sword, use blade beams, and so on up close?
Depends on what's allowed on Toon Link. Sword beams where also in Four Swords, who use the Toon Link design as well. Though most likely, we'll be bound only to Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass where Brawl's Toon Link is based off. I dunno if Link could shoot beams from his sword in PH either. Most likely not.

Why wouldn't Toon Link be able to beat Meta Knight sword on sword? Kirby has defeated Meta Knight also couple of times, and I think that Toon Link is overall better than Kirby, sword-wise. Well maybe not, but Toon Link still has stuff like elemental arrows, Magic Armour and the boomerang to help him beat Meta Knight.

The Wind Waker could easily create tornadoes, as those frog gods of wind learned you that. Sure, it's only used for transportation in game, but that doesn't mean it's still a tornado.

There is no way any of the other swordsman from Zelda, FE, and such would beat MK/Kirby up close in sword combat when they can swing that **** at the speed of sound as well I might add. They also have said sword that besides being sharp enough to cut well still can also hit with the force of a hammer normally and are “stacked beam” elemental (which means things like fire, ice, holy, and so on are in the sword)
Ike and adult Link would no doubt beat Meta Knight in a sword fight. I'm not going into ful detail, because I'm confinced they would beat him. First Link outranges Meta Knight by a lot, and the Great Spin + Magic Armour would do huge damage. Besides, seeing as how small Meta Knight is, most of his attacks could be blocked by Link's shield I say. Ike has ranged sword waves and Aether, as well as actual war experience and goddess-killing powers. He resists / survives high leveled magic spells as well. It's a shame Ike cannot use Ragnell and Alondite as dual blades like the original user of the blades did...

Then again, they should beat the Halberd first. For Link it's no problem I think with the Song of Storms, but Ike, that's a different story. Roy with his Sword of Seals would also be a huge challenge for Meta Knight in a sword fight. Marth would simply lose I think.

And you acting like storms are so bad for the Halberd is funny, because a “omega beam canon” sounds a lot worse to Tink than anything he has. I think that people should know that Kirby while besting MK in sword somehow would lose to MK canon wise IMO because of the Halberd (he got knocked off for starters) at least at the time of KSS (for Kirby these days, who knows, I mean 1st of all you could have to fight like 4 of them, and only 1 is usually needed to get the job done).
Yes the Halberd. Stupid thing is gonna place Meta Knight so much higher than he should imo...

Flying in storms is simply dangerous. The Halberd wouldn't be destroyed by the storms, no. But it'd be hard for Meta Knight to maintain it's course, which then he'd have to abandon it, fighting Toon Link sword to sword. At least, that's how I'd picture it.

Oh and another thing about the summoning of tornadoes is that Tink appears to need to be around water to do make them at their worse logically (or use them at all as far as the game shows), so where is the water on this “neutral battle field” again that will allow Tink such an advantage?
Weren't you mr. Anti-game mechanics? The Wind Waker can be used on the land in game, so I see no problems here.

Not like it matters because even if MK is brought down there is no way he’d lose to Tink.
I disagree. Hurricane Spin, potions, Ice Arrows, Magic Armour... sure Meta Knight could have the advantage in sword skill, but Toon Link has all of those items. I don't see him losing either.

Oh really, you know I still have to wonder why you think Ness and Lucas would lose to characters like Bowser and Samus when canon wise they have the power to create and destroy at will according to their canon (what part of potentially destroy everything or renew everything is so hard to understand?). Which in case you’ve never got my point from me saying that, the short answer is that they can “will” characters like Samus away pretty much.
The Mother series leave too much to your imagination. I think this is your personal view of Ness and Lucas' powers, but they by far aren't mine. I still see them how they are in their battle menus, with a bit of personal imagination to it but nothing really impressive. Well actually, yes they are pretty impressive but nothing that Samus couldn't handle I think. Especially since Ness is alone this time around.

Of course if you don’t get my point with that, than let me explain some more: I’m still waiting for the Samus side to say Samus could create worlds, and/or at least destroy a world with her own power that isn’t off of just pressing a world self-destruct switch.
She can't. She's just a fighter, a warrior. She doesn't has any nuke options in her Power Suit no. But that doesn't mean she's not dangerous. Cause she IS ****ing dangerous. In Samus' case, it's not only her power, but mostly her skill which makes her strong. Then again, she's still packing stuff as Phazon, Speed Booster, Hyper Mode ability and many more stuff.

Dude WTF? What part of me saying Lucas and Ness can of course fight at long range and so on because of there being foes in the games that do attack at long range and fly?

Plus what would be so hard about using something like PK Flash and ****ing up things on the Halberd mentally as well?
Those machines Lucas fights in Mother 3 aren't, by far as big as the Halberd is. PK Flash honestly SUCKS. Really. It does. I find more uses in the OHKO moves in Pokemon like Fissure and Guilotine than PK Flash in Mother 3.

Besides... the Halberd isn't alive, so how can it be screwed around with mentally anyway??? Unless you mean Meta Knight? Well, I'm sure that if Meta Knight is in state of crying or whatever, he'd hand over the pilloting to some other Kirby enemy.

So, considering how you were the last person I talked to about Wario/Falcon vs. whoever before; did you forget the fact that I brought up like 50 times Wario has ways to achieve flight/fight at long range as well?
Yes you said so before, but it didn't impressed me so I didn't remember it well. It doesn't mather much, cause the Kongs and Wario should end up in about the same tier anyway. With me personally saying Diddy and DK should end up higher than Wario.

Jet cap, Demon form, Eagle cap, King Dragon cap, his ****ing plane built with weapons that will allow him to bring Diddy crashing down because the only thing I’ve seen from Diddy’s plane was the orange nades according to you. Oh and normal flight is out of the question as well.
Diddy has the Gyrocopter. Told you that before as well, I even explained fully what it could do and posted a vid yet you don't see me *****ing you forgot right? :)

That aside, if we're truely going canon here who says Wario will ever lay a hand on Diddy Kong anyways? You see what things that little guy dodges? It's by far more impressive than the Bullet Bill level in Super Mario World which according to you guys made Mario basically Superman.

Hell, DKC-canon wise Diddy is already much better than Mario, Link and Yoshi cause he beats all 3 in Cranky Kong's Hero Coin challenge. ^^

Diddy's Gyrocopter is armed with unlimited bullets and some bombs. I'm saying that Diddy and Wario are still even, but Diddy has the advantage of stuff like Going Bananas, the guitar, Orange Grenades and insane dodging.

Plus there is no way DK is stronger/more durable/can take a hit like Wario can.
You aren't convincing me Wario beats DK either. To me, Donkey Kong is clearly stronger, more durable and can take hits better than Wario. I've got Jungle Beat game mechanics, game play and overall DK awesome ness with me to prove that.

Wario just shows off Bowser like strength in how he can move huge chunks of land just by punching the ground hard enough!
DK can't do that you mean? You really, really mean that? O.o

Besides, look at Brawl. Donkey Kong is a overall stronger character than Wario as well. Not that it counts, but you know, it's still true.

Mario and Luigi have been shown to take a hit or two from some doomsday weapon or so, but they are nothing like what Wario can take (again “reaction abilities” says it all, a lot of Wario’s “powers” come from foes trying to kill him and the stuff backfires more than just a bit).

Wario has also shown to be faster than Mario and Luigi as well, because he has been shown to bolt across water like certain other characters can, as in Sonic (Luigi has been shown to run across water in games like SM64DS, but he can’t keep up the speed needed for it and sinks after a bit).
In SM64DS, Wario is still the slowest.

Oh and as far as items go, besides his own:
-Wario can change his size with mega mushrooms (SM64DS), use fire flowers and really just a lot of Mario’s powers as well (SML2 as in his 1st appearance), hell metal form as well (SM64DS).
-He is an expert at using explosives as the games have shown time and time again.
-WL3 has a huge list of powerful **** he could use if he wanted to (he covered about ¼ of a world he was exploring for starters, so do you think DK could handle an Ice rod? Hell he was able to create storms in that game as well in order to bust open an area)
Wario can't have a metal box here. Expert at using explosives doesn't mather much, cause the Sound Wave attack would really block any of those (would likely stop Samus' missles as well). Ice Rod I dunno about, but DK is able to resist fire and ice just fine.

So what makes you think Snake can’t out stall Tink’s armor then blast him away with a rocket launcher or something like that? Tink doesn’t have a lens of truth or so IIRC, so Snake should be able to outlast that thing with his stealth suit or even sneak up on the *****.
That's one scenario. What if Toon Link first freezes Snake with a Ice Arrow? Magic Armour would still protect Toon Link, and potions would heal damage and magic meter.

I mean I really don’t think this thread knows enough about Snake and how awesome he is, **** the list of foes Snake has fought includes things like telepathic/telekinetic psychics and such:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMi3FRZ8ocE&feature=related
(8:04 is when it starts, 9:02 is when it ends)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLtZOYrDWNE
(The video in general is a nice)
Will check that out later. :)

He is “super human” as well pretty much according to the canon due to some things such as how he is a clone of a super solider just in general and has various machine enhancements flowing about in his body (nanomachines *****es, they supply pain killers, adrenaline, various nutrients, and so on). Granted stuff like that wouldn’t be much to some characters like Mario, Samus, Ness, Lucas, and such. However, please show me Tink making it through a microwave hall naturally.
I have little knowlegde of Snake I admit.

Because Andross took control over god beings that could control dark matter/create life and Fox still kicked his *** for starters. Plus Ike’s blessing isn’t ****ing Mantel like some people have been saying.
I sort of agree here. But Ike's blessing needs more discussion anyways. Besides, the only REAL advantage Fox has in the Arwing and that he flies, Ike should be able to handle Fox easily if he was on the ground.
 

Ganonsburg

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,083
-Luigi can spot out boos and their own invisibility part in their skill and several games say they have the skill to turn invisible, how is Link’s thing “so special” compared to ghosts that you would think that the idea of Link being able to hide from Luigi wouldn’t automatically end when Luigi already has proof w/o me even trying that foes try to go invisible in the Mario canon and it doesn’t work on the Brothers? I mean PM:TYYD, and SM64 both say that the boos form of “hiding” is to turn invisible, if Luigi can see them why the **** don’t you think he couldn’t see Yink?

I mean the Mario brothers even have far more power than the boos do when it comes to turning invisible as well, the games say they fool the boos themselves!

-Link’s has some very clear limits as to what can see or can’t see him according to the canon, if various monsters/NPCs who aren’t even major foes can see him, what would stop Luigi from not doing it when he already is clearly able to see invisible foes of various types?
You've said this already, but I'm asking you for proof. Which game has he been shown to see boos? I looked http://www.mariowiki.com/Luigi <--there and couldn't find anything about it. Plenty about him turning invisible (which everyone agreed on), but nothing about him seeing invisible things. I'm just asking you to show us where he can see boos. I'm not saying Yink is special and will not be seen by Luigi if Luigi does indeed have this power; I'm asking where it is seen or stated/shown that Luigi can do it.

Just to restate the question, because you've dodged the question twice now,

Where does Luigi show the ability to see Boos that are invisible?

:034:
 

payasofobia

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Feb 13, 2008
Messages
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Location
America!
Except I’ve also pointed out that they made life on that said rock in case you forgot that. They could build an army if they wanted to (in fact they did, considering how only the SharpClaw and RedEye’s are on the other side from them), it isn’t their fault one part of the life they made wanted control over them and was only able to do it because of Andross.

Who again you really are underestimating as far as potential threat goes.

And yet, they could beat the Krazoas and their armies pretty **** easily. I still can't see how gods that could be defeated so easily by what is pretty much equal in function to wyverns and horses could be considered incredibly powerfull.

I will continue this below.



Except the point you are missing is that they are similar in many aspects, not just one thing. Really the only real differences I see between them and Ashunera is number (Ashurnera is broken into two for a depressing reason, and they are broken into 6 just because), name (of course that), and “what” they made (and that really doesn’t matter IMO in this case due to the fact that both of the life forms they have made happen to be “human like” for the final result, so I’m pretty sure the fact that they made life in general is more important).

You also seem to be missing the point. The point of my post is not saying that they are similar in one thing. That point is that, like you said, there are differences between them. They are not equal.

And, taking this into account, I get the base of my argument: Both created life, both are gods of their worlds, etc etc yadda yadda.

The matter of fact is that, while they may be similar in many aspects, they are different in the fact that both lack the same fighting capabilities. Ashunera created life on a planet and, on top of that, can end it with only half of her power. The Krazoa are similar in the former, but on the latter, even together they have low fighting capabilities.



Ah no, everything they did that made them a threat was because of Andross:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P406HX0rEns&feature=related
-The video show that the queen Earthwalker herself says that the SharpClaws have become a greater threat somehow at 2:47-3:08. It says that “Scales has always been stopped in the past despite his high level of ****ery, but this time he has somehow become stronger” and beat them.

Plus I can’t believe you think that they made the stuff themselves just in general really. It’s very clear from watching the game that said planet they are on is primitive in its development for 90+ % of it. I mean the main weapons the SharpClaws have deal with axes, clubs, and other “primitive” things. The fact that they have teleporters, sentry robots, various cannons, and so on but in by far more rare amounts compared to the weaker things. Which makes it clear they only got that stuff recently somehow.

This video shows it that they have only had them for a while in case you can’t accept the logical point from me that I just made:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1d2TXRejuU&feature=related
7:23-7:27, “Where has the general found such weapons?”

Plus in general the thing Scales is doing on Dragon Rock (making bioweapons) for that part of the game is something that Andross did in SF64 in case you never noticed that (of course I really don’t need to say that, after all you know what he looks like, yeah he himself was an experiment).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6s8qMGOONw&playnext_from=TL&videos=N4mfXN7mU2U
Man I love this level, and the history for it being a nest made from Andross’ experiments proves my point that Dragon Rock’s mutant monsters have Andross’ fingers over them (In case Falco calling him a madman isn’t proof enough).

And just to prove my point more, just look at the boss for that area:
http://starfox.wikia.com/wiki/Vulcain

I admit I made a mistake there.

Very well, Andross did give them new weapons. Now answer me: if the Krazoa really do have the same fighting capabilities as Ashera, then how could they be defeated by bikes, turrets and small transport ships an what are essentialy horses, ballistas and wyverns in function? And without any kind of blessing or special power whatsoever?

And no, being futuristic does not make them better than the weapons in fire emblem. The only such vehicle that is obviously better than the Fire Emblem stuff being the bikes because they are just so **** fast. The turrets deal pathetic damage with their lasers and the transport ships don't really do anything besides that.

And even then, Fox using what basicaly amounts to a basic fire-element Fire Emblem spell riding on top of a pterodactyl could bring down THE most heavily armed place in the entire Planet singlehandheldly with dozens of turrets and ships. Alone.

If I had something to say here, it would be that any great wyvern rider with magic or perphaps a magical bow could easily destroy everything Fox faced in that part of the planet.

In short, OK, Andross gave them SCIENCE, but said SCIENCE went down to what basicaly amounts to a stick that shoots fireballs.

And then you realize that, in Fire Emblem, we get guys with even more powers than Fox and the Krazoa. Every mage can easily summon meteors, freeze the air around the opponent instantly, shoot lighting, create black holes, make a gigantic explosion out of nowhere and make the floor literaly turn into lava.


I’m aware that the game wasn’t Star Fox at 1st, but who gives a **** now? (Even if 50+% of it could have been dealt with w/o using that ****ing staff) The game has been made canon as far as the series goes (Star Fox for the SNES, Star Fox 2, and Star Fox Command are the ones that aren’t canon).

Oh and Andross’ asspull is nothing compared to some of the other enemies in this thread (Ganondorf for one), and it isn’t even a shock really. The start of the game-the end of the game all give hints that he is behind the stuff. **** pretty much every series in this thread is responsible for reusing things in some way. If you think Ike is the only FE character to ever beat a god/use god power you might want to look again at Marth and Roy’s canons.

Oh and another thing about Andross’ behind the scenes approach; Scales didn’t know it was him helping him, he didn’t even know he was there (because Scales sucks that much).

Sure, beating a god is not even that impressive nowadays, but then you realize this little bit of info: what I have been saying. Most of those gods are pathetic.

Roy? Said god, while powerfull, had a serious case of "HOLY **** THIS WEAPON KILLS THE **** OUT OF ME".

Roy with SoS vs anyone except dragons=Oh jee weez, why must you be so useless?

Roy vs dragons= sword of seals' anti-dragon hax saved my ***!


Something similar happens with Marth. He can't be hurt when in melee range thanks to his sword. And the final boss being literaly stuck to the ground made things even easier.

But face Marth against anyone who has a ranged attack and things go back to normal.



They speak in the game, quite a lot really, and here are just a few examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKuVnLPE5B8&feature=related
1:30, one higher ranked guard before you have to start dodging barrels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSCGMEl9hdc&feature=related
4:05, a lower grunt where you get your staff back.

There, proof that lower SharpClaws and higher SharpClaws can talk. In fact all of the dinos can talk (and each have their own “style” as well).
Which clearly shows a poor grasp of the language. But language is just the tip of the ice berg.

The main issue with them is the fact that they are mostly comic relief characters who clearly make a lot of mistakes and, like you showed me, they are the pinnacle of incompetent.

So incompetent in fact, that they went extinct a few years after the end of adventures. The only thing that saved their ***** being the fact that the local fauna was not prepared to deal with turrets and the like. After all, they were stuck in the age of "ramming against opponent", and they did not have the ranged attacks to deal with the new technology.

In short:

Vanilla Sharp Claws= epic fail.

Every Other Race= fail.

Sharp Claws with Technology= less fail.

Fox with Magic= decent.

FwM>SCwT>EOR>VSC



The only reason the SharpClaw were able to do anything was because of Andross in case you didn’t notice my other stuff before this showing it, because until he showed up, there was no real major problem according to the game (just saying it again).

Oh and the giant monkey you keep making fun of for some reason is a powerful psychic (and btw psychic energy is pretty much what god power may as well be in case you don’t get that) who laughs at death’s face according to the Star Fox canon.

Hell the only reason the spirits can’t go back to the resting grounds themselves is because of Andross hiding out there (as I showed in an earlier video with that dino saying there is a great evil hiding out there). In fact I’m pretty sure the reason they reveal themselves to Fox other than to save Crystal is just because of how famous he is in the 1st place in that galaxy, you are aware that Andross never showed himself to Fox but was clearly responsible for trapping Krystal right? I wonder why Andross wouldn’t show himself to Fox much except for the 1st time at the end of the game, other than the fact that he fears Fox knowing who he is.

Oh and the lasers didn’t hurt Andross in the god form, Fox needed a bomb to even open him up for damage. Said bomb BTW clearly shows that it has enough power to wipe out a large area that is for sure the size of most of Ike’s battlefields if needed only using one. Which also another thing I think you keep forgetting is that Fox has enough fire power to flat out destroy such an area that Ike is at. I mean really Dino planet is pretty much = to Ike’s world as far as base technology/government goes and Fox deals with that area single handed using basic stuff (hell that is what Scales did in regards to the other races).

Just saying, Technology>”Magic” by far.

My above pst pretty much answered most of your points here.

Also, to elaborate on why I believe why being a psychic =! being a god:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/psychic

A person apparently responsive to psychic forces it says.

(if you want to go straight to the point, skip this part.)

OK, exactly how powerfull or influential are said psychic forces in a universe?

In our world, psychic force is nothing more than the libidinous energy of the id. This is regarded as the primary motivating force in the human personality.

In an hyphotetical scenario, let's say there is a psychic in our world that is profficient in controlling psychic force. Guess what? Psychic force is nothing more than something in our brain that controls our personality. Said psychic would be nothing more than just a person who is really proficient at faking or making his own emotions.

(point)

So what am I getting at here? At one simpel thing: definition of psychic force in a world. What does controlling psychic force do? Does being a psychic in an universe make you god all of a sudden? To what extent does said power control the laws of our universe?


The answer to that: it varies between universes. In Pokemon, being a psychic only establishes which attack types you are weak against and which attacks you use deal more damage. It may perphaps give you a nifty in-pokedex-only ability but that's it.

That's it.

Just how powerfull a psychic Andross is? Let's see what he could do in his games:

Shoot beams out of his fingers, try to eat Fox, hit him with his giant ape hands, shoot bigger laser beams out of his head and....that's pretty much it. Hell, most of his techniques were used by other enemies in the series.

The only other techniques that show an even remotely awesome level of psychic power being his teleportation and separating his spirit from his body.

But does that tell us that he really was god-like? Not really. And once again, just don't go assuming that he is a god because other psychics in other universes with other definition of psychics can do more.

And before you pull that whole "To teleport you would need to transfer your molecules one by one! He is obviusly incredibly powerfull if he can do that!"

Proof of that? Why the hell must psychics have their powers be explained with the rules of the real world when other, similar abilities are simply handwaved as simply videogame nonsense?


And now, having gotten this out of the way, why would the "almighty" Krazoa need to hide from a being such as Andross if he really is nothing special?


And again, with that out of the way, holy ****, Fox's lasers couldn't damage Andross and he needed to attack his weakpoint! FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!

Hey, have I not heard that same thing about most Star Fox enemies? Enemies that you just couldn't hit anywhere you wanted and instead had to hit their weakpoints?


And finally, as I said up there, Fox managed to beat Andross' technology with Magic. And he wasn't even that used to using that staff. He still won. If I had to say so myself, anyone from the Fire Emblem universe could do the very same thing fox did in Dinosaur planet.

Hell, you don't even need to give them wyverns because there are plenty friendly flying dinosaurs waiting to help the savious in it's quest. All they need is a decent arrow and the whole thing would be done for.



I hope the fact that I’ve pointed out proof that Scales got the stuff or at least “the how” from Andross, and how Andross “pushed” Krystal into the beam is enough to prove that he did more than just plot.
Also, the Krazoa spirits are clearly picky about what person they will use as a host, they clearly say that only those pure of heart can take their tests at least two times in the game (once with Krystal before she takes the bloody test with info from the dying dino, once with Fox when they 1st speak to him).

In fact, Andross getting passed one of their barriers is another thing I’d like to point out for how strong the guy is. One of the game’s hidden events that is shown if you gather enough cheat tokens (8 IIRC), has the game telling you that Andross is alive still (of course) and besides being able to flat out control “evil” (as shown with characters like Scales who didn’t even know he was there) he can also corrupt “good” if given a chance.

No, it just seems to me like the Krazoa really are just pathetic and that this game has a buttload of plotholes induced by the sudden change from Dinosaur Planet to Star Fox. Like how that "dumb" General Scales you keep mentioning managed to control said spirits even though he is clearly evil and not strong.

Besides, shoving a confused and distracted Krystal into a....crystal doesn't seem much if you ask me. All he did in the game was nothing. Nothing at all.





At the final Krazoa spirit with Scales; Andross points out that the Earthwalkers did notice who Andross was along with Krystal (to prove that Andross was doing more than just “plot”).

Oh and how please explain how strong Ashera would have been if she didn’t break her own rules with regards to order considering how Yune’s army was WTF pwning the hell out of them before the tower? Also with regards to her bringing back the dead to fight Ike’s team over and over again, one must wonder why she didn’t just do that for the final area?
Exactly, but they did not know what he really was. Their reaction seemed exactly like the reaction a middle ages peasant would have if he saw me playing videogames.

"HE IS A SORCERER! KILL HIM NOW BEFORE HE SPREADS HIS EVIL ACROSS THE LAND!"

The point was: they saw him, but to them he was a devil or a monster. Not a scientist.



Also, the questions: Critical moments requie critical thinking. She was going to fight a powerfull army that was supported by her counterpart. Emphasis on counterpart.

And the other one, how good would that do if that army was defeated multiple times through the course of the level? Why bother anymore if even her strongest mage fell to said army? The next best thing was summoning powerful spirits to deal with the intruders. Not to mention fighting herself.



And Ike’s goddess has only made one world, how on earth would that make him win vs. characters like one of the Star Children (Mario) who have enough power to **** a universe if given a chance when put together?

In regards to Mario, I also like how you avoid the fact that besides Bowser (who btw has been shown to be very powerful in regards to dark magic because he is a star child or something), his list of foes include world busting/universe destroyers (**** one foe he has fought could eat time and space, what does that say about Ike?).

Of course I don’t have to explain the Mario RPG games when they have been brought up like 9001 times with other posts (oh and Paper Mario was what I was referencing when I said Bowser beat his world’s gods, not SMG).

In regards to Falcon, I like how you think him beating them in racing is a small thing, I mean the races are just done at supersonic speeds (which btw is more than just impressive because it pretty much says that you have to “super human” normally in order to compete in such a thing, and Falcon’s canon is filled with ninja pirate robot dinosaur zombies as “normal things” but he is the champ of said event for the canon), and the gods had control over a being who was the ruler of “the underworld” before Falcon kicked his ***. BTW Falcon is the symbol for “light” in his canon as well in case you didn’t notice my meaning behind the part where Falcon ****ed his underworld counterpart.

Oh and you thinking Samus is only just dealing with the space pirates is also a bit off, you seemed to have forgotten the part about things like Mother Brain being made by the Chozo, and stuff like Phazon and the X which either have a simulation effect/consider the universe food.

Oh and you saying Sonic would have died multiple times is kind of funny when you are trying to defend FE, I mean Ike is just one unit out of many that you can use you know. Fun fact I’m pretty sure Ike didn’t do everything himself. The fact remains however that Sonic does have some sort of control over the chaos emeralds, and he has used them to save the world from D-day more than once because the only series in this thread that is the most unique as far as presentation is the Mother series (but that is just another issue).

Fun fact regarding the star children: same thing as the Krazoa.

You are stuck with the way of thinking that, if something is similar to the other in one or several things, they must obviously be equal.

Muslims, jews and christians all believe in the same god. Doe sthat mean that they are equal? Of course not.

What you are saying is that because they all adore god, they must all be the same.



Which is obviously not true. The starchildren can create planets but you are omiting details. These childs can only mostly become planets and aside from that they are pretty much powerless. I guess they could become gigantic black holes and destroy the whole universe, but then that takes millions of these childs.





And the guy who destroyed the universe, well, the Chaos Heart and the void created by it actually did all the handiwork.

But I'll give you this. Dimentio and Count Bleck had a powerful tool in their possession and it required equally powerful tools to defeat them. But that's an entirely different matter and that speaks more for Dimentio and Bleck than it does for Mario.


As for Falcon,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_transport

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ng_sound_barrier_(7_July_1999)_-_filtered.jpg


Yeah, you could argue that those are half-controlled by computers, but what is telling us that the Captain doesn't use similar systems to those? Hell, did you even know that it is perfectly feasible for humans to control supersonic aircraft with little issues?

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1961/1961 - 0521.html


And like it said in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ_nNdZtEPE

That whole Dark/Light BS was made up by the bad guys of the game. Captain Falcon is nothing more than a human. A skilled human, but nothing more.


And about Samus, well, she is an incredibly powerfull weapon but she is still far from being a Galaxy-level threat. Refer to the whole psychic thing above for reference.

Same thing about the X and the Phazon. They are very, very dangerous. And that's an understatement, of course.

But then I say the same thing I said about Dimentio and Bleck. These two plagues are very, very powerful. Too bad the hero got inmunity to the exact same thing that made those dangerous.

The only reason why these plagues are considered dangerous it's because of their contamination capabilities. Beyond that, they are just your average monster with, in the case of phazon monsters, access to an hypermode that worked simple enough to be reverse-engineered by the federation.

I bet that, if I gave Ike (or anyone else for that matter) a fusion suit and an anti-phazon armour they would be able to clear the planet of said infestations.



And about the last thing, not exactly.

Ike's canon (and even gameplay seeing you can't have him die without getting a game over) clearly dictates that he won nearly every single fight he participated in. Just like how canon dictates that Sonic never has issues with the egg-bots. There was only one time when his life could have ended.

And the fact remains that, no, he does not have control over the Chaos Emeralds. Perphaps just a little bit but that's it. He is no Shadow.

The whole "super sonic" deal is not unique to him, there being several characters that can do the very same thing and they do not have the same skills as Sonic.



Please check again:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/file/932999/53574


Her powering up people is “exhausting” for her, in fact her blessing clearly tire her out as you can see when she powers up the weapons:

Very well, it does tire her out. But then there is the fact that blessing so many weapons and armour at once would obviously be tiresome.

And hell, he blesses more weapons at only one time than any video game gods I can think off at the moment. Most of them just bless two or three weapons at one given time and then never do that again.

I'll continue below.


Oh and check this out:


Oh my, the gods aren’t perfect.
Your point being.....? What? That she is not the strongest being in the entire universe and that many characters from many other universes could beat her in a fight (Like Cosmos, Zeus, God, Kefka etc)?

Very well. Does that make her any weaker than she is and probably still makes her one of the strongest fictional beings in videogames? Not really. She does have limits, obviously, but those limits are well beyond that of many other characters in the Nintendo and many other universes.

The only beings that come close to Ashera and Yune are the triforce goddesses which are basicaly three parts of a higher being, just like how Yune and Ashera are parts of a higher being.

The other gods also suffer from this, but at a much higher degree. I will refer to this as the the "united we are strong, but separated we can't do ****" syndrome. All the star gods in Mario, the pure hearts, the three "gods" in F-zero, the Krazoa etc.

And even when complete, many of these gods have subpar abilities.


Besides, you clearly misunderstood the maning of that sentence.

Here, I'll explain it to you with another figure of speaking:



A colony of wasps see that there is a colony of bees somewhere. They invade it thinking that is will be easy as pie to defeat them and fall into a trap. The bees beat the wasps 1000 to one, and they can't beat them no matter how big they are. The wasps all die because of that mistake.

And nothing of value was lost because there are much more colonies of wasps aroun the place and their deaths don't really affect the environment.


On the other hand, a country decides that it would be incredibly awesome to invade another one without scanning their offensive capabilities. They attack it and the other country retaliates by firing 3 nukes at them. The entire country is oblierated, millions die and a chunk of the planet is ruined forever.



Basicaly: Gods are much more powerfull and big than humans, which means that their mistakes are just as big.




Um, excuse me but I’m pretty sure I also said that at the start as well, my original argument in case you forgot with regards to the blessing was that it could only be acted on “weapons and armor.” Which if it wasn’t for certain things being confusing with regards to characters packing natural weapons and armor, I’d be 100% right.



Which is my point really the stuff we have is naturally weaker, so blessing it wouldn’t make as much sense as blessing the stuff that allows them to actually equal them (weapons and armor and such). The natural advantages they have allow the blessing to take effect in certain aspects such as their build and the natural weapons.

So leaving the body of said armoured characters unprotected makes no sense? Even though many of them have large chunks of their bodies unprotected?

Leaving aside the very hands and bodies that make that equipment work seems pretty dumb.

Anyway, I will just leave you with this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybKzGccTUJI

When Yune blessed him, he obviously did something to his body to make him feel lighter and better than before. If that is not a clear case of body blessing, I don't know what it is.


Except you miss my point about how they are only equal because of weapons/armor, if Ike’s race didn’t have that advantage for some reason. The other race would have the plus.



Funny, the point of my post was that blessing their body would only made sense for something packing some natural build behind it already (or something like/is armor).



There would still be plenty of ways to show that they have it (just have different skills that say it but do different things or so). I mean the BK got away with saying he had it just fine without as many side effects as we keep saying. You’d think they would have said that for everyone, instead of just saying only such and such has it (as in two others besides Ashera, there are still two others there you’d think would have had it, what with how they were leading the armies as well).
They did. The blessing scene? That was the way the game tells us that everyone has said blessing. It was pretty clear.

Besides, ther eis something that those guys with mantle have in commons: all of them were alive to see the war to seal Yune (Ashera, Dehginsea and Sephiran) . Make of that as you will.



Ah I did not disregard the rest of the post, I was bringing it up with regards to how the BK is unable to get his armor back actually, because a castle falling in on it sure does seem like it is enough to bypass it if you ask me.

Like I said, I’m pretty sure a building falling on you would hurt more than some guy just trying to cut you with a sword, or someone blasting you with a bomb that has been shown to level areas the size of where characters like Ike would fight.
Yeah, I would agree if said sword was not a legendary sword blessed by a goddess.

I already gave many reasons why the armour may not have been recovered. The point and the fact of it all is that the armour was never recovered. No matter how easy or hard it would have been to get it back, the fact remains that the armour was not recovered by Zelgius.

And that's that. No point in arguinng the cause if the effect is apparent.



RD clearly says that they searched for the BK after Ike’s fight in the castle in PoR and couldn’t find him.


Within 24 hours ok, so the only way there would be no armor is if it is like I say it is (and isn’t like you say it is) and was truly destroyed instead. Plus the fact that the gods themselves have clear limits (again being tired after a blessing or so) and admit themselves that they are not perfect clearly shows that the stuff they touch should be the same way still.

And, like I said, the japanese version had many different plot devices than the english translation.

And you are mixing both canons to support your argument now.


The Black Knight warped back and kept his armour in the english version, it was never destroyed.

In the japanese version it was simply trapped beneath the rubble and they did not find the corpse of the Black Knight itself.


I don't think you can mix the whole:

Elincia: The day after you fought, Bastian ordered some men to search the
remains of Nados Castle. There was no trace of the Black Knight. No
armor... No sword... No corpse.


From the english version with the soul coming back to his body and leaving the armour behind from the *** version.

You can only choose one. And the *** version IMO holds more strength.



Which would work if I was trying to point out that someone beat him with a blessing still (and why didn’t he have one again after that for that final area?), but my point is that something screwed his armor over.



Ok fine, the chaos emeralds clearly have some more differences than what things like Ike’s goddess has. In that they have powered up gods before as well.



Already talked about this.



This is what I don’t agree on. Both have made things that also have a lot in common.



Why wouldn’t you be able to defeat your own creations unless something ****ed up as happened such as in the case with Andross (or Star Spirits and Bowser)?

Because said creations were being supported by the other half of said goddess and were by that definition just as strong as her army and herself?



You know, if you are going to make comparisons like what you do, you might want to make an example that isn’t just asking if scissors will cut paper.

And to answer your question with regards to taking on armies why couldn’t you just remove the world instead of having to deal with BS? Well I’ll tell you why in regards to Star Fox’s reason, because there were still beings on there that weren’t ****ers, and were even willing to fight for what was theirs no matter how little the odds they had of keeping it.

(Gee what does that have in common with Ike’s FE canon?)

Because said creations were being supported by the other half of said goddess and were by that definition just as strong as her army and herself?


Oh no, of course something that gives you free control over space and time at full power wouldn’t destroy the world in an instant if used wrong. Such a thing is talking more along the lines of universe ****ing actually.

They have unlimited potential energy according to the canon, what you see is more along the lines of what the limits are from others drawing on them, not the emeralds themselves. (So Sonic’s 50 seconds/health bar for some games is really just from his own limits of using them, not them).

And you just gave them a limit. The emeralds themselves, while capable of transferring their own energies to other beings, they can do jack **** on their own.

And about said limit you said: basicaly, the emeralds are llimited by whatever is using them right then. If the strongest host in the series is not strong enough to support the whole unlimited potential of the emeralds and destroy the planet, then technicaly the emeralds are limited and can't destroy the universe because they rely on someone who can't even use their full potential to actually do something.



And then there is one issue that basicaly says "**** you" to that unlimited energy bull****. Sonic Unleashed. In the beginning of the game the Chaos Emerals were drained of their power and then were shattered. How can objects as with unlimited potential be defeated like that?

Aren't you missunderstanding what Eggman said? Maybe he only means that they are just pretty darn useful and that they have potential in many different fields?


One of my cases is in Sonic Battle when a weapon that was being powered by them that had more than enough power to destroy the planet (it took out an unknown amount of space in the area) and went out of control. Sonic had less than 30 seconds to stop it and to beat a super powered robot also being powered by them who had his base abilities but were stronger forms of them, oh and he did this without becoming Super (because said robot also mimics, which is how it got his abilities in the 1st place).

Oh and the chaos emeralds have also brought things back to life as well (Sonic himself actually).

See above. They may be strong, but they have clear limits and they require very powerfull hosts in order to be able to blow up planets.

If anything, I would say that the Emeralds are just overrated.


Which is funny because all the Krazoa have to do in order to destroy their planet would be to leave it, because if they do the magic energy sealing it together would be unleashed. Really their reason for staying is pretty much the same as Yune’s in a way.
And all one weakened half of a goddess has to do is saying that she no longer likes the planet to destroy it. You know, judgement.

While the Krazoa abandoning the planet would just result in it being fragmented, which would still takea long time to fully destroy it.




Anyway, the only thing I can say now is HOLY MOTHER OF MAMMAR-I mean, WALL OF TEXTS BATMAN!


 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,189
I don't have time to answer everything else ATM, so I'll just post this:

Because there is no valid proof that the Pokemon can do that? And only Gardevoir swears on her life to protect the trainer. Everything else can be meh occasionally.
You think Pokemon has not presented any proof showing that pokemon can use their moves to help a trainer? So, what do moves like "cut" or "dig" do? Or how about teleport, fly, surf, flash, headbutt (on trees), waterfall, soft-boiled (on other pokemon even), the idea of Miltank's move "milk drink" in general being drank by humans, and really I could go on but that would require me to look at 400+ moves and start picking them up.

Oh and I like how you think only Gardevoir is the only one willing to give it all to protect a trainer, you are aware that pokemon are used in a "blood sport" in the pokemon universe? Like the idea of being a "master" in the 1st place. I mean things like a pokeball clearly not doing anything to suppress free will should clearly say that the pokemon is fighting willingly for the trainer, but whatever.

Of course another thing in general about pokemon that is fun is that "dark tone" fanfiction is a dime a dozen as well:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5367085/1/The_Sun_Soul
I wonder why that might be? It surly must have nothing to do with what the pokedex says huh?

Uh, yeah they do. Give me some proof otherwise.
Ok, 1st of all may I ask why you have been ignoring the fact that I've brought up how Pokeballs don't suppress the idea of free will and that the red chain says that it will make them slaves?

Again, this is something where you are assuming way too much just off of very little data given from the game in one little area (in a series that has had clear translation problems even in that generation at that) and then flat out ignoring other facts said about the idea of how pokemon/Metroid power ups act in general (like how a pokemon could choose not to obey the trainer).

OMG, IT BOOSTS DRAGON/STEEL/WATER TYPE MOVES FOR THEM. Some other Pokemon have unique items as well. Ditto has Quick Powder, SUCH A BIG DEAL. All it does is increase the power of certain attacks. You could say Life Orb does the exact same thing (except it isn't so unique).
So, I'm glad you notice how small that stuff is and how them having it doesn't matter, so why is Pikachu's light ball being talked about like it makes him special again?

Of course I still want to know why you think pokeballs "reduce power" when the technology of the pokemon world clearly shows that they can convert life into computer coding and said life still keeps its free will. I mean the process of storing/transferring pokemon is clearly done on computers.

There is no error made with it, the pokemon captured are clearly the same ones in ever way as they were in the wild.
Ever look at Spinda?
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Form_differences#Spinda
How about Unknown?
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Form_differences#Unown

How about gender, or things like Gastrodon and Wormadam? Notice how those are the same even when you capture them and check up on them?

Of course considering how Spinda's over 9000 forms are captured just fine, you'd think you would stop saying pokeballs fail to capture something about the pokemon.

Where does Luigi show the ability to see Boos that are invisible?
I haven't dodged the question, if you had been paying attention to my posts in the 1st place you would have noticed me bring up that Boos turn invisible when someone is trying to look at them: SM64 says that boos when you look at them turn invisible, Paper Mario: TTYD uses the term they turn invisible to describe their ability.

If you don't get this: Are you saying that Mario and Luigi are just guessing the boos location when they try to sneak up on them? That isn't going to work out that well if you are, the things hunt in large packs and Mario and Luigi have to deal with their "locations" a lot of which they hang out.
 

Samochan

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
Sooo... basically pokemon cannot be at full power if captured in a pokeball right?

WRONG

If you read closely, you'll see the team Galactic HQ entry speaks of restraint and not restrict. There is a huge difference in those words. Restricting powers would basically mean their powers are forcibly toned down... while restraining them, just as the pokeball entry said all along and I said so too, means the pokemon themselves or the trainer restrain the usage of their full powers, aka taming the pokemon. Captured pokemons needn't to obey the trainer if the trainer is not a good one or skilled enough, but the trainer has the capacity of restraining them, either into their pokeballs or just by commanding them.

"According to myths, the Pokémon created Sinnoh with its power. However, capturing the Pokémon with a Poké Ball prevents it from using its full power... But with the Red Chain, the Pokémon can be shackled, and its power can be used without restraint..."

Preventing a poke from using it's full power is imo ambiguous on this context and this is the sole occasion this has ever even been mentioned. We also know this is from the same people who do not treat pokemons as partners or friends or even as tools. It could very well be full speculation, these same people want to slave these deities so ofc they wouldn't even understand the concept of friendship. Cynthia thinks the opposite of this ideology, but I cannot get a scrip if she mentioned anything about pokemon at their full power when with a trainer. But it has been said pokemon show their true potential when with a trainer, even as far as to get envious looks from wild pokemons, however it's obvious there must be some restraint unless they want their trainer to be harmed and other people as well. Even pokedex entries support this, such as Gardevoir's. "Gardevoir has the ability to read the future. If it senses impending danger to its Trainer, this Pokémon is said to unleash its psychokinetic energy at full power. "

Restrain:
" 1. (transitive) To control or keep in check.
2. (transitive) To deprive of liberty.
3. (transitive) To restrict or limit."

However as we very well know from Arceus event and Celebi event, it's still quite within their powers to put up a magnificent performance after getting captured. Like *cough* traveling through time and *cough* creating new life out of nothingness.

Besides what would we even know how much pokemons are being restrained when captured, when the obvious show us differently like above? They as good as are not. <_<

And the whole restraint is a moot point in any case if you cannot prove for example, how much Groudon's powers are toned down after capture.
 

Ganonsburg

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,083
I haven't dodged the question, if you had been paying attention to my posts in the 1st place you would have noticed me bring up that Boos turn invisible when someone is trying to look at them: SM64 says that boos when you look at them turn invisible, Paper Mario: TTYD uses the term they turn invisible to describe their ability.

If you don't get this: Are you saying that Mario and Luigi are just guessing the boos location when they try to sneak up on them? That isn't going to work out that well if you are, the things hunt in large packs and Mario and Luigi have to deal with their "locations" a lot of which they hang out.
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize what you were saying.

Okay, there are two bits of info that you use to verify your claim.
1) Boos turn invisible
2) Because players manipulate Mario/Luigi to find the boos, that means Mario/Luigi can see them.

These two things operate in different worlds so to speak. 1 deals with what Mario/Luigi are subjected to, and 2 deals with what the player is subjected to. These are completely different. If you don't believe me, I'd suggest checking out Roosterteeth's "Immersion."

Now, you can accept one or the other. Either the boos don't turn completely invisible, which is how the players see it, or that the boos turn completely invisible and Mario and Luigi only defeat them by catching them off guard when they aren't invisible.

:034:
 

PowerBomb

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@_clinton: If I cut off PT's arm, Milk Drink sure as hell won't heal the wound and replace it. 'Cut' is for clearing vegetation. Fly is... flying to other cities, locations, etc. Surf is water-based transport. In fact, all of these don't do squat do actually heal the trainer. Soft-boiled is a self-infliction move, it can't be spread. Even if you were to decide 'well yes it could', it's not going to make a difference. Same deal with Milk Drink mentioned above.

Sheesh, Milk Drink might be nutritious, but it's not going to ****ing heal the trainer if the trainer has a catastrophic injury.

Samochan said:
And the whole restraint is a moot point in any case if you cannot prove for example, how much Groudon's powers are toned down after capture.
Obviously the effect to change the globe's weather patterns is reduced to weather pattern change within a small area, and only temporary relative to actual storms/droughts. The outside area doesn't get affected, right?
 

_clinton

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If I cut off PT's arm, Milk Drink sure as hell won't heal the wound and replace it. 'Cut' is for clearing vegetation. Fly is... flying to other cities, locations, etc. Surf is water-based transport. In fact, all of these don't do squat do actually heal the trainer. Soft-boiled is a self-infliction move, it can't be spread. Even if you were to decide 'well yes it could', it's not going to make a difference. Same deal with Milk Drink mentioned above.

Sheesh, Milk Drink might be nutritious, but it's not going to ****ing heal the trainer if the trainer has a catastrophic injury.
I think you missed the bloody point of my post which was to prove you wrong in how you said the trainer's pokemon never help him in anyway (in case that is what you were going for, I wasn't sure though).

Oh and you might want to check your facts on soft-boiled, because you can use it out of battle on other pokemon.

Plus while things like milk drink may not be able to heal any serious injuries, but it doesn't mean that the PT doesn't have any moves out there that could (Wish, recover, and so on).
 

PowerBomb

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I think you missed the bloody point of my post which was to prove you wrong in how you said the trainer's pokemon never help him in anyway (in case that is what you were going for, I wasn't sure though).
I was going for like, healing the trainer. If I punched the trainer in the face, gave him a black eye, etc. Healing injuries like that.
Oh and you might want to check your facts on soft-boiled, because you can use it out of battle on other pokemon.
Didn't know that, sorry.
Plus while things like milk drink may not be able to heal any serious injuries, but it doesn't mean that the PT doesn't have any moves out there that could (Wish, recover, and so on).
Recover is self-inflicting. Only affects the user. Wish doesn't help if the trainer dies. Same with Healing Wish/Lunar Dance, as they require the trainer to work right.
 

_clinton

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Now, you can accept one or the other. Either the boos don't turn completely invisible, which is how the players see it, or that the boos turn completely invisible and Mario and Luigi only defeat them by catching them off guard when they aren't invisible.
Right, I like how both of those options favor your view more, it’s not like they couldn’t just be becoming 100% invisible for the player’s sake, but “in game” really be flat out gone, yet the Brothers can deal with them anyway because they can still see them somehow. **** it’s not like the game’s actually do try that every now and then in the Mario games (where they remove the player’s advantage and just have the boos talk/shock randomly with Mario and such).

Well the term "invisible" doesn't really fit what the boos do 100% as well, it is only “one part” of it, they also become completely immune to harm because they lose a physical body or something like that. So really they do become completely invisible IMO because of that one fact right there, it isn’t just some “illusion” like the lens of truth would uncover, they really leave your plane of existence and things can’t interact with them, technically the “truth” would be that they are really “invisible” and Link is ****ed because the Mario brothers use a power identical to them, how funny is that?

So I don’t see how they would catch something “off guard” like that, they sort of have an advantage of never being hurt unless they are trying to hurt something else, because that is only when they try to hunt.

However, another fact I’d like to bring up is the Mario Brothers know how they work in the 1st place. I mean one of the power ups in SMG turns Mario or Luigi into a boo itself.

However, I have a question for you; does the lens of truth revel a foe like a simple Poe for Link to smack up some? You know, a foe that is pretty much a boo but minus the lamp, I mean they can’t get hurt when they are invisible as well just to let you know.

(Fun fact the lens doesn’t, so you don’t have to look at all, I’m just letting you know how the lens revealing the “truth” isn’t always a “good thing” when it comes to some match ups).

Granted I’m aware that the lens of truth reveal “ghosts” like Darmani, but you are aware that Darmani is a ghost that is begging for help right? He isn’t a wrathful spirit trying to kill Link for no reason.

Didn't know that, sorry.
NP

Only affects the user. Wish doesn't help if the trainer dies. Same with Healing Wish/Lunar Dance, as they require the trainer to work right.
Right, so do you think the trainer is going to die right away or what? Personally I think with all of the messed up things the pokemon have been shown to be able to do in the games they should be able to cure some ****ed up stuff, hell some of them have been shown to bring things back to life in general.

Oh and I don't see why recover only affecting the user matters as far as game's go, it seems like it is more of a forced limit than a serious thing. I mean how come a pokemon that learns recover, which are mainly psychic, in fact like 90% of them are not use that on someone else when it is done with their mind. God it's not like it would be something that would ****ing be broken, I mean even the moves that can be used on the field that heal cost a bit more than a single PP.
 

PowerBomb

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_clinton said:
Right, so do you think the trainer is going to die right away or what? Personally I think with all of the messed up things the pokemon have been shown to be able to do in the games they should be able to cure some ****ed up stuff, hell some of them have been shown to bring things back to life in general.
Yes, I do think the trainer will die if hit by a move. Most of the characters here have the ability to easily kill wild beasts. Not a big deal if it's a boy. And I think that Pokemon can't cure some ****ed up stuff. Ho-Oh brings stuff back blah blah blah.

Oh and I don't see why recover only affecting the user matters as far as game's go, it seems like it is more of a forced limit than a serious thing. I mean how come a pokemon that learns recover, which are mainly psychic, in fact like 90% of them are not use that on someone else when it is done with their mind. God it's not like it would be something that would ****ing be broken, I mean even the moves that can be used on the field that heal cost a bit more than a single PP.
This isn't PSI Heal, this is Recover. We're not changing the mechanics of the move. Milk Drink and Softboiled only affect the user as well, correct? They aren't Psychic-based.

Recover only affects oneself. Nothing else. At all.
 

_clinton

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Still not really done with everything.

Ok, fair share. Falcon wins.
K then.

I still find this exact one difficult, and Ike's matchups in general. But really, if he didn't had that blessing yes, you'd be right here.
So, here is a question for you. Where in Ike’s canon does he fight anything that can smack him at the speed of sound?

There are no ice melons 'here' for Yoshi to use. And yes, eggs would hurt Pikachu. But also, wouldn't lightning bolts hurt Yoshi as well? I personally think lightning > Yoshi. Pikachu also packs stuff like Double Team and Thunder Wave so no, I don't see Yoshi winning.
What makes you think Yoshi can’t use ice melons? Ever play the 1st YI for the SNES? The game does a good job showing that Yoshi can store his items like Mario can with his power ups.

Also what makes you think Pikachu has the range advantage? Or that a single Pikachu has control over lightning when he according to the pokedex only has electrical pouches on his cheeks (oh and that a group is needed to use lightning storms, don’t forget that).

Where does Bowser pull chunks of land? Bowser's Inside Story? I recently played that and was not really impressed by Bowser (except the parts where he becomes giant of coarse, that was pretty awesome).

Bowser indeed would be stronger than Ike, but Ike isn't weak either. Without the Star Rod and stuff like that, I personally would see Ike beating Bowser here. Ike's sword outranges Bowser's punches as well, and it's not like Ike cannot resist Bowser's fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFQZ49KzflM&feature=related
1:23-5:27 is where you see Bowser get begged to help move an island. He’d do it w/o any issue if it wasn’t for the fact that his body was ****ed over at the start of the game.

Also, I like how you are saying w/o something like the star rod Bowser would lose, so where would Ike be w/o that overrated blessing again?

It’s not like Bowser is only able to fight physically, the guy has black magic with enough power to cause earthquakes (MRPG), summon lightning (PM), cover himself in rocks with control over his the earth (SMG), could transform foes to the point where they become helpless if given a chance (SMB, SMB3, MW with age regression), just won’t die (NSMB) even when clearly only bones left, and I could go on with this list but I think I’ve proven my point that Bowser>Ike with their natural powers. I mean what would stop Bowser from turning Ike into a mouse, or make him have to wear diapers again or such with his magic? Ike isn’t that great at dealing with magic as far as things that can kill him in his canon you know.

Oh and how come you aren’t impressed by Bowser in BIS?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWn-UUyOV_w&feature=related
I think he could put up a fight pretty well if he gets to fight at 100% “natural” power, but still lacking in some of the other stuff he can do.

Ganondorf isn't a paw of the goddesses,
Ah, maybe pawn isn’t the right word, I’m thinking bug. The only reason he is a threat at all to the normal world is because Din and those three other gods won’t just appear and smite his *** because they are too busy getting a show out of his behavior of making people suffer because of what a ****er he is, and because he is such a small threat in general, what with how he can’t have the full power of the triforce canon wise and how there are tools around that could **** him if someone can grab them.

I mean to shut the people up when Link isn’t around they just flooded the world instead of just appearing and ****ing him fully (shows how much they care about their kids huh?), and thinking that flood didn’t **** him just as much as the people is just silly.

Ganon manipulated the power of the Gods of creation.
Ah no, 1st off the word manipulation is not what Ganondorf did in this case, I mean the power in case you forgot is neutral according to LttP it doesn’t care what you want, and was pretty much just waiting for the 1st person to show up and get it, that isn’t “manipulation.” 2nd off he mainly only got 1/3rd of that power from a god that is only 1/3rd of a “full god” of creation if put together. You are aware of course that Din didn’t make the world herself; she had help from two others.

Also the fact that the ways shown that could open the door are funny as well, I mean in order to open the door you needed three symbols from Hyrule’s races that were given to them. There are only two ways the door would open because of that info, either the races that were at odds with each other would fight each other and get the jewels by force because of what a great treasure they are and maybe find the door because of knowing about it or such (as the games show might have had a chance of happening, I mean less than 10 years ago according to OoT there was a war, and by OoT there still is some tension between the races), or they would make amends and maybe put the jewels there by accident.

Actually, the armour wasn't lost. At least, not in the English version.
Um, it was actually according to the Japanese version, which is the official one. According to some other users here, the armor was left in the castle because of a failed warp and sense the armor isn’t found within less than 24 hours of a search according to the canon from the next game, from info who is an ally of Ike’s at that. The logical reason is that the castle being 100% destroyed naturally ended up destroying the blessed armor.

Either Ike or Bastian pointed out in RD that there was no corpse or armour found in the collapsed castle. This comes out of my head, and I don't know where exactly in the game this is mentioned. But I played RD a lot so I'd know.

Ike's 'blessing' is a weird one. But I sort of agree with you here.
Then you should agree that it has a limit for what the blessing can take when it comes to punishment.

Kirby has lots of abilities as well. Why is Mario stronger btw?
Too bad Kirby’s abilities don’t make up for Mario having “better tools” like I said.
Oh and Mario is stronger maybe because he has been shown throwing “buildings” and “building sized foes” and so on and Kirby hasn’t?

Yeah, you'd think that as how fast he dodges Bullet Bills and stuff in SMW. However, in most 3D games like Mario 64 and Galaxy, it appears that even I would be able to dodge a Bullet Bill. <_< I'm leaning more towards URMRGAY now here for a good base of Mario's speed...
So, I like how you are thinking him dodging bullet bills and stuff is weak for some reason, btw in Sonic games bullets look pretty slow in that when you see foes fire them off, yet for some reason you aren’t just saying that the game isn’t being slowed down to help the player there.

BTW am I the only one who notices the large chunks of land that are in the games, Mario crosses in very short amounts of time in all of these games?

Really, Samus is outspeeding mostly anyone here now. Even physically she seems better now than Mario, something you wouldn't think either based on her 2D games.
You mean like how she clears large chunks of land, moves just fine in water like it is land, and so on before that video? You really couldn’t get that she was impressive “physically” based off her 2D games before? **** I’ve already thought of her as better off physically than a good chunk of the thread just based off her in the Zero Suit.

Overall I think she is better than Mario just mostly because of the whole water differences, after all I can’t think of any real good water power ups that Mario has besides “frog suit.”

What is your theory behind Donkey Kong being able to smash bananas out of the ground?
You mean in DKC with those bananas that are clearly in the ground because while the people where stealing DK’s bananas they dropped a ton of them and they got thrown on the ground and then buried because of the hectic weather and such according to the game in general?

Hell they aren’t the only things buried in the ground, because there are items in that game that are buried hard enough on purpose to the point where you can’t just unearth them with a ground slap, you need a bit more force really.

So what does that say about DK’s strength? Still think he is stronger than Mario, Wario, or Bowser when he can’t even unearth a steel barrel/Rambi Token in a pile of leaves and dirt at the start of the game and instead has to leap off a ****ing tree/other high grounds to build enough force from the landing?

If Mario borrows tornado power for a spinning attack,
Ah no, he isn’t “borrowing” tornado power for a spinning attack, he spins fast enough and hits hard enough to overpower tornado winds and use them as a tool in the less than one second Mario is spinning.

Ike beated Ashera, the goddess of order and half part of the goddess of creation of the continent (cause yeah likely, all Fire Emblem worlds excist in the same planet I'm thinking). Pit did something similar, but I'm overall more impressed by Ike, than Pit.
Ike did it with more than a little help from Yune, he couldn’t kill her with even the blessing (which again proves my point on the blessing’s limit, it isn’t anywhere near “real god power”). Yune had to let Ike “become her” in order for Ike to have any help of beating her when it came to landing a killing blow that really didn’t even fully finish her off, it just allowed Yune to take control over her.

For Pit did his by himself just naturally. Ike’s blessing by itself is in no ****ing way enough to out power someone that beat a being that beat a god w/o any help from said god in return.

Oh and there are over three worlds in the FE canon, they aren’t on the same planet, Roy beats one of his world’s gods canon wise by using that sword and the weapons. Just by there being a god in Roy’s game sort of makes it clear Roy is in a different FE canon from Ike (even though they have a lot in common)

Simply, she shoots the trainer before he can send out his Pokemon. A simple shot would honestly be enough as the trainer is just a normal regular kid. If the trainer manages to use his Pokemon, then yeah.. Samus would be in big trouble, no doubt.
So, quick question: how does the trainer win any match based off just thinking “Samus can fire off a shot fast enough” before using any pokemon despite the fact that a trainer has been shown to be more than willing to let his pokemon travel with him in the 1st place outside of their balls such as in games like HG/SS/Yellow?

That sort of thinking pretty much should work with any character.

Canon wise, I think the trainer has the most destructive power.
Ness and Lucas have full powers of creation under their belts naturally and there isn’t any question of them using it or not if they want to (unlike with things like the trainer, Palkia and Dialga and so on don’t have to listen to him telling them to recreate the world if they don’t want to).

I honestly don't get your logic at all... Mario should beat Samus, but Zero Suit Samus should beat Link and Roy? Link and Roy aren't exactly normal humans either anymore. Link never really was, as he was the one chosen by the Triforce of Courage, and Roy is his continents biggest war hero / general (canoncally speaking, he'd be stronger than Hector or Eliwood in their prime most likely- as well as in game).
Zamus could beat Link or Roy is the key word, it’s a draw I see for the match. And fun fact I think Mario will beat Link and Roy as well.

-Mario has enough power to naturally **** up worlds and such if he wanted to (Bowser certainly has shown to do that and would win if that **** Mario or Luigi weren’t stopping him all the time, but guess who always beats him?), and 6 others in his canon lead up to have with him universe affecting powers.

-Link may be chosen to use the ToC, but he still is a normal human by Zelda canon standards according to the games, he just has a ton of positive “normal human” values because that is why the ToC chose him in the 1st place in case you don’t get that.

-Roy being a war hero/general for his continent is fine and dandy, but it’s not like he is ever called “above” human according to his canon as well. He is using a weapon that is part of a set of weapons that could cause world ****ing I’ll admit, but it’s not like he has been shown to be a pro with all of those weapons (or even be able to hold all of them), he just was “chosen” by the strongest of them (because the weapons have a soul as well).

-I mean Snake is a war hero who has saved the world three times, and actually has some info on his canon that makes him a bit more than normal as far as human limits go.

Link also has stuff like Nayru's Love. ZSS really can't touch him. Ice Arrows would freeze her, and really, ZSS would die much easier than Link or Roy would.
Wait which Link do you think we are talking about? This thread clearly shows that the Link Zamus was fighting with was the TP Link as the thread went on.
But whatever, what makes you think Zamus couldn’t just outlast NL by knocking him down or avoiding him until NL wears off if it is just OoT Adult Link. Oh and I like how you think arrows would work on Zamus, you are aware that outside of the suit Samus is powerful enough and fast enough to still out maneuver a bunch of pirates with guns. More than just Zero Mission shows what Samus is like w/o a suit.

Logically, Samus can't even damage Ganon.
Yes, because Ganondorf taking things like a blessed sword to the chest is so telling on how he could take a bomb that would blow up a good area that they would be fighting in at in general. Man, it’s so fun to know that you think he could always repair himself with that large amount of god power whenever various Links beat him with a normal sword in some games, totally compares to just someone beating foes that can move at the speed of sound like her.

So, why wouldn’t Samus’ anti-matter beam or such work on Ganondorf again? (talking about MP2)

Samus taking out things that can alter life is also funny when you think she can’t beat Ganondorf.

Ganondorf still has his beast form though with the trident so I don't really see any possiblity of anyone beating him.
Right, because he is so much better in that form, he hasn’t been beat by enough force at all in games like OoA/OoS.

Except Link. But only in Zelda games, not here.
Various Links would win when it comes to that still, god several of them are powerful enough to beat him normally in the games already.
Someone like Yink just got stronger as his canon went on from OoT, must suck for Ganondorf to lose to a 10 year old that he made wet his pants and flee to the temple of time 2 years ago in OoT.

In LttP, Ganon DID create a whole different universe paralel to Hyrule, except it's all covered in darkness. He did this cause he had the full Triforce, thus most likely; LttP is the strongest Ganon has ever been.
One must wonder why Ganondorf has never wished for anything more after getting that one wish in that game? Nice to know how he didn’t stop Link when he was ****ing up his world that he made nice and slowly.

Of course WW sort of gives some idea on that IMO, maybe you sort of are required to keep balance as you have the triforce otherwise the thing goes away. Plus the fact that Ganondorf got a hold of that thing after a ton of bloodshed according to the back story makes me think that he won on those that “opposed him” or something like that.

Wouldn't be so quick to say that, as beating Ganondorf required special weapons. Beating Bowser didn't, except in Paper Mario 64 maybe?
Mario and Luigi are just linked to Bowser from being star children as well, pretty sure that has something to do with beating Bowser than them “being normal.”

What with how Bowser has been a universal threat as of SMG.

Mario universe doesn't use this a lot, only in the RPG games.
Here are two examples to also prove you wrong some more:
SM64-Mario stole the power Bowser was using
SMG-Mario stole the power Bowser was using

Are you aware of the game PokePark Wii: Pikachu's Great Adventure? It's a Japan only game, starring Pikachu. Has a lot of battle as well following a new 'system' although it's a kind of childish one. Here, Pika is able to beat stuff like Mew (or it's transformations) and Groudon and the likes... Just check out some videos for yourself.
Yes, that totally sounds realistic to what the pokedex says about the little rodent.
So as far as games that have never made it to America that are totally realistic, ever check out those games about Tingle? He totally saves the world in the 1st one from total destruction from a foe “totally about 90x worse than anything Ganondorf ever was able to do.”

(Well he saves the world at least anyway.)

Why wouldn't Toon Link be able to beat Meta Knight sword on sword?
Um, maybe because Toon Link has never had any statement saying he can swing that sword at the speeds Samus can run at using the speed booster?
You know, I’ve only said that more than once, MK has speed of sound reaction time because he can work his sword at those speeds.

Kirby has defeated Meta Knight also couple of times, and I think that Toon Link is overall better than Kirby, sword-wise.
No, Kirby beating MK up close in sword play when MK has supersonic swordplay to brag about only shows how much this thread is underestimating Kirby just because he is like the size of a newborn baby.

Well maybe not, but Toon Link still has stuff like elemental arrows, Magic Armour and the boomerang to help him beat Meta Knight.
MK can teleport, block in general at supersonic speeds, use a sword beam as a long range option, (if he didn’t have any issue at all getting close to Tink with just something like teleporting it would be helpful IMO), oh and the guy can fly.

He can heal as well, and is able to use various elemental attacks such as what is in this video, oh and MK shows some nice resistance to being frozen as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX3VMVdGGvE

The Wind Waker could easily create tornadoes, as those frog gods of wind learned you that. Sure, it's only used for transportation in game, but that doesn't mean it's still a tornado.
Totally means Tink can fling them out as fast as MK can swing his sword huh?

First Link outranges Meta Knight by a lot, and the Great Spin + Magic Armour would do huge damage.
Yes, because Link can totally fly and is also able to react to someone swinging a sword at 700+ MPH at him, totally sounds like Link could block that. I’m also pretty sure that with MK having his sword being larger than him makes me question the “range” plus you are speaking about as well.

Oh and a great spin is totally more potent than just out throwing fireballs, creating a lightning field, and so on.

Ike has ranged sword waves and Aether, as well as actual war experience and goddess-killing powers. He resists / survives high leveled magic spells as well.
Yes, MK has totally not ever been in a war, so him commanding his own ship, dealing with powerful demons with his wonderful magic swords, must be worth beans huh?

Roy with his Sword of Seals would also be a huge challenge for Meta Knight in a sword fight.
How, they are both using super powerful magic swords that can **** things out, only MK chances are swings his faster, flies, teleports, has elemental magic, and so on.

Yes the Halberd. Stupid thing is gonna place Meta Knight so much higher than he should imo...
MK is so much more of a threat than the ship really.

Fox, Falco, and Wolf I think could bring it down if it was only ships that were fighting, too bad MK can bring them down and **** them just from teleporting/flying to them.

Mario, Luigi, and such could fly to it. Some characters on the ground can knock it down.

Flying in storms is simply dangerous.
Yeah, for “real world” ships, there is no way they would be as deadly to things like the Halberd, or the Arwings and such.
The Halberd is revived from the watery grave in KSS and flies in space even, and have you seen what the Arwings go through in the Star Fox games? I’m pretty sure the idea of “sun’s surface” is a bit worse than a tornado.

Weren't you mr. Anti-game mechanics?
Um, no I’m only against the game mechanic if it doesn’t make **** sense/clashes with game information and so on, ever look into that and how I’ve said that more than once?

Things like HP/health in general are game mechanics as well, notice how I’m not saying something like Ness/Lucas will never die or so on?

Hurricane Spin, potions, Ice Arrows, Magic Armour... sure Meta Knight could have the advantage in sword skill, but Toon Link has all of those items. I don't see him losing either.
MK sure can’t heal to outlast any damage that he would take as he can’t harm Tink (not like he can’t just knock him down as he fights).
**** I don’t see why he couldn’t just avoid Tink as he spins in his hurricane spin then smack him up a bit as he recovers from it. Oh and in case you missed it, Ice arrows wouldn’t freeze him IMO due to that MK fight I just showed.

The Mother series leave too much to your imagination. I think this is your personal view of Ness and Lucas' powers, but they by far aren't mine. I still see them how they are in their battle menus, with a bit of personal imagination to it but nothing really impressive. Well actually, yes they are pretty impressive but nothing that Samus couldn't handle I think. Especially since Ness is alone this time around.
How does it leave too much to your imagination when the game shows you several clear hints that their powers aren’t to be ****ed with, Lucas remakes everything at the end of Mother 3, Giygas is worshipped as a god in Mother 2 and Ness has the same powers as him and strikes fear into said being. BTW Giygas also destroys the universe according to the canon at some point; he also drags your team into a hell hole, and fun fact. The people Ness has touched in his game pray for him.

She can't. She's just a fighter, a warrior.
You think Ness and Lucas don’t become a fighter/warrior?

She doesn't has any nuke options in her Power Suit no.
Yet, Ness and Lucas could if they needed to, such as what Lucas did need to do.

Cause she IS ****ing dangerous. In Samus' case, it's not only her power, but mostly her skill which makes her strong.
Oh yeah, because Ness and Lucas totally aren’t self trained as the game goes on, leveling up in their game makes sense for starters as well (how else do they get stronger as they go on man?), unlike in several of the Mario RPGs, pokemon, and some other things for this thread (so what part of Samus picking up things in her games make sense again in most of them?)

Then again, she's still packing stuff as Phazon, Speed Booster, Hyper Mode ability and many more stuff.
Yes, because psychokinesis at a god level totally isn’t an overpowered idea in many other forms of fiction besides EB (X-Men for starters).

Those machines Lucas fights in Mother 3 aren't, by far as big as the Halberd is. PK Flash honestly SUCKS. Really. It does.
Size matters to you? And the machine doesn’t ****ing matter when all you have to do to take out the Halberd would be to target certain areas of it.

Oh and I’m pretty sure things like that small meteor shower that showed up when Lucas unlocked his power would take out the Halberd that is shown at the end of Mother 3, after all it certainly takes out those ships that transport the pork troops around just fine.

And I’m also certain that a meteor shower is a bit more dangerous than making a tornado or two, but go on and guess what the end game of Mother 3 flung out as well for a farewell party to the current world?

Oh and PK flash only sucks in Mother 3 because the Mother series has always had issues with balance in case you haven’t noticed that, Lucas mind ****ing you chances are would not be easy to blow off.

Unless you mean Meta Knight? Well, I'm sure that if Meta Knight is in state of crying or whatever, he'd hand over the pilloting to some other Kirby enemy.
So, that totally follows the rules of this thread super well huh?

Diddy has the Gyrocopter. Told you that before as well, I even explained fully what it could do and posted a vid yet you don't see me *****ing you forgot right? :)
Did you look at your old post before saying “told you before?” I was listing Wario’s flight options because you said Diddy could just stay out of Wario’s range. I mean saying Diddy’s “plane” isn’t enough of a hint that I’m talking about the Gyrocopter (just got the ammo mixed up in this case, oh and name because I was that lazy when I made the reply, sort of like now really) or the jet pack as a 2nd resort for Diddy trying to run from Wario?

Wario could just enter into a gun fight in the air with Diddy and his plane. Logically they both will end up on the ground in the end just because that is where Wario wants them!

Oh and saying Wario’s flight options weren’t impressive to you as a reason to forget about them is funny, because he has a bit more than “two of them” and with more weapons as well on them (such as himself).

You see what things that little guy dodges?
Please show me, because I’m sure that a psychotic alligator dressed like a pirate/mad scientist/whatever with a trigger happy finger bent on just beating an ape on his island/destroying the island except for that one game where DK and Diddy eat a ton of bananas at the end given to them from a bunch of banana people is so much better than the large number of world threat sized demons Wario has fought with while exploring various dimensions away from ours at the same time.

Yeah, DK64 is really the last DK game I take “seriously” besides maybe “JB” which doesn’t have Diddy in it anyway. King of Swing feels like a step back for K. Rool and what he did last time (try and destroy an ****ing Island), and Jungle Climber is about as serious as Tingle’s games with what is happening in it (unless you think “The Wizard of Oz” but with Tingle is totally serious).

It's by far more impressive than the Bullet Bill level in Super Mario World which according to you guys made Mario basically Superman.
Well I was also saying Mario was super fast because he darts through large chunks of land in little to no time at all, but whatever.

I'm saying that Diddy and Wario are still even, but Diddy has the advantage of stuff like Going Bananas, the guitar, Orange Grenades and insane dodging.
Yes, because Wario who can clearly move fast enough to dart across water if need be is totally “slow on his feet.”

Oh and bombs are a far greater threat to Diddy than Wario for how well he uses them, Wario also has ways of seeking cover from Diddy’s fire power for starters in case you forgot arty Wario form.

Oh and I like how you think a guy who gets smashed into a bouncy ball is going to get hurt by a sound wave from a monkey playing a guitar badly when that move doesn’t even take out any foe beyond the basic small to semi large grunt krocs. or wouldn’t be able to outlast going bananas when btw Wario is able to rebuild himself as far as the games have shown in more ways than his reaction skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLLGQU9CWx4&feature=related
5:30 or so, so what would happen to DK or Diddy if they got cut in half, just wondering?

You aren't convincing me Wario beats DK either. To me, Donkey Kong is clearly stronger, more durable and can take hits better than Wario. I've got Jungle Beat game mechanics, game play and overall DK awesome ness with me to prove that.
Yes, because JB shows DK being burnt to a crisp, or cut in half as far as durable or taking hits goes, or how about a risk of getting crushed? What happens if DK gets pinched between two chunks of land in the games?

Plus how is DK stronger, please show me how?

DK can't do that you mean? You really, really mean that? O.o
Please show me DK moving an island like I did with the older video with Bowser, or him moving large chunks of land just in general!

In SM64DS, Wario is still the slowest.
Yeah, and Wario doesn’t have his bull charge or a ton of other ****ing moves he has had in his canon in SM64DS as well, how about that? There are better games out there that do a better job at showing off his skills IMO than that one which is just trying to balance the characters in the 1st place (god you have to love how Mario lost the metal and ghost forms in the remake)

Wario can't have a metal box here.
Oh and why not? He has been shown to store items as well if he needs to.

Ice Rod I dunno about, but DK is able to resist fire and ice just fine.
So what about the whole creating storms, and what fire and ice does DK resist? And that you think makes Diddy better than Wario still, even though K. Rool can clearly freeze Diddy just fine in DKC2’s fight.

That's one scenario. What if Toon Link first freezes Snake with a Ice Arrow?
How is he going to hit him when he can’t see him? Are you saying he is just going to fire randomly? It wouldn’t be that hard to avoid that, Ice arrows have a ton of cool down time and start up time compared to normal arrows.

Plus I’m pretty sure he can’t use arrows like that while packing other magic anyway (or at least it is that way in OoT/MM, I haven’t played WW for a while).

Of course it’s not like Snake isn’t bad *** enough and able to outlast him already normally, what with how he can handle ****loads of radiation, I’m pretty sure an ice arrow would:
A. Not freeze him that long
B. Have the arrow part not hurt him that much because of the armor he is packing
C. Snake can heal his body naturally because of all those wonderful machines in him, just letting you know.

Personally I don’t know why he couldn’t just leave a playboy around for Tink to find, then get him when he is distracted by that stuff.

I also don’t see how it would be that hard for Snake to disarm Tink, even if he can’t physically hurt him.

Magic Armour would still protect Toon Link, and potions would heal damage and magic meter.
I still want to know why a rocket launcher is less impressive force wise than a sword or something that you think a rl wouldn’t phase through magic armor that just protects from damage just because of no reason, but whatever, the part where you said Kirby, Mario, and pokemon being unrealistic sort of needs to include Zelda on there as well.

Besides, the only REAL advantage Fox has in the Arwing and that he flies, Ike should be able to handle Fox easily if he was on the ground.
Right, the cloaking device, sniper rifle, gatling gun, rocket launcher that locks on to targets, jet pack, damage barriers, land mines making it unsafe around certain areas, grenades, and so on that Fox has as shown in SFA really makes him weak on foot.

Of course another fun fact is that Snake has a ton of stuff like this as well (just not as sci-fi like). To name some stuff Sniper rifles, blasters (solar energy in fact for one of them), machine guns, shot guns, grenade launchers, night vision, thermal vision (so he should see foes if they can hide), mines, and so on. The list goes on.

Yes, I do think the trainer will die if hit by a move.
So what makes you think that the pokemon couldn't potentially save him in the process of that before he dies?

And I think that Pokemon can't cure some ****ed up stuff. Ho-Oh brings stuff back blah blah blah.
Ok then, completely ignore that part of the canon where it says pokemon can cure some ****ed up stuff then.

Milk Drink and Softboiled only affect the user as well, correct?
Milk Drink and Softboiled can be used on the field to help others, so it is more than just affecting the user, but like I said it takes more than just PP to help others (HP). I don't see any reason for why recover can't be used the same way, but whatever. I already have proof showing that affecting life in a positive way such as bringing it back is on the ability list of some pokemon (god like, but whatever).
 

Samochan

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I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
Obviously the effect to change the globe's weather patterns is reduced to weather pattern change within a small area, and only temporary relative to actual storms/droughts. The outside area doesn't get affected, right?
>_> Groudon and Kyogre only affected the area where they actually fought/where you could find those pokemons and the effects are the exact same regardless if you have captured them or not and besides you cannot see what happens outside of the battle to the area, though raining in battle= raining in area. And after the battle they restore weather to normal. (not certain if they affected a wider area besides sootopolis city and around it when they battled, but on emerald you could find those pokes based on weather conditions on routes). Drought/Drizzle affect the battle as long as it goes on or it's negated by another weather condition/air lock. You don't even need to have them in play to keep up sun/rain lol. It leans more towards that their powers don't change a bit. Then we have celebi, who travels through time and Arceus who creates newborn pokemon out of nothing.

Besides it hasn't ever been said their abilities affect the whole globe. I imagine it would be too much of a drag and instead they control the weather in the area they currently are on.

"Groudon has the power to scatter rain clouds and make water evaporate with light and heat."
"Kyogre has the power to create massive rain clouds that cover the entire sky and bring about torrential downpours. "


--

Clinton, recovery moves restore purely the energy levels of pokemon, known otherwise as HP. This is a fact, for example you cannot recover a fainted pokemon with hp-restoring items or moves. They cannot heal wounds either.
 

WhatIsRaizen?

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Win = +1. Loss = -1. Draw = no change.

Current Match-Up:
THE SPACE WOLF Vs. THE PSYCHIC CHILD

Wolf Vs. Lucas

:wolf: Vs. :lucas:

Round 6, Match 9.

Overall Results

Wins +6:

:ganondorf:, :samus2:

Wins +5:

:ike:

Wins +4:


Wins +3:

:ness2:, :fox:, :bowser2:, :luigi2:

Wins +2:

:sonic:, :peach:, :wolf:, :metaknight:, :pt:

Wins +1:

:mewtwo:, :lucas:, :mario2:, :toonlink:, :younglinkmelee:

Neutral:

:lucario:, :pikachu:, :pichu:, :diddy:, :snake:

Loss -1:

:wario:, :dk2:, :kirby2:, :pit:, :roymelee:, :link2:, :falco:

Loss -2:

:marth:, :zerosuitsamus:, :jigglypuff:, :falcon:

Loss -3:

:zelda:, :dedede:

Loss -4:

:gw:, :yoshi2:

Loss -5:

:olimar:

Loss -6:

:rob:, :popo:

Vs.
 

PowerBomb

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_clinton said:
So what makes you think that the pokemon couldn't potentially save him in the process of that before he dies?
Because I doubt any of those healing moves actually have superior regenerative abilities. PT isn't going to grow back an arm/important organ.

_clinton said:
Ok then, completely ignore that part of the canon where it says pokemon can cure some ****ed up stuff then.
Just to be on the same page... what's your definition of ****ed up stuff?

Samochan said:
Besides it hasn't ever been said their abilities affect the whole globe. I imagine it would be too much of a drag and instead they control the weather in the area they currently are on.

"Groudon has the power to scatter rain clouds and make water evaporate with light and heat."
"Kyogre has the power to create massive rain clouds that cover the entire sky and bring about torrential downpours. "
If Kyogre/Groudon weren't stopped, their respective weather patterns were said to continually expand until the entire region/world is covered by severe weather.
 

Samochan

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If Kyogre/Groudon weren't stopped, their respective weather patterns were said to continually expand until the entire region/world is covered by severe weather.
Perhaps then, but when not in a rampage, I assume they have reasonable control over weather, as seen on emerald where you go look for those. The expansion cannot really happen in such short span as a battle tho and it's really unneccesary, besides the trainer may command them to stop. Affecting the area after a battle would be imo, idiotic, not to mention it wouldn't speak much of trainer's ability to tame his/her pokes. You'd have to battle other wild pokes/trainers in sunny day or rain. >_>
 

BSP

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OMG so many walls of text on the last page >_<.

Anyway, on the current matchup, I'd think that Lucas would win since his variety of PSI abilities would likely overcome anything Wolf has. Lucas can counter Wolf's lasers, so he would be hurting himself, while Lucas could just heal himself. A landmaster wouldn't do too much good either, since Lucas could just pelt it with PSI.

Unless Wolf has some secret weapon that I don't know about, he's toast.
 

_clinton

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
3,189
In regards to the current MU, Wolf doesn't have a landmaster canon wise unless he steals it or something.

Also Lucas already beat Falco yet you guys think he couldn't stop MK as well because of "reach" when that came along, WTF?

recovery moves restore purely the energy levels of pokemon, known otherwise as HP.
And two of those moves that restore HP, can clearly be shared with other pokemon in the field (at the cost of the users HP to bring HP to another), and I don't see why pokemon couldn't cure other things that aren't linked to HP. There are two or so moves out there (and info from the pokedex) that do it.

Because I doubt any of those healing moves actually have superior regenerative abilities. PT isn't going to grow back an arm/important organ.

Just to be on the same page... what's your definition of ****ed up stuff?
Um what makes you think they don't have superior regenerative abilities? You have several entries in the Pokedex and several other moves that hint at doing far more than just restoring HP.

I mean Ho-Oh brought back some pokemon that died in a fire in game right in front of you! It isn't in the dex as much as it is right in front of you, and several other pokemon have other healing skills as well that somehow restore life to dead things (not as big as Ho-Oh's display, but still nice).
And yet, they could beat the Krazoas and their armies pretty **** easily. I still can't see how gods that could be defeated so easily by what is pretty much equal in function to wyverns and horses could be considered incredibly powerfull.
Again what you don’t understand is that the Krazoa were not defeated by the “SharpClaw.” They left the temple of their own free will when Scales brought Andross indirectly with him.

Also btw Andross is very well hinted at being the cause of destroying Krystal’s planet as far as the canon goes (you have to love how they don’t even pay attention to Krystal’s story ever sense SFA, even if it is the black sheep of the games you’d think they would put some more back story into this other than just saying Andross did this for more reason than “just cause”).
http://www.replacementdocs.com/download.php?view.2024
Feel free to look up Krystal’s data in the character section of that scan; she is there on that planet for more reasons than one.

Also you have to love how Krystal somehow notices the “being” attacking her (Andross) before she is captured at 8:01 or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-Z9g9MzYT8&feature=related

BTW as far as the story goes some more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyZ73wUvL08&feature=related
1:00-1:10 shows why Krystal is neat as far as potential power goes, the whole control over certain gods thing and being used as a vessel. No wonder she was needed to be trapped in order to be used as a tool.

God I really hate SFA.

Ashunera created life on a planet and, on top of that, can end it with only half of her power.
You know what is funny about this is that actually Ashunera is split only in personality as far as story goes, the “power” part of being split is never brought up as far as I can tell, it’s more like a “real” out of body split personality experience.

Anyway here is the info given to the group again about the goddess’ blessing that you get when you start to fight foes with Mantel because I know I’ll need it.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/file/932999/53574
Yune: I was hoping to avoid this until we reached Ashera... Actually, I hoped
not to have to do it at all... But she's left me with no choice. I will
give you the blessings of Yune, goddess of chaos and freedom. In their
natural state, the attacks of mortal creatures have no effect on divine
beings.

[a cutscene image with a dragon laguz, green lion laguz, and a swordswoman
with long, brown hair]

Yune: When Ashera set out to defeat me, she gathered her strongest warriors and
bestowed on them some of her power. This is called the Goddess's
Blessing... She empowered the dual swords of the beorc swordswoman, Altina.
The laguz warrior, Soan, and Dheginsea, the leader of the dragon tribe,
were also blessed.

Yune: I failed then... But this time will be different. I'll use Ashera's own
tricks, and I won't be defeated. Everyone... Take some time now to ready
yourselves. Beorc, be sure to equip your best weapons. I'll begin when
everyone's ready.
So she is doing what she said she wanted to do a bit before Sothe turned into a Whisper:
Skrimir: Hmph. They were strong...for beorc. Has the senate held back its elite
forces?

Sigrun: No, I knew a few of them by face. Some of these soldiers were new
recruits. I can't imagine how they could have fought against us so
fiercely.

???: Simple. They were protected by Ashera.

[Yune appears]

Yune: I sent a message to Micaiah about the impending attack, then returned
here as fast as I could. Ashera freed the petrified soldiers who would
pledge loyalty to her. By themselves, they weren't a threat to skin puppets
as strong as you, so she blessed their armor and weapons. Now they are
worthy to be her true disciples, and their power will be stronger as we get
closer to her. The battle will only get more difficult from here.

Sigrun: Their weapons and armor are blessed by the goddess herself?

Naesala: Is that similar to the Black Knight's armor, or Ike's sword Ragnell?

Yune: It's the same idea, yes. The Disciples' blessings were much weaker,
because there were a lot of them. Still, it makes them a lot more powerful
than they originally were. I'd like to bless you all with protection, too,
but I haven't been awake long enough to wield that kind of power. Sorry
about that.
So, how come Ike can only be hurt by weapons blessed by Yune again? According to the blessing there is a limit on what they can take and considering how the text I just showed from the game’s script shows that the characters of the game clearly fought foes with the weapons and armor from Ashera w/o a blessing of their own shows that there is a limit the blessing can protect/power up from.

The Krazoa are similar in the former, but on the latter, even together they have low fighting capabilities.
Why do you think “peace spirits” (that is what they are called) not fighting is a sign of being weak? If anything they are pacifists to an extreme, they aren’t like a certain ½ of a god who just wants to destroy everything because her kids aren’t getting along and decides that they should die and she should start over again because she is a *****.

Boy it is funny that Ashera is saying she can’t overcome Yune and Yune can’t overcome her yet she is sort of overcoming her by destroying the world when Yune doesn’t want her to, WTF?

Very well, Andross did give them new weapons.
As long as that is clear, although do note that Scales wasn’t aware of what was using him, which makes it better.

And even then, Fox using what basicaly amounts to a basic fire-element Fire Emblem spell riding on top of a pterodactyl could bring down THE most heavily armed place in the entire Planet singlehandheldly with dozens of turrets and ships. Alone.
Right, so now you are underestimating the staff because it doesn’t have anything super flashy and over the top? You are just avoiding the fact that it can allow flight for a certain amount of time, open portals sealed by magic, cause enough force in a ground pound to knock over a T-rex and kill them, oh and you avoided the fact that the “basic” fire spell it is using comes in a rapid fire blaster form that is super easy on the game’s MP stat. The staff can also unleash normal magic blasts up close in general w/o any effort on the magic stat and then smack someone with them.

I mean the staff is also being used to absorb power from the planet’s energy as you play the game as well (so how come Krystal’s staff is able to interact with magic on the planet is a nice question to ask IMO? Of course I have some theories on it but whatever).

Plus by that point in the game the staff was really at its best as well as far as potential magic upgrades go.

And then you realize that, in Fire Emblem, we get guys with even more powers than Fox and the Krazoa. Every mage can easily summon meteors, freeze the air around the opponent instantly, shoot lighting, create black holes, make a gigantic explosion out of nowhere and make the floor literaly turn into lava.
So, I like how when you can’t tell how that is over the top and totally not realistic at all.

So when the floor is turned into lava again how come you can still walk on the place that you were fighting on, and how come the meteor that you summon doesn’t just blast a hole in the areas you are fighting in if you are in a building? **** the area in general being safe says WTF, at least in games like Mother they explain that using things like starstorm are if used wrong could **** the user, so with the things that are over the top with them are explained that they don’t just flat out destroy the area because the psychic has so much control over using them that it won’t turn on them because of their skill.

However, for my favorite example of things being over the top and stupid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye0dJhSH_LU
So why did Sephiroth not just use that instead of summoning meteor again if he wanted to cause the planet enough harm so he could become a god?

Zzz, on that not I wonder what SFA’s would make the magic look like if it was an RPG?

Of course I’m also pretty sure that when you say that FE characters have more power than Fox or such I’m pretty sure you only mean “magic” right? Just checking, because just because SFAs doesn’t do what the SF series does best doesn’t mean that the other series don’t have more impressive powers (you have to love how Krystal prefers a blaster to her staff that is powered with energy from a planet that was holding gods on it, but in case you forgot I’ve already said that the technology on the Star Fox universe has expanded to the point beyond what “god” could do, sort of like how the Chozo are as well).

Sure, beating a god is not even that impressive nowadays, but then you realize this little bit of info: what I have been saying. Most of those gods are pathetic.
Or maybe the guys doing the killing of them are just ****** enough? Ever think of that?

Roy? Said god, while powerfull, had a serious case of "HOLY **** THIS WEAPON KILLS THE **** OUT OF ME".
You act like Roy did the damage alone and wasn’t with a group (of course I wonder if you are forgetting that Ike was in a group as well?)

Anyway, said weapon is the most powerful out of a bunch of weapons that could if used wrong cause world ****ing damage according to the back canon, so yeah you really shouldn’t think the “weapon” is weak itself.

But face Marth against anyone who has a ranged attack and things go back to normal.
Marth’s game in that remake sounds like it is only the 1st one actually, but whatever I’ve never taken the time to play Marth’s games.

Which clearly shows a poor grasp of the language. But language is just the tip of the ice berg.
How do they have a poor grasp of the language, did you not notice that every dinosaur type on that planet speaks in different tones and such for the most part?

**** man ever look at how many issues there are with language and how it is translated in general, and did you not notice that Fox happens to be using a translator?

If anything they just have a “different version with a different tone” of the Dino language that they speak, I mean all languages have that.

So incompetent in fact, that they went extinct a few years after the end of adventures.
I like how you are underestimating a threat that is sort of like Phazon destroying their planet, and it isn’t like all of them went away, after all Tricky was around still.

The only thing that saved their ***** being the fact that the local fauna was not prepared to deal with turrets and the like. After all, they were stuck in the age of "ramming against opponent", and they did not have the ranged attacks to deal with the new technology.
Funny, they are using the same stuff that is on Ike’s world for the most part, ever notice that?
“Body” as a weapon, or very basic **** like clubs and axes and the like as weapons, magic in general as well.

Of course part of the reason for why I hate SFA is that if it would have been just a real Star Fox game Fox would have just wiped up the bulk of issues in that place in like one or two levels instead of a foe game in case you can’t tell that.

Also, to elaborate on why I believe why being a psychic =! being a god:
I don’t think just being a psychic = being a god, I think having being super high powered psychokinesis = something of a god power, there is a clear difference.

Andross in case you couldn’t tell had powerful telekinetic psychic. I don’t think he was a god, but I just think that with him making life, and such with his power like the Chozo made him a super huge threat, and then in SFA where he uses a median (Krystal) who could channel the power of the Krazoa and then he absorbed them because of it made him a larger threat (and holding on to the spirits as well is another thing).

Of course the background information that the game gives you about him from a cheat token also says otherwise in regards to the “threat” he can give.

The answer to that: it varies between universes. In Pokemon, being a psychic only establishes which attack types you are weak against and which attacks you use deal more damage. It may perphaps give you a nifty in-pokedex-only ability but that's it.
So I wonder me noticing that the bulk of legendaries being part psychic or pure psychic is for no reason at all?
11 total IIRC, I’m pretty sure that number beats all of the other types.

Of course on the list of abilities they have is impressive as well according to the pokedex, how about that? What with things like being the cause of human traits, being a genesis pokemon, a being that mutates, and so on.

Of course I still am on the list of people who thinks the type chart doesn’t explain everything that well and some of the stuff is clearly just there for balance (I mean steel and dark were made to balance psychic you know)

Shoot beams out of his fingers, try to eat Fox, hit him with his giant ape hands, shoot bigger laser beams out of his head and....that's pretty much it. Hell, most of his techniques were used by other enemies in the series.

The only other techniques that show an even remotely awesome level of psychic power being his teleportation and separating his spirit from his body.
So I like how you didn’t even look at the other **** he was doing throughout the lylat system in general for the 1st time he was around. He is seen as the series main villain still even after games like SFC for the DS just in what happened after his “death.”

Why the hell must psychics have their powers be explained with the rules of the real world when other, similar abilities are simply handwaved as simply videogame nonsense?
I like how you thought to bring up the definition of psychic but you didn’t look at the many abilities that go into that thing: telepathy, telekinesis, and things like that, so why’d you forget them when the games that use psychic powers and give a name to what the psychic power is are clearly referencing those ideas for how the powers work from what we would understand in that name’s meaning?

And now, having gotten this out of the way, why would the "almighty" Krazoa need to hide from a being such as Andross if he really is nothing special?
Maybe because he is “something special.”

The game’s back story sort of says he is, I mean possibly still destroying planets from beyond the grave says something IMO.

And again, with that out of the way, holy ****, Fox's lasers couldn't damage Andross and he needed to attack his weakpoint! FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!
Yet even attacking special parts of his body that killed him in the past before was not enough to stop him this time, ever play SF64? There is a clear difference between him in that form and SFA.

And finally, as I said up there, Fox managed to beat Andross' technology with Magic.
No he didn’t, he shot him down in an Arwing for the final fight.

If I had to say so myself, anyone from the Fire Emblem universe could do the very same thing fox did in Dinosaur planet.
Yes, Fox wasn’t getting support from his team on the outside in anyway.

No, it just seems to me like the Krazoa really are just pathetic and that this game has a buttload of plotholes induced by the sudden change from Dinosaur Planet to Star Fox. Like how that "dumb" General Scales you keep mentioning managed to control said spirits even though he is clearly evil and not strong.
He didn’t control the spirits as I’ve said already, just making sure that Krystal still gets the credit and how he was controlling her.

Besides, shoving a confused and distracted Krystal into a....crystal doesn't seem much if you ask me. All he did in the game was nothing. Nothing at all.
So, did you change your mind right here about Andross’ role with helping the SharpClaw tribe out power the other races w/o even trying or how his back story for that game leads Krystal to that planet in the 1st place?

Exactly, but they did not know what he really was. Their reaction seemed exactly like the reaction a middle ages peasant would have if he saw me playing videogames.
So, would you seeing a distorted spirit would have you react “right” as well, still the point that they noticed that he was clearly a foe was clear to them and not to Scales.

Plus it’s not like the game doesn’t give you any info on him that shows how powerful he is in general, a certain cheat token that you get in the game shows just what he is as far as power goes. He is clearly labeled as a more than world size threat according to the game’s back story from that background info for the game.

The fact that he is like the way he is clearly shows how he could screw everything up. I mean he has been the main cause of “stress” in four of the games in some way (SF, SF64, SFAd, SFC).

Of course two of those aren’t canon anymore, but still if SFC would have been good than I could easily say he was a threat for ¾ of the canon games (instead of 2/3 ^_^).

Also, the questions: Critical moments requie critical thinking. She was going to fight a powerfull army that was supported by her counterpart. Emphasis on counterpart.
So Ashera having things like the Black Knight and the Dragon King on her side wasn’t enough of a plus for her? She clearly made some bad choices for taking out her foe that went against her own role really, then she wouldn’t even just give another chance because she still thought she was in the right to destroy the world even though she was clearly saying “**** the rules to her own rules.”

Yune doesn’t revive your units if they die from what I see; it’s sort of bad when chaos does a better job at order’s rules than order does!

But whatever, the game did sort of hint at the fact that the god didn’t really have “perfect” control over her powers anyway (being a “child god” sucks when you flood the world).

Muslims, jews and christians all believe in the same god. Doe sthat mean that they are equal? Of course not.
Oh boy, I’m not touching this one.

The starchildren can create planets but you are omiting details. These childs can only mostly become planets and aside from that they are pretty much powerless. I guess they could become gigantic black holes and destroy the whole universe, but then that takes millions of these childs.
Again, I haven’t been talking about the “Star Children” in SMG, I’ve been talking about the main characters of the Mario games.

Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, Wario, some form of DK, and some Yoshi (IMO the one that is the main character in the 1st place for the YI games) are all star children of great power actually according to YIDS.

The stuff Bowser has done affected the Universe in SMG.

And the guy who destroyed the universe, well, the Chaos Heart and the void created by it actually did all the handiwork.
The pure hearts found Mario and the other characters as matches to their power actually, and the Chaos Heart is actually linked to Luigi as well according to the game.

Yeah, you could argue that those are half-controlled by computers, but what is telling us that the Captain doesn't use similar systems to those? Hell, did you even know that it is perfectly feasible for humans to control supersonic aircraft with little issues?
So, flying is the same as driving or what?
I mean the “tracts” don’t seem that way, what with how there is far more risk to what they are doing as well, do you think “anyone” could handle that?

“Oh wait,” I guess you are right, humans who aren’t able to handle the machines can somehow if they want to:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Clash

However, there are still plenty of others out there that don’t have machines built into them (“future nanomachines” *****es) to help them drive in it though.

Please look at some of the characters for the F-Zero canon, because some of them can clearly handle the machines because they are super human in some ways:
http://www.allgame.com/character.php?id=3138
Black shadow the series main foe for more than just one of the canons is a fun immortal warrior who is a master of black magic and hates Captain Falcon enough to do things such as make clones of Falcon in order to **** with him in several ways:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Falcon

Hell the only reason he enters races is to try and destroy Falcon, but still. Black Shadow does answer to Deathborn, who was the creator’s best creation before Falcon beat him. Deathborn only died like three times I might add and came back those times before Falcon showed that he was better than him, oh and he could teleport at will and teleport others as well due to a device in his body.
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Deathborn

Of course there are more than a few super villains in the series:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Zoda
This guy has “nanomachines” in him and hates Falcon as well.

Captain Falcon isn’t the only super hero around in the canon, you have a few super heroes such as this one:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Arrow

Going on as far as other characters go, you have your things such as telepathic psychics that are like the size of little children (oh and there are more than just these guys, Black Shadow also seems to have some psychic powers of some sort):
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Dai_San_Gen

You have the undead brought to you by more black magic of some sort:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/The_Skull

There are still things like androids:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._EAD

You have clear proof that being a cyborg gives you an advantage in this race, even though Falcon is still better:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Mighty_Gazelle

You have someone who was raised in the wild and have supernatural instincts:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Baba

You have dinosaurs with human level intelligence and altered physical strength:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Bio_Rex

Also, you have someone who is making sure the past and the future are safe and was able to make a time machine:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenix

You have a junk robot that was repaired by Phoenix, equipped with a possible ability to travel through time, and scanned info on Falcon’s ability and is using it in the races:
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/QQQ

Oh and finally you even have a Star Fox parody in the series, he even has a young son (oh and the parody goes further than that with something in SFC, but whatever):
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/James_McCloud
Of course there may be “more:”
http://fzero.wikia.com/wiki/Leon

So, how is Falcon beating all of these guys in that canon were they show up together again in this death sport if he is a normal human? (Who somehow happens to be hated by a bunch of characters who have psychic powers, and are super human because of various other things, funny).

That whole Dark/Light BS was made up by the bad guys of the game.
The bad guys of the game are the “gods” of that world in case you didn’t notice that (nice to know there are ****ing **** gods in a game instead of always having the “kind ones”). Plus they are like some of the only characters in this thread being talked about that haven’t left “god power” just under the bed or something (that is what they mean by the belt being fake, the stuff is still around).

Oh and who cares if the power Falcon was collecting wasn’t real, he was still the champion of light according to that canon where as the other guy (who btw the gods were going to make Falcon into if he lost that race) was the champ of the dark world.

Plus GX is only one canon for the F-Zero series (notice in my post that I was talking about more than one canon), for one of the canon like for example in the anime Falcon being the champion of light actually means something more, but whatever.

And about Samus, well, she is an incredibly powerfull weapon but she is still far from being a Galaxy-level threat.
I disagree, she may not be packing world destroying power under her belt, but she certainly is capable of genocide in a very short time to several worlds if she want to, Metroid 2 says hi for an example.

These two plagues are very, very powerful. Too bad the hero got inmunity to the exact same thing that made those dangerous.
Yes, that would be Metroids in one very special case that is a bigger threat or something else Chozo related still helps Samus (like how they were able to contain the stuff and hunt down the stuff in the 3rd game), notice that stuff?

Also please don’t forgot the fact that Samus wasn’t the only one packing Phazon fighting stuff in MP3, three others had the same advantage she had in a way (except waking up sooner, because that had something to do with their deaths).

Of course humans in general have been seen to have a better resistance to Phazon than some other races, can’t say the same about the X, but maybe there is something there for why humans seem to be the only ones really who make it out alive with Phazon stuff.

Ike's canon (and even gameplay seeing you can't have him die without getting a game over) clearly dictates that he won nearly every single fight he participated in.
So, what does this have to do with the fact that I was saying Ike isn’t a one man army (or having another guy with them or so) again unlike several of the characters in this thread by comparison?

Sonic falling off a cliff or getting touched when he doesn’t have any rings causes him to die, but it clearly doesn’t happen with him either. Ness and his team losing all their HP clearly doesn’t happen as well for canon, even though there are hints at them clearly having to fight hard.

And the fact remains that, no, he does not have control over the Chaos Emeralds. Perphaps just a little bit but that's it. He is no Shadow.
So why do you have to have Shadow’s back story to use the chaos emeralds again when you have stuff like Knuckles using both the emerald’s power and the master emerald which controls them? What is so hard about a natural control over them when the game’s canon has shown time and time again that Sonic is the “chosen one” for his canon (StH3&K has a picture of him fighting Eggman at D-Day Zone, and SA has him fighting perfect Chaos), all Shadow’s canon really shows is that it is possible to make something that could use them IMO.

Oh and saying Sonic has only a little bit of control over the emeralds is funny, because he’s the one who usually uses the power to turn super the most, I wonder why?

Very well, it does tire her out. But then there is the fact that blessing so many weapons and armour at once would obviously be tiresome.
Already talked about this in depth a bit, but just to remind you; please remember that the more they bless the weaker the blessing gets, which shows limits on even the strongest blessings, which should say that someone should be able to **** Ike if they hit hard enough on his armor/skin and such.

Stronger things get a stronger blessing as well as you could see from the 1st time Yune brings up the blessing and how your characters were commenting on how come weak characters were able to put up a fight.

And hell, he blesses more weapons at only one time than any video game gods I can think off at the moment. Most of them just bless two or three weapons at one given time and then never do that again.
Such as?

The only beings that come close to Ashera and Yune are the triforce goddesses which are basicaly three parts of a higher being, just like how Yune and Ashera are parts of a higher being.
Actually the three gods are separate beings with different powers in general, Ashera and Yune are only divided from the sounds of it by “what they’ll use the powers on and what for” in that they would have to agree on something or they’ll fight, and that seems to turn out well.

Of course unlike Ike’s god, the Zelda gods actually give hints at proof for them making more than one world at least, but then again like I said earlier. Ike’s god was a child god in “more than shape” (flood).

And I don’t see at least a certain bunch of various characters in the Mother games don’t come close to Ashera and Yune, but whatever.

Basicaly: Gods are much more powerfull and big than humans, which means that their mistakes are just as big.
Which still shows flaws of other types, but I don’t have to say how clear that is, Ashera brings back the dead and then says that her creations are out of order to justify her actions!

When Yune blessed him, he obviously did something to his body to make him feel lighter and better than before. If that is not a clear case of body blessing, I don't know what it is.
And his body being blessed still doesn’t matter as much as a sword/armor being blessed, which is a point I’ve been making. Personally I think that Ike is just physically put at the peak of “perfection” as far as “normal humans” go after that power up blessing. It still wouldn’t protect that much from a bullet going into his head IMO.

They did. The blessing scene? That was the way the game tells us that everyone has said blessing. It was pretty clear.
This was talked about at the start of the post with you again. The fact that those with the blessing can be taken out by those without it in the game is more than enough proof to show that Ike’s blessing is being BSed with a lot, but whatever.

Besides, ther eis something that those guys with mantle have in commons: all of them were alive to see the war to seal Yune (Ashera, Dehginsea and Sephiran) . Make of that as you will.
Pretty sure the fact that Altina no longer being around and that one of the two other guys just naturally has a long life span canon wise says no to that idea of them being immortal. Sephiran was living with the dragons for a while, don’t know if that has anything to do with it or why his story sucks (in the “sad” sense, not the “suck” as in poor, chances are he outlives his kids for starters, because it is clear he outlives his wife because he is at “betting” point with a god), but whatever. Of course because two certain swords are still around and not their owner Altina only proves my point some more on the idea that blessing stronger things.

No matter how easy or hard it would have been to get it back, the fact remains that the armour was not recovered by Zelgius.
It doesn’t matter that the armor wasn’t recovered by Zelgius, I only care about the armor. The fact remains that the castle was searched by a source that you could trust in Ike’s case, I’m sure that a part of the good guy side is a trustable source.

And you are mixing both canons to support your argument now.
Oh I’m sorry, what do both versions say then? I only know what ½ of the original story says because I don’t have access to the “report” from that version easily.

In the japanese version it was simply trapped beneath the rubble
You’d think they would want to recover that armor if it was what the game says it was and you are saying it is fine, but trapped? It’s not like they didn’t have ways of moving it out of there according to the game, after all you said earlier that they can do some ****ed up **** with their magic at the least right?

You can only choose one. And the *** version IMO holds more strength.
And the 2nd part of that story you are telling me makes no sense from my view, how about showing it if you don’t mind?

Which would work if I was trying to point out that someone beat him with a blessing still (and why didn’t he have one again after that for that final area?), but my point is that something screwed his armor over.
And that something that screwed his armor over is bad both ways for your argument of saying Ike is bullet proof + because either way the stuff that beat the armor doesn’t sound like a “god thing.” One sounds like the castle falling in on it does, and the other sounds like time or something beat it anyway somehow (time?) if the armor lived from what I see.

But, technically going off the game’s background anyway says that he chances are was blessed again for the final anyway because for some reason Ashera is able to bless people a lot easier than Yune was despite the fact that they were both just woken up as far as “seen excuse” goes.

Of course I already have posted the fact that the game shows power levels as far as blessings go.

Because said creations were being supported by the other half of said goddess and were by that definition just as strong as her army and herself?
So you just proved my point on why she wasn’t able to destroy her creations. Something ****ed up came around and stopped her (herself pretty much, because she is Smeagol minus the fact that there are actually two of her or something like I’ve also said already).

And you just gave them a limit.
And you seem to think that them having a limit based off what they are giving their power to is a bad thing? Last I checked they aren’t alive in the 1st place (who knows now though with what is going on in the Sonic canon), they are a 100% a tool. They aren’t a god, they are just an item that is around for some reason.

They’ve been used as an unlimited fuel source every now and then with certain things in the Sonic canon (Tails’ tornado 2).

And then there is one issue that basicaly says "**** you" to that unlimited energy bull****. Sonic Unleashed. In the beginning of the game the Chaos Emerals were drained of their power and then were shattered. How can objects as with unlimited potential be defeated like that?
They’ve been drained of their power more than once actually such as in Sonic Adventure in the 1st place, they find a way really fast to recharge them such as loading them off with a different energy source type than what the foe is using (Chaos used negative feelings to power them so he could use them, well guess what Sonic and his little freedom fighters use?)

Of course I haven’t played Sonic Unleashed so I really don’t know how they get restored in time for the big thing there. Just so you know, I’m not ok with really any cheap motion of just saying a character can take anything, so don’t think I only have issues with Ike’s blessing.

(when in truth, I’ve complained about every form of invulnerability type in this thread that is really just a stupid way to give cheap wins IMO, because there is no way every canon is the same as the one supplying the stupid ****ing invulnerability trick as far as “name” goes! Plus dark age setting stuff is by far more likely to use that BS as well, because for some reason a realistic dark age setting isn’t used in stories much due to the “suck” the times had I guess, plus its easier to “lie about” but whatever)

If anything, I would say that the Emeralds are just overrated.
Well they aren’t the only things that are IMO:

-Ganondorf’s stuff
-Starmen/Red Essence/Mega Star/Rainbow Star/Metal Cap/WHATEVER ELSE I’m missing from Mario off the top of my head that offer invulnerability (oh wait the star rod’s stat boost, and it is from a game that is making fun of the series in a way, yet whatever, people still take it serious)
-Some other Mario items like stop watch and what it exactly it does
-All of the other Zelda invulnerability stuff like Magic Armor
-Speed Booster’s 2nd side effect that is only mentioned one time and isn’t supported by anything else even game play for the Metroid it is brought up in anyway
-Ike’s blessing
(**** anything about “god” really IMO, but that is another thing, pretty sure I’m missing some items on this list I’m trying to make)

While the Krazoa abandoning the planet would just result in it being fragmented, which would still takea long time to fully destroy it.
Dude, when General Scales removed the spell stones and the Krazoa left the place because of being woken up for the 1st time in several 100,000 years or something like that, the planet started to die right away. Krystal comes in the story just right after Scales got done leaving the palace and you could already tell that the planet lost 4 huge chunks of land! (and then some)

If they left fully, nothing would be left to hold that dark matter back from breaking up that planet and then doing what General Pepper and others didn’t want it to do. Have a bunch of rocks wildly flying around the Lylat System and potentially destroying other planets in the area. I’m also pretty sure the life on those rocks would also find themselves floating in space because of there being a lack of gravity to hold them on the planet just for the heck of it (Scales really is a dumb**** based off this info).
 

PowerBomb

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Samochan said:
Perhaps then, but when not in a rampage, I assume they have reasonable control over weather, as seen on emerald where you go look for those. The expansion cannot really happen in such short span as a battle tho and it's really unneccesary, besides the trainer may command them to stop. Affecting the area after a battle would be imo, idiotic, not to mention it wouldn't speak much of trainer's ability to tame his/her pokes. You'd have to battle other wild pokes/trainers in sunny day or rain. >_>
That seems reasonable.

_clinton said:
Um what makes you think they don't have superior regenerative abilities? You have several entries in the Pokedex and several other moves that hint at doing far more than just restoring HP.
What?
I mean Ho-Oh brought back some pokemon that died in a fire in game right in front of you! It isn't in the dex as much as it is right in front of you, and several other pokemon have other healing skills as well that somehow restore life to dead things (not as big as Ho-Oh's display, but still nice).
I know Ho-Oh did. Give me an example of something else. And don't type a huge reply, I don't enjoy reading through huge replies.
 

Diddy Kong

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So, here is a question for you. Where in Ike’s canon does he fight anything that can smack him at the speed of sound?
He doesn't.

What makes you think Yoshi can’t use ice melons? Ever play the 1st YI for the SNES? The game does a good job showing that Yoshi can store his items like Mario can with his power ups.
Where? In his eggs?

Also what makes you think Pikachu has the range advantage? Or that a single Pikachu has control over lightning when he according to the pokedex only has electrical pouches on his cheeks (oh and that a group is needed to use lightning storms, don’t forget that).
Cause Pikachu can still use high leveled electric attacks. <_< And no mather how hard you try you can't pass that of as game mechanics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFQZ49KzflM&feature=related
1:23-5:27 is where you see Bowser get begged to help move an island. He’d do it w/o any issue if it wasn’t for the fact that his body was ****ed over at the start of the game.
And with help from Mario & Luigi in his arm muscle. But still, yeah that's pretty **** strong. Kinda forgot about that one as it's in the beginning of Bowser's Inside Story.

Also, I like how you are saying w/o something like the star rod Bowser would lose, so where would Ike be w/o that overrated blessing again?
Around the same level as Link perhaps. Who shouldn't end up too low either.

It’s not like Bowser is only able to fight physically, the guy has black magic with enough power to cause earthquakes (MRPG), summon lightning (PM), cover himself in rocks with control over his the earth (SMG), could transform foes to the point where they become helpless if given a chance (SMB, SMB3, MW with age regression), just won’t die (NSMB) even when clearly only bones left, and I could go on with this list but I think I’ve proven my point that Bowser>Ike with their natural powers. I mean what would stop Bowser from turning Ike into a mouse, or make him have to wear diapers again or such with his magic? Ike isn’t that great at dealing with magic as far as things that can kill him in his canon you know.
You have proof of Bowser being able to turn Ike into a baby? Or a mouse?

Oh and how come you aren’t impressed by Bowser in BIS?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWn-UUyOV_w&feature=related
I think he could put up a fight pretty well if he gets to fight at 100% “natural” power, but still lacking in some of the other stuff he can do.
Never knew you could fight Bowser again. That's pretty awesome I must admit. I never came farther than the 6th boss or so, so I didn't knew.

Makes me hate how limited Bowser is when you actually play as him. <_< In this game, game mechanis really don't make sence. As Bowser will end up physically weaker than Mario, and having less HP than Luigi.

Ah, maybe pawn isn’t the right word, I’m thinking bug. The only reason he is a threat at all to the normal world is because Din and those three other gods won’t just appear and smite his *** because they are too busy getting a show out of his behavior of making people suffer because of what a ****er he is, and because he is such a small threat in general, what with how he can’t have the full power of the triforce canon wise and how there are tools around that could **** him if someone can grab them.
Ganon is a demon. And yes, normally demons are lower in power than Gods, but he's packing God power still pretty much.

Ah no, 1st off the word manipulation is not what Ganondorf did in this case, I mean the power in case you forgot is neutral according to LttP it doesn’t care what you want, and was pretty much just waiting for the 1st person to show up and get it, that isn’t “manipulation.” 2nd off he mainly only got 1/3rd of that power from a god that is only 1/3rd of a “full god” of creation if put together. You are aware of course that Din didn’t make the world herself; she had help from two others.
Din didn't create the world no, but she did shaped/ created the earth as in... you know ground and stuff. And fire to, most likely.

Ganon still did gave Zant a lot more power than he had before. It all did happen, just play Twilight Princess. Are you gonna try to deny that to?

Um, it was actually according to the Japanese version, which is the official one. According to some other users here, the armor was left in the castle because of a failed warp and sense the armor isn’t found within less than 24 hours of a search according to the canon from the next game, from info who is an ally of Ike’s at that. The logical reason is that the castle being 100% destroyed naturally ended up destroying the blessed armor.
I said it before but... not in the English version of the game.

Then you should agree that it has a limit for what the blessing can take when it comes to punishment.
No I don't. I still believe that the Black Knight just warped out of the castle. It seems by far the most logical of everything.

Too bad Kirby’s abilities don’t make up for Mario having “better tools” like I said.
Oh and Mario is stronger maybe because he has been shown throwing “buildings” and “building sized foes” and so on and Kirby hasn’t?
I'm still passing that off as comical relief. Where else has Mario been able to throw such heavy weights as castles?

So, I like how you are thinking him dodging bullet bills and stuff is weak for some reason, btw in Sonic games bullets look pretty slow in that when you see foes fire them off, yet for some reason you aren’t just saying that the game isn’t being slowed down to help the player there.
No, I'm saying that Bullet Bills actually aren't that fast.

BTW am I the only one who notices the large chunks of land that are in the games, Mario crosses in very short amounts of time in all of these games?
So do other characters in platform games.

You mean like how she clears large chunks of land, moves just fine in water like it is land, and so on before that video? You really couldn’t get that she was impressive “physically” based off her 2D games before? **** I’ve already thought of her as better off physically than a good chunk of the thread just based off her in the Zero Suit.
She was always fast, but she never actually threw her enemies around or showed as much agility as she did in that video. You know what I mean. <_<

You mean in DKC with those bananas that are clearly in the ground because while the people where stealing DK’s bananas they dropped a ton of them and they got thrown on the ground and then buried because of the hectic weather and such according to the game in general?
How could the Kremlings burry those bananas in the first place? As they were actually trying to get away as fast as possible. DK just slams bananas out of the ground for no reason. He slaps them out of trees as well, also under snow or in caves. I say that says something about DK's strenght.

Hell they aren’t the only things buried in the ground, because there are items in that game that are buried hard enough on purpose to the point where you can’t just unearth them with a ground slap, you need a bit more force really.
Like Mario or Wario don't need a little help from an item or something sometimes. <_< Most things can still be pulled out of the ground by DK himself. Sometimes he just only needs to jump from something high to achieve it.

So what does that say about DK’s strength? Still think he is stronger than Mario, Wario, or Bowser when he can’t even unearth a steel barrel/Rambi Token in a pile of leaves and dirt at the start of the game and instead has to leap off a ****ing tree/other high grounds to build enough force from the landing?
Play DKC again please. DK can destroy the Rambi barrel by simply jumping on it, Diddy can do that to. And yes, I still think DK is stronger than Mario and Wario. Bowser is a different story.

Ah no, he isn’t “borrowing” tornado power for a spinning attack, he spins fast enough and hits hard enough to overpower tornado winds and use them as a tool in the less than one second Mario is spinning.
Again, you make it sound way more impressive than it actually is. What would you say about Barrel blasting from DKC or anything if you liked those games I always think.

Ike did it with more than a little help from Yune, he couldn’t kill her with even the blessing (which again proves my point on the blessing’s limit, it isn’t anywhere near “real god power”). Yune had to let Ike “become her” in order for Ike to have any help of beating her when it came to landing a killing blow that really didn’t even fully finish her off, it just allowed Yune to take control over her.
Ike could still damage Ashera without Yune.

For Pit did his by himself just naturally. Ike’s blessing by itself is in no ****ing way enough to out power someone that beat a being that beat a god w/o any help from said god in return.
Yeah, still Ike should beat him imo.

Oh and there are over three worlds in the FE canon, they aren’t on the same planet, Roy beats one of his world’s gods canon wise by using that sword and the weapons. Just by there being a god in Roy’s game sort of makes it clear Roy is in a different FE canon from Ike (even though they have a lot in common)
What God in FE6? The dark dragon maybe? I told you that before when argueing why Roy should beat ZZS. <_<

So, quick question: how does the trainer win any match based off just thinking “Samus can fire off a shot fast enough” before using any pokemon despite the fact that a trainer has been shown to be more than willing to let his pokemon travel with him in the 1st place outside of their balls such as in games like HG/SS/Yellow?

That sort of thinking pretty much should work with any character.
You got a point here.

Ness and Lucas have full powers of creation under their belts naturally and there isn’t any question of them using it or not if they want to (unlike with things like the trainer, Palkia and Dialga and so on don’t have to listen to him telling them to recreate the world if they don’t want to).
I don't think Ness has ever created anyhting except for his dream world. Lucas didn't recreate the world either, he just released the power of those Needles. And I don't think that it became Lucas' own power after the end either.

Zamus could beat Link or Roy is the key word, it’s a draw I see for the match. And fun fact I think Mario will beat Link and Roy as well.
In some scenario yes, ZSS would be able to beat Link and Roy yeah, but I think 80% of the time, Link or Roy would beat her, which would result in Link and Roy winning the match up.

-Mario has enough power to naturally **** up worlds and such if he wanted to (Bowser certainly has shown to do that and would win if that **** Mario or Luigi weren’t stopping him all the time, but guess who always beats him?), and 6 others in his canon lead up to have with him universe affecting powers.
How?

-Link may be chosen to use the ToC, but he still is a normal human by Zelda canon standards according to the games, he just has a ton of positive “normal human” values because that is why the ToC chose him in the 1st place in case you don’t get that.
Yet, Link is also pretty **** good with a sword already before he actually gets one. I just don't think Link is a average human. He most likely always was a bit stronger than the most average humans even before he started his adventure.

-Roy being a war hero/general for his continent is fine and dandy, but it’s not like he is ever called “above” human according to his canon as well. He is using a weapon that is part of a set of weapons that could cause world ****ing I’ll admit, but it’s not like he has been shown to be a pro with all of those weapons (or even be able to hold all of them), he just was “chosen” by the strongest of them (because the weapons have a soul as well).
Fire Emblem games always have this typical story of ancient heroes who fought the same sort of enemy before with the sacred weapons. The whole concept of Fire Emblem is that you chose who of the fighters you get to become the next of these heroes.

Roy uses swords, so logically he only gets the legendary swords. Note how he can still use Durandal even though it didn't pick him as it's owner?

Wait which Link do you think we are talking about? This thread clearly shows that the Link Zamus was fighting with was the TP Link as the thread went on.
But whatever, what makes you think Zamus couldn’t just outlast NL by knocking him down or avoiding him until NL wears off if it is just OoT Adult Link. Oh and I like how you think arrows would work on Zamus, you are aware that outside of the suit Samus is powerful enough and fast enough to still out maneuver a bunch of pirates with guns. More than just Zero Mission shows what Samus is like w/o a suit.
'Link' here is bascially TP Link and OoT Link combined. I don't fully agree with this either, as TP Link is much weaker than OoT Link. Or at least, OoT Link would beat him cause TP Link has no magic.

Simply said, no ZSS would just lose to Link.

Yes, because Ganondorf taking things like a blessed sword to the chest is so telling on how he could take a bomb that would blow up a good area that they would be fighting in at in general. Man, it’s so fun to know that you think he could always repair himself with that large amount of god power whenever various Links beat him with a normal sword in some games, totally compares to just someone beating foes that can move at the speed of sound like her.
Ganondorf never took damage from Link's bombs, why would Samus' missiles hurt him now then? Keeping realism out of this of coarse. Cause surely a real life missile would blow appart a real life guy in a armour.

So, why wouldn’t Samus’ anti-matter beam or such work on Ganondorf again? (talking about MP2)
Argue with others please. Ganon vs Samus is soon to come anyways.

Samus taking out things that can alter life is also funny when you think she can’t beat Ganondorf.
Ganondorf is simply different. Why? Play Zelda again.

Right, because he is so much better in that form, he hasn’t been beat by enough force at all in games like OoA/OoS.
Wasn't it noted that Ganon wasn't at full power in those games? Anyhow, I never fought Ganon in those games so I wouldn't know.

Various Links would win when it comes to that still, god several of them are powerful enough to beat him normally in the games already.
Someone like Yink just got stronger as his canon went on from OoT, must suck for Ganondorf to lose to a 10 year old that he made wet his pants and flee to the temple of time 2 years ago in OoT.
Yet Young Link never returned, thus the Wind Waker happend.

One must wonder why Ganondorf has never wished for anything more after getting that one wish in that game? Nice to know how he didn’t stop Link when he was ****ing up his world that he made nice and slowly.

Of course WW sort of gives some idea on that IMO, maybe you sort of are required to keep balance as you have the triforce otherwise the thing goes away. Plus the fact that Ganondorf got a hold of that thing after a ton of bloodshed according to the back story makes me think that he won on those that “opposed him” or something like that.
You go too deep into the game story. I don't know at what part of the game your talking about here now.

Mario and Luigi are just linked to Bowser from being star children as well, pretty sure that has something to do with beating Bowser than them “being normal.”
Why do you keep taking Yoshi's Island DS' canon like 'Star Childeren' for the reason why Mario and Luigi are.. like that?

I don't really mind cause DK is one of those 'Star Childeren' as well but I think it's a weak excuse.

What with how Bowser has been a universal threat as of SMG.
How again exactly?

Here are two examples to also prove you wrong some more:
SM64-Mario stole the power Bowser was using
SMG-Mario stole the power Bowser was using
Yeah but it isn't as deep as in Zelda.

Yes, that totally sounds realistic to what the pokedex says about the little rodent.
So as far as games that have never made it to America that are totally realistic, ever check out those games about Tingle? He totally saves the world in the 1st one from total destruction from a foe “totally about 90x worse than anything Ganondorf ever was able to do.”

(Well he saves the world at least anyway.)
Yeah, so what's the deal with Pikachu and Tingle then? You would deny their own games? I personally like the thought of these characters being able to do more than their main games suggest.

Um, maybe because Toon Link has never had any statement saying he can swing that sword at the speeds Samus can run at using the speed booster?
You know, I’ve only said that more than once, MK has speed of sound reaction time because he can work his sword at those speeds.
So what your basically saying is that you should imagine the Kirby vs Meta Knight fights in like... 1000 x the speed? Then yes, they need to beat Link and the likes. You have any proof of this? Cause so far I'm not sure what to believe. There are simply too many ways to look at it.

No, Kirby beating MK up close in sword play when MK has supersonic swordplay to brag about only shows how much this thread is underestimating Kirby just because he is like the size of a newborn baby.
Kirby would be even smaller right? But then why you think Mario is beating Kirby again if Kirby is so fast and strong?

MK can teleport, block in general at supersonic speeds, use a sword beam as a long range option, (if he didn’t have any issue at all getting close to Tink with just something like teleporting it would be helpful IMO), oh and the guy can fly.

He can heal as well, and is able to use various elemental attacks such as what is in this video, oh and MK shows some nice resistance to being frozen as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX3VMVdGGvE
What answer does Meta Knight have to the Light Arrows then?

Totally means Tink can fling them out as fast as MK can swing his sword huh?
If Meta Knight really is that fast, no then not.

But I leave this to others more knowlegdable about Kirby games and the likes.

Oh and a great spin is totally more potent than just out throwing fireballs, creating a lightning field, and so on.
Relevitely, those fire balls would be a lot smaller to Link. Who'd made be able to bounce it back with his shield attack from TP. The Great Spin is pretty **** powerful dude, thats why it only works when Link is on full health.

Yes, MK has totally not ever been in a war, so him commanding his own ship, dealing with powerful demons with his wonderful magic swords, must be worth beans huh?
When has Meta Knight fought in such a great war as the Fire Emblem characters did?

How, they are both using super powerful magic swords that can **** things out, only MK chances are swings his faster, flies, teleports, has elemental magic, and so on.

MK is so much more of a threat than the ship really.
I'd like to know now, who exactly do you think Meta Knight could beat, and who not?

Fox, Falco, and Wolf I think could bring it down if it was only ships that were fighting, too bad MK can bring them down and **** them just from teleporting/flying to them.
Fox or Falco has lost to Meta Knight before iirc.

Mario, Luigi, and such could fly to it. Some characters on the ground can knock it down.
I don't think Mario or Luigi would be able to beat Meta Knight to be honest. Or at least, not the Halberd.

Yeah, for “real world” ships, there is no way they would be as deadly to things like the Halberd, or the Arwings and such.
The Halberd is revived from the watery grave in KSS and flies in space even, and have you seen what the Arwings go through in the Star Fox games? I’m pretty sure the idea of “sun’s surface” is a bit worse than a tornado.
Well, I didn't know. Hmmm, yeah so Meta Knight wins now... Kinda makes the things I posted before defending Toon Link and Link pointless. >_>

Um, no I’m only against the game mechanic if it doesn’t make **** sense/clashes with game information and so on, ever look into that and how I’ve said that more than once?

Things like HP/health in general are game mechanics as well, notice how I’m not saying something like Ness/Lucas will never die or so on?
Then you wouldn't disagree that DK is basically immortal in DK: Jungle Beat no?

MK sure can’t heal to outlast any damage that he would take as he can’t harm Tink (not like he can’t just knock him down as he fights).
**** I don’t see why he couldn’t just avoid Tink as he spins in his hurricane spin then smack him up a bit as he recovers from it. Oh and in case you missed it, Ice arrows wouldn’t freeze him IMO due to that MK fight I just showed.
Yeah but Magic Armour still makes Toon Link invincible to damage. Thats why I think he should beat Meta Knight, without the Halberd.

How does it leave too much to your imagination when the game shows you several clear hints that their powers aren’t to be ****ed with, Lucas remakes everything at the end of Mother 3, Giygas is worshipped as a god in Mother 2 and Ness has the same powers as him and strikes fear into said being. BTW Giygas also destroys the universe according to the canon at some point; he also drags your team into a hell hole, and fun fact. The people Ness has touched in his game pray for him.
I personally don't think Lucas owns the power of the needles. Giygas isn't a god, he's more like the devil. Very powerful nonetheless.

You think Ness and Lucas don’t become a fighter/warrior?
Never said I didn't. But I'm more impressed by Samus' skill. Though, that mostly comes from Metroid: Other M, I admit.

Yet, Ness and Lucas could if they needed to, such as what Lucas did need to do.
I disagree here.

Oh yeah, because Ness and Lucas totally aren’t self trained as the game goes on, leveling up in their game makes sense for starters as well (how else do they get stronger as they go on man?), unlike in several of the Mario RPGs, pokemon, and some other things for this thread (so what part of Samus picking up things in her games make sense again in most of them?)
Why doesn't make Pokemon leveling up make sence, but Earthbound/Mother's do?

Yes, because psychokinesis at a god level totally isn’t an overpowered idea in many other forms of fiction besides EB (X-Men for starters).
I sitll don't agree with your vision.

Size matters to you? And the machine doesn’t ****ing matter when all you have to do to take out the Halberd would be to target certain areas of it.
Still doubt he can do it.

Oh and I’m pretty sure things like that small meteor shower that showed up when Lucas unlocked his power would take out the Halberd that is shown at the end of Mother 3, after all it certainly takes out those ships that transport the pork troops around just fine.

And I’m also certain that a meteor shower is a bit more dangerous than making a tornado or two, but go on and guess what the end game of Mother 3 flung out as well for a farewell party to the current world?
I don't think that power belonged to Lucas anyway. Or at least, that he can create meteor showers like that.

Oh and PK flash only sucks in Mother 3 because the Mother series has always had issues with balance in case you haven’t noticed that, Lucas mind ****ing you chances are would not be easy to blow off.
So you mean, PK Flash was actually good in EarthBound? Never noticed...

So, that totally follows the rules of this thread super well huh?
Yeah, like you follow rules?

Did you look at your old post before saying “told you before?” I was listing Wario’s flight options because you said Diddy could just stay out of Wario’s range. I mean saying Diddy’s “plane” isn’t enough of a hint that I’m talking about the Gyrocopter (just got the ammo mixed up in this case, oh and name because I was that lazy when I made the reply, sort of like now really) or the jet pack as a 2nd resort for Diddy trying to run from Wario?
Not to run away no, but to do damage from a range so that Wario can't counter attack.

Wario could just enter into a gun fight in the air with Diddy and his plane. Logically they both will end up on the ground in the end just because that is where Wario wants them!
Diddy would still have his barrel jetpack after the Gyrocopter gets destroyed. But yeah, most likely they'll both end up on the ground anyway.

Oh and saying Wario’s flight options weren’t impressive to you as a reason to forget about them is funny, because he has a bit more than “two of them” and with more weapons as well on them (such as himself).
Then what can Wario do with it? Diddy actually went on dangerous missions with the Gyrocopter and most likely has better handling than Wario with it. He also has bombs.

Please show me, because I’m sure that a psychotic alligator dressed like a pirate/mad scientist/whatever with a trigger happy finger bent on just beating an ape on his island/destroying the island except for that one game where DK and Diddy eat a ton of bananas at the end given to them from a bunch of banana people is so much better than the large number of world threat sized demons Wario has fought with while exploring various dimensions away from ours at the same time.
Yeah, good job on praising your favorite game up to heaven while hammering down on the other. Makes me wonder if you actually played DKC, Jungle Beat and Jungle Climber instead of watching videos. Besides, K.Rool was pretty much able to take over the universe in Jungle Climber with the power of the Crystal Bananas.

Yeah, DK64 is really the last DK game I take “seriously” besides maybe “JB” which doesn’t have Diddy in it anyway. King of Swing feels like a step back for K. Rool and what he did last time (try and destroy an ****ing Island), and Jungle Climber is about as serious as Tingle’s games with what is happening in it (unless you think “The Wizard of Oz” but with Tingle is totally serious).
I personally hated Jungle Beat cause it had no characters or gameplay related to DKC. Though, that could be said about lots of games on the GameCube (aka, people complaining about Mario Sunshine, Wind Waker and hell even Metroid Prime).

King of Swing is the least serious yeah. But still, DK shows feats of strenght like throwing rocks into mountains to create openings, Going Bananas, tossing around a gaint skeleton sea dragon, ect. I liked this game very much, especially after Jungle Beat.

Jungle Climber is actually more serious, cause K.Rool gets those Crystal Bananas which make him and his Kremlings giant, and super strong. Yeah sure it's not all that serious at all, but then again, so isn't Bowser's Inside Story for example. Doesn't mean the quality isn't good. Personally, I hope we get another game like this.

Well I was also saying Mario was super fast because he darts through large chunks of land in little to no time at all, but whatever.
Again, that's platform games.

Yes, because Wario who can clearly move fast enough to dart across water if need be is totally “slow on his feet.”
Does he do this naturally, without items or such?

Oh and bombs are a far greater threat to Diddy than Wario for how well he uses them, Wario also has ways of seeking cover from Diddy’s fire power for starters in case you forgot arty Wario form.
The guitar would likely still be effective here. Sure it wouldn't OHKO Wario, but still greatly damage him.

Oh and I like how you think a guy who gets smashed into a bouncy ball is going to get hurt by a sound wave from a monkey playing a guitar badly when that move doesn’t even take out any foe beyond the basic small to semi large grunt krocs. or wouldn’t be able to outlast going bananas when btw Wario is able to rebuild himself as far as the games have shown in more ways than his reaction skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLLGQU9CWx4&feature=related
5:30 or so, so what would happen to DK or Diddy if they got cut in half, just wondering?
That cutting him in half is more comic relief I think. Surely you don't really think that Wario would be able to survive that? If he can, he should be on top. Good luck with convincing everyone with that. =)

Yes, because JB shows DK being burnt to a crisp, or cut in half as far as durable or taking hits goes, or how about a risk of getting crushed? What happens if DK gets pinched between two chunks of land in the games?
Yes, DK gets hit by fire and lava even in Jungle Beat. And is able to shrug it off easily, same with ice which usually freezes him (for the effect mostly I think).

As for getting crushed, yes it is possible in the game for DK to get betwen two chunks of land (or ice iirc), but I don't know what happens to DK then. Most likely nothing much but having to do wall jumps over again and taking minimal damage. I don't own Jungle Beat anymore, so I wouldn't know.

Plus how is DK stronger, please show me how?
I think they'd be around the same strenght actually, but I think DK is just more skillful and faster therefore more dangerous. DK has shown to be extremely powerful as well, and you know it so I won't bother with who's actually stronger.

But especially in Jungle Beat you see how strong DK really is. In the fights between the other "Kongs" you see his skill in dodging, blocking and finding weak spots easily. As well as amazingly fast punch work. I don't think Wario has any specific fighting style, but DK has experience in fighting the styles of karate, 'ninja' and sumo wrestling.

Also, the Sound Wave attack in general shows great strenght on DK's behalf. Creating a **** huge shockwave of sound by just clapping your hands, when exactly has Wario done this? And constantly? The Soundwave attack is also ****ing strong, as it knocks around enemies even larger than DK and makes some enemies get hit by lightning. It also reflects fire, bombs and more. If you seriously doubt DK's strenght, how come he can still do all these things?

Take his skill, with his speed, power and equipment like he has in DK64 and I think personally DK should be able to beat Wario, or draw with him. Which is the most logical outcome really, a draw.

Still, I think DK should be able to win more often than Wario.

Please show me DK moving an island like I did with the older video with Bowser, or him moving large chunks of land just in general!
There's no such thing, DK never did that. Still, he would be able to do the exact same thing as Bowser if he was put in the situation I think. Replace Mario & Luigi in the arm muscle with Diddy Kong constantly feeding DK bananas and you'd have the same situation.

Yeah, and Wario doesn’t have his bull charge or a ton of other ****ing moves he has had in his canon in SM64DS as well, how about that? There are better games out there that do a better job at showing off his skills IMO than that one which is just trying to balance the characters in the 1st place (god you have to love how Mario lost the metal and ghost forms in the remake)
Implying Wario can even get around DK's Sound Wave attack? Unless Wario is sound proof somehow, DK can easily keep him at bay as long as he likes. And if it's allowed to 'merge' games again, he can throw orange grenades while he keeps Wario at range.

Now you come up with a scenario of Wario beating DK?

Oh and why not? He has been shown to store items as well if he needs to.
Well fine, have it your way. I want DK to have Strong Kong now, as it works similar. Both characters need to find a barrel / box to activate the power, therefore I say they both shouldn't have it. But yeah, DK still wins. :)

So what about the whole creating storms, and what fire and ice does DK resist? And that you think makes Diddy better than Wario still, even though K. Rool can clearly freeze Diddy just fine in DKC2’s fight.
Creating storms?

Anyway. DK resists lava, fire attacks (meteors even) and ice in Jungle Beat. There are specific levels of coarse, will look up for you if you want to. Theres even one level where DK is trapped between a giant snowball, and a giant monster (like, dinosaur to mouse, such a huge difference there in size, don't say it doesn't mather) where DK destroys the snowball with the Sound wave attack.

I'm thinking Diddy would still dodge mayority of Wario's moves yes, as shown by his incredible agility in DKC2. Yes, K.Rool can freeze Diddy, but iirc, it IS possible to break out of it, you just have to be lucky or real skilled. Then again, you can easily dodge most of K.Rool's attacks anyway.

Watch this again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E4EwmLR2A8 . Also, note how DK gets tortured pretty badly in the beginning please. Check around 2.40, Diddy breaks out of the ice pretty **** easily.

How is he going to hit him when he can’t see him? Are you saying he is just going to fire randomly? It wouldn’t be that hard to avoid that, Ice arrows have a ton of cool down time and start up time compared to normal arrows.
There's not too much start up time for the Ice Arrows... And how can't Toon Link see Snake? Cause of some cloaking device?

Plus I’m pretty sure he can’t use arrows like that while packing other magic anyway (or at least it is that way in OoT/MM, I haven’t played WW for a while).
True.

Of course it’s not like Snake isn’t bad *** enough and able to outlast him already normally, what with how he can handle ****loads of radiation, I’m pretty sure an ice arrow would:
A. Not freeze him that long
B. Have the arrow part not hurt him that much because of the armor he is packing
C. Snake can heal his body naturally because of all those wonderful machines in him, just letting you know.
Could be, I'm still not very knowlegdable about Metal Gear Solid and Snake. I'll leave this to others.

Personally I don’t know why he couldn’t just leave a playboy around for Tink to find, then get him when he is distracted by that stuff.
Only if Diddy can still make Wario implode. =)

I also don’t see how it would be that hard for Snake to disarm Tink, even if he can’t physically hurt him.
Toon Link still packs a lot of weapons. Like the Skull Hammer and such.

I still want to know why a rocket launcher is less impressive force wise than a sword or something that you think a rl wouldn’t phase through magic armor that just protects from damage just because of no reason, but whatever, the part where you said Kirby, Mario, and pokemon being unrealistic sort of needs to include Zelda on there as well.
Yes, Zelda also can be quite unrealistic. However, I found that Ganondorf died quite the realistic way in both OoT and TP (not so much WW, lolz @ turning into stone after getting a sword through your brain).

No damage is still no damage. Doesn't mather if you fire a rocket launcher or a nuke, Toon Link will only fall over from it. That's why this matchup is also quite difficult. Realism vs fantasy.

Right, the cloaking device, sniper rifle, gatling gun, rocket launcher that locks on to targets, jet pack, damage barriers, land mines making it unsafe around certain areas, grenades, and so on that Fox has as shown in SFA really makes him weak on foot.
Star Fox Adventures should've stayed Dinosaur Planet imo. <_< Still, it was a good game. Only Star Fox game I ever played. But yeah, normally that'd give Fox the advantage, but Ike you know... Still remains difficult.

Now that I'm further with the post, I realise that Ike's 'blessing' should be much the same like how the Black Knight was represented in Path of Ridiance. Seeing as Ashnard could still be hurt by things as Rexbolt, the Laguz Kings and Nasir (or Ena) I would argue that Ike still wouldn't be 100% invincible.

Of course another fun fact is that Snake has a ton of stuff like this as well (just not as sci-fi like). To name some stuff Sniper rifles, blasters (solar energy in fact for one of them), machine guns, shot guns, grenade launchers, night vision, thermal vision (so he should see foes if they can hide), mines, and so on. The list goes on.
So basically... Fox > Snake?

Whoa this post took some time... About 2 days or something I've took some few minutes here and there to make this. O.o

EDIT: Match up related; Ness beat Wolf before by using PK Flash. Lucas should be able to do the same. Scenario would be: PK Flash, Wolf has a status effect and cannot fly properly anymore and crashes.
 

Diddy Kong

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No basically we are discussing whatever the hell we like. :p The main discussion is still Wolf vs Lucas, but most of the time we're quickly through with that and move on to the characters we like. Unless of coarse it's something like Mario vs Sonic, which will even have longer walls of text I'm affraid.
 

dahighii

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Ah. Guess I'll just lurk til this one clears up, at least I'll be there for the beginning of the next one as opposed to needing 30 min of archives to read :)
 

Diddy Kong

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Just give your imputs on this match up, theres always someone to discuss with. Or just quote someone and say your vision about it. Jumping in is simple really.
 

PowerBomb

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These humongous towers of text remind me why I prefer to lurk this thread
Just because _clinton types down huge walls of text to try to get across some ambiguous point, and that people are actually responding to this with even more walls of text, which causes _clinton to reply with ever larger walls of text.
 
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