Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Crystanium]

I know Samus' do.

...What about Link though? The reason why so many characters survive and do such insane amounts of survivability and defense is because of their health systems/bars. When its gone, they become ordinary.

Mario's health meter, or whatever you want to call it, changed. In the NES, when Mario took a Mushroom, he'd become bigger. With that, or with the Fire Flower, Mario took two hits. We see a shift in this with Super Mario 64. I think if you went in water, his health would be restored. For Pit, you acquired four or five energy meters, I think. It was after you completed a dungeon, I believe. I could be wrong. I haven't played Kid Icarus for some time. But, I'm sure that if a bullet were to hit Pit directly in the head or in the heart, or whatever, it would kill him, so that health meter he had wouldn't mean anything. Bullets would be broken.

 

[PowerBomb]

Snake? SNAKE? SNAAAAAAKE.

Health systems cushion the body. It's them that make the bodies of various characters unable to be cut in half/severed. There's also censorship.

In reality, there are no health systems. Shielding, as with Master Chief from Halo, would be possible due to it being a machine that generates a shield.

 

[Lord Viper]

Kirby using the sword is the accepted storyline. The fact that you have a choice not to take it is just an option they threw in to make the game more enjoyable.

I don't see any way for Kirby to get around Meta speedblitzing him

☆ You have to base it out of every Kirby game that's not just Super Star only, Kirby & The Amazing Mirror or Kirby Squeak Squad anyone? In those games he doesn't give you an option to take a sword, or gives out a sword when fighting him, (well, Amazing Mirror was Dark Meta Knight, but you know where I'm getting). Only in Kirby Adventure/Nightmare in Dreamland you are forced to take the sword, and Kirby Super Star/Ultra you have an option to take it or not, though taking the sword will make the fight last longer if you don't have Hammer, Stone, Mirror, or Plasma. I'll give Meta Knight credit for having the most powerful sword in the galaxy, but over all, that's not going to beat Kirby since Kirby is able to use his most powerful abilities thanks to Copy Essences Deluxe, let's not forget Kirby's in his Air Ride machines, his Warp Star is enough, the ledgendary Air Ride machines would just be overkill, and his powers when Kirby defeat his strongest bosses, (Star Rod, Rainbow Sword, Heart Rod, Star Ship, etc). ☆

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

I know Samus' do.

...What about Link though? The reason why so many characters survive and do such insane amounts of survivability and defense is because of their health systems/bars. When its gone, they become ordinary.

This isn't like Joe's thread lol, this is if character's were true to their GAME.

 

[PowerBomb]

If they were true to their games to the very core mechanics...

So no using reality?

EDIT: If we do that, then... multiple things become possible and impossible.

 

[justaway12]

If they were true to their games to the very core mechanics...

So no using reality?

Well, yes, unless the situation call for it, like how strong is Link if he can raise a pillar, since people have to see how high it is and how strong it is and etc. they would have to use reality.

Spoiler

My explanations suck @_@

 

[Rohan]

yall are ********

 

[Uffe]

@ Uffe: Why should Mewtwo be so high? He's a strong pokemon, but there isn't anything really extraordinary about him.

I can't really say at this point. All I know is that he's a very strong Pokemon, but whatever, I could be wrong.

I disagree with this, and I think Samus is several spots too high. She should definitely be high, but not get her own tier right below Ganon.

Like I already said, Ganondorf should be in double S tier and Samus, Ness, Lucas and Mewtwo should all be in S tier. Triple S tier is ridiculous.

Also, we proved earlier that Link has super-sonic reaction time, even as a child who hasn't slept for at least three days

Dude! Get this through your head! He does not have supersonic reaction time! In what part of the game does he ever have this? Never. The only thing that's supersonic speed is the tip of a whip. Everything else is slower than that. Anybody can escape the tip of a whip, it doesn't mean they have supersonic reaction. You want supersonic reaction, chances are Captain Falcon would have that seeing he can get around 2000 km/h. The tip of the whip goes supersonic speed, not the whole whip.

☆ .... And people are not talking about Mario because? Mario has been there, done that, not to mention what powers he had in the RPG games like Paper Mario or Mario RPG. Did people forget Galaxy? Do you find it odd that a plumber is flying through planets and owning creatures that's in a lava? Why is he not A tier? ☆

Chances are we'd be sticking with Mario from one game just like we're doing with Samus, despite the fact it's the same Samus. And fighting a lava creature alone doesn't make you A tier instantly, though I do believe that Mario and Luigi should be that high. And if Wario is there, then should also be up there, because they're not just human. There is a reason it's called "Super" Mario Bros. Because they're basically superhuman.

1. Link did not have such a massive shield.
2. It's very easy to attack around, you have to move a shield to deflect on coming blows.

Link still doesn't have a massive shield. Samus could just grab his shield with her Grappling Beam and fire away.

Bullets are small. It's very easy to attack around a shield with a whip, especially a massive prehensile one, or /two/ simulteneously, like Majora's.

The difference between a bullet and a tip of a whip is how far it can go. If you're trying to run away from a professional sharpshooter, chances are you'll get hit.

He has. He defended himself, and beat Majora. Being unable to move your shield is a gameplay mechanic. You know, like only shooting straight forward in 2d games?

Whips = supersonic.
Defending = reacting.
Link did B in reference to A.

Whips don't go supersonic speed. Stop bringing that up! The tip of it does, not the whole whip! Having your shield up already isn't a sign of reaction, just common sense.

yall are ********

If you're going to talk, contribute instead of calling people names.

 

[justaway12]

Chances are we'd be sticking with Mario from one game just like we're doing with Samus, despite the fact it's the same Samus.

That is stupid >.>, for everything they have different games.

Maybe we should get the LoZ timeline from the LoZ thread, and use the TP timeline.


CREDIT TO SPHIRE III

 

[Uffe]

That is stupid >.>, for everything they have different games.

Maybe we should get the LoZ timeline from the LoZ thread, and use the TP timeline.

Exactly. Samus from the NES is the same Samus from Fusion. The only reason we stick with one is because I guess it's suppose to make things a fair fight. You can choose whichever Mario you want. But it's probably best you choose the best.

I think that the Oracle series should be placed elsewhere. Doesn't it say that Link's Awakening is AFTER A Link to the Past?

 

[justaway12]

Exactly. Samus from the NES is the same Samus from Fusion. The only reason we stick with one is because I guess it's suppose to make things a fair fight. You can choose whichever Mario you want. But it's probably best you choose the best.

I think that the Oracle series should be placed elsewhere. Doesn't it say that Link's Awakening is AFTER A Link to the Past?

It is the LoZ boards old one (as they haven't finished thier new one), but I just want to sort it out, and not base a character of one of their game when they have so much more, but I'm not sure about that Links awakining myself. I would think so.

 

[Supersun]

Ok, ONLY the tip of a whip moves at supersonic speeds. That doesn't mean the entire whip moves that fast though. There's a very big difference why a bullet is so much harder to dodge then a whip. It's because the bullet can come out at any given instance and travel at supersonic speeds from the get go. The whip on the other hand has the VERY tip of it reach supersonic speeds for a very brief moment. Keep in mind that the rest of the whip is NOT going that fast and to make ANY adjustments to where the tip ends up you have to manipulate the rest of the whip. So if you happen to move 5 feet to the side he has to manipulate the REST of the whip to maneuver the supersonic part to you. This is why you can't say that dodging a whip means you have super sonic reaction. Because you are simply trying to dodge a small part of a whip that moves supersonic and the whip wielder can only maneuver that area as fast as the rest of the whip allows him. Not only that if he wants to change directions of the whip he has to force another wave through the whip, and a wave traveling through the whip is not even near supersonic.(PS:Something can't accelerate at super sonic speeds)

Also...you put Ness and Lucas at the bottom of the list...wow good job, you pretty much put two characters that a lot of people debate that are about as strong as Mewtwo (in game) at the bottom >.>

 

[ph00tbag]

Technically, Link doesn't always dodge the whip, either. He just has a big **** off shield, and the whip kinda flaps uselessly against it.

Just saying.

Besides, everyone knows the best strat against Majora is to use the Zora's magic shield attack to tank through the whips.

 

[PowerBomb]

So Link doesn't have super-sonic reflexes?

 

[Supersun]

lol even if he did what good would it do him. His body sure can't move at super sonic speeds. Like someone said earlier. Captain Falcon probably DOES have reflexes of those speeds. Sure doesn't change the fact that he's like one of the slowest attacking characters in Brawl XD. His body just can't move that fast.

Also how about an alternate BS explanation, Link doesn't have supersonic reflexes but instead that's the speed majora moves under the song that slows down time. That would explain why you can see the tip of the whip even while it's moving at super sonic speeds. That would also explain why the crack of the whip is closer to Majora then it is to Link. Of course if this is true Majora would be scary as **** at normal speed.

 

[Uffe]

It is the LoZ boards old one (as they haven't finished thier new one), but I just want to sort it out, and not base a character of one of their game when they have so much more, but I'm not sure about that Links awakining myself. I would think so.

Yeah, I think ALttP is the last time Ganon(dorf) is ever around and Link killed him with his Silver Arrows. Plus the whole thing about having every part of the Triforce. I could be wrong about Link's Awakening, though. I just thought I read somewhere that Link goes out to sea, gets ship wrecked I guess and the rest of it is a dream.

So Link doesn't have super-sonic reflexes?

He never did to begin with.

Sure doesn't change the fact that he's like one of the slowest attacking characters in Brawl XD. His body just can't move that fast.

Smash isn't canon.

 

[Supersun]

Well it's about the only thing we have for Cpt Falcon as he only drices a race car in his games XD (besides, that was more of a joke)

 

[galekill]

I come back and three pages have passed, ****it. No breaks for me anymore

 

[Uffe]

Well it's about the only thing we have for Cpt Falcon as he only drices a race car in his games XD (besides, that was more of a joke)

Well in Story Mode, Black Shadow has some sort of ability. So most likely Falcon does have his move sets, though none of it ever shows. :S Well in the anime he has Falcon Punch and that blows things up and he

Spoiler

survives it, though people think he's dead. Than again it's not really canon since the first F-Zero began in 2560 and this F-Zero anime takes place in 2201, which would probably be the X era since Silver Neelson reveals that he's 97 years old.

 

[galekill]

...What about Link though? The reason why so many characters survive and do such insane amounts of survivability and defense is because of their health systems/bars. When its gone, they become ordinary.

here's why I've been pushing the idea of 'durability feats' Health meters are a gameplay mechanic and an abstract concept. Breaking your arm doesn't do 50 damage with no adverse affects.. It breaks your frikken arm!

Dude! Get this through your head! He does not have supersonic reaction time! In what part of the game does he ever have this? Never. The only thing that's supersonic speed is the tip of a whip. Everything else is slower than that. Anybody can escape the tip of a whip, it doesn't mean they have supersonic reaction. You want supersonic reaction, chances are Captain Falcon would have that seeing he can get around 2000 km/h. The tip of the whip goes supersonic speed, not the whole whip.

The tip, IE the attacking portion. Thus, the only part relevant.

Whips don't go supersonic speed. Stop bringing that up! The tip of it does, not the whole whip! Having your shield up already isn't a sign of reaction, just common sense.

A whip-crack, ie, the actual attack, does break the sound barrier, stop denying facts.

Technically, Link doesn't always dodge the whip, either. He just has a big **** off shield, and the whip kinda flaps uselessly against it.

Just saying.

Besides, everyone knows the best strat against Majora is to use the Zora's magic shield attack to tank through the whips.

Blocking is still reacting, you have to know where somethign is going to land to react.

And the best strat gameplay-wise, sure. This strat still involves blockign and we don't know 100% how the actual fight went down in canon. We do know the cutscenes show young Link, however.

Ok, ONLY the tip of a whip moves at supersonic speeds. That doesn't mean the entire whip moves that fast though. There's a very big difference why a bullet is so much harder to dodge then a whip. It's because the bullet can come out at any given instance and travel at supersonic speeds from the get go. The whip on the other hand has the VERY tip of it reach supersonic speeds for a very brief moment. Keep in mind that the rest of the whip is NOT going that fast and to make ANY adjustments to where the tip ends up you have to manipulate the rest of the whip. So if you happen to move 5 feet to the side he has to manipulate the REST of the whip to maneuver the supersonic part to you. This is why you can't say that dodging a whip means you have super sonic reaction. Because you are simply trying to dodge a small part of a whip that moves supersonic and the whip wielder can only maneuver that area as fast as the rest of the whip allows him. Not only that if he wants to change directions of the whip he has to force another wave through the whip, and a wave traveling through the whip is not even near supersonic.(PS:Something can't accelerate at super sonic speeds)

I disagree with this point because of how easy it is to simply tug the loop slightly differently, especially in the case of Majora's prehensile whips. The world record fro most whip cracks in one minute is 420, held by Adam Winrich, who is also in a vidoe I used to illustrate the ease of aim adjustment with a whip.

As the tip is the attacking portion, the fact that the handle does not move the same speed is a little irrelevant.


Edit: Captain Falcon has truly epic reflexes @.@

 

[missingnomaster]

Link can hold up a shield, therefore he has super sonic reaction time.

AMIRITE?

 

[killbeast301]

The tip, IE the attacking portion. Thus, the only part relevant.

If somebody shoots you the bullet is what goes through you, right? It's the attacking part of the gunshot, thus the only part relevant.

Suppose somebody points a gun at me, and I get out of the way before he pulls the trigger, does that mean I'm faster than a speeding bullet?

NO! It means I got out of the way before he shot me.

If somebody tries to whip you, you don't wait for the crack to get out of the way, you can move before he cracks it, before it gets to you, when it's going much slower.

Keep in mind that the rest of the whip is NOT going that fast and to make ANY adjustments to where the tip ends up you have to manipulate the rest of the whip. So if you happen to move 5 feet to the side he has to manipulate the REST of the whip to maneuver the supersonic part to you. This is why you can't say that dodging a whip means you have super sonic reaction. . . . Not only that if he wants to change directions of the whip he has to force another wave through the whip, and a wave traveling through the whip is not even near supersonic.(PS:Something can't accelerate at super sonic speeds)

 

[galekill]

If somebody shoots you the bullet is what goes through you, right? It's the attacking part of the gunshot, thus the only part relevant.

Suppose somebody points a gun at me, and I get out of the way before he pulls the trigger, does that mean I'm faster than a speeding bullet?

NO! It means I got out of the way before he shot me.

If somebody tries to whip you, you don't wait for the crack to get out of the way, you can move before he cracks it, before it gets to you, when it's going much slower.

As I've explained, dodging before the crack of a whip's a good way to get hit when the one with the whip simply re-agnles his attack to land where you are. The extension of a whip, unlike a gunshot, does not instantly telegraph where it's going to land.

A gunshot goes straight only.

A whip can come from any angle when the loop is tugged. |: There's no way to know until the crack.

 

[missingnomaster]

Except that is NOT what happens. Majora does NOT re-angle his whips, and Link does NOT move his shield to better block them.

It's not a game mechanic, it simply doesn't happen.

 

[galekill]

Except that is NOT what happens. Majora does NOT re-angle his whips, and Link does NOT move his shield to better block them.

It's not a game mechanic, it simply doesn't happen.

No, it really is, Link's incapable of moving his shield in-game, you do not have an 'angle shield' button, thus it's ridiculous to expect Link to do such. It's an illogical limitation to insist on.

This is like claiming Samus from super metroid can only shoot forward, because the game is 2D.

 

[Crystanium]

This is what would happen to Link. And heck, he would not be moving once Samus swung him into a building and threw him like nothing. Even the part where Samus is without her Varia Suit, but hits Spartan-458 into the ground, and Spartan-458 gets back up, Link wouldn't be getting back up.

No, it really is, Link's incapable of moving his shield in-game, you do not have an 'angle shield' button, thus it's ridiculous to expect Link to do such. It's an illogical limitation to insist on.

Yeah, so that's a gameplay mechanic, very much the same way it's a gameplay mechanic when Link's shield gets hit, and whatever attack that comes at him in his direction while holding the R button would not work in a real situation. Like I said before, here's another gameplay mechanic. Put on your Bomb Mask. Hold your shield up. Blow up your Bomb Mask. Ta-da! You didn't get injured. In a real situation, your head would be gone, as well as your arm.

This is like claiming Samus from super metroid can only shoot forward, because the game is 2D.

Except, we know that in reality, we can move our arms around in whatever angle we so desire. We also know that shielding a whip does not give you supersonic reaction. It's no more of a fact that it gives us supersonic reaction than jumping away from someone when they sneeze. We aren't capable of moving 102 mph. This does not mean that we can swing on spider silk and not fall to our death. The only reason you keep on talking about your stupid whip idea is because you want to say, "Well, Link can dodge Samus if she ran into him at supersonic speed." Baloney.

 

[Crystanium]

Ignore this.

 

[Uffe]

The tip, IE the attacking portion. Thus, the only part relevant.

The tip doesn't need to hit you just for you to get hurt. The tip is the only part that breaks the sound barrier, not the whole whip.

A whip-crack, ie, the actual attack, does break the sound barrier, stop denying facts.

Re-read. I'm not denying the crack of a whip breaks the sound barrier. I'm denying that the whip as a whole does not go supersonic speed.

Blocking is still reacting, you have to know where somethign is going to land to react.

I put a shield up before someone cracks a whip to avoid getting hit. That's not reaction. I could come at someone with a shield already up to avoid getting hit in the long run. That's not reaction.

And the best strat gameplay-wise, sure. This strat still involves blockign and we don't know 100% how the actual fight went down in canon. We do know the cutscenes show young Link, however.

Link is bound to get hit. His shield isn't large enough to cover his entire body. He'd get stuck at the legs if he were to cover his upper body.

I disagree with this point because of how easy it is to simply tug the loop slightly differently, especially in the case of Majora's prehensile whips. The world record fro most whip cracks in one minute is 420, held by Adam Winrich, who is also in a vidoe I used to illustrate the ease of aim adjustment with a whip.

A whip doesn't move supersonic speed as a whole, only the tip.

 

[galekill]

This is what would happen to Link. And heck, he would not be moving once Samus swung him into a building and threw him like nothing. Even the part where Samus is without her Varia Suit, but hits Spartan-458 into the ground, and Spartan-458 gets back up, Link wouldn't be getting back up.

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to use HALOID?
1. LOL
2. Non-canon.
3. SOOOO non-canon.
4. ..Just lol.

Except, we know that in reality, we can move our arms around in whatever angle we so desire.

Like Link will be able to. The rest of what you said is unimportant. It's all hyperbole and strawmen.

Blocking a whip shows;
1. You knew where it was going to hit
2. You could react to block it before the attack hit.

Because one is not telegraphed until the crack, and the crack breaks the sound barrier, this proves super-sonic reflex.

Very simple, denial is unbecoming of you.

Also, if you're reaching so badly you have to use non-canon, fan-generated material for feats, I think it's obvious you should reconsider your position in this debate.


EDIT: Random fact, nothing done in that video is at all impressive compared to Ganon's strength, which Link has to contend with. :]

 

[galekill]

A whip doesn't move supersonic speed as a whole, only the tip.

And this is the attacking portion, the sped of the handle dsoesn't matter, you're not defending against the handle.

The tip moves super-sonic speeds. This is what Link defended against.

 

[Uffe]

I'm not talking about the handle. I'm talking about the whole whip except the tip. Why do you fail to understand this?

 

[galekill]

I'm not talking about the handle. I'm talking about the whole whip except the tip. Why do you fail to understand this?

I understand, I'm pointing out that the tip is the only part that matters, you only attack with the tip.

 

[missingnomaster]

Majora doesn't angle his whips. Therefore Link doesn't need to angle his shield, which he doesn't.

Putting up a shield =/= super sonic reaction

 

[Crystanium]

I don't know why I bother. Where are those other Link supporters? galekill is making **** up again. When he's proven wrong, he simply says I'm illogical, posts silly *** pictures, says I'm commiting a straw man fallacy, &c. So, truly, this time, I am done, and I will be placing you on ignore. Good-bye.

Majora doesn't angle his whips. Therefore Link doesn't need to angle his shield, which he doesn't.

Putting up a shield =/= super sonic reaction

Ignore him. He's trolling. He is willfully ignorant. He says Link could resist plasma, 54,000 degrees Fahrenheit, even if it him him in the heart. He says that Link can tear Samus' armor apart with his bare hands, since he has the Golden Gauntlets. He says that Link can walk in lava without the Goron tunic. He says that Link moves at supersonic speeds. He says that if Samus were to use her Grappling Beam to grip onto his shield, he would pull her and stab her, breaching her armor with his Master Sword. When you prove him wrong, he dismisses you, calling it a straw man fallacy, or ad hominems, or just ignores it altogether and repeats himself. He commits logical fallacies, such as argumentum ad ignorantiam when it comes to Link and that stupid moon. He says that Samus has never dealt with all the hardships that Link has, thus making her supposedly inferior. So ignore the troll. We'll let him think Link can beat Samus. His friend even thought Link was better than Mewtwo.

 

[galekill]

Majora doesn't angle his whips. Therefore Link doesn't need to angle his shield, which he doesn't.

Putting up a shield =/= super sonic reaction

This is flawed because of the limitted medium. Ofcourse the enemies don't angle their attacks, Link can't angle his shield either, they wouldn't match up this way. This is /gameplay/.

In canon ofcourse Majora can attack around a shield, and ofcourse Link can angle his shield.

 

[missingnomaster]

Of course, just like Samus' Plasma Beam in Super Metroid would one-shot anything if she shoots it in the head, but they can't do that because it would make the game too easy.

Seriously. You are saying that unproven information > proven information. Get real.

 

[Uffe]

I understand, I'm pointing out that the tip is the only part that matters, you only attack with the tip.

The tip creates a sonic boom. A sonic boom that can in fact be dodged by just about any regular being. It doesn't make you or I react to supersonic speed and it doesn't make Link react to supersonic speed. The tip of the whip doesn't necessarily need to hit someone just to do harm. The whip in this video is not moving supersonic speed, only the crack is, which is avoidable by anybody.

 

[Crystanium]

Of course, just like Samus' Plasma Beam in Super Metroid would one-shot anything if she shoots it in the head, but they can't do that because it would make the game too easy.

Seriously. You are saying that unproven information > proven information. Get real.

I'm going to go with Samus from Metroid Fusion. Did you see how powerful that X Suit was? When Samus had the Gravity Suit, one swipe and the Omega Metroid caused Samus to lose all of her Energy Tanks, and had only a tiny amount of energy left. After she absorbed SA-X, the Omega Metroid could only take one Energy Tank off with the same swipe. Furthermore, Samus has Diffusion Missiles, which surrounds the entire radius, which means it would freeze Link. Samus also has her Power Bombs. One hit and Link is gone.

 

[PowerBomb]

Nothing with strength I've seen Ganon do is that impressive. The explosions and other booms he does are magic.

Samus' Suit cannot be tore apart without her willing it.

 

[missingnomaster]

I haven't played fusion, so I can't really comment on it.