Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[Sonic on the Rocks]

I don't see why there's a triple S tier, as that's just rediculous.
I vote that "SSS Tier" be renamed "Ganondorf's Tier", because nobody has any hope of being on the same level as Ganondorf. What with the whole unkillable thing.

mariobrouser, you actually understated some aspects of Sonic (except for the Light-Speed Dash/Attack, which is not actually light-speed).

His speed, speed of sound normally (343 meters per second) allows him to do ramming attacks that would hurt quite a lot, and dodge nearly anything. And he has that boost thing from sonic unleashed.

First, let's note here that in addition to this, he can turn on a dime and has incredible reflexes (dodging bullets and small missles), so 'tunnel vision' and wide turns aren't an issue.

Secondly, Sonic's top speed has never been actually stated. It's only been described as "supersonic". This means in excess of anywhere from Mach 1 to Mach 1.2, depending on what is considered "transonic". As far as canonical measurements are concerned, thanks to measurements taken by the max speed meter in Sonic Unleashed, Sonic has peaked out at around 1300 miles per hour (roughly Mach 1.8). Note that he can at least break the sound barrier instantly with several techniques (such as the "Sonic Boom" from Sonic Rivals).

Chaos Control: He can stop time and warp instantaneously. Freezing opponents, allowing free hits, and an instataneous warp, gonna be pretty hard to touch him

Chaos Control has no reason to be used as a warping tool here. Anything that can touch Sonic in the first place isn't going to be stopped by teleporting. In addition, activation time of Chaos Control is around half a second. In a free-for-all, Sonic should take advantage of the Time Stopping at the begining of the match and use it to transform into Super/Hyper Sonic.
The only person who can survive the beat-down that follows is Ganondorf, who basically has no place here since he's a freaking demi-god.

Sonic Wind: basic attack, but with this, sonic could zoom around and snipe you with it. He can also create small tornadoes.

Sonic Wind isn't that useful against serious foes (RPG-Mario, Samus, Ness), and Sonic has to stop for a second to preform it. It has huge range, but it's not that powerful and can be very easily evaded if the foe moves a few feet. A better choice would be the Blue Tornado, where Sonic instantly creates a vortex that flings anything in its way into the air. Very, very good disruption technique, and causes some damage upon the victim hiting the ground.

Super and Hyper Sonic: His super transformations. I know he has a ring count limitation( i still think he should get max), but 50 seconds of invincibility is a pretty good amount.

Can't see any reason why he can't. 16 1/2 minutes of Super form from 999 rings. Not counting Sonic Unleashed, where he lost 1 ring every five seconds, which would bring the time to at least an hour - a bit much, but There Is No Kill Like Overkill.

He becomes invincible to everything except drowning( hyper can breathe underwater though),

I consider this a game mechanic, considering Super Sonic can apparently breathe in space.

getting crushed which wont be happening

QFT

I dont have an exact number of his speed while super/hyper, but it's at least the speed he can go normally, but most likely faster.

As of recently, Super Sonic seems to be taking on some of Hyper's attributes (in light of the latter not having appeared since 1994). This is particularly notable whenever there's a space-chase scene or stage. If you look at the Sonic Unleashed opening, the speeds that Super Sonic (and Eggman in his rocket-powered Eggmobile) must be traveling are astronomical.
Educated guess, about Mach 10. Way more than fast enough to outspeed everyone in the debate, but Super Sonic suffers from inertia problems much more than normal Sonic.

Hyper also gives him a lightning flash attack that would kill all minor enemies on screen, which he can use to do damage.

Yeah, but it'd be pretty minor damage. Head-on rams would be much more effective. Better yet, get in close and launch a beatdown.

he gets gear in his games, but i dont think any would be too usefull except the ancient light(light speed attack) and flame ring(fire attacks)

The Fire Somersault wouldn't be very helpful at all, unless it was against...the Ice Climbers, or something.
The Light Speed attack would be good for characters with multiple minions or missles.

Put all of this together, and you have a VERY serious opponent. he deserves SSS tier. Maybe samus cold deal with him, but i still think he'd blow by ness and lucas.

In my opinion, Ness/Lucas could be more serious of a threat to Sonic than Samus. But really, Super Sonic basically gives him temporary Ganondorf status. Until it wears off, you can't hurt him, and he's got all of his powers x10.

Sonic for the Tier below Ganondorf's Tier.

 

[BSP]

What? Sonic's even better than I thought? YES!

 

[PowerBomb]

I consider this a game mechanic, considering Super Sonic can apparently breathe in space.

Which makes no sense at all.

I mean, in water, I'd understand since there's oxygen, but space is all gloomy and stuff.

 

[BSP]

Which makes no sense at all.

I mean, in water, I'd understand since there's oxygen, but space is all gloomy and stuff.

lol ur right. Can't breathe in water as super, but can survive in space...even as regular sonic.

 

[BigDaddy4]

lol ur right. Can't breathe in water as super, but can survive in space...even as regular sonic.

i kinda wondered how hes able to survive in space but not in water

 

[killbeast301]

What game does Sonic 'breathe' in space?
If it's the unleashed opening, where he's on eggman's ship, remember that there's also FIRE. Fire is AIR heated to the point where it glows. No air, no fire. The fire assures us that there's air.

 

[BSP]

sonic adventure two battle, on the final rush stage, he's in space yet he still manages to survive. unless the ARK has some invisible air dome

 

[Neckbeard Torterra]

What game does Sonic 'breathe' in space?
If it's the unleashed opening, where he's on eggman's ship, remember that there's also FIRE. Fire is AIR heated to the point where it glows. No air, no fire. The fire assures us that there's air.

Sonic 2.
Hes in space until you beat Robotnic/Eggfellow.

Sonic without super can breath in VERY high atmospheres.
Soooo many levels take place up high somewhere.

 

[killbeast301]

SA2- I might be remembering something incorrectly here but: There were doors that when they opened would suck you out, as in the air rushes out and carries you with it (there's air inside). Then you would go to a point where there was a big opening to outside the ARK, but air wasn't rushing out there (not sure what this means). I might be mixing 2 different parts of the game here though.

Sonic 2: Didn't play that one, so I'm just going to ask: He's clearly in a place where there is not supposed to be air, as normal sonic?

 

[Kewkky]

In SA2 and SA2B, he breathes outside while fighting Shadow in the Space Colony, as well as in the last areas of the semi-last Sonic stage. He also breathes as Super Sonic throughout the whole Finalhazard fight, along with Hyper Shadow

 

[Neckbeard Torterra]

Sonic 2: Didn't play that one, so I'm just going to ask: He's clearly in a place where there is not supposed to be air, as normal sonic?

Those Sky levels seem to be higher than what a passenger plane seems to be able to do. But even at passenger plane hight, theres not much air.
Super Sonic time at the end looks like a hundred or so miles above the Earth's atmosphere.

 

[missingnomaster]

Sonic 2.
Hes in space until you beat Robotnic/Eggfellow.

Sonic without super can breath in VERY high atmospheres.
Soooo many levels take place up high somewhere.

In the Death Egg? But Robotnic was there too, and he didn't die, even when he ran to get into his final machine.

 

[PowerBomb]

Crazy Gadget level in SAB:2.

 

[Neckbeard Torterra]

In the Death Egg? But Robotnic was there too, and he didn't die, even when he ran to get into his final machine.

i thought death egg was S&K.
Well there was a space chase.. then possibly Robotnik went to his 'death egg' to fight again? I remember fighting that Mech on solid ground. I don't know which event came first.

Everything else is a blur.
Not sure how Sonic returned back to the surface either.

 

[missingnomaster]

i thought death egg was S&K.
Well there was a space chase.. then possibly Robotnik went to his 'death egg' to fight again? I remember fighting that Mech on solid ground. I don't know which event came first.

Everything else is a blur.
Not sure how Sonic returned back to the surface either.

The Death Egg was also in Sonic 2. You fought robo Sonic and Robotnic there.

There was probably air on the Death Egg, but after the fight, you have to jump out of it. So Sonic was in space for a bit.

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

It IS possible to survive in space for a short period of time (like 40 seconds...and after 15 or so, you loose conciousness), but that doesn't explain how Sonic doesn't suffocate, as there's very small amounts of air at such heights. Not to mention how cold it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqWiDbIQFv0
There's no question that Super Sonic can "breathe" in a vaccum (does he have to at all?).
Though I would like someone to explain something to me...at 1:24...HOW is he still Super several days later?

 

[missingnomaster]

It IS possible to survive in space for a short period of time (like 40 seconds...and after 15 or so, you loose conciousness), but that doesn't explain how Sonic doesn't suffocate, as there's very small amounts of air at such heights. Not to mention how cold it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqWiDbIQFv0
There's no question that Super Sonic can "breathe" in a vaccum (does he have to at all?).
Though I would like someone to explain something to me...at 1:24...HOW is he still Super several days later?

O_O We're all screwed now.... (Except Ganondorf...)

 

[Kewkky]

Though I would like someone to explain something to me...at 1:24...HOW is he still Super several days later?

Maybe... His rings only start running out when he's in danger? And danger as in, not based off of natural factors (fights against monsters, people, animals, etc)?

So he takes someone, drags them into space, they won't be able to fight, and now he has infinite rings to watch them die and push them closer to a black hole. That's seriously uncool... Luckily, Ganon just keeps coming back, hehehe.

 

[Ussi]

It IS possible to survive in space for a short period of time (like 40 seconds...and after 15 or so, you loose conciousness), but that doesn't explain how Sonic doesn't suffocate, as there's very small amounts of air at such heights. Not to mention how cold it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqWiDbIQFv0
There's no question that Super Sonic can "breathe" in a vaccum (does he have to at all?).
Though I would like someone to explain something to me...at 1:24...HOW is he still Super several days later?

There are obviously rings in space. S&K: Doomsday Zone is a clear example.

 

[missingnomaster]

Maybe... His rings only start running out when he's in danger? And danger as in, not based off of natural factors (fights against monsters, people, animals, etc)?

So he takes someone, drags them into space, they won't be able to fight, and now he has infinite rings to watch them die and push them closer to a black hole. That's seriously uncool... Luckily, Ganon just keeps coming back, hehehe.

I'm not really sure what would happen to Ganondorf. But if he is killed in a match, unless he can come back almost instantly, he loses.

There are obviously rings in space. S&K: Doomsday Zone is a clear example.

But enough to last a few days? That's a LOT of rings. I guess he could explore, but, he'd have to cover a lot of distance, and coming back would be difficult.

Edit: post 1111!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!!!!!one

 

[REL38]

In SA2 and SA2B, he breathes outside while fighting Shadow in the Space Colony, as well as in the last areas of the semi-last Sonic stage. He also breathes as Super Sonic throughout the whole Finalhazard fight, along with Hyper Shadow

But Rouge was able to breathe in Mad Space as well as Knuckles in Meteor Herd.

I wanna say there's some mega-gigantic air shield around the entire ARK, but idk

Super Sonic breathing in Space makes more sense than normal Sonic, though

 

[Kewkky]

But Rouge was able to breathe in Mad Space as well as Knuckles in Meteor Herd.

Yeaaa... And Sonic never really needed anything to survive in Final Rush. I guess they're weird like that, probably don't even need oxygen to keep their bodies working. But since we're discussing Sonic, let's leave the rest of the furries alone.

I wanna say there's some mega-gigantic air shield around the entire ARK, but idk

Lol. I don't even know how the air shield would hold, or how it'll get started.

 

[missingnomaster]

This is interesting I guess, but what does surviving in space do for Sonic as far as this thread goes? He can't get there unless he's Super anyway, in which case there's no problem.

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

I guess they're weird like that, probably don't even need oxygen to keep their bodies working

Since they can drown 'n all.

IT SEEMS QUITE OBVIOUS TO ME THAT RINGS ARE A LIMITER SO BOSS FIGHTS ARE LOOSE-ABLE.
Super Sonic's usage of Rings are a game mechanic.
Hell, the only thing they've shown to be useful as in cutscenes is as currency. Appart from their gravity-defying properties, there doesn't appear to be anything special about them.

 

[Lovely]

I really didn't get why Sonic Unleashed for the 360/PS3 had a ring meter. I guess that last boss was so strong that he's able to knock the rings out of Sonic. O_o

 

[Darxmarth23]

the falcon punch used in the series blew up the universe.

black shadow also had plenty of time to escape it.

marth slayed the largest dragon in the world with two slices

weilding the blade of light, marth has considerable power and speed

both should be placed higher

 

[missingnomaster]

the falcon punch used in the series blew up the universe.

black shadow also had plenty of time to escape it.



both should be placed higher

INCOMPREHENSIBLE AMOUNT OF FAIL.
1.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa5OkdP3-r8&feature=related

2. Since when did an explosion only visible from outside the galaxy blow up the entire universe?

3. How can you have plenty of time to escape the destruction of the universe?

4. Where in this thread does it say anime is allowed?

 

[Darxmarth23]

INCOMPREHENSIBLE AMOUNT OF FAIL.
1.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa5OkdP3-r8&feature=related

2. Since when did an explosion only visible from outside the galaxy blow up the entire universe?

3. How can you have plenty of time to escape the destruction of the universe?

4. Where in this thread does it say anime is allowed?

Thank you for the congeniality

1 ---
2 sue me
3 he could have dodged it instead of just hovering there like an idiot screaming crap at doug
4 its falcons lore. if the true punch was implemented into smash falcon would be beyond broken

 

[missingnomaster]

1.People don't know a bomb/reactor when they see one.
2.Done
3. If it was strong enough to destroy the entire universe, it wouldn't matter if it hit Black Shadow or not.
4. I repeat my statement. Saying it is lore does not mean that it is true to the games.

 

[REL38]

1.People don't know a bomb/reactor when they see one.
2.Done
3. If it was strong enough to destroy the entire universe, it wouldn't matter if it hit Black Shadow or not.
4. I repeat my statement. Saying it is lore does not mean that it is true to the games.

Trufax

Anime can't be considered when demonstrating power or skills.
Especially when it sometimes is soooo contradictory to the games.

Kirby never when inside of a Space Halberd to go fight Nightmare in his game . . .


It's been that way since the beginning, here.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ After playing Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story, (I still didn't beat). I think I'm a little afraid of what Peach can able to do,

Spoiler

the part where she wished Bowser was weaken. >.<

☆

 

[Sonic on the Rocks]

along with Hyper Shadow

*nerd rage*
IT'S SUPER SHADOW, NOT HYPER SHADOW

I really didn't get why Sonic Unleashed for the 360/PS3 had a ring meter. I guess that last boss was so strong that he's able to knock the rings out of Sonic. O_o

Supers can hurt other Supers. This is shown best in Sonic Chronicles, where Sonic fights another character powered by Chaos Energy. They can hurt each other.
At the start of the game, Dark Gaia (the final boss) is awakened when he's hit by a HUGE beam of Chaos Energy. Later on, he gets a boost from even more energy that the Werehog had in him, and he transformes (Super).

Maybe... His rings only start running out when he's in danger? And danger as in, not based off of natural factors (fights against monsters, people, animals, etc)?

If you stand still with no enemies on the screen, you will still lose rings.

There are obviously rings in space. S&K: Doomsday Zone is a clear example.

Give me a reason why Rings would canonically exist in space.
As far as I know, Rings have only been used as a currency in the series canon.
The only reason they're in space is to suport Super Sonic, and the only reason he needs them is as a Power Limiter put in place by SEGA, so boss fights aren't unlosable.
Besides, as KB said, to remain Super Sonic for 3 days (could've been more) he would need 259,200 rings. If the trip back to Earth took 3 days (as they say "a few", I'm assuming this number as a minimum) Sonic had to find all of these Rings while traveling straight for Earth at a speed roughly that of the Appolo 11 spacecraft. This does not account for Sonic having to sleep periodically, nor the question of whether or not he can even remain Super while unconcious (sleeping).

This is interesting I guess, but what does surviving in space do for Sonic as far as this thread goes? He can't get there unless he's Super anyway, in which case there's no problem.

I agree.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

☆ After playing Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story, (I still didn't beat). I think I'm a little afraid of what Peach can able to do,

Spoiler

the part where she wished Bowser was weaken. >.<

☆

What are you trying to say?

 

[Unknownlight]

Ah...how Sonic breathes in space...that's a debate that was going on at The Sonic Stadium too. I can think of two answers. Either:

My opinion? I say that space stations in the Sonic series are built with a sort of bubble of energy surrounding it that creates gravity and oxygen. The technology that does this is the same technology as the elemental shields from Sonic 3. Kinda far-fetched, but it's the only answer I can think of.

Or the much more obvious answer that I believe in now: What if in the Sonic series, there's air in outer space?!

You see? Now everything makes sense!

 

[BSP]

whether or not sonic can breathe in space, we know one thing: Sonic belongs in SSS tier definitely, and/or under Ganon

 

[ShadowLink84]

It takes two seconds in Super Metroid to start up the Speed Booster. Also, you cannot run into bosses with the Speed Booster, so that's irrelevant. Well, all right. I think you can Shinespark Draygon in Super Metroid, which causes a considerable amount of damage. I've only heard about this. I've never tried it, as I usually defeat Draygon by electrocuting him.

I've never managed to nail him with the shine spark, somehow, I miss.
Use an AR, I think bosses in Fusion tend to block it iirc.

In either case, Sonic is doing hyper sonic speeds as evidenced in Unleashed and by the story in SA.

lus he can get ot max speed near instantaneously. Thats pretty tough stuff.

LATE REPLY WOOOO!

 

[황미영]

I wonder why is Ganondorf in such a high tier? He doesn't really have anything special to him what so ever. Look at all the games he's been in, and please explain what makes him so great.

I would say Lucas, Ness, and Mewtwo should replace Ganon.

 

[REL38]

I wonder why is Ganondorf in such a high tier? He doesn't really have anything special to him what so ever. Look at all the games he's been in, and please explain what makes him so great.

I would say Lucas, Ness, and Mewtwo should replace Ganon.

Only Link can actually "kill" Ganon cuz of the Master Sword or w/e.

Everyone else can't

 

[Crystanium]

I've never managed to nail him with the shine spark, somehow, I miss.
Use an AR, I think bosses in Fusion tend to block it iirc.

I've never tried it in Fusion.

In either case, Sonic is doing hyper sonic speeds as evidenced in Unleashed and by the story in SA.

No doubt.

Oh, and people, remember when the word "super light speed" was used for Olimar's ship? Well, there is an actual term for that. It's called "superluminous speed," or "Faster Than Light." I think we should all consider a few things about speed as well. Missiles can go at Mach speed. There was one missile that I read about that went at Mach 23. That would land in high hypersonic speed. So, I'm wondering if Samus' Missiles would be useful to push Super Sonic back, since he's not taking damage.

I decided one day to check how fast missiles went when I was watching a clip from the Iron Man movie. Iron Man flies at supersonic speed, as it is noted by the person in the jet who is going after him. He then says that he has a lock and fires a missile. That missile flies faster than Iron Man and catches up to him. Iron Man uses his flares to get rid of it, but he still is hit by the blast. The Sprint missile can go Mach 10 in five seconds. Other missiles out there like the Python missiles can travel Mach 3.5 or Mach 4.

There is something else I want to talk about regarding speed. Walk in a circle. You will notice that it doesn't take as much movement to walk in a circle. Now if you run in a circle, the circle widens a bit. The faster the speed, the bigger the circle you are running in will become. So, anything with very high speeds will have a harder time turning. It will need more distance to turn around. In the Iron Man movie, Iron Man, after escaping the two jets, flies straight, but in a circular manner. Here is a picture for everyone to see.

Green = Normal
Yellow Green = Running
Yellow = Driving
Orange Yellow = Speed of sound
Orange = Supersonic speeds
Red = Hypersonic speeds
Magenta = Speed of light
Black = Warp speed

As we can see, warp speed is much, much wider. If warp speed was possible, the only true and best way to get from point A to point B would be by creating a worm hole. Magenta is speed of light, so really, the best way to get from point A to point B would be running in a straight line. Running in a circle would be difficult, and light, by the way, only goes in one direction, unless it is reflected. Hypersonic speeds are fast, but still, going in a circle would take long. Supersonic speeds allows some better movement than the previous ones, because with lesser speed, you have an easier time turning around. The point I am trying to make here is that the fast characters, Sonic and Samus, they don't need to use their full speed.

Only Link can actually "kill" Ganon cuz of the Master Sword or w/e.

Everyone else can't

I think Samus would have a chance, since the Light Beam is "light" in that abstract sense like Light Arrows. If she did defeat him, since the Light Arrows actually remove Ganondorf's guard, he'd still return anyway. So, the true reason why Ganondorf is so high up is not just because the majority of the characters can't defeat him, but because he will always return anyway.

Aside from all of this, I wonder why we aren't doing what JOE! is doing. He not only discusses the characters in the game, but also the bosses.

 

[황미영]

But then why is it that in the first Legend of Zelda he dies for good?

Also, wouldn't Link and Zelda always come back in that sense? Since there is always a new Link and Zelda. Maybe them three should be high tier then.