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Smash Bros. Melee was "too difficult" - New Sakurai Interview

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UberMario

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I disagree with Sakurai's interview about Melee too difficult (by far), but keep in mind, while Melee was successful internationally, in the seven years it was on the market, it sold poorer in Japan than the original did in the mere two years that it was on their market. Considering that the creator is Japanese, this probably bothered him (even though Melee outsold SSB64 by 2 mil in the NA and 0.5 in PAL regions) making him want to make it more open, besides, didn't he say that Brawl would be the last one that he (Sakurai) would work on? Wouldn't that mean that if any new director stepped in, it could have a shot at being hardcore? Besides, they could just simply kill two birds with one stone and make multiple physics settings, with different attributes and different levels of technicalities.
 

M@1funk$hun

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someone mentioned it before I think, but he doesn't have to go through all of that again
he can simply copy the engine he used for melee over to a new game and start from there

all in all, if he makes another brawl look-alike I'm not going to buy it. I'd rather not give Sakurai and nintendo the satisfaction of having that power over the competitive community
 

ranmaru

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Dude I LOOOVVEED playing FFA with my buddies. I wasn't into tournaments.

****. I would not be having fun that way if it were Brawl.

Yeah, I would want smash to be given to Capcom as well.

I mean, now SSF4 is kinda slow too, but I'm sure they could make one that's faster, balanced, and RIGHT FOR EVERYONE. Right for the casual who just wants to have fun, and the dedicated specialist who wants to be the pokemon master of smash.

Thank you Sakurai for spending all that time for melee... but please don't spend any more just for casuals.

You really are letting us down.
 

Wretched

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Doesn't he understand that it only appealed to hardcore players among other hardcore players? You don't have to pick up the game and instantly have tech skill to keep up with your friend who is starting too.
I think he is misinformed, especially being the designer of the game.
I really hope smash four recovers.
it must
pun
 

Eternal Yoshi

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This mindset will come back to bite SSB4 and whatever he does in the butt hard.
Harder then Brawl.

Not focusing on gameplay and balance mechanics is basically developer sepikku nowadays and ultimately damages the quality and longevity of the game.

This is why there should never be another smash game ever again.
 

JPOBS

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2. as i said before, i think gaming is going to start moving in a more hardcore direction in the future
Really? i dont see it at all.

Gaming has pretty much being going towards the casual direction slowly for the last 20 years (keeping in mind gaming as we know it is only about 25 years old), basiclaly its entire lifespan.

Whats to stop the trend?
 

ranmaru

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Games are going to play themselves. I would never let my kid let the computer play a level for them. Gah that's worse then schools focusing on the state tests just to get money then really giving a good learning experience...



Not that people are usually dedicated:

some dude from that link said:
"I hate fighting games 'cos I can never be bothered learning the combos. Would I like this? Or is it, despite its cute loveliness and novelty options, still a normal fighting game underneath? :-/"
 

Signia

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bull****

Melee isn't a "hard" game. It was revolutionarily accessible for it's time. Every character has the same attack inputs, all of which are as simple as possible. There aren't even very many attack inputs involving diagonals. It's about as light as you can get with execution.

The only thing that makes Melee execution heavy is the movement speed, control sensitivity, and lack of an input buffer (which was poorly implemented in Brawl). If having fast-paced action and precision controls makes a game "hard," I doubt casual players really dislike this kind of "hard," because that's just good game design.

Statements like "Melee was just too hard" really scares me. Idk why you think the "hardcore" games will eventually be more popular, Toph. As games become more mainstream, they must necessarily suffer due having to please the masses in order to maximize profit. All I'm seeing is games for toddlers and grandmas, pretentious "art games," and disappointing sequel after sequel.
 

ranmaru

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Although, it'll be just like Music.

Mainstream games probably will be mostly casual.

But then, maybe we'll have to do just by word of mouth.

Hopefully someone will go out and try to please the hard core croud. :3

Although, I don't know what fighting games I'd like outside smash...

I like Guilty Gear and Blazblue. Maybe Marvel Vs Capcom 2 and street fighter, I don't know.

(I suck at street fighter though, but I do know I really liked street fighter three, because some of the characters were cool and was fast)
 

mizujin

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Sakurai makes little boys cry. :(

And I wouldn't say Melee is harder to play than Brawl (casually).
 

omgwtfToph

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Statements like "Melee was just too hard" really scares me. Idk why you think the "hardcore" games will eventually be more popular, Toph. As games become more mainstream, they must necessarily suffer due having to please the masses in order to maximize profit. All I'm seeing is games for toddlers and grandmas, pretentious "art games," and disappointing sequel after sequel.
You're thinking too short-term.

Gaming is still a niche in society these days. but casual gaming is on the rise, and is bringing people from the mainstream in droves, and with massive "serious" timesink games like WoW popular as ever, gaming as a lifestyle is becoming more and more accepted. Currently, developers seek to distinguish themselves from each other primarily with better graphics, and new "innovative" ideas (both in hardware, such as the Wii, and weird gameplay such as the "art games" you're talking about) . this trend can't go on forever, though:

as graphics "peak out" (this is going to happen very, very soon imo) and therefore vying for the best graphics becomes futile, and as the "let's innovate new ways to play" trend starts to die out (there's also evidence for this. people who buy wii shovelware really only play these games for the novelty, and once the novelty wears off, they will either stop gaming or transition to more "complete" games), developers are going to have to find a new way to keep players interested. this will lead to the weeding out of ****ty studios i think

furthermore, developers know that once you have hooked a fanbase, you can keep them playing with spikes in both difficulty and gameplay. see: franchises like Guitar Hero. Guitar Hero captured a large audience stateside, and then ramped up the difficulty. the result? completely ordinary people in college dorms everywhere who can 5-star TTFAF Expert. that's a serious gaming accomplishment. anyway, because gaming will be more socially accepted in the future, more "regular people" will play games, and developers will seek to keep these people playing by providing the only improvement that will be possible in a decade or so: better gameplay.

I think Japan is a year or two ahead of the USA in this trend to be honest. my 40-year-old boss at work plays CoD religiously, for example, lol
 

ranmaru

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I hope he'll give us new copies of melee... maybe. xD Hope he doesn't do anything to 'em.
 

ERayz

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Personally, I don't care about what Sakurai said in this interview, because I don't need another game, since Melee is Perfect IMO....

Even if there was another smash game just as good, or better than Melee to be released in the future, I wouldn't have much interest for it, since I don't want to learn another game, I don't want to feel I wasted my time on Melee. And it would only split the community even more :(

But, the only thing that could be cool, is that they release an exact replica of Melee on newer consoles (compatible with GC controllers), so we could conserve functional Melee discs longer (since I think all discs will eventually be worn out). And then add a viable Online Mode with low lag, with features such as rankings, tournaments, money matches (!??!?!), and the ability to have custom rulesets, instead of that crappy Brawl's online ruleset.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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LOL @ the pic. I think Sakurai is going to follow Kojima's path and not wanting to make another Smash Bros game but ends up making it anyway.

Sakurai-san doesn't have to make Smash Bros anymore.
Thumbs up if you get the reference.

That's another point ErayZ brings up. We don't need another base breaker.
 

UberMario

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who cares what sakurai thinks as long as he agrees to give us brand new spankin copies of Melee once our ten-year old ones wear out
But, the only thing that could be cool, is that they release an exact replica of Melee on newer consoles (compatible with GC controllers), so we could conserve functional Melee discs longer (since I think all discs will eventually be worn out).
What the heck do you guys do to your discs? I've had my Melee disc for around eight years at least and there aren't any visible scratches on mine, and I've clocked in nearly 1000 hours (literally) on it.
 

Ripple

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I seem to recall sakurai also saying in an interview that he would be totally up for making another smash game. am I mistaken?
 

BEES

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I think the technical learning curve in Melee is too steep in some areas, but the depth is in a good place, and if it were up to me, it would be deeper. All that should have happened was a smoothing out of some of the bumps along the journey to mastery.

Sakurai took the wrong approach. He cut the journey short, thereby making it worthless.

Why are software developers going for watered-down casual games? It's not going to improve their profits. Our generation did just fine with hard games. Games should not be easy to master. They should be EASY TO LEARN, HARD TO MASTER.

Which Brawl certainly isn't.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'm going to offer a different view point I agree with.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11768555&postcount=76

Sakurai is really in the right here. At the end of the day, a game's competitive scene is largely a product of mass popularity, and as a developer, you really don't want to make your game niche.

He was even further right in that the easiest way to make the game more accessible while sacrificing as little as possible was taking an axe to the manual dexterity tests in the game. Removing the need to press a shield button after landing every non-G&W aerial and adding that buffer window really didn't hurt depth at all, but they greatly improved accessibility. Making the game as a whole slower was really not necessary beyond the obvious balance implication that the fastest characters are definitely not entitled to be automatically top tier, and I think on some level the development team just didn't give people enough credit for their ability to handle speed (stuff like Lucas/Ivysaur usmash are only useful moves if you don't give people credit at all). It's not really that bad though; Brawl's years of legitimate tournament success show us that it definitely plays out well.

A whole lot of smart design for competitive play went into all sorts of corners for the game (basically all original content adds such incredible diversity to the game), and Brawl really does work very well. The only real problems it has are a few too many "dumb" abuses like infinites and whatnot, ledge play being a bit too powerful, and a few characters who are a little off in balance. None of these issues can really be blamed on making the game accessible, and indeed all of them have counterparts in Melee. Sheik's chaingrab is really just as bad as anything in Brawl like DDD's chaingrab, there's ledge stalling in Melee it's just harder so fewer people bothered (though I don't think it's actually worse, just harder), and Melee has an even worse case of uselessly bad characters at the bottom of the tier list in exchange for having a more ambiguous top tier. The accessibility perhaps highlighted it; most people never really realized these issues in Melee. I mean, I think we all saw countless arguments about how great Roy was which really proved how many people just didn't get the game at all. Brawl was more accessible so even many of the lower skill players were picking up on stuff like Meta Knight being pretty good or being able to execute the stupid stuff that just totally ruins certain match-ups. The effect, of course, is much more widespread in terms of fall-out since when only the better players are picking up on poorly balanced and polished stuff and exploiting it, it kinda looks the same as them just being better than the other players which means the better players don't complain and the worse players do complain but basically are saying that being good at the game is cheap which is of course laughable. Maybe that means, perversely, that accessible games need to have higher standards than less accessible games in terms of balance and polish since more people will be affected by mistakes in those areas and the mistakes will be more obvious. It's an interesting case study.

I look forward to any Smash 4 in any case. I've been quite fond of Brawl, I support the design directions Sakurai chose, and I think he really does understand most of what is required to make an even better game.
So I dunno, I don't like how much Brawl did dumb down on some aspects, but at the same time I did like some of the things it did remove.

Looking at the older posts, I'm not sure if this will go anywhere, but I'll just throw this out there and see where it goes.
 

Pi

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i agree w/ jam stunna

he doesn't have to only cater to 1 audience (casual vs. comeptitive)
because from what i hear, casual gamers don't care about winning or losing, they just 'play for fun'
so what difference does it make if the competitive gamers can 4 stock the casual gamers with no items fox only FD if the casual gamers are playing with items on, on big blue

melee is a party game w/ the potential of the best fighting game of all time
it suits everyone who's a fan of the series, or any character in the game
what is this guy smoking

i'd also like to remind everyone that even though brawl outsold melee
it did so because it already had a huge fanbase, from melee

i'd bet that if smash 4 does come out, it won't do as well as brawl, because brawl was a disappointment
 

bertbusdriver

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What the heck do you guys do to your discs? I've had my Melee disc for around eight years at least and there aren't any visible scratches on mine, and I've clocked in nearly 1000 hours (literally) on it.
A lot of stuff can happen in 9 years.... inconsiderate guests come over, play your video games, switch the game disc, but don't even bother to but it back in the case..... or a million other things. not everyone had the luxury of being able to leave melee in their gamecube for 9 years and never having it exposed to the cruelties of the outside world.... (as much as i would have liked that)
 

omgwtfToph

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So I dunno, I don't like how much Brawl did dumb down on some aspects, but at the same time I did like some of the things it did remove.

Looking at the older posts, I'm not sure if this will go anywhere, but I'll just throw this out there and see where it goes.
i agree with everything said about better balance.

i disagree with the "manual dexterity" bit for the following reason:

casual players are generally unaware that L-cancelling and so forth exist in the first place. brawl was not popular because it advertised "Lesser Execution Requirements!!!" on the back of the box. and likewise, i would argue that slowing down the gameplay had nothing to do with brawl's sales. after all, melee also sold like hotcakes, remember?

melee and brawl were both popular at release because they were colorful party/fighting hybrids that brought popular nintendo characters together. THAT is what attracted a casual following. the developing of high-level gameplay is inclusive to mass popularity. thus, in-depth game design decisions such as speed and comboability affect competitive play, and nothing else

edit: this includes stuff like adding a buffer window. find me a few competitive brawlers today who will say "i stuck to competitive brawl because it had a buffer window allowing for easier execution! i probably would've quit otherwise" and i'll agree with you, but i really, really don't think the buffer window has anything to do with the popularity of brawl.
 

TheDekuNut

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I'm surprised Sakurai didn't realize to mention why he was so compelled to spend 40 consecutive hours each time he sat down to make this game for 13 months. It's because he was compelled by it's perfection and beauty. It was obviously a labor of love in contrast to brawl's flashy emptiness. And i can see it coming Game of the decade on Gamefaqs and a bunch of other websites i'm sure. Maybe if it wins it will get some more recognition. its currently beating CoD 4 with 75% its next showdown.. Brawl.
<3 Melee
 

choknater

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LOl wow gamefaqs is gonna be mad hype if and when brawl vs melee goes up on the poll
 

Oracle

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As much as I love sakurai for making melee, I hate how he's gone on board with the "competitive games can't be fun" ship. That's just flat out not true. Halo 2 was incredibly competitive, even with difficult exploits like melee, and everyone still loved it. There was just a small, loud minority of angry casual gamers who spite the competitive gamers because they're too stupid to comprehend something they do for fun being played seriously. If brawl had advanced techniques, it would have sold more than it did because we would have bought it and everyone still would have liked it because of the features, graphics, and characters (what casuals are concerned with).

Yes, I mad
 

omgwtfToph

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dude speaking of gamefaqs

koreandj posted on gamefaqs today

edit: and it was definitely labor of love. game development is hard, hard, hard, hard work. i wanted to be a game developer when i first got into computer science and i have long since given up on that dream. it's such a hard field to work in. 60-80 hour work weeks are the norm, and if you don't work weekends you're a scrub pretty much. i definitely give sakurai props after reading that interview. i kinda want to like, sit down and have lunch with the guy or something
 

Snakeyes

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Sakurai is an idiot (albeit a talented one) and that's the first thing I'd tell him if we met in person.

Smash sells because of the cast of characters first, its frantic nature second and the low execution barrier third. The only reason why Brawl sold more than Melee is that the Wii has sold three times as much as the GC. That's all there is to it. He had already made a game that allowed casual and competitive players to have fun in their own ways ten years ago. Make L-canceling automatic (i.e. reduce lag on all aerials) and you've got a perfect game.
 

TheDekuNut

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dude speaking of gamefaqs

koreandj posted on gamefaqs today

edit: and it was definitely labor of love. game development is hard, hard, hard, hard work. i wanted to be a game developer when i first got into computer science and i have long since given up on that dream. it's such a hard field to work in. 60-80 hour work weeks are the norm, and if you don't work weekends you're a scrub pretty much. i definitely give sakurai props after reading that interview. i kinda want to like, sit down and have lunch with the guy or something
I still love the guy for making this game and i understand how much work you need to go through to make this kind of stuff. I just wish he would consider all of the excellent points made in this thread as to why games like melee are still fun for the dreaded casual. There just aren't enough developers that care about this type of games anymore. But who cares all i need is melee
 

-ACE-

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*reads OP*

*takes quick look in fridge*

*searches for bottle opener*

*pours out a sip for melee*

*grabs controller*

Power ON.
 

Ripple

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*reads OP*

*takes quick look in fridge*

*searches for bottle opener*

*pours out a sip for melee*

*grabs controller*

Power ON.

you have no idea how much this spoke to me. I will do this
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
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Sakurai is an idiot (albeit a talented one) and that's the first thing I'd tell him if we met in person.

Smash sells because of the cast of characters first, its frantic nature second and the low execution barrier third. The only reason why Brawl sold more than Melee is that the Wii has sold three times as much as the GC. That's all there is to it. He had already made a game that allowed casual and competitive players to have fun in their own ways ten years ago. Make L-canceling automatic (i.e. reduce lag on all aerials) and you've got a perfect game.
I really really agree with this.





Sakurai had some ideas for interesting things in Brawl.

*Remove wavedashing*

Sure, I mean while it opens up possibilities, it was never intended to work that way. And isn't something natural to discover.

*Remove L-cancelling and replace with a buffer window*

Okay I guess. I mean, L-cancelling is a fairly identifiable skill barrier that separates hardcore players from the casual crew. It was a rewarding mechanic, but for the sake of appeasing a view point that there should be less between the two, okay.

*Add Reverse grabs*

Well that's cool. Now I can do RPS style approaches involving running past my opponent and grabbing their shield without needing to stop.

*Momentum reversal*

Cool, I can completely reverse the direction of my momentum, extending approaching options in a different direction from Melee's.





But then he took away too much. Dash dancing's pseudo-replacement is a complicated mode of pivoting at the end of foxtrots to dash in the other direction. It's not fluid, or a replacement (since it's in fact harder to do, which works against Sakurai's design to make it easier, and tactically less effective because you can't control the distance) and I think being able to change direction in Melee's dash dancing at any point worked better.




The biggest loss of all is the hitstun (glitches and abusable tactics aside). If the game had more hit stun, and more fluid movement options (and no tripping), I think Melee players these days would at least not bash it as hard as they do.
 
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