Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ZephyrZ]

Custom music is fine if offline. But once online, there's major legal issues. This is part of why Mii Fighters couldn't be used With Anyone as well. There was also balance factors, since they don't have a "set" moveset.

What I always found odd about the use of Mii Fighters online is that you could always see the mii attached to your opponent's NNID, you just couldn't fight them. Not to mention that people were able to use Miis online in Mario Kart.

Are we sure it wasn't just balance issues?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I don't think you could use custom music online, from a simple usability standpoint. Ever gone on a Team Fortress 2 seriver and then instantly regretted it when it spend half an hour downloading the server's unique assets (usually Unreal tournament's announcer)

That said, there's nothing to prevent it working offline. I remember it being a big feature in Endless Ocean.

 

[Deleted member]

Well it was either that or let Hitler start showing up in online matches. I mean, it already happens in Mario Party, but I believe that was an additional concern with Miis. But the Switch's Mii creation seems to be a bit more primitive than before, so I don't think it'd be as much of an issue

EDIT: I meant Mario Kart I was talking about Mario Party somewhere else, oops

Actually, the Switch has a bunch of options for creating Miis, it's just not really used because no game (besides Mario Kart, that is) uses Miis right now and the creator is buried in the system settings menu.

My point is that allowing Miis is easy: Simply restrict it to these three with their default movesets:

Spoiler

People who like Miis get to play as them, and Nintendo doesn't have to worry about people being dumb and doing dumb things with them. Seems like a win win to me, but who knows, maybe there's something I'm not seeing? It's hard to know why they did what they did without an official explanation, which I don't think was ever given.

 

[DarthEnderX]

My Switch has never even touched the dock since I got it.

My switch only ever leaves the dock when I switch out the game card...

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Well it was either that or let Hitler start showing up in online matches. I mean, it already happens in Mario Party, but I believe that was an additional concern with Miis. But the Switch's Mii creation seems to be a bit more primitive than before, so I don't think it'd be as much of an issue

EDIT: I meant Mario Kart I was talking about Mario Party somewhere else, oops

Yeah, But explain the Miiverse Stage... 90% of the stuff there were Profanity, Character Insults, and R34
How could the Miis being online have been worse than that?

 

[amazonevan19]

And thanks to everyone who stopped by the booth to try Super #SmashBrosUltimate! We hope you’re all excited for the game’s release on 12/7! 🔥 pic.twitter.com/3sCxhT3ci2

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) October 7, 2018

yeah nope doesn't sound like any kind of announcement is happening

 

[Polan]

Are there legal issues with allowing users to play custom music in games? Its something many games have done in the past.

I mean clearly you would have to disable the feature if you're streaming the game or uploading videos to the internet, but for personal use I don't think there'd be any issues.

nintendo probably doesn't want other companies constantly complaining to them about random streamers putting their music in smash bros. music companies are really anal about copyright.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

break the targets return

That's impossible, you're a mad man, no way, fake as hell

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Miis are simple, have the user see their own Miis and their friends but strangers use generic miis.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Historically, Miis based on third party IP’s haven’t been an issue, so I’m going to go with it being based on the balance.

Examples of that are Mario Kart Wii / 7 / 8 / 8DX, Check Mii Out Channel, Wii Sports Resort (which can use random Miis from Check Mii Out Channel to replace NPC’s,) Miitopia downloading random Miis, Spotpass in Pokemon Rumble World, ect.

Those were also licensed to be used(the Mii costumes, I mean). But that's still the reasoning Sakurai went with. The balance factor is coincidental and wasn't within his official reasoning. It was purely legal issues they wanted to avoid.

What I always found odd about the use of Mii Fighters online is that you could always see the mii attached to your opponent's NNID, you just couldn't fight them. Not to mention that people were able to use Miis online in Mario Kart.

Are we sure it wasn't just balance issues?

Yes, balance issues were not mentioned at all by Sakurai over his decision. It was entirely about Miis using inappropriate stuff. Keep in mind this was how Sakurai chose to run the actual game's design. Not Nintendo. Different choices.

I still feel like that was terribly mishandled. The simplest solution would've been to allow their default moveset and only allow the preset Miis to be used. I'm still not quite sure why the dev team didn't do that.

It had nothing to do with the balance issues specifically. That was a mere coincidence. I did write that poorly, I admit. It was entirely about Sakurai worrying about using an actor's likeness, inappropriate Mii faces, or using a characters' likeness. Keep in mind he doesn't want to get used for allowing it where anyone could see it. With Friends guarantees they agreed upon it beforehand(or ideally it does). It makes sense.

 

[MBRedboy31]

What I always found odd about the use of Mii Fighters online is that you could always see the mii attached to your opponent's NNID, you just couldn't fight them. Not to mention that people were able to use Miis online in Mario Kart.

Are we sure it wasn't just balance issues?

You could also fully use Miis online in automatically generated Regular Tournaments on Wii U that also allowed customs, custom designs and everything. So, Miis being banned from With Anyone seems to be tied to customs also being banned, since the one place where you could use customs With Anyone also allowed custom Miis.

 

[RandomAce]

Here is a topic: Do you think Sakurai planned a substantial list of unique newcomers for Ultimate's first project plan like he did for Brawl and Smash 4, creating moveset concepts for every newcomer (aside from the Pokemon newcomer that is decided later), cutting down as time goes on if work on the newcomer goes unifinished (like what nearly happened with Bowser Jr., or the forbidden 7 that got cut due to Sonic and Susbpace Emissary)? Obviously veterans took priority over newcomers this time, as stated by Sakurai with it being his primary goal. Do you think he would take a different approach and only design less than 10 unique newcomers with moveset concepts in favor of veterans?

I think Sakurai has a lot of newcomer ideas he would like to implement, and I think he will development in the same approach as the previous two games. How big would the priority list actually is? Since Sakurai re-used the engine for Smash 4 to Ultimate to get all 58 characters back, character development priority list may been just focused on cut veterans and unique newcomers, which could open opportunities to develop and finish more unique newcomers Sakurai wants to implement than expected. Do you think the development of cut veterans would stand a major way against developing more unique newcomers? Or would they not intrude much because they already have a moveset developed for them?

Like, a few may have already been fully or half-way implemented previously in Smash 4's base game like Pokemon Trainer and Ice Climbers to easily port over for future reference (Like Ultimate), possibly cutting down the remaining work to just Snake, Wolf, Young Link, and Pichu. Sakurai might consider these veterans big enough work as a unique newcomer to cut down the full amount he could implement, possibly limiting the newcomer count from being able to finish 15+ unique newcomers to a measly 9-11 unique newcomers for Ultimate. For my stance on the matter, I do not think getting the remaining veterans will be a major obstacle. I think Sakurai will get a 100+ staff huge development team that will get him to implement all of his unique newcomer ideas.

That is assuming, a Subspace-like mode does not happen (Or if development for a story mode goes smoothly, fixing the mistakes that halted character development in Brawl to a large degree). Personally, I think the idea of Sakurai not at least planning 10+ unique newcomers for the project plan, with only planning a few is very unlikely, unless DLC is part of the original project plan that allows him to develop the remaining unique newcomer ideas, should game balance and the new big mode be considered major enough obstacles to Sakurai (alongside possible character development cuts due to time). Unless, Sakurai isn't thinking about DLC focusing on base game development before anything else. But what do you think?

I'm hoping that if this was the case, Sakurai will go back and finish them for DLC.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I'm hoping that if this was the case, Sakurai will go back and finish them for DLC.

I'd expect that DLC to be free then... assuming he planned it for base...
Take notes, Capcom

OCT-30-7amPT/10amET/11pmJST
Skull Kid character reveal
2 new echo
break the targets/ board platforms return
new music tracks from mega man and sonic series
2 new stages
new trophy trading system

If you are posting a fake leak, please get out...

 

[Will]

OCT-30-7amPT/10amET/11pmJST
Skull Kid character reveal
2 new echo
break the targets/ board platforms return
new music tracks from mega man and sonic series
2 new stages
new trophy trading system

You got what you wanted. Now shoo.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Yes, balance issues were not mentioned at all by Sakurai over his decision. It was entirely about Miis using inappropriate stuff. Keep in mind this was how Sakurai chose to run the actual game's design. Not Nintendo. Different choices.

Is that it? That's still a really odd reason to bar them, especially considering that, as I mentioned, you could still see a stranger's mii in the lobby. Not to mention that it contradicts with this;

You could also fully use Miis online in automatically generated Regular Tournaments on Wii U that also allowed customs, custom designs and everything. So, Miis being banned from With Anyone seems to be tied to customs also being banned, since the one place where you could use customs With Anyone also allowed custom Miis.

Maybe Sakurai just gave that answer because it was easier to explain?
Or maybe he had a change of heart?

 

[Deleted member]

How do people here feel about customs being gone? TBH while I loved the concept, I'm very glad they seem to be scrapped. I always felt they were terribly implemented in Smash 4 in both viability and especially unlock method, and I honestly think dev time would be better spent somewhere else. To each their own, though: I'm sure there were people who did like them.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I'd expect that DLC to be free then... assuming he planned it for base...
Take notes, Capcom

The mark up for DLC is based on extra work done beyond what they did for the base game. Even if they planned them for base, but didn't end up doing them, that doesn't mean they'll be free.

Also, Sakurai/Nintendo have absolutely no history of giving their Smash DLC for free

 

[RandomAce]

I'd expect that DLC to be free then... assuming he planned it for base...
Take notes, Capcom

They probably wouldn't.

With all the effort and value the base game has, they are probably going to charge you for those characters since they needed to program and spent time on them to get them fully running after finishing the base game. I'm only hoping that this doesn't prevent any characters from making it becasue of that.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

How do people here feel about customs being gone? TBH while I loved the concept, I'm very glad they seem to be scrapped. I always felt they were terribly implemented in Smash 4 in both viability and especially unlock method, and I honestly think dev time would be better spent somewhere else. To each their own, though: I'm sure there were people who did like them.

They seemed neat, but I won't miss them.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

How do people here feel about customs being gone? TBH while I loved the concept, I'm very glad they seem to be scrapped. I always felt they were terribly implemented in Smash 4 in both viability and especially unlock method, and I honestly think dev time would be better spent somewhere else. To each their own, though: I'm sure there were people who did like them.

I thought they were kinda pointless and hindered Palutena, as she had a generic set of standard specials.

 

[Iridium]

I still need to see the Stage Builder come back so I can assure myself that I can do this.

 

[ZephyrZ]

How do people here feel about customs being gone? TBH while I loved the concept, I'm very glad they seem to be scrapped. I always felt they were terribly implemented in Smash 4 in both viability and especially unlock method, and I honestly think dev time would be better spent somewhere else. To each their own, though: I'm sure there were people who did like them.

The roster is pushing around 70 unique characters and each of them would have 12 more unique customs attached. That would be roughly 840 more moves to balance. Yikes. There's a very good reason why Sakurai didn't want to release balance patches for customs in Smash 4.

I thought they were a kind of fun feature but far from worth the effort they required to create.

 

[Idon]

How do people here feel about customs being gone? TBH while I loved the concept, I'm very glad they seem to be scrapped. I always felt they were terribly implemented in Smash 4 in both viability and especially unlock method, and I honestly think dev time would be better spent somewhere else. To each their own, though: I'm sure there were people who did like them.

Good.
They were a balancing nightmare and I would've just preferred the best of those moves gotten used instead of wasting time trying to balance 12 special moves for each character.
Plus, they were a huge pain in the ass to even get, so I'm especially glad that's out.

Then again, I have a lot of things I would consider a "waste of dev time"

 

[BluePikmin11]

They probably wouldn't.

With all the effort and value the base game has, they are probably going to charge you for those characters since they needed to program and spent time on them to get them fully running after finishing the base game. I'm only hoping that this doesn't prevent any characters from making it becasue of that.

Maybe they will be priced, depending on how close those unique newcomers were finished. I kinda agree with Smashing Ramen here.

I think Sakurai will charge on stuff that he has planned past the base game.

 

[Noipoi]

I never cared about customs.
It was an interesting idea, but I won't miss them.

 

[Untouch]

How do people here feel about customs being gone? TBH while I loved the concept, I'm very glad they seem to be scrapped. I always felt they were terribly implemented in Smash 4 in both viability and especially unlock method, and I honestly think dev time would be better spent somewhere else. To each their own, though: I'm sure there were people who did like them.

If they weren't such a total mess I'd feel bad but the implementation in Smash 4 was lacking in almost every way.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Is that it? That's still a really odd reason to bar them, especially considering that, as I mentioned, you could still see a stranger's mii in the lobby. Not to mention that it contradicts with this;


Maybe Sakurai just gave that answer because it was easier to explain?
Or maybe he had a change of heart?

Official reasoning definitely is the Character's Likeness factor. You also have to think of it like this; Sakurai cannot see everything coming to begin with. So he probably didn't think that one through. For instance, he literally forgot to put the Newcomer tag on Dark Pit's own character page. He isn't perfect.

It seems ridiculous to overlook, and I don't doubt that customs could be a factor, but there's no evidence it is one for sure. It makes a lot of sense to be a factor. I thought it was too, but then I read the statement. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't mention it because it would make the stigma against customs worse than it was. Why knock down your idea essentially?

That said, I'm not against a default moveset having been used for a With Anyone version, but they also have more factors than customs, so that could be part of it. Custom moves are one thing. However, there's a ton of different weights, which also means that they are highly unbalanced in a mode like that. No two will play alike even with 1111 or 2222 or 3333, because they're different weights and shapes. Thus, it's even harder to throw in. So that might be more what Sakurai was thinking of balance-wise for them, not customs alone.

 

[MBRedboy31]

How do people here feel about customs being gone? TBH while I loved the concept, I'm very glad they seem to be scrapped. I always felt they were terribly implemented in Smash 4 in both viability and especially unlock method, and I honestly think dev time would be better spent somewhere else. To each their own, though: I'm sure there were people who did like them.

They were a very cool idea, but, as everyone else mentioned, they were very poorly implemented, not just in the unlock method, but in the way you had to go back to the customs menu to assign them. Being able to set them from the CSS would be vastly more convenient for both casual and competitive play. As a result of those, it's hard to really miss them as we barely got to try them.

I do wonder if something vaguely similar to equipment is coming back, though; have we figured out what "Custom Balance" in Ultimate's match rules does? The idea of being able to alter a character's archetype by tweaking their values is a cool idea, it just needs to be slightly better balanced (in Smash 4, equipment generally resulted in a net positive, so you just tended to end up with a bunch of power creep. Plus, good luck spacing anything when your character has too much speed stat in Smash 4, it's almost a permanent Bunny Hood, ahaha... )

 

[ZephyrZ]

Maybe they will be priced, depending on how close those unique newcomers were finished. I kinda agree with Smashing Ramen here.

I think Sakurai will charge on stuff that he has planned past the base game.

I'll imagine they'll probably stick with standardized pricing for simplicity's sake. But regardless, selling content you couldn't finish on time is very different and far less shady then selling on-disc DLC, so I wouldn't complain. It's either get them as DLC or don't get them at all anyway.

Besides, we won't even know how close they actually were to finished anyway. Maybe they were scrapped why still in the early stages of game development.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

And thanks to everyone who stopped by the booth to try Super #SmashBrosUltimate! We hope you’re all excited for the game’s release on 12/7! 🔥 pic.twitter.com/3sCxhT3ci2

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) October 7, 2018

yeah nope doesn't sound like any kind of announcement is happening

That was my first thought. On the other hand they did say to tune in, so that could be something.

I'm leaning towards no announcment, but there's a bit of optimism for ya'll. We'll know soon enough anyway.

 

[Will]

I was a little disappointed DLC characters didn't get custom moves. It's a shame that they only ended up being an advertisement for Mii characters. Now I want Miis to actually have their own unique moveset instead this template to use (unless we get mii ****ing wizard).

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

I don’t think we’ll be getting a Smash Direct this week but I bet we might get it sometime between Oct. 31st or Nov. 1st

Part of me actually hopes that such a direct would be on November 6th, if only to heighten the chance that a certain leak involving Phoenix Wright is legit.

 

[RandomAce]

Sort of question.

If we do get the remaining ATs, do you think that some of the ones that were cut were planned to be fighters and might be worked on later? Like, let's say Saki wasn't an AT this time despite appearing in two games and would work with the changes to ATs, do you think that he might've been a fighter this time?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Sakurai doesn't have full power over what gets charged and how much. Nintendo does.

Unless it's a special thing like, "Thanks for subscribing to Switch online!", we're paying for stages and characters.

 

[Will]

On the other hand they did say to tune in, so that could be something.

They didn't say "tune in" ambiguously like it was foreshadowing an announcement. They said "tune in to see which players rise to the top", which specifically meant "hey, come up to see who wins", not "hey, keep following for something special and secret uwu" or something.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Sort of question.

If we do get the remaining ATs, do you think that some of the ones that were cut were planned to be fighters and might be worked on later? Like, let's say Saki wasn't an AT this time despite appearing in two games and would work with the changes to ATs, do you think that he might've been a fighter this time?

I kind of doubt that Saki is gonna be a fighter...
Especially when two other Nintendo franchises are kinda in line first when it comes to representation...
They're Golden Sun and Rhythm Heaven in case you weren't aware...

 

[AlphaSSB]

Here is a topic: Do you think Sakurai planned a substantial list of unique newcomers for Ultimate's first project plan like he did for Brawl and Smash 4, creating moveset concepts for every newcomer (aside from the Pokemon newcomer that is decided later), cutting down as time goes on if work on the newcomer goes unifinished (like what nearly happened with Bowser Jr., or the forbidden 7 that got cut due to Sonic and Susbpace Emissary)? Obviously veterans took priority over newcomers this time, as stated by Sakurai with it being his primary goal. Do you think he would take a different approach and only design less than 10 unique newcomers with moveset concepts in favor of veterans?

I think Sakurai has a lot of newcomer ideas he would like to implement, and I think he will development in the same approach as the previous two games. How big would the priority list actually is? Since Sakurai re-used the engine for Smash 4 to Ultimate to get all 58 characters back, character development priority list may been just focused on cut veterans and unique newcomers, which could open opportunities to develop and finish more unique newcomers Sakurai wants to implement than expected. Do you think the development of cut veterans would stand a major way against developing more unique newcomers? Or would they not intrude much because they already have a moveset developed for them?

Like, a few may have already been fully or half-way implemented previously in Smash 4's base game like Pokemon Trainer and Ice Climbers to easily port over for future reference (Like Ultimate), possibly cutting down the remaining work to just Snake, Wolf, Young Link, and Pichu. Sakurai might consider these veterans big enough work as a unique newcomer to cut down the full amount he could implement, possibly limiting the newcomer count from being able to finish 15+ unique newcomers to a measly 9-11 unique newcomers for Ultimate. For my stance on the matter, I do not think getting the remaining veterans will be a major obstacle. I think Sakurai will get a 100+ staff huge development team that will get him to implement all of his unique newcomer ideas.

That is assuming, a Subspace-like mode does not happen (Or if development for a story mode goes smoothly, fixing the mistakes that halted character development in Brawl to a large degree). Personally, I think the idea of Sakurai not at least planning 10+ unique newcomers for the project plan, with only planning a few is very unlikely, unless DLC is part of the original project plan that allows him to develop the remaining unique newcomer ideas, should game balance and the new big mode be considered major enough obstacles to Sakurai (alongside possible character development cuts due to time). Unless, Sakurai isn't thinking about DLC focusing on base game development before anything else. But what do you think?

Well, we know that he had the idea of bringing back all the veterans from the beginning, and I think its likely he took their development time into account when he was making a shortlist for unique newcomers. So I wouldn't be surprised if the final shortlist for unique newcomers was around 10-20, with a mix or fan-favorites from the ballot, and some character picks of his own. This wouldn't include clone fighters of course, which I believe he likely had a separate shortlist for.

I give it that much range because I think it'd likely consist of our current unique newcomers, newcomers that didn't make it through development, and some low-priority leftover newcomers. The newcomers that went untouched during development could be potential DLC, as well as any specific newcomer choices he had pegged as DLC from the beginning.

Wouldn't be surprised if some of the newcomer picks that didn't make it through development ended up being made into some of the Assist Trophies we've seen, seeing as many Assist Trophies are even more player-like than before, with multiple attacks and even dodges. Makes sense knowing Sakurai, as he wouldn't want the effort to go to waste, but he's not the type to reserve content at launch and release it later. Although I'd kill for him to promote some Assist Trophies into playable characters through DLC.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

if we don't get a lucina/robin esc reveal coming today doesn't mean it wont happen this week

it could be a friday the trailer airs for all we know

 

[Sharkarat]

I thought they were kinda pointless and hindered Palutena, as she had a generic set of standard specials.

I'm still really disappointed they didn't keep Super speed as her Side Special.

Edit: Would also have preffered Jump Glide on Up Special, but Warp is okay enough.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm honestly not quite sure wha the project was planned to be like. Remember, he specifically mentioned how people were bamboozled when they were in a meeting and he said, "I want to bring back every Smash character ever". Sakurai and his team probably have more of an idea of how much time can be allotted per item in the game, so they could have potentially planned for 10-20 unique fighters, but I'm not so sure about that. That would mean they grossly underestimated the amount of time it would take to create the characters, and that would be an underestimation by a team that has made 5 Smash games already.

They might have had a pool of 20 to choose from, but I think they absolutely planned 10 max. There's too many indicators that bringing every character back was the goal at the beginning and is the focus of this game in general.