Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[Dreamaholic]

I tried it and it was really fun but I noticed that most uptilts are too strong with heavy gravity.
I thought why not make it fast though? So that's what I did and I made a small combo montage with these settings.
Well, I'm not used to the speed and the gravity and I didn't want to put much time into it so most combos in there are pretty spontanious. I hope you like it anyway.

 

[Muro]

I tried it and it was really fun but I noticed that most uptilts are too strong with heavy gravity.
I thought why not make it fast though? So that's what I did and I made a small combo montage with these settings.
Well, I'm not used to the speed and the gravity and I didn't want to put much time into it so most combos in there are pretty spontanious.

damn dude, your video is really good quality. Thanks a lot. I don't really like fast mode, but this is still a showing of SLHG, just fast forwarded lol. I think SDI will counter the up tilts, and for most you need to be caught with really bad spacing, like your characters need to be almost on top of each other. It also only works in a weird range of percents. In really low percents for both the defending player will be able to land and shield between hits. In high percent to the attacker, rage starts increasing your knockback and they don't link. Btw what build did you use?

 

[Dreamaholic]

Just Smooth Landing and some stat changes to balance it out. (I messed up with Marth though and he's way too fast in the video lol)
Because up tilts are too good you could increase the knockback ratio right?

However it's really sad that you can't play online like that, right?
I have an idea what kind of badges could be interesting to make it possible, also to make the game have a more aggressive playstyle:

Shield DegeneratorWeakened shield regenerationRecharge your shield more slowly.

Tough EdgeHarder edge grabsDecreased range for grabbing stage edges.

Smooth LanderReduced landing impactStart moving again more quickly after landing.

Anchor Jump 1.4x speed when falling.

Antileap 0.8x jump height.

Lo-Jump 0.7x jump height from the ground.

Hard BrakerImproved braking abilityStop on a dime even when dashing.

Imperfect ShieldNo perfect shieldOnly get a normal shield no matter how good your timing is.

Moon LauncherImproved launch ability1.3x attack power when launching enemies upward.

But I guess It'd be a pain to collect all of those and without ending up with some stat too high.

 

[Muro]

Because up tilts are too good you could increase the knockback ratio right?

yeah I think that should work. Build 1 and 3 already have increased knockback though, maybe that helps with tilts. I don't really have someone to test it with.

However it's really sad that you can't play online like that, right?

yup, It's really the biggest drawback as far as I can tell :/

 

[Balgorxz]

well you can play online if you have anchor badges, the only way to get them is to grind in master orders with 10 sec invicibility and home run bat and after turn 20 you get rare equipment like that, It's even more rare than smooth lander considering I have like 8 smooth landers and only one anchor.

 

[Muro]

Yeah but nerfed recoveries are a major feature of heavy gravity, I wouldn't want it gone. On the topic of using other equipment, remember there's only 3 slots, so there's only a max 3 effects you can get.

From @ Dreamaholic 's post I think the most interesting are: tough edge, imperfect shield, shield degenerator and smooth lander.

 

[Balgorxz]

Yeah but nerfed recoveries are a major feature of heavy gravity, I wouldn't want it gone. On the topic of using other equipment, remember there's only 3 slots, so there's only a max 3 effects you can get.

From @ Dreamaholic 's post I think the most interesting are: tough edge, imperfect shield, shield degenerator and smooth lander.

talking about recoveries falco is insanely good in SLHG because he has one of the best edeguard games since his second jump is so good and his recovery barely gets touched.
anyways the 3 effect that would be better imo are shield degenerator,imperfect shield, smooth lander and the one that makes you stop you dash instantly.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Just updating everyone about my efforts to try and get the feel of HG/SL in regular smash. Right now I'm at +20A/-22D/+25S at 0.7x knockback. It's pure craziness. I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys HG/SL.

 

[Balgorxz]

got anchor jump equipments today in crazy orders now I can test true combos on training with sword fighting characters, also wohoo SLHG in online.

anyways

true combos in training mode
Marth

fair+jab
dair(spike)+uair
dair+fsmash (+45%)
uair+fair (+45%)
dair+jab true (+30%)
uair+nair (+25%)
bair+jab (+10%)
nair+ftilt
uthrow+upb
dthrow+upb
bait+ftilt(20%)
fast fall dair+nair (80%+)
bair+fair true combo can lead to ken combo
fastfall uair to ground+uair
uair+bair(+30%)
dair+utilt (at 37%)
uair+ntilt
uair+ftilt
fair+up dancing blade (at 25%)
ff fair+upb
last swing of uair+upb
fastfall dair+usmash
reverse uair+dsmash (free tipper) at 34%
forward uair +dsmash at 23%
reverse uair+dair
best combo IMO fastfall uair + nair + fair
most of these are using fastfall


uair+dancing blade combo (5 combo guaranteed at low %)

0% combos
fair+ftilt (free 26%) after this you can start chaining combos above
uair+jab (free 22%)
bair+jab (17%)
uair+grab+dthrow+uair(31%)
you can chain most of these depending on how they DI

also crescent slash can be a finishing move that is a true comboh after these chains

gonna analyze all sword characters
Metaknight

some of these only work at low % and others are global
dthrow+upb
fair+fitl
uair+usmash
uair+filt
uair+jab
dair+dtilt
fastfall fair + dsmash
dair+smash
bair+filt
dair+usmash
utilt+dtilt
dair+filt

utilt+nair
utilt+jab
utilt+uair
dash attack+nair
dash attack+usmash
dash attack+uair+upb
dash attack+fair
dash attack+custom neutral b
dash attack+utilt+utilt
bair (first hit only)+nair
bair+dash attack+nair
bair+dash attack+usmash
bair+dash attack+fair
bair+dash attack+uair+upb (45% damage true combo, extremely hard to pull off even more if they are DIng)

Ike

3 chains of these = dead, his recovery is really bad though.
nair+jab
uair+utilt
uair+jab+grab
dair (spike)+jab
dthrow+aether
dthrow+usmash
dthrow+utilt
uthrow+utilt
reverse nair+bair(how is this even allowed)
reverse nair (end of swing)+ ftilt
ff nair+utilt (30%+)
ff nair+fair (30%+)
ff nair+aether (30%+)
ff nair+bair
ff nair+dtilt
ff uair reverse(3rd hit) + ftilt
ff uair reverse(3rd hit) + quick draw
ff uair (1st hit) + bair
fair to jab (+10%)
fair to dtilt (+15%)
fair to ftilt angled down (+15%)
nair+grab+upthrow+aether (15%)
nair+uair
sh ff nair+nair
usmash+jab on fast fallers
nair+dsmash
dtilt+utilt

Shulk

shulk can fly through the stage throwing strings that are like 2 frames of being true combos
anyways, true combos

neutral mode

nair+jab
uair+utilt
nair+dtilt
nair+utilt
nair+ftilt
uair+jab
nair+fair
nair+nair is not a true combo but damn its like it was actually one
nair+tilt+airslash

 

[Muro]

talking about recoveries falco is insanely good in SLHG because he has one of the best edeguard games since his second jump is so good and his recovery barely gets touched.
anyways the 3 effect that would be better imo are shield degenerator,imperfect shield, smooth lander and the one that makes you stop you dash instantly.

yeah, his bair is also very good. Actually all his aerials except the dair feel good to use and like you said, his double jump is very high. I enjoyed playing him more than I thought I would. You should try fox, he's even better I think. You can run offstage shine > double jump > nair and still make it back.

 

[Balgorxz]

yeah, his bair is also very good. Actually all his aerials except the dair feel good to use and like you said, his double jump is very high. I enjoyed playing him more than I thought I would. You should try fox, he's even better I think. You can run offstage shine > double jump > nair and still make it back.

I wish I could test spacies bu they don't use sword, time to lab some shulk now.

 

[Muro]

Wii fit trainer seems to be another character that benefits a lot. She's got good aerials and being so floaty her fall speed seems decent in heavy gravity. She can go deep offstage without worries.

Pacman is also buffed I think, he's also got 2 recovery moves (side-b and up-b) and really quick aerials. Characters with ****ty grabs seem to benefit in general because now there's more ways to attack shields.

 

[HalfBakedHarry]

Wow, I've been trying to advocate for this type of gameplay ever since I found Smooth Landing Equipment in the 3ds version. I even attempted to document all of what I called 'standardized equipment' that was universal to everybody through challenges by myself. I'm really happy to have found the other half dozen people who enjoy this game mode. I don't understand why people think I sound crazy when I ask to play some Smooth Lander matches. Is this something we can play together online or is SLHG not an option for online play? I don't think I can convince anybody in my community to join me although since Custom Moves have finally been embraced anything could happen haha.

 

[Muro]

@ HalfBakedHarry People will always defend the status quo just because, but I believe when they do try it out they'll end up liking it.

Unfortunately heavy gravity (and special smash as a whole) is not available in online mode, I'd be playing it like crazy if it was. However if you only want smooth lander you can play with it online.

Btw mario seems very good in SLHG, and the FLUDD actually does something lol.

 

[Balgorxz]

@ HalfBakedHarry People will always defend the status quo just because, but I believe when they do try it out they'll end up liking it.

Unfortunately heavy gravity (and special smash as a whole) is not available in online mode, I'd be playing it like crazy if it was. However if you only want smooth lander you can play with it online.

Btw mario seems very good in SLHG, and the FLUDD actually does something lol.

you can get the anchor badge to emulate heavy gravity by playing crazy orders though

 

[Muro]

you can get the anchor badge to emulate heavy gravity by playing crazy orders though

I'd like to check it out but I'm really not a big fan of grinding for badges. If I get lucky and end up unlocking it I'll try it.

 

[Jugoken]

I tried it and it was really fun but I noticed that most uptilts are too strong with heavy gravity.
I thought why not make it fast though? So that's what I did and I made a small combo montage with these settings.
Well, I'm not used to the speed and the gravity and I didn't want to put much time into it so most combos in there are pretty spontanious. I hope you like it anyway.

SUPER NICE VIDEO!! Dude is this fast and heavy smash only or did you add SmoothLand to the mix?

 

[SpandexBullets]

got anchor jump equipments today in crazy orders now I can test true combos on training with sword fighting characters, also wohoo SLHG in online.

anyways

true combos in training mode
Marth

fair+jab
dair(spike)+uair
dair+fsmash (+45%)
uair+fair (+45%)
dair+jab true (+30%)
uair+nair (+25%)
bair+jab (+10%)
nair+ftilt
uthrow+upb
dthrow+upb
bait+ftilt(20%)
fast fall dair+nair (80%+)
bair+fair true combo can lead to ken combo
fastfall uair to ground+uair
uair+bair(+30%)
dair+utilt (at 37%)
uair+ntilt
uair+ftilt
fair+up dancing blade (at 25%)
ff fair+upb
last swing of uair+upb
fastfall dair+usmash
reverse uair+dsmash (free tipper) at 34%
forward uair +dsmash at 23%
reverse uair+dair
best combo IMO fastfall uair + nair + fair
most of these are using fastfall


uair+dancing blade combo (5 combo guaranteed at low %)

0% combos
fair+ftilt (free 26%) after this you can start chaining combos above
uair+jab (free 22%)
bair+jab (17%)
uair+grab+dthrow+uair(31%)
you can chain most of these depending on how they DI

also crescent slash can be a finishing move that is a true comboh after these chains

gonna analyze all sword characters
Metaknight

some of these only work at low % and others are global
dthrow+upb
fair+fitl
uair+usmash
uair+filt
uair+jab
dair+dtilt
fastfall fair + dsmash
dair+smash
bair+filt
dair+usmash
utilt+dtilt
dair+filt

utilt+nair
utilt+jab
utilt+uair
dash attack+nair
dash attack+usmash
dash attack+uair+upb
dash attack+fair
dash attack+custom neutral b
dash attack+utilt+utilt
bair (first hit only)+nair
bair+dash attack+nair
bair+dash attack+usmash
bair+dash attack+fair
bair+dash attack+uair+upb (45% damage true combo, extremely hard to pull off even more if they are DIng)

Ike

3 chains of these = dead, his recovery is really bad though.
nair+jab
uair+utilt
uair+jab+grab
dair (spike)+jab
dthrow+aether
dthrow+usmash
dthrow+utilt
uthrow+utilt
reverse nair+bair(how is this even allowed)
reverse nair (end of swing)+ ftilt
ff nair+utilt (30%+)
ff nair+fair (30%+)
ff nair+aether (30%+)
ff nair+bair
ff nair+dtilt
ff uair reverse(3rd hit) + ftilt
ff uair reverse(3rd hit) + quick draw
ff uair (1st hit) + bair
fair to jab (+10%)
fair to dtilt (+15%)
fair to ftilt angled down (+15%)
nair+grab+upthrow+aether (15%)
nair+uair
sh ff nair+nair
usmash+jab on fast fallers
nair+dsmash
dtilt+utilt

Shulk

shulk can fly through the stage throwing strings that are like 2 frames of being true combos
anyways, true combos

neutral mode

nair+jab
uair+utilt
nair+dtilt
nair+utilt
nair+ftilt
uair+jab
nair+fair
nair+nair is not a true combo but damn its like it was actually one
nair+tilt+airslash

Could you...put this on film with Lucina, and whoever else you think works better with faster falling?
I need to see it's effects - i'm sorry, bit i'd love to see how it works alongside a metal character (fall speed) and the unaltered character (fall speed again).
I don't need capture card footage, filmed on a phone or external camera would be good enough.
Better yet, if you have an Iphone 5/6, you could use slow motion video on it.

 

[Balgorxz]

Could you...put this on film with Lucina, and whoever else you think works better with faster falling?
I need to see it's effects - i'm sorry, bit i'd love to see how it works alongside a metal character (fall speed) and the unaltered character (fall speed again).
I don't need capture card footage, filmed on a phone or external camera would be good enough.
Better yet, if you have an Iphone 5/6, you could use slow motion video on it.

getting an Ipad next week and I'll do a video about it so far from all sword character the one who gets more benefits by far is Ike since he gets a lot of easy true combo that deal a lot of damage and some of them end in grabs with SLHG, lucina has almost the same combos than marth except the ones that involve dairs and bairs.

 

[Jugoken]

Just updating everyone about my efforts to try and get the feel of HG/SL in regular smash. Right now I'm at +20A/-22D/+25S at 0.7x knockback. It's pure craziness. I highly recommend it to anyone who enjoys HG/SL.

I'm using damage ratio 0.6x ever since I saw this, thanks bro! Now I don't need heavy gravity, but i like speed so I do this on fast smash with smooth lander equipped!

 

[micstar615]

@ Muro thanks for linking me to this thread! I grew bored of Sm4sh's defensive mechanics, this seems like a blast to play! I'm kind of surprised the rest of the community isn't showing interest in this :/ this seems much more fast paced, offensive and combo friendly than Sm4sh's original engine

 

[Muro]

@ micstar615 No worries man. Like I said in a post before, the status quo is very strong. Those who try it most likely end up liking it. It's so satisfying to be able to set up edgeguards, that's my favorite part. Even previously bad characters like wii fit trainer, lucina, zelda and game and watch now have a powerful tool to compete due to their great offstage game.

 

[micstar615]

@ micstar615 No worries man. Like I said in a post before, the status quo is very strong. Those who try it most likely end up liking it. It's so satisfying to be able to set up edgeguards, that's my favorite part. Even previously bad characters like wii fit trainer, lucina, zelda and game and watch now have a powerful tool to compete due to their great offstage game.

I'm playing right now, and I'm actually a Zelda main! I'm really impressed, it just feels much more fluid and tactical

 

[Vincent21]

Huh. Looks cool. I'm actually of a rare stroke of human who doesn't mind a read-based defensive play; it's still rewarding to play in the sense that it boils down to a mental war, and has the benefit of minimal execution barriers. I'll admit it kind of really hurts Smash 4 as a spectator's sport since all of the real decision making happens in both people's heads, but being forced to actually engagement in footsies more than like, 3 times to get a stock is a change of pace I'd been craving for a while.

Having said that, since this mode sounds like basically it's own game, it offers something different to enjoy. Strings/combos may be execution-based as opposed to decision-based, but they're still satisfying.

I feel like this, much like Melee, will end up with a super rigid tier list though, because anyone who really doesn't gain combos, as well as anyone whose recovery takes overt dips (Link is both of these things) they're basically erased from the disc, much like all the characters outside of Melee's top 8. I mean Smash 4s current, early, and undeveloped meta has current standing kings like Diddy/Shiek, for however long that lasts in these early days, but at least the tiers below them atm the super nebulous and most of the roster being at least playable means there is a lot of expected growth.

That's just an impression, though. I support the idea and implementation of this project because, as a split off from 4, this would make a great side event in order to give people looking for a solid middle ground between games a place to call home. Considering how strongly disenfranchised a lot of people feel by defensive/read based play this is actually sort of a unique way of patching things over for Smash 4 itself, since now it can offer a variety of experiences. You have standard, you have customs, you have SLHG, you have 2v2 and 4v4 for all 3 of those modes...

The more of the content in this game people purpose the more people it can bring happiness to. You get enough people sold on this and suddenly Smash 4 can be a turn-on across Brawl, Melee, and it's own fan core at once. That's just great.

The only thing that makes me sad is that for a lot of people, the tag-line reads "Smash 4, but fixed." It just kind of makes me feel how you must feel when people put this idea down or refuse to try it. Like "I have fun this way, why you gotta go and call it broken?"

 

[Muro]

Thanks for the input @ Vincent21 , I do think you're right in much of what you say. It's hard to tell how much viable/non viable characters will change places. Either way I don't thing the viable side will be reduced that much. Sm4sh also has a ton of characters anyway so even if the viable lot is not as much, I'm willing to accept it for the sake of a more enjoyable gameplay.

Also, I feel in many cases, It might be that the character sucks worse, but he already sucked enough not to see any use in tournament (like Link), so it's not a loss really.

I think you provide a great point in the "Smash 4, but fixed" mentality. That has to be a big factor for the resistance it's getting from most people. People really do take offence for different play-styles for some reason, never mind that no one is taking away regular sm4sh play, and there's not been even one side event for SLHG. Well I'm not really sure how to address it honestly. Hopefully those open minded enough will check it out, because this feels like the "between brawl and melee, with its own flavor" everyone wanted.

 

[Vincent21]

Yeah. I thought that was the best way to explain the point.

Y'all feel sad because you got this game to play how you wanted and now no one will hear you out

but the people who actually are getting what they wanted from unedited Smash 4 feel like they're being patronized for enjoying a very away-from-Melee experience, and take it personally that people find punish-based defensive play as a disease to be cured instead of the new avenue that they see for expanding character viability and creating more longer, more taxing games. Smash 4 makes a sub par spectator sport, but the fact that you have to slow-grind victories by consistently finding openings in really tight play makes them, in many's opinion, comparably as satisfying.

With this back-and-forth "one of these ways is broken" mentality where parties can't seem to understand both styles of play retain merit there is no cooperation. And a lack of cooperation will KILL a project like this; the ball is firmly in Smash 4 unedited fans' court, what with the ease-of-use a preconceived notions that come with SLHG, and so to create adoption for the game mode you can't simply stop at marketing it as "a satisfying experience for those tired/uninterested in Smash 4's defense-oriented gameplay" and instead as "A unique and individual spin on our newest and most exciting edition to the Smash franchise; think Project M but with a lot less coding and legal loopholes! A whole new game to explore, but still Smash 4 at it's core!"

It'd be a lot more marketable that way. Also my only other advice; if you're going to want to push this as a side event at.... anywhere, get a publicly available frickin powersave. No TO is going to sit down and unlock A7 on a bamiliion Wii Us. He wants one file on a thumb drive he can magic to every Wii U in the venue, or something akin to the Custom Moves project by Amazing Ampharos where the set-up can be created efficiently and with as little TO-side grinding as possible.

 

[Muro]

.

Yeah, I'm just not a marketing kind of guy. Maybe someone else can take that mantle, but for me, I'll just put the information out and whoever wants to pay attention can. Notice I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just not the right person for the job.

The part I disagree is on the power save. At least for now, there's no tournament with a bazillion entries for SLHG. The challenges themselves take 3 hammers at most, and you can get those in less time than it takes to unlock all characters. If down the line that becomes a problem (and why would it), then it's something worth considering.

 

[Vincent21]

Oh don't misunderstand. What I was saying was if you'd LIKE this event to be attenable for a tourney with a bazillion entires, you'd want to provide a custom powersave that provides the tools and builds pre-loaded up-front, because that makes said TO waaaaaaay more like to be down for hosting that game. It gives you a way to get this into more people's hands by getting rid of their excuses not to try it out.

 

[micstar615]

Edit: wrong thread lol

 

[Vincent21]

The most efficient way I see of setting this up for tourneys is to do the work, get the hammers, unlock the set, equip it to every character in custom slot 1, take that save and create a duplicate of it on something.

Then copy that save to every Wii U that is to be a part of that side event.

 

[Muro]

btw @ Vincent21 have you tried it? what do you think of it?

 

[micstar615]

The most efficient way I see of setting this up for tourneys is to do the work, get the hammers, unlock the set, equip it to every character in custom slot 1, take that save and create a duplicate of it on something.

Then copy that save to every Wii U that is to be a part of that side event.

Is it possible to duplicate a wii u game save? I've never looked into it, I do know that there are powersaves for the 3DS though.

 

[micstar615]

Sorry for the double post, I was just curious about something regarding this mode of play. Some people who are against SL have used tinkaman's post regarding hitstun and rolls against the idea and apparently that the combo gain is really just from a "placebo" effect and that a lot of the combos are doable in the vanilla mode. But everything seems much faster with the combination of HG and SL. Since I just discovered this mode last night I haven't really done much testing but most of what tinkaman said doesn't seem to apply with this mode of play. What are your guys' thoughts? I'm not a competitive player so excuse my ignorance, but if hitstun isn't increased how are the combos possible? Is it all due to the lower landing lag and gravity? Or is it really all placebo? Rolls are still effective but since lag is reduced it seems chasing is a lot easier. He also said heavy characters like Ganondorf and Charizard get nerfed with SL but they seem to be even better in this mode imo, especially if you give them Wizard's DropKick and Dragon Rush respectively.

 

[SAHunterMech]

To my knowledge, it's all about the knockback. HG reduces knockback significantly, so you can get those follow-ups that always seem to slip through one's fingers in vanilla. I think SL/HG is more fun than having extra hitstun, because it forces more decisive action, and it makes battles more intense and aggressive, as opposed to getting 'locked' in hitstun and not being able to do anything.

 

[micstar615]

To my knowledge, it's all about the knockback. HG reduces knockback significantly, so you can get those follow-ups that always seem to slip through one's fingers in vanilla. I think SL/HG is more fun than having extra hitstun, because it forces more decisive action, and it makes battles more intense and aggressive, as opposed to getting 'locked' in hitstun and not being able to do anything.

Yeah something seemed different, I noticed up throws in particular didn't send opponents as far so I figured it would be knock back related. How do you feel about rolls and defensive tactics in general? I feel like there's more offensive pressure in this mode personally, idg why people are saying this will make the game more of a "roll fest", I feel as if they haven't actually tried it.

 

[Muro]

That post is straight up BS, that's why there's a discrepancy between your experience and the conclusions he arrives to.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Yeah something seemed different, I noticed up throws in particular didn't send opponents as far so I figured it would be knock back related. How do you feel about rolls and defensive tactics in general? I feel like there's more offensive pressure in this mode personally, idg why people are saying this will make the game more of a "roll fest", I feel as if they haven't actually tried it.

I feel that way too. In his defense, he is talking about 0/0/0 smooth lander in vanilla, which isn't the greatest thing ever, since most characters still can't take advantage of Smooth Lander, but I still don't feel like it's nearly as bad as he makes it out to be. I feel like the credibility of the entire thing is questionable at best, like it's just a cleverly disguised opinion, but that doesn't stop people from just quoting it ad nauseum.

Meanwhile, with just a little tweaking, Smooth Lander works great in Heavy Gravity and Regular Gravity, and now we have potential builds for both that everyone can attain with minimal effort. It's irritating how 3/4 of the community got so close to the awesomeness, and then just gave up.

 

[micstar615]

I've actually been able to connect a down throw to a Bair....a sweet spotted Bair with Zelda in this mode. You guys don't know what this means to me

A lot of the combos in the vanilla version are far more consistent on this mode, plus the amount of new combos I'm seeing with characters is great, there's a lot more offensive pressure with heavy gravity and low lag aerials, also the lower knockback from the gravity gives more freedom for follow ups/mix ups, it's a lot of fun. Some of the defensive factors are still solid (shields are still good, rolls are still fast) but they aren't overpowered and the matches certainly don't feel defensive. Also the lower gravity has nerfed recoveries so sending someone off stage actually means something now and edge guardig seems more plausible now. Just my observations from playing this mode tonight, it's a lot of fun, I sincerely hope the community gives this a chance, alongside vanilla sm4sh.

 

[ZADD]

Anybody who says that SLHG combos are possible in Vanilla should take a look at Meta Knight.

Meta Knight in SLHG is good, very good.
But he is definitely beatable and spaceable, I dont feel the odds are stacked in any characters favor in SLHG.

I'm gonna be honest, when I play Vanilla I feel the tierlist is totally predetermined, Sakurai didn't trust us enough to have our own metagame. So he watered down smash and chose specific characters (not character types) to dominate. Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS IMO ruin the games balance. Atleast in SLHG my opponent cant just spam jab with Rosalina and win, he would have to actually combo me and have some knowledge of how smash works. If every character had a "HOO HAH" then itd be different, but only like 4 characters even have kill setups sm4sh is so incomplete.

 

[micstar615]

Some observations while playing some more with Zelda in this mode: Zelda actually has a handful of true combos in this mode, I was able to link up throw > 2-3 utilts > UAir, this was almost a 60% combo with the standard smooth lander brawn badge and the standard defence and agility badge. Nair also has a ton of utility, both the weak hit and the stronger hit can lead to follow ups due to the decreased landing lag. DThrow can combo into sweet spotted Bair at certain percents and Dtilt, Utilt and sweetspotted Dair can also lead to varying follow ups. A few of these combos are doable in vanilla version but they felt a lot more restricted there and there weren't as many mix up options I felt, in this mode there's a lot more freedom for follow ups like in melee/PM.