Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[Gatoray]

@ Muro It would be great if you could add this link to the main post on this thread. It's a chatroom to Anther's Ladder that we've made for SLHG matchmaking purposes. http://www.smashladder.com/netplay/SLHG

 

[Muro]

@ Muro It would be great if you could add this link to the main post on this thread. It's a chatroom to Anther's Ladder that we've made for SLHG matchmaking purposes. http://www.smashladder.com/netplay/SLHG

wow that's great man, gonna add it now. Thanks.

edit: done.

 

[Gatoray]

wow that's great man, gonna add it now. Thanks.

Thanks! I just tried it out with a few people. I'm a believer now. We need to get this mainstream! Like, wow.

 

[DNeon]

edited: I'd be fine with players using a distinguished better (but not broken) setup for some characters that would be really lacking otherwise (for example 2122 Ganon, Dash Swipe Bowser etc.) But what I dont want to happen is the infinite counterpick potential of having multiple choices of each character depending on the situation. That kinda downplays the smooth lander factor a lot and i feel is better reserved for Vanilla Sm4sh.

I know I'll be sounding like a broken record, but I really like the idea of seeing Zelda in this game mode (although I wouldn't consider myself good enough to be the one to do it. Would you consider her side B and down B useless enough to warrant an allowance for customs?

 

[micstar615]

I know I'll be sounding like a broken record, but I really like the idea of seeing Zelda in this game mode (although I wouldn't consider myself good enough to be the one to do it. Would you consider her side B and down B useless enough to warrant an allowance for customs?

As a Zelda main myself, I would prefer to change them. They don't make her much better but her custom Dins and phantom options are slightly less useless than the standard ones imo.

 

[WhatsInAUsername]

At first when I heard about this, I thought it was just some dumb attempt to try and melee up the game, but it's so much fun.
Tell me this mode won't gain traction when you can do such silly stuff like actually combo out of throws with Marth and Lucina, and even "shine-spike"! I'm all for this, but I feel that maybe customs, outside of up-b's that make it so characters can actually recover, maybe shouldn't be allowed, just because they are already polarizing enough without the added 'jank' that this mode could perceive to have. Really excited to see where this goes.

 

[W.A.C.]

So what's good about Heavy Gravity compared to Anchor Jump? Heavy Gravity makes recoveries go to hell and forces players to get an overwhelming amount of their kills horizontally, which considerably limits vertical kill options. Plus I might be remembering incorrectly, but doesn't Heavy Gravity hurt vertical jump height?

 

[blargh257]

At first when I heard about this, I thought it was just some dumb attempt to try and melee up the game, but it's so much fun.
Tell me this mode won't gain traction when you can do such silly stuff like actually combo out of throws with Marth and Lucina, and even "shine-spike"! I'm all for this, but I feel that maybe customs, outside of up-b's that make it so characters can actually recover, maybe shouldn't be allowed, just because they are already polarizing enough without the added 'jank' that this mode could perceive to have. Really excited to see where this goes.

Hey, I saw you in the chat room, welcome.
How on earth did you actually land a shinespike? I've never done it, unless of course you're talking about just edgeguarding with Falco's, which is significantly easier. That's still good, but if you're talking about Fox, then wow.
EDIT
@ W.A.C. Accessibility mostly. Also from what I'm told it isn't as good and depending on your perspective nerfing recoveries is a good thing because it promotes edgeguarding. There's a post earlier in this thread that goes into it a bit.

 

[WhatsInAUsername]

Hey, I saw you in the chat room, welcome.
How on earth did you actually land a shinespike? I've never done it, unless of course you're talking about just edgeguarding with Falco's, which is significantly easier. That's still good, but if you're talking about Fox, then wow.

It wasn't too hard actually. I was just messing around with someone, and they used Fox's down-b when I was at a highish percent, and bam! I was pushed offstage and couldn't recover well enough. Its a really nice punish for recovering normally on ledge.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

So what's good about Heavy Gravity compared to Anchor Jump? Heavy Gravity makes recoveries go to hell and forces players to get an overwhelming amount of their kills horizontally, which considerably limits vertical kill options. Plus I might be remembering incorrectly, but doesn't Heavy Gravity hurt vertical jump height?

We use The second build because it is universal to every system instead of farming for an anchor jump badge. Also the moonlauncher protection badge in the second build balances out vertical and horizontal kill moves again.

And yes, certain recoveries go to hell. But this makes it so that edgeguarding is actually possible so I see this as a plus.

 

[W.A.C.]

@ W.A.C. Accessibility mostly. Also from what I'm told it isn't as good and depending on your perspective nerfing recoveries is a good thing because it promotes edgeguarding. There's a post earlier in this thread that goes into it a bit.

Wrecking some of the recoveries ruins the viability of certain characters because it negatively affects only specific recoveries.

And yes, certain recoveries go to hell. But this makes it so that edgeguarding is actually possible so I see this as a plus.

How was edge guarding not previously possible? My mains are Diddy Kong and Meta Knight. Diddy Kong can edge guard just fine and Meta Knight thrives off of his ability to edge guard. If a character can spike off stage, they can edge guard. It's certainly harder to edge guard in this game because of the changes to the ledge mechanics and improved recoveries, but it encourages way more fighting off stage and makes getting those gimps far more rewarding. Some of the fighting off stage in this money match between two very skilled players was just beyond hype. I love how this game's recoveries are considerably better than the ones in previous games (except lol Brawl Meta Knight).

 

[Gatoray]

One thing you have to consider @ W.A.C. is that we're not trying to replace vanilla smash mode. We know that vanilla smash will always be around and will always have a competitive following. What we're trying to do is bring this mode that we have created to life and possibly gain a competitive following because we believe in its potential.

I think what Hobbes was trying to say about edge guarding is that since recoveries are nerfed, the path to the stage becomes more linear and easier to kill them when they're off stage in general. Not to say it wasn't already easy, but the recoveries feel a lot like Brawl recoveries.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Well what I meant was edgeguarding is definitely easier in this mode. One good setup and one well timed hit is enough to send someone careening to the shadowrealm.

But the worse recoveries generally only screws over 1 person compared to others, and thats Sonic. But Sonic is still viable with his speed and great on stage game. The real focus of this mode was to add in more aggressive play with combos and tech chases, and it achieves that very well.

The way I see, look more at what this mode gives instead of what it takes away.

 

[ZADD]

Heavy Gravity makes recoveries go to hell and forces players to get an overwhelming amount of their kills horizontally

I don't agree with you, i think your statements seem un-acquainted with how this mode really affects things.The only character that it really affects after all things considered is Sonic, and he's still really good with pivot cancels and grab baits. Like Hobbes said, please don't focus on what this game mode hinders, and instead pay attention to what it brings. That's why we like it, and that's why we believe others will like it too. It is aggressive and rewarding, and most of all it plays differently than sm4sh, while maintaing core fundamentals throughout.

 

[W.A.C.]

"The way I see, look more at what this mode gives instead of what it takes away."
"please don't focus on what this game mode hinders, and instead pay attention to what it brings."

That is a really bad philosophy when trying to come up with a different way to play this game competitively utilizing the additional options this game has to offer. Heavy Gravity makes a lot of aspects to this game considerably worse. Melee, Project M, and Smash 4 with Smooth Lander feels a lot better than Heavy Gravity - Smooth Lander. When looking for other ways to make the game more combo friendly and faster paced without making other aspects to the game much worse, Anchor Jump sounds a lot better. I haven't been able to use Pro Glider or Anchor Jump yet, but Smooth Lander - Pro Glider - Anchor Jump sounds considerably more fun than Heavy Gravity - Smooth Lander. Heavy Gravity just flat out sucks. It makes everyone feel like they're carrying a bucket of rocks on them.

 

[WhatsInAUsername]

"The way I see, look more at what this mode gives instead of what it takes away."
"please don't focus on what this game mode hinders, and instead pay attention to what it brings."

That is a really bad philosophy when trying to come up with a different way to play this game competitively utilizing the additional options this game has to offer. Heavy Gravity makes a lot of aspects to this game considerably worse. Melee, Project M, and Smash 4 with Smooth Lander feels a lot better than Heavy Gravity - Smooth Lander. When looking for other ways to make the game more combo friendly and faster paced without making other aspects to the game much worse, Anchor Jump sounds a lot better. I haven't been able to use Pro Glider or Anchor Jump yet, but Smooth Lander - Pro Glider - Anchor Jump sounds considerably more fun than Heavy Gravity - Smooth Lander. Heavy Gravity just flat out sucks. It makes everyone feel like they're carrying a bucket of rocks on them.

The thing is, Anchor jump isn't a standard custom for everyone, you'd have to hunt for it. Everyone has the ability to go get some challenges done, by hammer or otherwise, but nobody wants to wait through the RNG fest that is equipment rewards. And imo, Heavy Gravity feels very good, it makes sure your tech game is on point, and that you know how to recover smart. Sonic is screwed over in this version, sure, but he gets an insane juggle game onstage. Really, this mode needs work to get accepted as it is, and something that's completely random vs. just setting up Heavy Gravity seems like the smarter and easier choice.

 

[micstar615]

With customs in mind, the only character with a really bad recovery is Sonic. There's also Mac but he has a bad recovery in vanilla too.

 

[micstar615]

"The way I see, look more at what this mode gives instead of what it takes away."
"please don't focus on what this game mode hinders, and instead pay attention to what it brings."

That is a really bad philosophy when trying to come up with a different way to play this game competitively utilizing the additional options this game has to offer. Heavy Gravity makes a lot of aspects to this game considerably worse. Melee, Project M, and Smash 4 with Smooth Lander feels a lot better than Heavy Gravity - Smooth Lander. When looking for other ways to make the game more combo friendly and faster paced without making other aspects to the game much worse, Anchor Jump sounds a lot better. I haven't been able to use Pro Glider or Anchor Jump yet, but Smooth Lander - Pro Glider - Anchor Jump sounds considerably more fun than Heavy Gravity - Smooth Lander. Heavy Gravity just flat out sucks. It makes everyone feel like they're carrying a bucket of rocks on them.

This is almost entirely subjective. I prefer the heavier gravity over the floatiness of vanilla. And I don't think it's a bad philosophy to focus on certain aspects that bring stuff to the table that certain players might prefer over vanilla. This mode is quite fundamentally different from previous iterations of smash and even from vanilla. Some will like what it has to offer and others won't. Apples and oranges really.

 

[Muro]

"The way I see, look more at what this mode gives instead of what it takes away."
"please don't focus on what this game mode hinders, and instead pay attention to what it brings."

That is a really bad philosophy when trying to come up with a different way to play this game competitively utilizing the additional options this game has to offer.

Ok I'll give you better reasons, this is better both from a gameplay and logistic perspectives. A big reason I created this thread was to steer people into a viable solution, instead of the dead end that is random equipment. Turns out HG is actually better for more reasons than I initially thought.

 

[Balgorxz]

@ Muro It would be great if you could add this link to the main post on this thread. It's a chatroom to Anther's Ladder that we've made for SLHG matchmaking purposes. http://www.smashladder.com/netplay/SLHG

seriously, having an anther's ladder is on of the best things we could do

 

[Chucknoxus]

I think I'm the only european who wants to play this. The timezones are so annoying.

 

[soniczx123]

I think I'm the only european who wants to play this. The timezones are so annoying.

You're not alone my friend... (me too)

 

[Muro]

I think I'm the only european who wants to play this. The timezones are so annoying.

I have a ton of work to do this week, but after that I'll be playing with you for sure man.

 

[Octavium]

After playing a good bunch of It, I can say this is amazing and fun as hell, in fact it reminds me of the good old times when me and my close friends played nothing but Project M.

But I do have a bit of issues with this, the reduced jump height itself doesn't feel like an issue at all. Except for our good friend charizard, who's jumps now only reduces his fall speed rather than actually letting him fly. Not to mention metaknight who can't even gain altitude when using his multiple jumps no more.

Jiggly and Kirby plays just fine though.

Also I'm quite worried, ZSS seems to be able to connect Up-b after Down-throw at most percents. Has anyone had any success DI-ing away from that? It would suck for my main to become the new Diddy.

 

[Muro]

After playing a good bunch of It, I can say this is amazing and fun as hell, in fact it reminds me of the good old times when me and my close friends played nothing but Project M.

But I do have a bit of issues with this, the reduced jump height itself doesn't feel like an issue at all. Except for our good friend charizard, who's jumps now only reduces his fall speed rather than actually letting him fly. Not to mention metaknight who can't even gain altitude when using his multiple jumps no more.

Jiggly and Kirby plays just fine though.

Also I'm quite worried, ZSS seems to be able to connect Up-b after Down-throw at most percents. Has anyone had any success DI-ing away from that? It would suck for my main to become the new Diddy.

MK is good, but you gotta be carefull with your vertical spacing in relation to the stage. It takes a little bit of getting used to it but his Up-B has a great reach. He can gain altitude but not while also attacking. Horizontally he can just do whatever.

I played against a ZSS the other day and while I think she may have guaranteed followups you can make it hard for her by DI'ing back and front in order to mess her spacing up, maybe force a tech on a platform if it's available.

 

[ZADD]

The way I deal with ZSS is I out-space her, picking a character like Marth, Falco, or Villager is a good way to trump her grab game. Yes, you can DI her D-throws at higher percents, but until then low-percent guaranteed punishes are one of the facets that SLHG uses to speed up kills in general. Captain falcon knee combos are much more intimidating than ZSS's, especially since it is still slightly harder to kill of the top anyway. There are plenty of characters who can get a kill just from a grab, I actually love that sort of reward system, it feels incredibly satisfying to get even 1 good read, and flesh it out as much as possible.

Kill throw Characters: Palutena, Dr. Mario, Capt Falcon, ZSS, Samus (charge shot), Diddy, Donkey Kong, Meta Knight, Little Mac (KO), Mewtwo, Olimar, Ganondorf, Pikachu etc....

Edited: The whole vertical height thing for characters with multiple jumps is really not too complicated. Having an extra jump, even just 1 extra, is extremely helpful when aerial approaches are so safe and rewarding. It basically gives you an extra chance to bait in if you're charizard, and if you're Meta Knight you have air baits for days.. It also requires you to manage your space better when you don't get free lift from your 4+ jumps, you have to be more deliberate and in-your-face.

 

[Octavium]

since it is still slightly harder to kill of the top anyway

I feel like Sakurai just knew we were going to try this, because the most efficient build has the moon launcher badge, which really REALLY helps with this problem.

 

[ZADD]

I feel like Sakurai just knew we were going to try this, because the most efficient build has the moon launcher badge, which really REALLY helps with this problem.

I'd also like to mention the fact that all 3 badges are very close to each other on the board, and all are very difficult to acquire.

In other news, this might be the hypest replay so far...

And here's a good replay showing Little Mac's great pressure game, his recovery ain't bad vertically either.

I think my second kill in the second video is a good example of why moon launcher kicks ass for heavy gravity.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I feel like Sakurai just knew we were going to try this, because the most efficient build has the moon launcher badge, which really REALLY helps with this problem.

*Sakurai and company playing this exact build days before launch.*

Sakurai: "Those Melee elitists are gonna love this."

And the issues with the jump height for characters with extra jumps seemed like a problem at first, but aren't too bad actually. Kirby and Puff gain enough height with the jump to go out deep for edgeguards, and Meta Knight has 3 other options for getting back to the stage. Charizard does get hit the hardest, so you're going to have to time your side-B approach to get back to the stage. Dragon rush custom helps with this. And if you are close enough to the ledge and bounce off, you can make it back with fly.

Poor Charizard though. He's still not very good.

In other news, this might be the hypest replay so far...

And here's a good replay showing Little Mac's great pressure game, his recovery ain't bad vertically either.

I think my second kill in the second video is a good example of why moon launcher kicks *** for heavy gravity.

YO The Mewtwo comeback though. And yeah Little Mac is still a beast. Horizontal kills do him in easily, but vertically his recovery now isn't the worst. *Looks at Diddy and Sonic*

 

[Gatoray]

@ Muro You should probably put this video on the main post. It's super informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvWT-bK9w_M

Oh wait, you already have it linked. Maybe an embedded video would be better. Also, I notice your information is slightly outdated. You should update it to mention the current 3-equip build that we use.

 

[Muro]

@ Muro You should probably put this video on the main post. It's super informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvWT-bK9w_M

Oh wait, you already have it linked. Maybe an embedded video would be better. Also, I notice your information is slightly outdated. You should update it to mention the current 3-equip build that we use.

It's in the "how to play in SLHG" section, that could probably be streamlined, let me see if I can organize it better.

On the video: TRC already has a lot of followers, I want to give zadd some views. Plus I want the main video to be of PVP.

 

[Gatoray]

I looked at it again, I take it back, it looks fine. *thumbs up*

 

[Muro]

ok edited that how to section, I hope it's better now.

from reddit: "smooth gravity is a good name for this set up. Keep it up, guys!". @ ZADD and @ ArtfulHobbes would probably agree lol

Oh but @Rynhardt's post is almost reaching the front page, and he's calling it "slugging" lmao. Who's gonna win the naming battle?

 

[blargh257]

Also I'm quite worried, ZSS seems to be able to connect Up-b after Down-throw at most percents. Has anyone had any success DI-ing away from that? It would suck for my main to become the new Diddy.

True, but you have to remember she can't staircase combo because she falls too fast now. She's fine.
I have a video, and I have no capture card but I have a video anyway. This is my Jiggs vs @ Gatoray 's Zelda, and I think it's a good example of defensive play and a good point to bring up when arguing that defense is still viable. It's long, though.
Of course, I may be an idiot and this may not be particularly defensive. If that's true than this is good for arguing that four stocks is a bad idea.

 

[Muro]

sonic is surprisingly fun to watch

 

[DNeon]

I'd also like to mention the fact that all 3 badges are very close to each other on the board, and all are very difficult to acquire.

In other news, this might be the hypest replay so far...

I watched that (actually subscribed to your channel since the replays tend to be pretty damn good. Apart from the *ahem* shaky start that match was so good. God damn that last stock.

sonic is surprisingly fun to watch

Agreed, surprised to see how little the recovery nerf really affected him, but loved the on stage spring shenanigans, almost looked like an actual part of a Sonic game.

 

[Muro]

Agreed, surprised to see how little the recovery nerf really affected him, but loved the on stage spring shenanigans, almost looked like an actual part of a Sonic game.

me too, he can survive a falcon d-tilt at 100% near the ledge (with good DI), so he's not completely hopeless.

btw someone on reddit made some of zadds combos into giffy, really high quality. I can't seem to embed them so I'll link the post.
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/34w5zt/smooth_gravity_slhg_mini_gif_showcase/

I'd make that first falco combo the replacement for the main vid if I could embed it.

 

[Marachii]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3EEkcfKFA
I tried streaming this mode for a bit. It's actually more fun than I thought! Good find on this stuff.

 

[Linkshot]

Watched a bit of that Sonic match and started wondering if anybody has already talked about how and if the Spinshot is affected by Heavy Grav. Is it a better recovery tool than dj -> spring or does it get hit hard with the grav nerf?

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Watched a bit of that Sonic match and started wondering if anybody has already talked about how and if the Spinshot is affected by Heavy Grav. Is it a better recovery tool than dj -> spring or does it get hit hard with the grav nerf?

Nah Sonic gets the shaft in terms of recovery. Your options are double jump spring, or Neutral B if the opponent is on the stage. Side-B sends you down too fast.