smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[JamietheAuraUser]

Are you testing a customized character against a customized character, or against a non-customized CPU?

Also, I think leaving out the fact that the hyper smash bonus effect doesn't come into play unless you charge your smash attacks longer than normal, which is what provides the 1.3x effect in the first place, is somewhat disingenuous.

Yeah. Hyper Smash Attacks increases the power of a fully charged Smash Attack by 1.3x in exchange for increased total charge time to reach that level of power. I did the math on the subject in a different post. I'll quote it here for ease of access:

Hyper Smash Attacks seems like it's actually really good (as in kind of overpowered-ish but also really interesting) in all respects. Ever accidentally started charging a Smash Attack too early when your opponent gave you that good of a read, only to whiff because it went off automatically? Now, you may as well start charging as early as you feel confident doing so because charging "too early" only increases the power boost even further! With Hyper Smash Attacks enabled, the maximum multiplier on a charged Smash Attack becomes 1.8174x! Assuming that Hyper Smash Attacks doubles the charge time needed to reach max power, and that the percentage increase over time is linear, it doesn't affect the power of a standard 1-second charge very much, but the slight change it does cause is actually an increase, changing the multiplier for Smash Attack with exactly 1 second of charge from 1.398x to 1.4087x. In order for the power scaling to remain the same, Hyper Smash Attacks would actually have to set the maximum charge time to approximately 2.05 seconds.

And there's your math for the day, folks!

On top of that, if it was a randomized custom CPU, that CPU could easily have a massive stack of -defence mods equipped, which would result in a much easier shield break. As for breaking Jigglypuff's shield instantly, that's pretty impressive if Jigglypuff doesn't have defence-decreasing mods, as if I recall correctly Jigglypuff's shield is more significantly more durable than that of other characters.

 

[robinpup]

use this if you want to unlocke easily the smooth landing equipment! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKby5OKOE1U

 

[iLLuMinati_EYE]

getting this freaking equipment is the most frustrating crap in the world ive done the classic mode trick and played smash run for about three hours **** this damn thing

 

[Darrman]

Are you testing a customized character against a customized character, or against a non-customized CPU?

Also, I think leaving out the fact that the hyper smash bonus effect doesn't come into play unless you charge your smash attacks longer than normal, which is what provides the 1.3x effect in the first place, is somewhat disingenuous.

(i)It was against CPUs. (ii) Really? I didn't know that. Anyways, I just did a retest on Sandbag and that custom setup (+67ATK, -61DEF, =0SPD) is 46 uncharged and 63 charged. The CPU tests were to check knockback, and the -61 defence hurts Bowser. A lot. That knockback increase...

EDIT: With fsmash.

 

[Minty_]

Can we stop trying to fix a game that doesn't need fixing? For Cthulhu's sake people - the game has been out less than a month, people are loving it - wait a year and see if this actually merits discussion.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ahh crap. Just noticed the datel codes don't do anything for equipment. just headgear/outfits, and customs.

Gonna go request a equipment unlock code if they can do it. If anyone else wants them, I suggest you do the same.

https://powersaves3ds.maximummemory.com/coderequest/

Unless they do though, seems like we'll need to get together a rather extensive save file to make it worth it for people to apply it over theirs. I actually have little problem with the system as it is, being used to the bull**** pokemon IV system and Sakurai's Kid Icarus Uprising game with even worse levels of bull**** for specific qualities you want. (Was one of the only people to ever make truly perfect weapons) So maybe I'll be that save =p

9 intensity is a breeze for me but actually I've been doing ganon's target smash for equipment. Just retry until you see the green wrench and just warlock punch from the very beginning unless it's near the top, then just slide it forward a bit before punching. (I also have several easy methods on getting 270k+ perfect)

This isn't quite as fast as 9.0 or trophy rush on a good run, but you still get one about every minute and it's very low effort so you can watch stuff while you do it. (Reminds me of doing kid icarus uprising's first chapter on low intensity while you have high defense and you can just idle the flying portion and speed through the ground and boss to get 3 chances at a weapon. The weapons suck almost always but this made it more likely to get starless, and no less likely to get negative modifiers)

 

[Qbopper]

Or we can allow equipment in tournament play, and using this upgrade would be simple as that.

Equipment has so many random elements involved it will most likely never be added to a tourney, and any tourney that does allow it will be controversial.

I'm all for this idea but I doubt it will happen.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Smooth Lander is really freakin' powerful actually. If you give a minimum-size Mii Gunner a Smooth Lander equip, their FAir has no landing lag. That's a lagless projectile, people. That is ridiculous.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The game's fine

 

[Jaedrik]

This equipment should be legal. This and that equipment that increases lateral aerial movement :D

 

[DunnoBro]

I feel like a lot of people are a little too used to all the common/garbage tier parts.

I have this one part that removes your invincibility after a respawn in exchange for 60 speed, and only -5 attack.

That's a lagless projectile, people. That is ridiculous.

...So fox/falco and SHL again and everyone can do the equivalent of it?

The ONLY problem with any of these parts is that they are not feasibly attainable for a tournament environment and that this adds a demand for time investment on the part of the player that doesn't actually include them better themselves as players.

This works in pokemon (current gen) as you don't need to work on your reaction timing, followups, etc. You just need to get used to the poketheory and the competitive environment. (Also, it becomes a lot easier with friends/trades/etc)

At the very least if we could set a power to send out when we streetpass people, that'd be great. Like KI:U (and like KI:U, we can abuse the crap out of streetpass relay) Obviously, since this customs system and the menu of smash 4 is heavily based off KI:U, it was obviously on his mind and if he WANTED parts to be any easier to get than they are, Sakurai would've just recycled those ideas too.

I think the theory that parts weren't meant to be used competitively can be presented with this in mind.

Randomly getting one of the powers used by your opponent (online or off) would've been great too. This would promote people to friend, coordinate with, and play each other too.

Really though, getting an extensive save might not be that difficult. Get a group of powersavers together into a chat all at once with a single save, they announce when they get something new and they all update to that new save and continue grinding.

If it's not too naive and people are somehow interested in that idea, I can coordinate. Really just having one more person to double efforts with would be great

Edit: A thread could work better actually... Just make the save public and ask people reupload if they get new stuff.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

powerhouse, would people who own a digital copy of Smash be SOL with this Datel Powersaves stuff?

 

[Terotrous]

Across the board low landing lag really is not necessary for this game. Ground options are much better and most characters who need it have at least one aerial that autocancels and can be used as air to ground.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ouch yea I totally forgot about digital copies. I'll look into it...

 

[DunnoBro]

powerhouse, would people who own a digital copy of Smash be SOL with this Datel Powersaves stuff?

I've looked into it more, and yea it looks that way.

But i got something wrong earlier.

Apparently saves are locked to the cartridge they originate from. So unless Datel makes the code themselves, we're out of luck... That's what I get for buying a powersave last year and never even opening it until now lol. Learning everything now.

I don't see why they can't make some codes for it though. I hope they avoided it with their latest codes because they either didn't see the importance or was just currently a tad beyond them instead of completely beyond them. Better start sending them requests!

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

I sent in a request for a code that should do what we want. Either give us a bunch of copies of equipment with the different effects and min/max stats, or a code that allows equipment editing so we can create what we want ourselves in-game.

The only problem is that digital copy owners wouldn't be able to use this.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hopefully the wii u version will allow some sort of facilitation of equips that void some of the negatives for digital users.

 

[Roko Jono]

While I do like the base game itself in its own way. It's an interesting item. I doubt petitions for Nintendo work but I mean you could try to petition Nintendo to give us this item without stat changes or as a special smash mode. If anything its a nice thing for players to play the with. They let us change damage ratios for fun don't they? Why not give the player more options for fun?

 

[Saito]

While I do like the base game itself in its own way. It's an interesting item. I doubt petitions for Nintendo work but I mean you could try to petition Nintendo to give us this item without stat changes or as a special smash mode. If anything its a nice thing for players to play the with. They let us change damage ratios for fun don't they? Why not give the player more options for fun?

I seriously hope that smooth landing is a special mode in smash wii U

 

[Jaedrik]

Can we stop trying to fix a game that doesn't need fixing? For Cthulhu's sake people - the game has been out less than a month, people are loving it - wait a year and see if this actually merits discussion.

Oh? A year?
Man, the arbitrary time frames you people impose on us are getting longer and longer.

 

[Leebee]

The game's fine

also, I don't like how people are framing this as "trying to fix Smash 4;" no one is advocating that. we're simply trying to try something out that is literally in the game to see how it would change things up.

personally: I have no rosy feelings for Melee. moving around in it is cool but all the characters I love to play are awful in it. it's not a game that I'm super interested in recreating.

WE WAN FIKS IT GAIS

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I, for one, would be very interested in side tournaments where all characters have "smooth landing" and maybe another piece or two with other cool effects.

But as a tournament standard? Nahhh I'll pass.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I seriously hope that smooth landing is a special mode in smash wii U

Gotta say, that would be pretty cool.

...So fox/falco and SHL again and everyone can do the equivalent of it?

Yeah, but the Mii Gunner's FAir causes actual knockback instead of no flinching/only weak flinching, and deals 6% a pop with no attack mods if you're playing a minimum-size Gunner. Besides, we all know that short-hop lasers were ridiculous in both Melee and Brawl. There's a reason Fox and Falco were top-tier in Melee, and lasers had a lot to do with it. It was basically free damage whenever the opponent wasn't up in your face, you could retreat while doing it to make it take longer for them to get up in your face, and since they're lagless you can still be ready for the opponent when they reach you. It's a pretty close to flawless way to force your opponent to bring the fight to you as long as you're on a primarily horizontal stage.

I don't know that there are any other characters who benefit the same way as the Mii Gunner other than possibly Megaman, since Smooth Lander only affects normal aerials and not special moves, and Mii Gunner and Megaman are the only two characters with projectile aerials. And I'm not sure Megaman would benefit either, since his NAir behaves somewhat uniquely in terms of landing lag if I recall correctly. (It can be fired up to three times in succession like his jab, and if memory serves, it remains active on landing so you can keep firing NAir pellets on the ground.)

I, for one, would be very interested in side tournaments where all characters have "smooth landing" and maybe another piece or two with other cool effects.

But as a tournament standard? Nahhh I'll pass.

It would be kind of cool (if probably somewhat impractical) to do side tournaments where every character has one particular special equipment effect for that tournament. Not things that are just passive buffs, auto-healing, or similar weirdness, but things with more base mechanical changes might be interesting to run side events for. In particular, I'm thinking of:

— Improved Braking Ability: Massively increased traction. Fox-trots for everybody?
— Skater Traction: 1.5x dash speed but massively decreased traction. Dashing Up Smashes for life! No fox-trotting for you, though.
— Decreased Landing Impact: Decreased landing lag on normal aerial attacks and (seemingly) standard jumps.
— Improved Dodge Ability: Slows down dodge animations, increasing the duration of the intangibility frames in the process. Might also increase the distance covered by rolling dodges, but I'm uncertain on this.
— Weakened Dodge Ability: Claims to decrease the time you have to dodge attacks. If I had to guess, I'd say that it's most likely the exact opposite of Improved Dodge Ability, making dodge animations shorter and thus decreasing the intangibility duration.
— Hyper Smash Attacks: Smash Attacks can be charged for longer. Damage of a fully-charged Smash Attack is multiplied by 1.3.
— No-Flinch Charged Smashes: Gain Super Armour while charging a Smash Attack. Now everyone gets a pseudo-counter!
— Quick-Charge Smashes: Smash Attacks charge faster. Quicker KOs off of weaker reads, for those people who are sick of characters living until 140% due to the difficulty of landing KO moves.

 

[Minty_]

Oh? A year?
Man, the arbitrary time frames you people impose on us are getting longer and longer.

A year is a lowball estimate. I would have said two years but the internet isn't the sort of environment where patience and forethought flourishes. Now I'm thinking maybe I should set my expectations even lower?

 

[Jaedrik]

A year is a lowball estimate. I would have said two years but the internet isn't the sort of environment where patience and forethought flourishes. Now I'm thinking maybe I should set my expectations even lower?

No time frame is an acceptable time frame. You cannot (well, you can, but it's silly) just give us an ultimatum of 'you aren't allowed to draw conclusions until this date in time or thereabouts'.
Understanding is not a function of time. What you imply, that is the premise of your admonitions against us, is a false causation. Time, the passage thereof, does not control our knowing, nor can it ever be demonstrated to control our knowing, nor does it directly relate in any way. It often so happens that with time comes experience, but experience itself and the lessons derived thereof are timeless in nature, that is, once the mind holds those things then it knows them irrespective of the time before or after.

We can have sufficient information and experience to decide on these things already. This merits discussion now. The only consistent position that is opposed to this is the sentiment that of 'I want to keep the status quo, therefore I must defame all discussion which is hopeful for the change of said status quo'. And I do not believe you hold that position. I believe that you are just in intellectual error, and I hope you've seen that.

 

[Frozn~]

The fact still remains that no one knows what tournament-level smooth lander play would feel like, and all we're doing here seems to just be either shooting down smooth lander, or raging over said shooting down. There are also peeps who are a bit more open minded and chill about it, waiting patiently for someone to set up a tournament.

There is a function of time, actually, and that's how often a tournament can be set up that includes the use of Smooth Lander. Like a lot of us have said, we just don't know yet. I do see some folks on here who are trying to solve the problem of getting the Smooth landing equipment to everyone, and that's great. The other problem is actually holding tournament(s) to test out the viability. Heck, even small tournaments that run the Smooth Lander clause would be useful for analysis, so long as there are good players who are willing to abuse the heck out of this equipment. If smooth lander can be abused, then the answer would be to ban it from tournament play. If it becomes more fun to play Smash4, then we might allow it at more tournaments.

tl;dr I'd like to see more Smooth Lander gameplay, please

 

[Ganreizu]

Watching japanese tournaments, the game looks fast. Really difficult to analyze on the fly for the average viewer fast. I don't think we should consider implementing smooth lander without everyone having a common idea of how fast the game can be standalone.

 

[[TSON]]

Why do people keep mentioning combos? Landing lag has virtually no relevance to combos aka chaining attacks on-hit. Except for like, Fox dair, landing lag only affects how punishable non-auto-canceled aerials are.

Wait, what? Less landing lag means more time for movement. DHD gets guaranteed fair -> grab or fair -> fair with all DI with more advantageous frames, for example. Mario could do meteor hit on fair and proceed to combo into another attack rather than having to hit with the sourspot to do so, etc. It, along with aerial speed, are the two things most influential.

 

[DunnoBro]

>Quicker, lagless moves have virtually no relevance to combos

Yea. If by virtually you mean in an alternate virtual reality where combos aren't god damn combos.

 

[Killress]

I haven't gotten this item yet, but I've been farming for it for a while. I really want to try this out.

 

[[TSON]]

>Quicker, lagless moves have virtually no relevance to combos

Yea. If by virtually you mean in an alternate virtual reality where combos aren't god damn combos.

u mean brawl?

 

[Thinkaman]

I can't think of a single non-auto-cancelled landing aerial that starts a true combo in Smash 4.

Ironically, in Brawl some spikes could, but that is no longer the case in Smash 4 with the new spike mechanics.

Edit: Other old ones like Fox dair no longer work either.

Edit2: Sheik's lagless landing aerials can do boring 0% f-tilt links on some characters, but that's about all I can find. ZSS can rarely do similar 2-hit links at 0% as well.

Usually "desperate" non-AC aerials function like dash attacks, with lots of setup potential but no combos.

Edit3: I referenced the landing lag list and tried connecting the fastest aerials to their character's fastest followups. The only other ones I got to link were Mario nair -> u-tilt and Falcon uair -> jab, both only at near-0%.

Like dash attacks, it's a matter of state and distance. Aerials and dash attacks tend to launch opponents aerially while leaving you on the ground, creating enough distance to prevent true combos.

Almost all true combos come from ground attacks, fully auto-cancelled aerials at low %s, or rarely aerial-to-aerial (with preserved momentum).

 

[san.]

Ike's nair can true combo without autocancelling into bair. Nair->other aerials and tilts have many different factors such as VI and rage to deal with, but are common to hit with them.

I imagine many other characters should if Ike can, especially with low landing lag nairs, unless I'm confusing any terminology.

 

[Leebee]

I can't think of a single non-auto-cancelled landing aerial that starts a true combo in Smash 4.

Ironically, in Brawl some spikes could, but that is no longer the case in Smash 4 with the new spike mechanics.

Edit: Other old ones like Fox dair no longer work either.

Edit2: Sheik's lagless landing aerials can do boring 0% f-tilt links on some characters, but that's about all I can find. ZSS can rarely do similar 2-hit links at 0% as well.

Usually "desperate" non-AC aerials function like dash attacks, with lots of setup potential but no combos.

Edit3: I referenced the landing lag list and tried connecting the fastest aerials to their character's fastest followups. The only other ones I got to link were Mario nair -> u-tilt and Falcon uair -> jab, both only at near-0%.

Like dash attacks, it's a matter of state and distance. Aerials and dash attacks tend to launch opponents aerially while leaving you on the ground, creating enough distance to prevent true combos.

Almost all true combos come from ground attacks, fully auto-cancelled aerials at low %s, or rarely aerial-to-aerial (with preserved momentum).

most don't start combos because there is too much recovery time on landing to follow up... which is exactly what "smooth landing" lessens. it's incredibly simple. with more time you can move further and attack earlier.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ike's nair can true combo without autocancelling into bair. Nair->other aerials and tilts have many different factors such as VI and rage to deal with, but are common to hit with them.

I can't replicate this; I can get close on mid-weights around 30%. (It's certainly a frame trap) I can also sometimes get a true combo nair -> jab at 0% on some characters. Can you provide any guidance?

I imagine many other characters should if Ike can, especially with low landing lag nairs, unless I'm confusing any terminology.

The problem is that those weak sourspots don't do nearly enough hitstun to true-combo. Literally the only one I found that always works is Mario u-tilt, and only still at low %s. With a big reduction in landing lag, Lucario and Luigi would probably be able to behave similarly. (It would have to be a big % reduction though, since their lag is already so low.)

most don't start combos because there is too much recovery time on landing to follow up... which is exactly what "smooth landing" lessens. it's incredibly simple. with more time you can move further and attack earlier.

But it's still not enough to true combo. Even if you took away ALL landing lag, there'd be surprisingly few guaranteed links--we know this because of how many SH auto-cancel aerials there are in the game.

 

[san.]

I can't replicate this; I can get close on mid-weights around 30%. I can also sometimes get a true combo nair -> jab at 0% on some characters. Can you provide any guidance?

Hit with nair with the enemy behind you as soon as you land. Easiest input is full hop+ nair and fastfall at the same time. You suffer the full 16 frames of lag, but you can still use bair. Works pretty easily in the 40-60 range on heavyweights and 30-55 on Bowser and Sheik in training mode for 2 hits, 22%.

In a real match you will rarely get such perfect positioning, but with staling, VI, rage, etc, there is usually enough stun to combo out of nair quite easily in practice, nair->full hop fair being the most practical for me.

With Shulk, I could nair->ftilt, but I'm not sure if you can avoid it with VI.

 

[Thinkaman]

Got it; I had been trying it out of SH. It's pretty tough, the nair has to be perfect!

And Stale Moves + rage don't make it easier or harder per se, they just shift the % range it works at.

Edit: It's a little bit easier on heavies; I can do it to Bowser out of SH at higher %s.

Ike nair has a few unique properties that enable it to link better than most moves. Its sourspot is still quite strong, but more importantly hits upwards. (Contrast with say, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, Falcon, or MK nairs) This means that the hitstun is much higher relative to the distance traveled, thanks to gravity.

Then Ike has bair, which is an unusually fast move for its range. It was frame 6 in Brawl, right?

Diddy Kong also has a vertical-hitting nair sourspot, and can nair -> u-tilt at 0% like Mario.

 

[obeymalleo]

How do you unlock the Smooth Lander?

 

[NewGuy79]

How do you unlock the Smooth Lander?

you pray to the elder gods....








and play classic

 

[Jasir]

how do we unlock smooth lander?