smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Jucchan]

how do we unlock smooth lander?

You use luck. A LOT of luck.

 

[Roxas215]

Just to let people know. Powersaves released codes to unlock EVERYTHING. That includes all moves and equipment. A TO could easily spend 20$ on a powersave and use it on systems at the tournament. It only needs to be done once and boom you have everything unlocked. Might be a little time consuming early on but "Time Constraints" Really isn't a legit complaint.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think people are so rabid over the idea of less lag that people forget that the game just came out and we need to see where the game will fall on its own first.

 

[Roxas215]

While i agree that we should let the game build on its own. Less lag grant more movement options which grants more options in general. That cant possibly be a bad thing.

 

[Frozn~]

Just to let people know. Powersaves released codes to unlock EVERYTHING. That includes all moves and equipment. A TO could easily spend 20$ on a powersave and use it on systems at the tournament. It only needs to be done once and boom you have everything unlocked. Might be a little time consuming early on but "Time Constraints" Really isn't a legit complaint.

So can the powersave spawn a Smooth Lander badge with 0 stats?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

While i agree that we should let the game build on its own. Less lag grant more movement options which grants more options in general. That cant possibly be a bad thing.

Eh... Kinda....

It's not so much the lag itself, just what is necessary to get less lag, what's necessary to balance the lag and (my opinion here) a potential split in the community like never before.

So can the powersave spawn a Smooth Lander badge with 0 stats?

I don't even think you can get a piece of equipment with zero stat changes.

 

[Frozn~]

I see what you mean. I can foresee plenty of players being turned off by the fact of having to get this equipment, and relearn their characters all over again. There's also the split that would separate the SL users from players who are against any equipment being used, potentially resulting in some sort of superiority complex on the side of the SL users.

But hopefully we're a bit more mature than that, and hopefully everyone knows that the default settings should trump everything else in the case of a disagreement. Sakurai did do a pretty good job of balancing this time around, after all. The main reason this thread is even here is due to the possibility that we'd have more fun playing with more movement options if there was less lag.

 

[guayaba209]

The grind isn't that hard for smooth lander. I unlocked it once, and received it on a bunch of characters i think. I got it on shulk and now also have it on ness, wii fit trainer, villager, and sonic. As far i know each character has certain links with other character for example... megaman-samus, kirby-dedede, and Pacman-Captain falcon. You can tell by looking at the items each character has, and noticing that some character have alot of the same items.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

But hopefully we're a bit more mature than that, and hopefully everyone knows that the default settings should trump everything else in the case of a disagreement. Sakurai did do a pretty good job of balancing this time around, after all. The main reason this thread is even here is due to the possibility that we'd have more fun playing with more movement options if there was less lag.

You don't have any more movement options because of this equipment, you have the same options a couple of frames earlier. Don't make people believe this.

If you start using equipment to cancel lag on aerials you're unintentionally nerfing characters like peach, TL, link, greninja, ect... who have their own means of l-canceling. Suddenly their AT's are worth a fraction of what they where before, what gives all of you guys the right to do this to the meta and to everyone who plays those characters.

 

[Frozn~]

Okay, but the few frames we do get allow for more follow ups that work. For a particularly laggy move, anyone with experience will know that there are only a few options available after landing, mainly shield, place-dodge/roll, or resetting the spacing. Decreasing the lag might allow more of the options that initially didn't work to now be used practically, say another aerial.

I do know of some interesting lag-cancels like Greninja's shadow sneak out of D-air, and I use it a lot, myself. What becomes a problem is when my opponent gets the hang of it and starts to predict it. Suddenly every time I use D-air and miss, I get punished. Now there are two options I could take: keep getting punished or stop using D-air the way I was doing before. Without the lag, I still have the option to use Shadow Sneak out of D-air, but I also potentially have the option to SH B-air, place-dodge, grab, etc. I don't think we'd be nerfing anyone, really. If anything, everyone gets a slight buff, but some moreso than others, depending on what options are made available with Smooth Lander. Plus, more options = more mindgames, right?

I'll admit that I have no experience with SL, which is why I'm so open to it. But the other reason is that looking at every playstyle, from aggro to campers, there doesn't seem to be a downside to decreased landing lag, as there will still be some lag present on some moves to punish. The main problem is getting everyone to accept it, which is actually much more difficult than getting people to agree that SL speeds up the gameplay.
This is why many of us proposed having it as a side-thing on tournaments, just to see how people like it in practice.

 

[Xyro77]

As a major TO from Texas, I will never allow equipment.

Have a nice day, casuals who can't get good with their character.

 

[Killress]

As a major TO from Texas, I will never allow equipment.

Have a nice day, casuals who can't get good with their character.

Being a casual has nothing to do with it... that's like saying someone who L canceled in Melee is a casual. "They weren't good enough with their character to combo without negating some landing lag." I think before everyone starts arguing, everyone should try out the mechanic. I'm curious as to what kind of combo potential it can open up.

 

[Xyro77]

You missed the point of my post. It has nothing to do with l-cancelling and casualism.

Want L-cancelling? Go play melee.

Melee is it's own game just like brawl is just like smash 4 is. Every smash game should not be compared to melee and we should not strive to be melee......we already have melee.

 

[Killress]

You missed the point of my post. It has nothing to do with l-cancelling and casualism.

Want L-cancelling? Go play melee.

Melee is it's own game just like brawl is just like smash 4 is. Every smash game should not be compared to melee and we should not strive to be melee......we already have melee.

But Smash 4 DOES have L Cancelling...

 

[Xyro77]

But Smash 4 DOES have L Cancelling...

No it doesn't. It has auto cancelling and equipment.

 

[yume_nikki]

It’s really surprising that after 4 pages of theorizing no one has bothered to measure the real effect of smooth lander, having a video in the OP. So I’ve downloaded the video and counted the frames of lag in Marth’s aerials (0:40-1:10). The results aren’t completely precise because of 30 fps. Also, I’ve never played as Marth, and the recording is terrible, so there may be small 1-2 frame errors.

Nair: Between 7 and 9 frames with smooth lander. 15 frames without equipment

Fair: 9 - 11 vs 18 frames.

Bair: No bair in the video, sorry.

Uair: 7 - 9 frames vs 16

Dair: 15-17 frames vs 28


So, with this data I think we can assume that smooth lander decreases landing lag by 50%. Just like l-cancel.

Personally, I’m still against this, at least until the meta stablishes (and this can be in more than two years). We know nothing about tier lists, we still aren’t fully sure of what stages should be legal, and we don’t agree in the stocks per match. Heck, I think there hasn’t been yet any major tournament with the 3DS version, and the Smash4 for Wii U isn’t out yet. Trying to impose mechanical changes to the standard game now is just ridiculous. (And making powersaves compulsory for tournaments... just no).

 

[Frozn~]

Thanks for the stats yume_nikki.

I think I'm slowly understanding the arguments against legalizing SL, because now to me it seems like a huge hassle to demand every single player to slap this equipment on their characters. Smash4 plays fine, and will have its own meta. The new mechanics and more balanced characters may make Smash4 even more popular than Melee, not for the crazy speed and tech skill, but for its viable, diverse characters and smooth gameplay. Good stuff.

I'd still like to see tournament level Smooth Lander play, though XD

 

[Killress]

No it doesn't. It has auto cancelling and equipment.

Equipment that has L canceling. I think it's worth it to at least try it out.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I restate that this should be for funsies at side events or mini-tournaments that are organized specifically for this, maybe later down the road for sure. Why not, I mean, it's in the game and if it's not affecting the serious side of things I'm sure it's fine.

 

[Ganreizu]

While i agree that we should let the game build on its own. Less lag grant more movement options which grants more options in general. That cant possibly be a bad thing.

Less lag doesn't grant more movement options. Less lag grants more movement and more move frequency, which affects combos, but it doesn't magically let you have more options than you are allowed.

And yes, it could very easily be a bad thing.

 

[Frozn~]

I think you're both talking about the same thing and just differing in semantics.

Just curious, though. How is less lag a bad thing? I mean I wouldn't like zero lag, but auto L-cancel lag?

 

[Conda]

Just to let people know. Powersaves released codes to unlock EVERYTHING. That includes all moves and equipment. A TO could easily spend 20$ on a powersave and use it on systems at the tournament. It only needs to be done once and boom you have everything unlocked. Might be a little time consuming early on but "Time Constraints" Really isn't a legit complaint.

What about players? We gotta do the same, or play with a save file that isn't our own?

 

[UNKN{OWN}iXi]

I think you're both talking about the same thing and just differing in semantics.

Just curious, though. How is less lag a bad thing? I mean I wouldn't like zero lag, but auto L-cancel lag?

People are irrationally close-minded to reduced/zero landing lag. I recommend people play Smash 64 if they think zero landing lag breaks the game.

So the fact that people are hesitant with just reduced landing lag is quite disappointing. Isn't it obvious how beneficial it is to gameplay for all types of players? It harms no one, but helps the game on so many levels.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think the whole "getting gear" changes, why would it matter? If you can transfer customs to WiiU you only need one guy cause his gear goes with him, and I imagine that means any other sets could equip that same gear :3

 

[Killress]

I managed to get smooth lander earlier. I counterbalanced the stats with other gear. I have 0 attack, +7 defense, 0 speed. It feels really good but I haven't played a real person using it yet.

 

[rhysmorgan]

Seriously I'd be spending more time grinding equipment to get ready for tournaments than actually practicing for tournaments

I doubt it'd take that long. Also, competitive Pokémon has items pretty much necessary for competitive play and you need to grind to get them - for example in the Battle Maison, you need to grind to get enough Battle Points to buy battle items.

 

[Gidy]

Oh look, it's Smash Flash 2 lol.

I think that if we do allow this equipment to be used we have to have universal stats for EVERY character. This could get it to be very tedious to make sure every player has the same stats in tournaments, but I believe it's worth it. Maybe custom equipment CAN be allowed, but the stats cannot pass the -8 or +8 mark. I think that is a fair compromise.

 

[Jaedrik]

I think people are so rabid over the idea of less lag that people forget that the game just came out and we need to see where the game will fall on its own first.

Yet cannot we know where it falls by demonstrating the lay of the ground and the forces at play upon it the game?
I say we already know where it will land. It's looking to get punished hard due to all that landing lag. Heh.

 

[Leebee]

I think people are so rabid over the idea of less lag that people forget that the game just came out and we need to see where the game will fall on its own first.

seeing where the game will fall on its own and playing around with stuff like Soft Lander aren't two mutually exclusive things. it's really annoying see so many posts framing things as ONLY ONE THING OR THE OTHER.

 

[SmashBroPlusB]

I restate that this should be for funsies at side events or mini-tournaments that are organized specifically for this, maybe later down the road for sure. Why not, I mean, it's in the game and if it's not affecting the serious side of things I'm sure it's fine.

I agree. I'd be all for an equipment-based chain of side events, just as long as it doesn't up-stage the main tournament scene.

 

[DunnoBro]

Eh... Kinda....

It's not so much the lag itself, just what is necessary to get less lag, what's necessary to balance the lag and (my opinion here) a potential split in the community like never before.


I don't even think you can get a piece of equipment with zero stat changes.

With the spawn it likely can. I mean there's +200 +200 +200 (no negatives) equipment from them.
However...

Just to let people know. Powersaves released codes to unlock EVERYTHING. That includes all moves and equipment. A TO could easily spend 20$ on a powersave and use it on systems at the tournament. It only needs to be done once and boom you have everything unlocked. Might be a little time consuming early on but "Time Constraints" Really isn't a legit complaint.

I hope this wasn't in response to my post, but I was incorrect. Got ahead of myself and thought "outfits" meant equipment somehow since it was listed with customs. But they meant the mii outfits.

They did release a few equipment codes for the EU version, nothing at all balanced though.

 

[Illuvial]

I doubt it'd take that long. Also, competitive Pokémon has items pretty much necessary for competitive play and you need to grind to get them - for example in the Battle Maison, you need to grind to get enough Battle Points to buy battle items.

You're comparing a fighting game to an RPG and that's kinda irrelevant

 

[DunnoBro]

You're comparing a fighting game to an RPG and that's kinda irrelevant

Not necessarily, competitive atmospheres and mindsets and likely other variables overlap. The issue with his post was that items aren't nearly as difficult to get as specific equipment, a more apt comparison would be to hidden ability pokemon with proper IVs. The battle maison is really quite easy if you just use a mega khan. (Not even with perfect ivs, just decent with proper nature) and decent team to back it up. It may take a while but it's consistent and the goal is foreseeable unlike here.

But even to hidden ability pokemon, it's not a proper comparison.

The three main pitfalls of equipment between it and the competitive environment:

-Randomness
-Difficulty acquiring
-Testing with/against.

Each of these are deal-breakers on their own.

It simply isn't feasible to assume everyone can have the same benefits from equipment, so games can come down to who was luckiest.

You were lucky enough to get the rare, ideal equipment you wanted? Good luck being able to test against anyone else who did.

Have someone who can test this, but not that? How can he get an accurate feel of what's broken or bad?

The only chance equipment has is:

A: As a side event, which when the Wii U version comes out I think can be very likely since everyone will have their own 3ds units if people are willing to play there. You'll merely need a TO willing to oversee.

B: Datel either gives us set equipment via save editing, or a code that lets us develop our own. AND hopefully transfer that equipment to the Wii U version. (which seems likely after the discovery of "share" in the unused data from a japanese dumper)

 

[DarkDream]

I personally feel we should rally for Sakurai to release a patch that has a third option page that enables equipment effects in matches without having to have the equipment in the same vein as special brawl. That's a lot more likely to happen than this thing being used in tourneys

 

[Shog]

How do you get Smooth Lander anyways?(Does somebody know the German translation??) I would love to try that out !

Edit: It is called "Agil nach Landung" in German for the equipment and boy, Shulk turns into a behemoth with it O_OI

 

[Killress]

I'm really liking smooth landing.

 

[Jaedrik]

I've got smooth landing rocket barrel and smooth landing zapper.
omg game pls why u do dis to me

 

[Shog]

I've got smooth landing rocket barrel and smooth landing zapper.
omg game pls why u do dis to me

Can you eloborate what you exactly mean with that? Do the characters which can use this equipment have only autocancel aerials?

 

[Jaedrik]

Can you eloborate what you exactly mean with that? Do the characters which can use this equipment have only autocancel aerials?

Only a select few characters can use the aforementioned equipment. Classic/NES for the zapper (like ROB and DH) and rocket barrel is Diddy only.

 

[guedes the brawler]

hey, guys, i got an idea! let's make SL tournaments SIDE EVENTS. see how well they run in practice. maybe it's easier on TOs than we think. Maybe it completely destroys the balance to the point where only 5 characters are viable.

let anything and everything equipment-related be side-events, seriously. NOBODY bought smash to grind and play as altered characters; we shouldn't enforce these things on players.