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I'm pretty serious about my main, yeah.Are being serious with this post m8?
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I'm pretty serious about my main, yeah.Are being serious with this post m8?
Ok?I'm pretty serious about my main, yeah.
Just for reference, I'm not exactly the most sound of mind person here. I have a tendency to dote on certain fictional characters.Ok?
I don't understand the salt regarding people finding her moe or attractive though... How is "people not taking her seriously" in any way a bad thing? If anything, it thoroughly helps her surprise factor considering how much more powerful she is this time around.
I'll just simply quote this again since you weren't able to read just a few posts down the line for context / clarification...Being a ruler isn't a personality trait, it's a job. I think people more than anything are glad Zelda was given an actual personality for once rather than just being a plot device for Link to get **** done. I personally, would be more than glad to play a Zelda game where the protag is Ultimate Zelda, she's by far her best incarnation.
I'm also sick of people saying Twilight Zelda "did not have" a personality, when like it's been said dozens of times already, her personality was quiet, calm, stoic, regal, wise, distinguished, reserved, mature, etc. Just because she wasn't a 22 year old giggling, skipping an laughing like a pre-teen doesn't mean she was devoid of any personality. You just didn't like the personality that she did have, similar to how I'd assume you don't like Lucina's personality either.You're getting hung up on the "ruler" part when the main point was "queenly", which is a a term I've used on its own before in this topic. That's also why I gave a list of related synonym traits such as stoic, regal, distinguished. "Ruler" was just a synonym for "Princess" because I don't want to type "princess" 500 times in this forum.
Think Julie Andrews in The Princess Diaries. That's "queenly". It describes the maturity and distinction with which you carry yourself, not your acting functional rank in a monarchy.
You're contradicting your original criticism of Oz's point here.Ok?I don't understand the salt regarding people finding her moe or attractive though... How is "people not taking her seriously" in any way a bad thing? If anything, it thoroughly helps her surprise factor considering how much more powerful she is this time around.
Ok, so you're salty cause TP Zelda was your favorite, and now we got a different Zelda. Cool. Gotcha.I'll just simply quote this again since you weren't able to read just a few posts down the line for context / clarification...
I'm also sick of people saying Twilight Zelda "did not have" a personality, when like it's been said dozens of times already, her personality was quiet, calm, stoic, regal, wise, distinguished, reserved, mature, etc. Just because she wasn't a 22 year old giggling, skipping an laughing like a pre-teen doesn't mean she was devoid of any personality. You just didn't like the personality that she did have, similar to how I'd assume you don't like Lucina's personality either.
This SSBU Zelda personality also is not actually from any actual Zelda game, so the claim that it means she is not a plot device for Link is false pretext with no precedent.
You're contradicting your original criticism of Oz's point here.
If Zelda's new design is not making people take her less seriously, then how can there be a surprise factor?
No need to blindly guess, I already said why in another part of this topic you didn't read before commenting:That's too bad, but let people enjoy whatever they enjoy. No need to get upset over it. As far as I and most people are concerned (at least to my exp) Ultimate Zelda is best girl. If people wanna praise the waifu factor of the character because that's where they find appeal, then so be it.
If you're actually going to practice what you preach, then there's no issue.I don't like the bashing on Twilight Zelda, so I'm defending her.
you don't have to hate on one Zelda in order to just prefer another.
Idk. I like Ultimate Zelda because she's Ultimate Zelda. She's cute as ****, has a very likable characterization/personality, and she's incredibly fun to play as. I decided to try the character BECAUSE of the sex appeal, and then wound up really liking the way she played after the fact. I'm willing to admit I'm a bandwagonfag when it comes to Zelda, since I'm very late to the party compared to everyone who stuck around with her since Melee. I just personally never had much interest in her in Smash prior to, she just seemed bland and boring to me. Not to knock the people who liked the older variants, I just never cared, but this new take on her really resonated with me, and I personally, really wanna see more of her, outside of Smash. Nintendo has been talking about a Zelda-focused Zelda game for a while now, and I've always been down for that given her characterization in SS and BotW were both uniquely interesting. However, if they were to do that with a Zelda that was a lot like Ultimate Zelda, I'd be more than down, as she's imo, by far the best characterization she's ever had. Does that make me a waifufag? I guess, but I don't really care. The presentation on the character is just to my tastes. You might see a giggling schoolgirl, but I see a someone with a lot of character to their presentation. The subtly in the details really add a lot more to the character than she's ever had, yes, even the mainline games. A lot more is communicated about WHO Ultimate Zelda is in her idle animations, victory poses, and just the flair and expressive details in her attacks, than in hours of boring and lengthy dialogue in the mainline Zelda games. And this is coming from someone who, as I said before, liked the more developed focus she got in SS and BotW. However, in terms of actual character, I much prefer the more cunning and brave Ultimate Zelda with a flair of Genki over the idealized love interest of SS Zelda, or the wannabe Tsundere who's actually kinda useless in BotW Zelda. Idk, to me Ultimate Zelda communicates a lot of confidence and charm in everything she does, and that to me creates a more appealing character.No need to blindly guess, I already said why in another part of this topic you didn't read before commenting:
If you're actually going to practice what you preach, then there's no issue.
People that come in and say, "I like this new Zelda because she's A, B, C, and also has X, Y, Z", that's fine. That's what almost everyone else does when they say why they like a character. (but make no mistake, in describing the traits of SSBU Zelda, you'll just be describing another anime stereotype)
But if you come in say, "I like this new Zelda because she's not Twilight Zelda", you're not "letting people enjoy whatever they enjoy", you're actually just sh***ing on what they enjoy. Don't act surprised when people respond to unsolicited negativity with their own negativity.
Except she wasn't...at all. All of her animations were from the Melee iteration, she voicelines were BASED on the Melee iteration, and the ONLY thing sourced from her game was her model and Final Smash. She was a texture-pack mod of Melee Zelda, and any semblance of personality just happened to coincide with the fact that both Zeldas (Melee and Brawl/4) were princesses and acted as such. If her personality/theme WAS sourced from Twilight Princess (I'm not saying anything against the actual TP Zelda IN TP), then she wouldn't throw her body around with the same vigor as a Zelda who moonlighted as a literal ninja. She would have actual grace, poise, and some regal flourish. Oh, and she might use her sword too.I'm also sick of people saying Twilight Zelda "did not have" a personality, when like it's been said dozens of times already, her personality was quiet, calm, stoic, regal, wise, distinguished, reserved, mature, etc.
Eh, Melee Zelda was the best. Every noteworthy thing she had was sourced from her game. She was the most faithful Smash iteration to date. While I do enjoy this new Zelda, she's just a quilt of previous Zeldas. (So our real debate is whether you prefer a quilt or a texture-hack of Melee Zelda)Ultimate Zelda, she's by far her best incarnation.
Personally, I like Ult Zelda cause she's NOT faithful to any of the previous Zelda's, but rather, more of an archetype of the direction Nintendo seemingly wants to take Zelda into given her previous appearances in the last two games. Like yeah, her design is an aged-up LttP/ALBW Zelda. But her personality is unlike any of them in any previous games, and that's what makes her much more appealing imo. And why I hope this take in her doesn't wind up being constrained to just Smash (it probably will be though).Except she wasn't...at all. All of her animations were from the Melee iteration, she voicelines were BASED on the Melee iteration, and the ONLY thing sourced from her game was her model and Final Smash. She was a texture-pack mod of Melee Zelda, and any semblance of personality just happened to coincide with the fact that both Zeldas (Melee and Brawl/4) were princesses and acted as such. If her personality/theme WAS sourced from Twilight Princess (I'm not saying anything against the actual TP Zelda IN TP), then she wouldn't throw her body around with the same vigor as a Zelda who moonlighted as a literal ninja. She would have actual grace, poise, and some regal flourish. Oh, and she might use her sword too.
Eh, Melee Zelda was the best. Every noteworthy thing she had was sourced from her game. She was the most faithful Smash iteration to date. While I do enjoy this new Zelda, she's just a quilt of previous Zeldas. (So our real debate is whether you prefer a quilt or a texture-hack of Melee Zelda)
I prefer Ult Zelda as well considering their refusal to give us a decent kit/design. If the kit is always going to be this archaic hodgepodge, then at least drop the pretense that it is based on anything in particular.Personally, I like Ult Zelda cause she's NOT faithful to any of the previous Zelda's, but rather, more of an archetype of the direction Nintendo seemingly wants to take Zelda into given her previous appearances in the last two games. Like yeah, her design is an aged-up LttP/ALBW Zelda. But her personality is unlike any of them in any previous games, and that's what makes her much more appealing imo. And why I hope this take in her doesn't wind up being constrained to just Smash (it probably will be though).
I disagree that her kit is a hodgepode of random things, on the contrary, her kit has a very clear defensive playstyle focused on set-ups, and hard reads. All of her attacks are based around getting people off of her, creating a gap, applying pressure, and then hitting hard with a kill move. Zelda's a character with a TON of kill options and is heavily focused around always keeping a certain distance from your opponent. Imo, the new Phantom was a great addition to her kit, and all she really needed to round it out.I prefer Ult Zelda as well considering their refusal to give us a decent kit/design. If the kit is always going to be this archaic hodgepodge, then at least drop the pretense that it is based on anything in particular.
Would I love to have a reworked Twilight Princess Zelda with her sword, magic spells loosely based off of Puppet Zelda and her Bow of Light? Of course I would. Until that happens, however, I'll be sated with Ultimate's Zelda.
Also, if she is supposed to play keep/away, then what is she supposed to do while keeping away? How is she pressuring them with short-ranged, single hit, laggy attacks and telegraphed projectiles If anything, it's exactly the opposite. You corral with Phantom to force them into a space where you can use one of her combo tools (up-tilt, grab, nair).her kit has a very clear defensive playstyle focused on set-ups, and hard reads. All of her attacks are based around getting people off of her, creating a gap, applying pressure, and then hitting hard with a kill move.
Uhhh, people are more predisposed to playing defensively rather than offensively.I guess it might be cause a lot of Smash players aren't exactly used to more defensive playstyles, that they try to play her wrong, more aggressively, rather than being patient and getting the big set-ups, that they just don't get what she's about.
For the record I would like to state that your argument is that Leffen has a lack of understanding about how Smash works. Leffen was absolutely correct in his assessment of Zelda. His statement was not about playing aggressively at all. Even Belmonts have a plethora of short range pressure tools. His point is about the opportunity cost of that flaw. If you don't have a way to threaten at short range, then what does that mean for the characters that can take advantage of that flaw? I would also like to point out once again that you mention playing a keep away game, but Zelda has no tools to give her an advantage from adopting that playstyle. A character with short ranged combo starters and good grab combos does NOT want to be giving people space to move or camp her out.I even remember watching a tier list by Leffen, where he straight up said Ultimate Zelda was trash, because she didn't have any fast aerial attacks to apply short range pressure with, but to me, all that says is that people don't understand HOW you're supposed to play the character. She's not meant to be an aggressive fighter, she's defensive and plays a more keep-away game.
Nah, I'm talking about the actual Twilight Zelda from the game itself. The one with actual dialogue, who made her own decisions and had relationships and actual interactions with Link, Zant, Ganon and Midna.Except she wasn't...at all. All of her animations were from the Melee iteration, she voicelines were BASED on the Melee iteration, and the ONLY thing sourced from her game was her model and Final Smash. She was a texture-pack mod of Melee Zelda, and any semblance of personality just happened to coincide with the fact that both Zeldas (Melee and Brawl/4) were princesses and acted as such. If her personality/theme WAS sourced from Twilight Princess (I'm not saying anything against the actual TP Zelda IN TP), then she wouldn't throw her body around with the same vigor as a Zelda who moonlighted as a literal ninja. She would have actual grace, poise, and some regal flourish. Oh, and she might use her sword too.
Her not being from any actual Zelda game is precisely why I don't prefer her to Twilight or Ocarina Zelda.Personally, I like Ult Zelda cause she's NOT faithful to any of the previous Zelda's, but rather, more of an archetype of the direction Nintendo seemingly wants to take Zelda into given her previous appearances in the last two games. Like yeah, her design is an aged-up LttP/ALBW Zelda. But her personality is unlike any of them in any previous games, and that's what makes her much more appealing imo. And why I hope this take in her doesn't wind up being constrained to just Smash (it probably will be though).
While I agree with this, especially the part about using Twilight Zelda for he sword, puppet Zelda battle, bow of light, etc, I just don't ever see it happening.My statement was more about how poorly her kit has aged. Dins, while new for the time, leave her wide open no matter how much you buff them. Nayru's as a reflector is outclassed by the action-canceled Shines and PSI Magnets of the world. Its only redeeming quality is the frame 4 invincibility that makes it an anti-pressure tool. Not to mention that she is LttP (hardly) Zelda with OoT Link's spells, Spirit Tracks' Phantom, and a Breath of the Wild Final Smash. Sure, I understand that they want to have a little something for everyone, but it comes across as a jumbled mess. Unfortunately this is what happens when a NPC who gets very little screen time is put into a fighting game. The devs have to take creative liberties and fill in gaps. That's why I think that Zelda should be solely based on Twilight Princess. At least in that game, the method Zelda would use to attack is suggested by her possession of a sword and the Puppet Zelda fight. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to give her some sword flourishes, a cool AoE Triforce spell (imagine a wide Isabelle trap that stuns when entered), a Project M Mewtwo float, and a ball of lightning to hurl at people.
It is for exactly THIS reason that Zelda will never be what we want her to be. She will ALWAYS be Frankenstein's Monster, a careful stitchwork, a montage of everything that she has been and has done through the years. (it's still no excuse for her kit being the way it is)In just about every Zelda game to date, Link uses a sword. He also has a shield. He has a bow and a boomerang for ranged attacks. He has bombs and a hookshot (except BotW). What that means for Smash is that you can design a fighter who has a sword, shield, bow and bombs and there's a very good chance that the next mainline game that character is featured in will still have the weapons from your fighting game 5 years prior. Same thing with someone like Samus, or or Fox McCloud, or especially a pokemon like Mewtwo.
So yeah, that's why I think it'd be cool, but is too much of a Longshot (pun intended).
You keep bringing up this point about her being an anime stereotype, but that could be said about every iteration of Zelda. It's kind of a moot point. What's more is that I prefer the "anime stereotype" of the stoic and formal princess over the happy-go-lucky giggly girl, and yet I prefer Ultimate's Zelda. I think that it fits her hodgepodge nature better than trying to pretend that the Zelda we're playing is "Twilight Princess Zelda".Like I said before, you can't describe her personality without just listing off a bunch of traits of an anime stereotype. She has no backstory or plot setting, no accomplishments or failures, no unique skills or talents, no unique tendencies or patterns of behavior, no relationships with anyone else, no life driving motivations, no hobbies or pastimes, no dialogue or even recorded thoughts of her own.
Watch this...You keep bringing up this point about her being an anime stereotype, but that could be said about every iteration of Zelda. It's kind of a moot point. What's more is that I prefer the "anime stereotype" of the stoic and formal princess over the happy-go-lucky giggly girl, and yet I prefer Ultimate's Zelda. I think that it fits her hodgepodge nature better than trying to pretend that the Zelda we're playing is "Twilight Princess Zelda".
Definitely.Or I could just mod in Skyward Sword Zelda and forget about this discussion lol.
Actually...they SHOULD DO THAT! It would be so cool if they "Koopalinged" her.
Okay, now you're being unfair. You are basing the other Zeldas off of what they originate from, but are failing to do the same for Ultimate Zelda. The official statement is that she is based on ALttP. So regardless of her visuals matching up with ALBW, we should go by the official statement.Watch this...
And then...
Ultimate Zelda:
- Smiles.
- Laughs and giggles.
- Cute, young voice.
- Sassy taunts.
- Is not boring.
- Jailbait.
Basing Zelda off of how she appears in Smash is the entire point of this topic, so it's the one factor you can't just throw out.Okay, now you're being unfair. You are basing the other Zeldas off of what they originate from, but are failing to do the same for Ultimate Zelda. The official statement is that she is based on ALttP. So regardless of her visuals matching up with ALBW, we should go by the official statement.
My point is that you are listing a ton of traits Brawl Zelda has from her parent game and then talking about new Zelda using a completely different metric and expecting that we don't notice. It is blatant bias and it's really getting to the point where it's starting to seem immature. You keep basing Brawl Zelda off of her appearance in Twilight Princess, and yet you keep dismissing the legacy of ALttP/ALBW Zelda. I for one was ecstatic to see that ALBW's Zelda was in Smash, and I saw countless other comments of people glad to see her represented.Basing Zelda off of how she appears in Smash is the entire point of this topic, so it's the one factor you can't just throw out.
Sure Brawl Zelda doesn't actually sacrifice herself for Midna as her Down Special move, but she looks like the Zelda from TP that did that. Looking at her in Brawl subconsciously reminds you of that character. This is especially evident because disliking the personality of Zelda from that actual mainline game is why almost everyone says they disliked the Zelda in Brawl. Her expressions in Melee are actually the same in Brawl, yet no one complained about her being "boring" until the TP version. The visual models are nearly identical between OoT Zelda and Melee Zelda, and TP Zelda and Brawl/4 Zelda. Instant recognition for anyone who's played the games.
There is almost no visual correlation between ALttP Zelda's 8-bit sprite and the brand new remade 3D model we have in Ultimate. You can hardly even make out the dress in game. This is apparent if you go back and look at pretty much anyone's reasoning for liking Ultimate Zelda as a waifu. None of it has anything to do with her role or personality in ALttP. They're purely basing it off of her visuals and voice, none of which are from ALttP. Official statement or not, the people have spoken. Everything they like about Ultimate Zelda has nothing to do with her official base game.
However, if you go back and look at why people prefer Twilight Zelda, all of that reasoning leads back to her iteration in her base game. From her tighter more form-fitting dress that adds to her visual appeal (which is still the same as in TP), to her "boring" stoic, calm, serious demeanor that also originates from her game.
You can tell a lot, just off the appearance and demeanor of character. You can look at the background of this site and instantly tell what type of character they are. I haven't played the games of quite a lot of the cast and I still understand their character. "Personality" is a little more than just dialogue and actions.I'll honestly never understand how people think that Smash iterations of characters have their own personalities. Either they carried over their personality from their source game, or they have no unique personalty. Do Ice Climbers have a personality? Does Wolf? Does Mega Man? All they have are grunts, yells, one-liners and brief facial expressions. Anything deeper that rounds out an actual personality is derived or carried over from their source games/material, like Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Sonic and Mario.
Personalities are not unique, by definition or otherwise. Even IRL personalities fall into "stereotypes" and "cliches". Archetypes are the framework characters and personalities are built off of. If you don't have an archetype, you are likely not a character.You're right to say that SBBU Zelda is an archetype, but she doesn't have a personality. Personalities are, by definition, unique. Stereotypes and archetypes are not.
This is a meaningless statement. Anime is a medium and as such, is very broad and varied. That's like saying "a bunch of traits of an novel stereotype". If you were talking about a specific sub genre then sure, but talking about a medium on the whole, is silly.Like I said before, you can't describe her personality without just listing off a bunch of traits of an anime stereotype.
That is also a meaningless statement and Zelda isn't a very unique or complex character. The closest you could say, is SS Zelda, but all Zelda's are very heavy on those "anime stereotypes".There is nothing unique to her other than acute emotions, and that can't be said to the anywhere near the same degree as Ocarina, Twilight, Skyward, or especially BotW Zelda.
This could be said for literally anything ever. The whole point of character design, is to have those visual cues that tell you about a character. Look at any Smash character and you will get that feeling. Just looking at Ryu in the background, tells you of a tough, burly man, that likely has a thing for battle. There are quite a lot of similar characters, over a variety of franchises and mediums. I'm not sure what your obsession with uniqueness is about, but you are going to be hard pressed to find a completely unique Smash character, let alone a completely unique Zelda character, with the criteria you're laying out. Nintendo isn't exactly brimming with "unique" and deep, complex characters.You say you see a subtly in the details that gives her characterization, but all you really see is enough visual cues to call your mind to a waifu anime archetype. Then your mind links that archetype to other actual characters that share that archetype from, idk where. Anime, other JPRGs, even other Zeldas from past games. It's different for everyone. But it's not a unique personality you're seeing, it's just that you're drawn to the stereotype in general.
I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with tying Zelda back to her base game, but I'm pretty sure there is artwork of ALttP Zelda, that the sprite was based on. That link I posted has examples. And from what I can see, it looks very much like Ultimate Zelda. And that there are not one, but two games Ultimate Zelda is based on. So I don't know why you're so hung up on that aspect.Basing Zelda off of how she appears in Smash is the entire point of this topic, so it's the one factor you can't just throw out.
Sure Brawl Zelda doesn't actually sacrifice herself for Midna as her Down Special move, but she looks like the Zelda from TP that did that. Looking at her in Brawl subconsciously reminds you of that character. This is especially evident because disliking the personality of Zelda from that actual mainline game is why almost everyone says they disliked the Zelda in Brawl. Her expressions in Melee are actually the same in Brawl, yet no one complained about her being "boring" until the TP version. The visual models are nearly identical between OoT Zelda and Melee Zelda, and TP Zelda and Brawl/4 Zelda. Instant recognition for anyone who's played the games.
There is almost no visual correlation between ALttP Zelda's 8-bit sprite and the brand new remade 3D model we have in Ultimate. You can hardly even make out the dress in game. This is apparent if you go back and look at pretty much anyone's reasoning for liking Ultimate Zelda as a waifu. None of it has anything to do with her role or personality in ALttP. They're purely basing it off of her visuals and voice, none of which are from ALttP. Official statement or not, the people have spoken. Everything they like about Ultimate Zelda has nothing to do with her official base game.
However, if you go back and look at why people prefer Twilight Zelda, all of that reasoning leads back to her iteration in her base game. From her tighter more form-fitting dress that adds to her visual appeal (which is still the same as in TP), to her "boring" stoic, calm, serious demeanor that also originates from her game.
I didn't know that! Huh, that makes a lot of sense and puts her design into perspective. Thank you for teaching me something new today!Bopping in here again, to say that ALBW is known as ALttP 2 in Japan. Meaning they are supposed to take place in the same world and the same franchise. The two Zelda's are functionally the same design wise and Ultimate Zelda is likely a mix of both. Here is a page that I've found to explain the language quirks, that lead to the confusion.
While I'm here...
I mentioned earlier in this thread how Lucina's story is told through her kit. She wears Marth's clothes and fights like him, donning a mask in a taunt, so she must disguise herself as Marth. She grunts and yells a lot more than he does when she attacks, and also doesn't have a tipper; she is only emulating a fighting style and it isn't completely her own. It's really cool how well she fits as an echo fighter.You can tell a lot, just off the appearance and demeanor of character. You can look at the background of this site and instantly tell what type of character they are. I haven't played the games of quite a lot of the cast and I still understand their character. "Personality" is a little more than just dialogue and actions.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for articulating my thoughts better than I have been able to. I've been trying to say this for two pages of this thread.Personalities are not unique, by definition or otherwise. Even IRL personalities fall into "stereotypes" and "cliches". Archetypes are the framework characters and personalities are built off of. If you don't have an archetype, you are likely not a character.
This is a meaningless statement. Anime is a medium and as such, is very broad and varied. That's like saying "a bunch of traits of an novel stereotype". If you were talking about a specific sub genre then sure, but talking about a medium on the whole, is silly.
There is also nothing wrong with anime nor does that disqualify something from being a character. Video games and anime are part of the same sub culture sphere in Japan, so they are going to share the same traits and themes. It's not "anime", it's Japanese. By virtue of being a Japanese video game, it's going to be "anime", the vast majority of the time.
That is also a meaningless statement and Zelda isn't a very unique or complex character. The closest you could say, is SS Zelda, but all Zelda's are very heavy on those "anime stereotypes".
This could be said for literally anything ever. The whole point of character design, is to have those visual cues that tell you about a character. Look at any Smash character and you will get that feeling. Just looking at Ryu in the background, tells you of a tough, burly man, that likely has a thing for battle. There are quite a lot of similar characters, over a variety of franchises and mediums. I'm not sure what your obsession with uniqueness is about, but you are going to be hard pressed to find a completely unique Smash character, let alone a completely unique Zelda character, with the criteria you're laying out. Nintendo isn't exactly brimming with "unique" and deep, complex characters.
I'm not sure why you are so obsessed with tying Zelda back to her base game, but I'm pretty sure there is artwork of ALttP Zelda, that the sprite was based on. That link I posted has examples. And from what I can see, it looks very much like Ultimate Zelda. And that there are not one, but two games Ultimate Zelda is based on. So I don't know why you're so hung up on that aspect.
Right, this is the waifu topic. That's why I'm talking about appearances and dismissing legacies. Brawl Zelda's physical model appearance is an exact match to Twilight. Melee Zelda's model is an exact match to OoT's Zelda. Ultimate's Zelda is NOT a match to ALBW/ALttP Zelda. That's my only point. If you think it doesn't apply that's fine, but it's not wrong or misleading.My point is that you are listing a ton of traits Brawl Zelda has from her parent game and then talking about new Zelda using a completely different metric and expecting that we don't notice. It is blatant bias and it's really getting to the point where it's starting to seem immature. You keep basing Brawl Zelda off of her appearance in Twilight Princess, and yet you keep dismissing the legacy of ALttP/ALBW Zelda. I for one was ecstatic to see that ALBW's Zelda was in Smash, and I saw countless other comments of people glad to see her represented.
I never said she NEEDS to be anything. I made it clear it's just my preference. I absolutely loathe Princess Peach's personality in all her 3D iterations, and prefer TP Zelda, Lucina, Samus in no small part for being the polar opposite of that. But I'm not saying Nintendo should design new characters that way. They're gonna do what they're gonna do and I'm gonna hold to my opinions. Ultimate Zelda is actually more in the middle ground with Palutena, and that's perfectly fine.Furthermore, you act as though Zelda NEEDS to be this stoic character when we have seen more iterations of bubbly Zeldas than edgy Zeldas of late. The last and ONLY serious iteration of Zelda in the past ten years or so was in Twilight Princess HD and Ocarina of Time 3D. Meanwhile Skyward Sword, Wind Waker HD, Spirit Tracks, and Breath of the Wild have all had princesses who act exactly like this "new" one.
If anything, it was an oddity that Brawl Zelda made it into Smash 4.
I didn't say Twilight Zelda lacks an archetype. I said Ultimate Zelda is a stereotype but lacks a personalty because she didn't derive one from her base game.Personalities are not unique, by definition or otherwise. Even IRL personalities fall into "stereotypes" and "cliches". Archetypes are the framework characters and personalities are built off of. If you don't have an archetype, you are likely not a character.
-merriam-websternoun
per·son·al·i·ty | \ ˌpər-sə-ˈna-lə-tē
, ˌpər-ˈsna-\
plural personalities
Definition of personality
a : the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual or a nation or group especially : the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics
b : a set of distinctive traits and characteristics
especially : the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics
Don't forget she has victory phrases like, "Father, I won!", and wields the Parallel Falchion which is also integral to her story. I don't disagree here at all and this ties into what I was saying before. WTFI mentioned earlier in this thread how Lucina's story is told through her kit. She wears Marth's clothes and fights like him, donning a mask in a taunt, so she must disguise herself as Marth. She grunts and yells a lot more than he does when she attacks, and also doesn't have a tipper; she is only emulating a fighting style and it isn't completely her own. It's really cool how well she fits as an echo fighter.
You're welcome. And agreed, one of my favorite things about Smash, is the attention to detail regarding characters. You can really see the care that went into the representation.I didn't know that! Huh, that makes a lot of sense and puts her design into perspective. Thank you for teaching me something new today!
I mentioned earlier in this thread how Lucina's story is told through her kit. She wears Marth's clothes and fights like him, donning a mask in a taunt, so she must disguise herself as Marth. She grunts and yells a lot more than he does when she attacks, and also doesn't have a tipper; she is only emulating a fighting style and it isn't completely her own. It's really cool how well she fits as an echo fighter.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for articulating my thoughts better than I have been able to. I've been trying to say this for two pages of this thread.
You keep saying this, but there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. What is your reasoning for why Ultimate Zelda doesn't match her game, when all artwork shows otherwise?Right, this is the waifu topic. That's why I'm talking about appearances and dismissing legacies. Brawl Zelda's physical model appearance is an exact match to Twilight. Melee Zelda's model is an exact match to OoT's Zelda. Ultimate's Zelda is NOT a match to ALBW/ALttP Zelda. That's my only point. If you think it doesn't apply that's fine, but it's not wrong or misleading..
She has a base game and is based off of it. I posted a link about it, in the same post you are quoting. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't a personality. The whole reason why everyone likes her, is because she is full of personality and charm. A personality isn't a random list of facts about a person. like you keep posting. I'm blind in one eye and have moderate hearing loss, which impacts my life, but they aren't a part of who I am. Nor will anyone even know, unless I tell them or they have a keen awareness of detail.I didn't say Twilight Zelda lacks an archetype. I said Ultimate Zelda is a stereotype but lacks a personalty because she didn't derive one from her base game.
Ctrl+f unique: Phrase not found.
They may be main characters, but their personalities are different. Ike is rough, Marth is passive. They both no doubt fight for their friends, but it is pretty clear they are different personalities. It would look pretty bizarre to have Marth have a tough, aggressive demeanor and fighting style, and Ike to have a passive demeanor and elegant fighting style. I'm not sure how you find them similar, unless you are going by them both being main characters, they are pretty different.Same thing with Marth and Ike. Never played either of their games, and they both appear to be of the same stereotype to me. You could swap their voices and entire movesets and it wouldn't feel out of place to me at all. Does Ike really fight for his friends? I don't know, maybe? I have no idea if that phrase is specific or important to Ike's personality or not.
I said why in my quote you're replying to here:You keep saying this, but there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. What is your reasoning for why Ultimate Zelda doesn't match her game, when all artwork shows otherwise?
By "physical model appearance" I meant "in-game digitally rendered model" that appears on screen as you play the game... just like the in-game model of Zelda appears on screen as you play Smash.Brawl Zelda's physical model appearance is an exact match to Twilight. Melee Zelda's model is an exact match to OoT's Zelda. Ultimate's Zelda is NOT a match to ALBW/ALttP Zelda.
Sorry, I was talking about their main games here. Guess I never made that clear.They may be main characters, but their personalities are different. Ike is rough, Marth is passive. They both no doubt fight for their friends, but it is pretty clear they are different personalities. It would look pretty bizarre to have Marth have a tough, aggressive demeanor and fighting style, and Ike to have a passive demeanor and elegant fighting style. I'm not sure how you find them similar, unless you are going by them both being main characters, they are pretty different.
Oh, was I supposed to define "unique" instead of "personality"?Ctrl+f unique: Phrase not found.
Since you like the dictionary so much, I would suggest looking up the bold words. Distinctive and unique are not synonyms and the others aren't even in the same word category.
A green apple in a basket of red apples, has a complex of characteristics and distinctive traits that distinguishes it from red apples. If you observed a freak mutation that created a blue apple, that would be unique, but green apples aren't unique. Nothing in that page, said anything about personalities being unique.
Huh, and there are those bolded words you said weren't related.unique
adjective
\ yu̇-ˈnēk
\
Definition of unique
1 : being the only one : sole his unique concern was his own comfort I can't walk away with a unique copy. Suppose I lost it?— Kingsley Amis
2a : being without a like or equal : unequaled could stare at the flames, each one new, violent, unique— Robert Coover
b : distinctively characteristic : peculiar sense 1 this is not a condition unique to California— Ronald Reagan
c : able to be distinguished from all others of its class or type : distinct sense 1 You will see an assortment of digital tags that let the Web site identify your computer as a unique visitor.
a : the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual
the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics
b : a set of distinctive traits and characteristics
Uncanny. Hard to tell which is which.b : distinctively characteristic
c : able to be distinguished from all others of its class or type
...then now this has become a very deep psychological and social disagreement, far beyond a BS waifu argument over a stereotypical anime character in a video game.Personalities are not unique, by definition or otherwise.
My confusion, is why you are hung up on the models specifically. From what I understand from your posts, it seems like if they don't rip the model straight out of the game, they aren't proper representations to you. That's what I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around.I said why in my quote you're replying to here:
By "physical model appearance" I meant "in-game digitally rendered model" that appears on screen as you play the game... just like the in-game model of Zelda appears on screen as you play Smash.
Melee Zelda has the same 3D model that has the same N64-era graphics as the in-game model that Zelda had in Ocarina.
Same with Brawl Zelda, who also has the same 3D model that has the same Wii-era graphics as the in-game model that Zelda had in Twilight Princess.
But Ultimate Zelda's model is nothing like the 2D "8-bit"-era sprite that followed you around the castle in the opening level of ALttP. I also posted numerous photo examples in this very topic, including one showing how ALBW Zelda's model has far less graphical detail than Ultimate Zelda (Switch/WiiU graphics vs 3DS graphics), as well as having vastly different body proportions, such as her Wind Waker-esque oversized head.
Disagree if you must, just be clear on what I meant.
No? I Ctrl+f searched the personality definition page you linked and did not find the word unique anywhere on there. Not in the main definition, not in the synonyms, nowhere.Oh, was I supposed to define "unique" instead of "personality"?
And? Those are adjectives and adverbs, aka modifiers, they aren't synonyms to unique, which is what I originally said. You can even look in the synonyms section on the page you linked and still won't see them.Huh, and there are those bolded words you said weren't related.
So if I copy/paste just the definitions of unique and personality back to back...
It's pretty easy to tell, when you know their actual definitions.Uncanny. Hard to tell which is which.
which completely kills your line of argument.a : being without a like or equal
Um no. Individual implies a specific thing, as opposed to a group. The definition I was drawing from was:Also, your apple example only works if you omit the singular "individual" from the definition of personality and replace it with a plural "red apples" like you did. Just wanna be sure everyone else also saw that.
My apple example can work with both singular and plural or individual and group. Merely omit the "s" and then you have a comparison between two individual apple types. So:a : the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual or a nation or group
would work just fine. Maybe it's time to look up the definition of individual as well.A green apple in a basket with a red apple, has a complex of characteristics and distinctive traits that distinguishes it from that red apple. If you observed a freak mutation that created a blue apple, that would be unique, but green apples aren't unique. Nothing in that page, said anything about personalities being unique.
It really hasn't. Basic psychology and even the reality you can observe around you, can show you that personalities are not unique. "Unique" is a descriptor, "personality" is a state of being. Personalities can be unique, but aren't inherently unique. That would mean every personality would have to be completely distinct from one another and that just isn't true.However, if you're seriously going to stick to your assertion that:
...then now this has become a very deep psychological and social disagreement, far beyond a BS waifu argument over a stereotypical anime character in a video game.
I originally responded to you misusing and misunderstanding literary concepts. Go back and read it and you will see I wasn't addressing your dislike of Ultimate Zelda specifically, but you misusing those concepts to justify it. You are entitled to your opinion on liking Ultimate Zelda, but you are not entitled to your own facts regarding objective measurements and concepts. This ceased to be opinion based when you brought those into the discussion.The first thing you need to realize here is that this is an opinion thread. We're not arguing hitbox placements or whether something is possible within the game engine.
So stop asking for "evidence" and don't expect to be objectively correct.
I don't. I've played less than half the cast's original games and their personalities still shone through. Those that I have played, are a match to their original personalities. You don't need to have played their original game to understand what they are about.Now, it isn't only about Zelda's 3D in-game model. It's all the elements that create her on-screen presence in Smash. Just like with any character when you watch them fighting in Smash you think, "Oh hey, I remember that character doing that in [blah blah blah] video game!".
1. Again those are handheld games, of course their not going to have a detailed 3D model. That's why I mentioned concept art, Ultimate is going with the original vision. If you're going to give other games a free pass, then you shouldn't be so hung up on this one.1. Ultimate Zelda's HD design does not match her in-game 8-bit design from ALttP. Her proportions are also drastically off from ALBW, as someone in this topic put it, she "looks like an infant playing dress up".
2. Whatever personality type you think Ultimate Zelda has, that also has nothing to do with ALttP where she lacks any of the waifu traits that I quoted people raving about above.
3. As DarkStarStorm said, her moveset and special moves don't match ALttP (or any Zelda game) either.
4. Her animations, taunts and idle pose also don't originate from her stated base game.
Those "conditions" are completely arbitrary. They can influence, but aren't explicitly needed to portray a character. My original reply was about appearances and models specifically and you responded with animations and moves. And you said:Ness's moves are at least recognizable from his game. He's not an NPC only pulling moves that he never used in game.
Final Fantasy VII had over 30 minutes of included movie footage with high-detailed 3D renders of Cloud and others that was used for his model in Smash4. His taunt animations are also ripped from from the game battles.
Belmonts, again, are playable characters that have their moves pulled from their games, and even their strange standing stance is reminiscent of their in-game models.
Even the Ice Climbers have their jump animation pulled from their NES game, making them instantly recognizable to the Smash player.
Palutena has her 3D game model and also has moves from her battle with Pit while possessed in Uprising. She also has that anime short.
The only thing we can point to in order to trace Ultimate Zelda back to her officially stated base game is her dress design matching the concept art photo.
Just about every other character in the game satisfies one of those four conditions to be loyal to their base game. However if you find an example, such as Wolf for example that also doesn't satisfy these conditions, that only means that they also scarcely represent their base game iteration. There is no tu quoque fallacy here.
so Cloud still violates that. Even ignoring that, those "high-detailed 3D renders of Cloud" look suspiciously like the ALBW models. Not anything even close to how he looks in Smash.By "physical model appearance" I meant "in-game digitally rendered model" that appears on screen as you play the game... just like the in-game model of Zelda appears on screen as you play Smash.
You're the one who invoked the dictionary in the first place. I just actually read and understood it. And I have no idea what you're trying to say in the second sentence.....and all this definition stuff is just you arguing semantics... with a dictionary no less. Trying to play dumb and pretend that not even one of the quoted definitions of personality could refer to a single individual entity.
I don't even know where to begin with this. What relevance does this have with anything? How on earth am I supposed to answer a broad hypothetical, that doesn't give me the relevant details? What would I say to whether or not two people have the same personality, based on hypothetical answers and observations I haven't gotten or done? Yes or no depending on if they do or not, I guess.So let's cut to the chase so we can be done with this crap.
If I pluck two different humans from opposite sides of the globe, plop them next to each other so you could do all the observations and ask them all the questions to discover literally anything about them that you wanted... and then I asked you if they have the same personality, what would you say?
What if I then brought two genetically identical twins, the same in every conceivable "category" down to to spiritual views, political affiliation and temperament?
If you're referring to your Feb 20th post, then no. You just disagreed with my observational opinions. I said, "I see Zelda on screen and think X", and you said, "I can look at it and tell not only X, but also Y and Z."I originally responded to you misusing and misunderstanding literary concepts. Go back and read it and you will see I wasn't addressing your dislike of Ultimate Zelda specifically, but you misusing those concepts to justify it. You are entitled to your opinion on liking Ultimate Zelda, but you are not entitled to your own facts regarding objective measurements and concepts. This ceased to be opinion based when you brought those into the discussion.
I didn't omit anything. #1 *was* about appearances, and #2-#4 were additive. Still, with all these walls of text, I still can't seem to be detailed enough for you.Those "conditions" are completely arbitrary. They can influence, but aren't explicitly needed to portray a character. My original reply was about appearances and models specifically and you responded with animations and moves. And you said:
so Cloud still violates that. Even ignoring that, those "high-detailed 3D renders of Cloud" look suspiciously like the ALBW models. Not anything even close to how he looks in Smash.
And the rest barely skirt over your criteria. You again avoided mentioning models and those are all only one thing that ties them to their base game, like you are claiming Zelda only does. Wolf nothing, that applies to much of the cast. You don't need to be a 1-to-1 translation, you need to have the spirit of the character.
This is where it started:You're the one who invoked the dictionary in the first place. I just actually read and understood it. And I have no idea what you're trying to say in the second sentence.
No one said anything about not referring to a single individual entity. I said my apple example could apply to both single and group and quoted the exact definition where it did just that. Go back and actually read that post. And I'm supposedly the one arguing semantics.
I don't even know where to begin with this. What relevance does this have with anything? How on earth am I supposed to answer a broad hypothetical, that doesn't give me the relevant details? What would I say to whether or not two people have the same personality, based on hypothetical answers and observations I haven't gotten or done? Yes or no depending on if they do or not, I guess.
Are you asking in the second one, if you bring me two completely identical people in every way, whether or not they are identical in every way? Yes? I feel like this is supposed to setup a "gotcha", but I legit have no idea where you're going with this.
You tried to refute with:You're right to say that SBBU Zelda is an archetype, but she doesn't have a personality. Personalities are, by definition, unique. Stereotypes and archetypes are not.
So I quoted a Webster's definition of personality that explicitly states that personality is specific to an individual.Personalities are not unique, by definition or otherwise. Even IRL personalities fall into "stereotypes" and "cliches". Archetypes are the framework characters and personalities are built off of. If you don't have an archetype, you are likely not a character.
Yes, these two people will likely have different cultures, values, social statuses, interests and life experiences from the other. However, even if they do have similar cultures (Canada vs South Africa), they still will not have the same personality.If I pluck two different humans from opposite sides of the globe, plop them next to each other so you could do all the observations and ask them all the questions to discover literally anything about them that you wanted... and then I asked you if they have the same personality, what would you say?
Even if they are identical down to the last neuron and DNA strand, each twin will have their own unique personality, with measurable differences down to at least some degree, even if you have to observe them for hours on end to uncover it. They could both have the same personalty types, like being meek, or alphas, extroverts or introverts, or followers or leaders... but each of these is still only one characteristic of someone's entire personality that on the whole makes them different from every single other person on the planet.What if I then brought two genetically identical twins, the same in every conceivable "category" down to to spiritual views, political affiliation and temperament?
If you ignore 75% and only focus on the first paragraph, sure. If you actually read the rest, I was doing what I said I was.If you're referring to your Feb 20th post, then no. You just disagreed with my observational opinions. I said, "I see Zelda on screen and think X", and you said, "I can look at it and tell not only X, but also Y and Z."
Those aren't literary concepts. That's an anecdotal observation that is not consistent for literally every person who sees Zelda on screen in Smash.
Your suspicions are completely unfounded and I didn't say anything like that. What I actually said was:And if you really go back and read those posts, you'll still find me pressing the difference between an archetype and a personality. That was when I first suspected you didn't understand the hierarchy of the two and thought that a character could have a personality but not an archetype, but not the other way around. I disagreed immediately.
You can have an archetype but not a personality... but you cannot have a personality but not an archetype. That's pretty much what all generic NPCs in video games are. The subsequent definitions support this.
Nothing there or in any of my posts, implied you could have a personality but not an archetype or vice versa. You were the one that separated the two. And NPCs still have personalities and archetypes, you're confusing depth with personality. These are what I mean by literary concepts you don't understand.Personalities are not unique, by definition or otherwise. Even IRL personalities fall into "stereotypes" and "cliches". Archetypes are the framework characters and personalities are built off of. If you don't have an archetype, you are likely not a character.
About Zelda, not about the other characters I was referring to. Hence the "about the rest" in that post you clearly didn't read. #1 only referred to Zelda, not the characters I was talking about when I said that. It is quite literally all in the exact same paragraph that you quoted.I didn't omit anything. #1 *was* about appearances, and #2-#4 were additive. Still, with all these walls of text, I still can't seem to be detailed enough for you.
"Properties" you completely made up. The only criteria is whether you represented the spirit of the character. The "feeling" that characters have about. Everything else in there is completely arbitrary nonsense, based on your own made up rulebook. And again, you gave Cloud a free pass, while holding Zelda strict to her "in-game model". Her model is based on the original vision, so if other characters can get a free pass from your criteria, so should Zelda.A character does not need to have ALL FOUR properties, just at least one. You could even add a 5th or 6th if you can point it out on screen in Smash. Like I said, SSBU Zelda has none. You could argue that her 1991 concept drawing from ALttP is the one thin singular thread that barely ties that version of her to her new on-scsreen SSBU iteration, but like you claimed before, you specifically don't need to have played the original game to draw the correlation to it right?
By her design and overall feel and demeanor.So then tell me, without knowing about her base game, how could you tell she was ALttP or ALBW Zelda?
That has nothing to do with anything.The same way you can also somehow tell that Samus was once a whiny, insecure 20-something with crippling PTSD?
"Anime schoolgirl stereotype" doesn't mean anything. Schoolgirls aren't a personality nor are they a stereotype, anime or otherwise nor is Zelda a schoolgirl....or are you asserting that you can perceive her actual personality, beyond just the "anime schoolgirl" stereotype that I already granted her, just from her appearance in Smash? If so, then actually describe SSBU Zelda's personality, without using cues that are only from ALttP/ALBW.
It feels more like you're trolling me.I defy you.
So yes, you did invoke the dictionary first. No one said personalities weren't specific to an individual, just that not all personalities are unique. A personality not being specific, would mean it would be shared collectively and that's not true. You're using specific wrong here.So I quoted a Webster's definition of personality that explicitly states that personality is specific to an individual.
You can't be semantic about a word that is very explicit in its definition. And again, stop putting words in my mouth, I never said unique personalities didn't exist, I said personalities aren't inherently unique.Then you started playing semantics with the word "unique", ad nauseam. Doubling down on your statement that no two people can ever have unique personalities.
I didn't need to, you've been more than happy to throw every definition you didn't read at me. And they still don't even feature the word unique, let alone imply that personalities are inherently unique.It was also interesting that you didn't provide your own official published definition of personality, such as Oxford's: "The combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character."
...or Cambridge's: "the special combination of qualities in a person that makes that person different from others, as shown by the way the person behaves, feels, and thinks".
...or even Dictionary.com: "the sum total of the physical, mental, emotional, and social characteristics of an individual. /// the organized pattern of behavioral characteristics of the individual. "
I said personalities aren't inherently unique. If only we had someone who can comprehend simple dictionary definitions and tell the difference between distinct/different and unique.Anyone who can read and comprehend simple dictionary definitions can understand my incredulous reaction to you continuing to stick to your assertion that "Personalities are not unique."
I. Did. Not. Say. That. At all. I said personalities can be unique, but aren't inherently unique. I'll even quote my post again:So I asked two questions to see if you'd actually commit to saying that no two people from anywhere on the globe could ever possibly, conceivably ever have two completely distinctly unique personalities from each other.
"Unique" is a descriptor, "personality" is a state of being. Personalities can be unique, but aren't inherently unique. That would mean every personality would have to be completely distinct from one another and that just isn't true.
So as I suspected, it was something meaningless that you completely made up.conceptual psychology question
Yes, that is what I've been saying. Personalities aren't inherently unique, so that is possible. Read my posts.The only reason you would need details would be because you DO believe that there exists at least one scenario where two people will have exactly the same personality.
As someone that is actually studying another culture and the language that goes with it, I can say for sure that people are still the same. Nor does most of what you said have anything to do with personality. Culture and values, are shared by groups of people, social status doesn't have anything to do with personality, and interests and life experiences aren't totally unique from person to person.Yes, these two people will likely have different cultures, values, social statuses, interests and life experiences from the other. However, even if they do have similar cultures (Canada vs South Africa), they still will not have the same personality.
Those are characteristics and traits, not personality types. Alpha is a meme, born from a misunderstanding of an animal hierarchy. It's a position, not a personality. And the traits normally associated with it, are the exact opposite of what it actually is. Similarly with followers and leaders. There is no leader personality, same with follower. That's dumb masculine bull****, that is also a misunderstanding of how humans work. No one is a "leader" in everything. Nor is there personality traits, that allow you to become a leader. How good you are at whatever you're leading, determines whether people trust you enough to be an authority.Even if they are identical down to the last neuron and DNA strand, each twin will have their own unique personality, with measurable differences down to at least some degree, even if you have to observe them for hours on end to uncover it. They could both have the same personalty types, like being meek, or alphas, extroverts or introverts, or followers or leaders... but each of these is still only one characteristic of someone's entire personality that on the whole makes them different from every single other person on the planet.
Even as identical twins, it is impossible for two different people to have the exact same personality.
Once again, you are not entitled to your own facts. And don't invoke sociology like there haven't been extensive studies, on how things like social pressure and conditioning as well as other people, have an effect on shaping people and their personalities and ideas. People emulate their peers, out of fear of rejection. There are very few, who can break the mold and become someone unique. That is the very basics of human psychology. You will find plenty of people that share similar traits, behaviors, ideas, and psychology that we generally refer to as personality.So again, if you disagree with that, then we disagree on a fundamental physiological and sociological level and thus is why our entire discussion has been undermined from the start.
...or are you asserting that you can perceive her actual personality, beyond just the "anime schoolgirl" stereotype that I already granted her, just from her appearance in Smash? If so, then actually describe SSBU Zelda's personality, without using cues that are only from ALttP/ALBW.
How are you even going to be able to tell, whether I'm using cues or not? This has no purpose or relevance.
Last thing before I give you your final psych eval. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt again and assume that the concept I'm describing by using the word "personality" is a concept you do know and acknowledge, albeit by another term/word/phrase.I'll honestly never understand how people think that Smash iterations of characters have their own personalities. Either they carried over their personality from their source game, or they have no unique personalty.
What word would you replace "personality" with so that the above statement is true?Basic psychology and even the reality you can observe around you, can show you that personalities are not unique. "Unique" is a descriptor, "personality" is a state of being. Personalities can be unique, but aren't inherently unique. That would mean every personality would have to be completely distinct from one another and that just isn't true.
Let's take a stroll back through the topic, shall we?
Dumb Meme.jpg
Thanks. Your continued inability to answer this only proves my original assertion correct:
Hmm, it seems like I answered that question in my very first post. For all your question dodging accusations, you just ignored 90% of my post, to focus on this one thing that still has no relevance. You've been completely misconstruing my posts and putting words in my mouth, or making up dumb "psychology" questions that have no relevance or meaning, so you can pretend you "got me". When you can no longer spin something, you outright ignore it completely, so you can move onto the next inane argument. Of course I'm going to be wary of answering one of your "questions".New Zelda actually looks and acts the part of someone who's supposed to be in a cross-over fighting game with Nintendo characters. Her energetic tomboyishness, compliments her fighting style really well and in a way that the awkwardness of TP Zelda couldn't hope to match. The fire taunt has now become Zelda's take on the adrenaline-fueled muscle flex and her wave manages to be both cute and humiliating to her opponent and looks like something approaching human.
If the Phantom redesign gave her haphazard moveset purpose and finally tied everything together, then her character and personality redesign, did the same for her aesthetic.
You really are completely full of yourself, aren't you? Trying to role play as a psychologist, does not make you an actual psychologist nor does it qualify you to do any evaluations.Last thing before I give you your final psych eval.
No dude, you don't have the required linguistic knowledge to play with synonyms. And no doubt this is going to come in the form of another meaningless "conceptual psychology question" that you made up.Let's give you the benefit of the doubt again and assume that the concept I'm describing by using the word "personality" is a concept you do know and acknowledge, albeit by another term/word/phrase.
Did you just try to turn my post into a "fill in the blank" question? Really? That doesn't work at all. Those words do not fit where personality is. This has no relevance or bearing on anything nor it will prove anything. Stop trying to play psychological word games, you are completely out of your depth.What word would you replace "personality" with so that the above statement is true?
Depth?
Character?
Soul?
Psyche?
Identity?
with:You're right to say that SBBU Zelda is an archetype, but she doesn't have a personality. Personalities are, by definition, unique. Stereotypes and archetypes are not.
You are confusing lack of uniqueness and depth, with not having a personality. Nor does it being stereotypical and cliche, mean she lacks personality. And you're still using stereotypical wrong. That is what I was trying to get at and what I mean by you not understanding these concepts. Zelda doesn't lack a personality, otherwise you and others wouldn't be whining that it's not the one you like. You've been using these literary terms without understanding what they mean or how they are properly used. You also don't seem to understand how art works or what it tries to achieve. That's what that original post was doing, correcting all of your mistaken ideas. Ideas you, ironically given the discussion around uniqueness, have regurgitated from other places that are regurgitating memes from meme posters.Personalities are not unique, by definition or otherwise. Even IRL personalities fall into "stereotypes" and "cliches". Archetypes are the framework characters and personalities are built off of. If you don't have an archetype, you are likely not a character.
I wasn’t expecting you to actually take cues from ALttP, because, like I already made perfectly clear, there aren’t any. Nothing about SSBU Zelda’s supposed personality links back to the her base games in any way, shape or form. Anything you could use to describe her would have to come ONLY from Smash Ultimate and nowhere else. I even quoted you and multiple people in this very topic saying this same thing as an illustration of this. You’re easy to trigger and manipulate so I told you not to use cues as extra insurance that you wouldn’t try to create some BS link that’s not there.And speaking of dodged questions, in your hurry to post memes, it seems you didn't read the question you quoted. So I'll say it again, how are you going to be able to tell, whether I'm using cues or not? You just asked me to describe her without mentioning anything that can be tied back to her original game. How are you going to be able to tell whether I gleaned that from Ultimate or her base games? Is it from describing things that tie her back to her base game? You do realize it is completely impossible to avoid that right?
This whole time, THIS is what you think a personality is? A list of your opinions about her animations?New Zelda actually looks and acts the part of someone who's supposed to be in a cross-over fighting game with Nintendo characters. Her energetic tomboyishness, compliments her fighting style really well and in a way that the awkwardness of TP Zelda couldn't hope to match. The fire taunt has now become Zelda's take on the adrenaline-fueled muscle flex and her wave manages to be both cute and humiliating to her opponent and looks like something approaching human.
No, this was your last chance to demonstrate that you have the ability to listen to and comprehend another person and understand the concept they’re describing to you.Did you just try to turn my post into a "fill in the blank" question? Really? That doesn't work at all. Those words do not fit where personality is. This has no relevance or bearing on anything nor it will prove anything. Stop trying to play psychological word games, you are completely out of your depth.
I don't remember saying that at all, why do you put words in my mouth?I wasn’t expecting you to actually take cues from ALttP, because, like I already made perfectly clear, there aren’t any. Nothing about SSBU Zelda’s supposed personality links back to the her base games in any way, shape or form. Anything you could use to describe her would have to come ONLY from Smash Ultimate and nowhere else. I even quoted you and multiple people in this very topic saying this same thing as an illustration of this.
Once again, you didn't read my post and focused on some specific thing to take out of context, so you can misrepresent my point. I had more than that in there. I would clarify more, but it's clear you aren't being honest about all of this in the slightest, so I'm going to just let you reread until you understand/start being honest.This whole time, THIS is what you think a personality is? A list of your opinions about her animations?
No dude, you are completely making things up and constructing "questions" that are based on your own internal logic and views. Those aren't objective questions in the slightest and they don't make any sense nor do they have any merit or purpose. They don't do anything that contributes to the topic at hand at all.No, this was your last chance to demonstrate that you have the ability to listen to and comprehend another person and understand the concept they’re describing to you.
The point of the question to determine which was true out of the only two remaining possibilities:
How rude to the OP.it’s given me more insight into your psyche than many people I know at my company.
No, it's not. Dunning-Kruger is where people can't judge their own competence due to their lack of ability and where people with high ability can't judge other abilities in relation. Dumb people think they're smarter than everyone else, smart people don't realize other people are dumb. It's referring to relative misperception, not arrogance due to inexperience. You can be as experienced as you want, the other half of Dunning-Kruger is smart people also can't accurately judge their own abilities.This is called the Dunning–Kruger effect.
Since you seem to be bringing science into this, "theory" means something a little different. Theories in science, are containers for facts and observations relating to it, not things you pull out of your ass. They are a collective of all that's gone into that particular subject. Gravity is a theory, but I'm going to guess you're not going to be jumping off any skyscrapers anytime soon.It’s used by these people as a crutch for their opinions because they try to use current theories (that they claim are facts) to portray said opinions as facts that no one could ever disagree with.
Boy, you really have no idea. Frank Sinatra was an expert singer and absolutely oozed arrogance. If anything, having expertise or high ability, makes you more prone to being arrogant and thinking people are beneath you. Things aren't like they are in the movies.actual experts are not hostile or condescending to those they believe are beneath them.
In the movies, maybe. In reality, if you continuously misrepresent them, repeatedly ignore them, and try to challenge them from a position of ignorance, they will reveal they are in fact human and you'll be getting some stern words at best. Experts have probably the lowest tolerance of bull****. A few might be like that, but most will only be that superficially and have a pretty strict demand of you paying attention, and some are just complete jerks.They take a teaching or mentoring approach, first trying to understand where that person is coming from in the first place.
When you're not doing it from grounds they've already tread. You have an overly idyllic view on experts.When you do actually come across someone who is truly wise in a certain field of expertise, you’ll notice that they are open to the idea of criticism and being wrong, consider all alternative stances and avenues to their own and try to learn as much as they can from their opponents.
Their "made up questions" not yours. There is a difference.They often do this in form of “made up questions”, lol.
Ignorance has no relevance or bearing on this. People in real life say "pokeymans" or "cartoon porn". Most of the time they just say "asian cartoons" or "Japanese cartoons". The only place I have ever heard "anime schoolgirl" was on the internet, from specific people, from specific places. They definitely don't say it in my "demographic".The issue here is that you’re so into this genre, are so exposed to it that the nuances and differences between every single anime girl in a seifuku are more apparent to you than to the vast majority of the population, even your own age group.
Finally, were getting somewhat back on topic. People in my "demographic" hate that nonsense and would ridicule you.I don’t even have to describe what it is, I can simply say “anime schoolgirl” to practically anyone in your demographic and they’ll immediately know what I’m referring to.
You even showed a fragile raw sensitivity to someone just using the word "anime".
Using the word is fine, misusing it is not. You are characterizing Japanese traits and themes as anime. Every Japanese medium will have them. I clarified this in my initial post on this matter, please read.There is also nothing wrong with anime nor does that disqualify something from being a character. Video games and anime are part of the same sub culture sphere in Japan, so they are going to share the same traits and themes. It's not "anime", it's Japanese. By virtue of being a Japanese video game, it's going to be "anime", the vast majority of the time.
So long as you win the like war, lol. Since you like fancy terms so much, I'll leave an interesting link that's relevant to this quote. You can pass it on to the posters too cowardly to challenge my views and have to talk behind my back.I’ve received various Likes and PMs in support of my arguments in here, so there are plenty of people who can understand what I’m saying whereas you simply can’t or won’t.
I'm sure you already know what's coming, but opinion editorial style opinion topics, doesn't mean anything. Please stop forcing big words and fancy terms to make yourself sound smarter. Just say opinion topic.op-ed style opinion topics such as this.
This would have been awesome. I'd even have been OK if it was as slow and large as Lucas' UpSmash, as long as it meant people didn't fall out of the multi-hits like they did in every game until they tried to patch it in Sm4sh.Also this should have been up smash since Melee
View attachment 196264
It's a clear reference, it'll have more vertical range, and it just looks cooler.
GGs.You've added nothing of substance in these last four or five posts, so I've gotten everything I need out of you, kid.