So Lucario is mid tier...

[LordoftheMorning]

I'd be willing to contribute to this as well. I have a mic so I could provide commentary on some matches and whatnot.

 

[iRJi]

I am currently working on the post now. Will be up either today or tomorrow.

Edit: Posted Thread. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236677

 

[Aurasmash14]

well it seems like the boards are in for a change of pace. lets hope we can keep the momentum.

 

[Saltix]

Well if we're to start revamping things, people have to be willing to start doing stuff.
Now I can bring back the metagame threat, (simple bump).

But I have an idea, along the lines of a video series. I've been talking to milln about it, and perhaps he's still gun-ho about it.

Playing Lucario, The ropes.
Its a sports commentary on videos of lucario gameplay. with the freeze frames, and yellow marks. But at the same time making it informative, with guest speakers. Oh and using videos from youtube carios and videos ppl send in.

I'm willing to begin this if people want to. Its like the Inner-fire of 09.
But again, thats a meh.
-t2

Yeah hea heaa.
I've got some recent vids to give you for this project. Gangstacario's back baybeee

and as far as everything else goes, man the **** up, play lucario, and ****.
We KNOW he can do it... look at past results. People just wanna play their MKs and Snakes now, and I bet a few of you are gonna switch off of Luc due to the new tier list. Lucario *****. The players don't. End of Story.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Here's the new Aggression guide on Lucario:

Don't.


Also, RK is wrong by default. The reason the Sonic mains are thriving is because they have good players getting him high placings at tournaments.

Most Sonic mains are meh, but those few good ones are the ones keeping him up there. Hell, quite a surprising amount think that Sonic is too high now and needs to go down a few spots.

The reason Sonic mains are thriving is because they found his play style unique, decided to work around his weaknesses, and greatly improve on his strengths, coming up with new and inventive ways to pay him.

The most influential Sonic main I'd have to say has to be Malcolm. He's dedicated to Sonic.

And what you said about the Lucario aggression guide, as someone else said, that's the reason the Luca boards are dying out, they won't try to advance his metagame, they are just sure his metagame is staying put. They won't take any incentive to advance him, except for the like 4 dedicated mains. Now the Luca boards just seem ridiculously negative and unpleasant to be in.

 

[iRJi]

Posted Thread. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236677

I will review and fix/add when I wake up. I literally got 2 hours of sleep x_x

 

[|RK|]

ugh RK...

pretty much everyone knew Kirby would be higher than Lucario, hes clearly a better character and much easier to win with vs majority of the cast.

No one replied to your threads because they were either extremely situational (extreme awesome which doesnt work on any tourney legal stages iirc?) and anything else you suggested had been suggested in the past, but were ignored it as it was shown to be a waste of time and better options are available.

lol, no. I actually posted about it in a previously made thread. The thread picked up a bit once smarter members found out what it was about, but most of it was me re-explaining it to newer people, then it died at page 6. Milln actually contributed quite a bit. And the threads died for lack of activity. So, although trolling me is fun, you couldn't be more wrong. Also, every thread I made got responses minus one I requested closed because I had already made too much threads.

Trolling me doesn't make people cool, and from here on out, I will ignore such trolls.

Also, dj, you seem to be a good Sonic, so we should Brawl :D

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Wow, just like that? Awesome! 2 new threads already. Let's do this ****!

 

[Trela]

Haha. Nice.

We are AWAKENING.

I need to start helping also...

 

[iRJi]

Haha. Nice.

We are AWAKENING.

I need to start helping also...

Join the fun =D. everyone is helping everyone, that makes no exception to you lol.

 

[Dark Paladin X]

I was expecting those people dropping Lucario by few points in the tier lists. Frankly, I don't care.

The possible is that most people often use higher tier characters like Meta Knight and Snake (or Marth). When they do so, they would be like: "OMG! I'm going to win the tournament because I chose Snake." Well, guess who would laughing if Lucario beats Snake. My theory is that there aren't a lot of Lucario players when it comes to tournaments.

 

[tedward2000]

My theory is that there aren't a lot of Lucario players when it comes to tournaments.

Your theory is correct, there isnt really.
-t2

 

[iRJi]

Your theory is correct, there isnt really.
-t2

I was expecting those people dropping Lucario by few points in the tier lists. Frankly, I don't care.

The possible is that most people often use higher tier characters like Meta Knight and Snake (or Marth). When they do so, they would be like: "OMG! I'm going to win the tournament because I chose Snake." Well, guess who would laughing if Lucario beats Snake. My theory is that there aren't a lot of Lucario players when it comes to tournaments.

That really isn't the main issue. I just started the topic like that because its something everyone can participate in, and can relate to. Despite the fact that Lucario "might" have little representation at tournaments, its how the little representation places throughout the tournament that matters.

Edit: thats my first time Multi-Quoting. never knew how until now lol.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I still dunno how to multi quite. lol.

 

[Lovely]

I still dunno how to multi quite. lol.

You press the multi quote button and to type your post, you click quote on the last person you want to quote.

Anyways, to tell you the truth, I think Lucario was overrated to begin with. I'm mean I'm not saying he's a bad character, just that in the past he was seen in many tourney's, well the one's I've been to at least.

 

[iRJi]

You press the multi quote button and to type your post, you click quote on the last person you want to quote.

Anyways, to tell you the truth, I think Lucario was overrated to begin with. I'm mean I'm not saying he's a bad character, just that in the past he was seen in many tourney's, well the one's I've been to at least.

No one is going to attack you lol. A lot of people thought he was overrated, well... for the current meta game anyway. If anything we are going to prove from this point that he deserves a higher spot. Isn't that right everyone? =3

 

[DusK-The-Stray]

After reading this thread, I felt compelled to help in any way, but I didn't have any idea how I could sense I just recently (About a month ago) started maining "Lulu" err I mean Lucario, (Thanks to this board, it helped me a lot when I started to main Lulu). But then I was thinking, and it just dawned on me sense I haven't seen this yet, how about combining down grab and Uair?

I tested this out but only against the cpu sense I have a lack of human opponents at the moment, so I need for someone else who can test this out against a competent player.

What I tried was the following:

At low percentages, D Grab > Short hop Uair > Bair. kinda like sonic's spin to bair
Different string I tried, D Grab > short hop Uair but not directly under or past the opponent > Fair > Nair. Variation on that would be: D Grab > Short hop Uair > Nair anywhere near opponent > Possible AS. (At least to the extent I could test)

At mid Percentages. D Grab > Normal Uair > Bair. a little more efficient than at low percentages. Different string I tried, D Grab > Uair directly under > second jump > Fair > Fair or Nair. More Variation, D Grab > Uair not directly under or past opponent > Fair > Fair or Nair > Possible AS (May substitute first Fair for Nair)

At high percentages, may depend on character wait, it will change from D Grab to U Grab, but for the sake of it I'll continue to say D Grab, D Grab > Uair > Fair or Nair > possible AS

Mostly this, imo, is basically a variation on the tried and true U Grab > Fair > Fair or Nair, but I thought it was interesting and tried my best to contribute, also if this already was discovered and proved useless, than sorry but I didn't have enough time to read through some of the threads here. Though I do think these may be viable options to add to Lulu's game.

Thanks for reading...

Edit: Totally forgot to mention that it may need a fair amount of prediction to hit with this and (As far as I could test) is very easy to counter with a multi-hit Dair, Example, D3 and Wario's Dair

 

[Timbers]

Now thats the motivation that I love to hear. That is exactly what im talking about. Lucario in my opinion deserves high tier, we just have to demonstrate it. anyone up for revamping the Lucario boards? Not just the boards either, revolutionizing our gaming style.

Everyone except Kirby and maybe ROB totally deserve their spots on the tier list.

Luc needs some good kill setups and in the entire time I've played Luc he has none except aurasphere, and aurasphere doesn't really kill that early lol.

Well, it does, but I think it's totally needed during the entire duration of a lot of his matches, and not saved as a killer. There's a lot of opponents that would just wreck Luc if he didn't have aurasphere.

 

[WakerofWinds]

Yes. Everyone on the tier list deserves their spots. Deserves. Right now. It's been said before, Lucario players simply sat back and let the tier list do the work. Other characters tried to improve themselves, while Lucarios did not.

Well, that's whats been said anyway.

Saying a character deserves it's spot isn't the same as a character being at it's perfect spot. It's possible... possible, but (EXTREMELY) unlikely, that we'll (or you'll, the lucario community in general, the BRAWL community in general) will find some game breaking mechanic that totally changes the tier lists entirely. Who knows? Maybe Ganondorf has some broken mechanic that lets him Warlock punch in 2 frames (lol what?).

Basically what I'm trying to say with all that BS above is that Lucario deserves his spot currently, but that doesn't mean he won't move up in the future.

Like you said Timbers, we just need to figure out something to get better kill setups. When we do that, we can move up again.

 

[Timbers]

I'm not trying to down this sudden inspiration at all, it's just I'm totally not expecting anything to come of this really. Even when the boards were super active and trying to discover major things to Lucario's game, we found nothing we hadn't already found within the first 3 or 4 months of the game's release.

Luc definitely needs legit kill setups though. As it is, even with aura you're still desperately trying to land kills, because the only thing you can really land with Luc consistantly is fair, jabs, grab, utilt, and sometimes uair. It's super hard to land anything else against competent characters (yeah aurasphere is still hella difficult to land. It zones really nicely but it is very slow and very easy to avoid unless you're one of the few characters that are prone to becoming helpless upon landing)

That is seriously the only thing that he needs here. I've been experimenting with more aggressive aurasphere play offstage, and it works, but you also risk the less than appealing uB recovery should the opponent predict it and you're left against a fully capable opponent who probably outranks your recovery options to the ledge and the stage.

Dsmash also works against characters who expect you to go airborne and they brace it with an airdodge. Catch landing frames with dsmash.

Fsmash is ballllsssssssss against a lot of the cast. If you land fsmash you land it because they ****ed up terribly. Like the only thing I can praise myself for on landing fsmash is trapping characters with ****ty aerial movement on the edge and abusing landing frames or **** like reading a tornado.

 

[WakerofWinds]

I completely agree with you Timbers, like, really well, more like 99%. I think Lucario has more potential than most people give him credit for. At this point it seems as though the best way to improve his meta game is to find a play style that allows for quick fsmashes or other kill moves. Seems like his current meta game relies too much on AS, although, I'll admit, it is an EXTREMELY good move, it can't be both a super-awesome-mind-game-inducing-opponent-tricking-damage-racking-claw-licking move AND a kill move. Well, clearly, it is, but it shouldn't need to be.

Best thing to do to solve this dilemma: Play friendlies and do your best to kill in any way possible... without using Aura Sphere. Find ways to set up slow strong moves like FSmash. And maybe one day USmash will actually be awesome, and not just okay sometimes when your opponent messes up big-time.

 

[D. Disciple]

Any stage with a platform works well with Usmash. If they fall on the stage, read the tech with an usmash.

 

[Timbers]

Best thing to do to solve this dilemma: Play friendlies and do your best to kill in any way possible... without using Aura Sphere. Find ways to set up slow strong moves like FSmash. And maybe one day USmash will actually be awesome, and not just okay sometimes when your opponent messes up big-time.

Uair, dair, sometimes nair, rarely AS/fsmash= my kill moves.

The rest of his moves like don't kill until ridiculous percents lol. Except for usmash that is basically saying hey kill me with something totally OP because there is no hitbox or dsmash which is hella unsafe on block (but I kind of feel like I'm forcing myself to resort to it in some situations, trying to find if the risk/reward is actually worth it..because there definitely is risk.)

Any stage with a platform works well with Usmash. If they fall on the stage, read the tech with an usmash.

Pretty much but you're still working 100% on prediction. Usmash is too slow to use on reaction so it's like they're hella safe if they don't roll into your usmash frame perfectly. I personally like nair on platforms as it covers hella distance and first hit nair does have a pretty good kick to it. If they're on the edge of platforms it's possible to utilt them off the plat into a dsmash.

 

[The_Rake]

I love using bair as a kill move off stage, ive done loads of practicing with it and now i can really get some good kills with it jumping off stage and forcing foes away.
I totally agree with you timbers, lucario has a lack of a viable kill move, but quite a few of his moves tend to have decent knockback keeping your foe away. Seems like an oxymoron really :S
I think most lucario players underestimate double team, sure, it has huge risk/reward (especially at high percentages) but if you cans et it up it's awsome. Truth be told, I use it very sparingly and throw it in occasionally to catch my opponent off guard but with most foes when you're both around 100% it'll ko

 

[D. Disciple]

Pretty much but you're still working 100% on prediction. Usmash is too slow to use on reaction so it's like they're hella safe if they don't roll into your usmash frame perfectly. I personally like nair on platforms as it covers hella distance and first hit nair does have a pretty good kick to it. If they're on the edge of platforms it's possible to utilt them off the plat into a dsmash.

Well yeah, you still need that prediction. But it's a good alternate if you can tell how much they roll through out the game, when they tech the ground.

But for other uses when they are the platforms, would definitely be nair, bair works too. But Nair would probably be the best out of the three that were mention since he has a hitbox around him.

 

[Timbers]

I love using bair as a kill move off stage, ive done loads of practicing with it and now i can really get some good kills with it jumping off stage and forcing foes away.
I totally agree with you timbers, lucario has a lack of a viable kill move, but quite a few of his moves tend to have decent knockback keeping your foe away. Seems like an oxymoron really :S
I think most lucario players underestimate double team, sure, it has huge risk/reward (especially at high percentages) but if you cans et it up it's awsome. Truth be told, I use it very sparingly and throw it in occasionally to catch my opponent off guard but with most foes when you're both around 100% it'll ko

It's not even the risk of DT that really pisses me off about it. It's if you actually counter a move in this game, most of the time they're not in enough lag to actually be hit by it, so they just shield it and punish a successful counter. How dumb.

 

[WakerofWinds]

Risk and Reward

Isn't Lucario a character pretty much based off of high risk high reward? (Then again, isn't smash? And most fighting games for that matter?) I mean let's look at it, the farther behind you are the higher your damage goes. You accept the risk of playing Lucario the second you click on him. You're going to have to take risks every once and awhile, or you'd never get a kill (Well you would, because eventually you'd force your opponent into a mistake... but then you'd take a risk, so, I dunno.) Anyway... I'm sure you see my point. Maybe the key is just finding some random combo that goes right into fsmash. Maybe crawling is more useful than we thought, who knows? (I'm sure you all do... actually, I'm very sure you all do know, oh well :D you see my point)

 

[Timbers]

You can be a skillful player and be smart to survive to super high percents for aura boosts.

No amount of skill can make DT legit against low lag moves.

Anyways Lucario being high risk/high reward is the reason he's not top tier.

 

[Alus]

Isn't Lucario a character pretty much based off of high risk high reward? (Then again, isn't smash? And most fighting games for that matter?) I mean let's look at it, the farther behind you are the higher your damage goes. You accept the risk of playing Lucario the second you click on him. You're going to have to take risks every once and awhile, or you'd never get a kill (Well you would, because eventually you'd force your opponent into a mistake... but then you'd take a risk, so, I dunno.) Anyway... I'm sure you see my point. Maybe the key is just finding some random combo that goes right into fsmash. Maybe crawling is more useful than we thought, who knows? (I'm sure you all do... actually, I'm very sure you all do know, oh well :D you see my point)

If this theory actually took effect...Ganon mains would win... because every move is high risk high reward...

It isnt really high risk/high reward... those kind of combat each other in fighting games

Is the risk really worth the reward?...ask yourself that... this sometimes decides when a move is good or not...

though having the risk overwhelm your decisions, do attract a crowd sometimes...

 

[WakerofWinds]

If this theory actually took effect...Ganon mains would win... because every move is high risk high reward...

It isnt really high risk/high reward... those kind of combat each other in fighting games

Is the risk really worth the reward?...ask yourself that... this sometimes decides when a move is good or not...

though having the risk overwhelm your decisions, do attract a crowd sometimes...

True about Ganon mains :D

Doesn't it always decide whether a move is good or not? The reward based off of the amount of risk? I'm just saying-- yeah, you know what I'm saying.

I seem to kill a lot with dair, probably moreso than anything else really, then again I tend to save it for times when I'd really be able to kill.

And also I stand corrected.

 

[phi1ny3]

Of course he's not, but this warrants some play aspects to make him possibly more deserving in the A tier.
You don't do DT against low moves like that, I usually will only try for at most tilts.
imo, RDT is very useful for zoning in on falco while he's lasering, since he can't do much to trick you out of the big boost besides changing the timing, and it's one of the few projectiles that at the start you don't need to predict, you can time it from when it sounds or fires and voila, you are within SH distance from falco without having to run the risk of getting hit by mistiming other things, and if you do it right (don't use it for approach, only to close the distance) I find it a near reliable tactic. It works to a much lesser extent against pit arrows, grenades, din's fire, needles, t-jolt, fox lasers, etc. but it's still useful to know

 

[Kitamerby]

The reason Sonic mains are thriving is because they found his play style unique, decided to work around his weaknesses, and greatly improve on his strengths, coming up with new and inventive ways to pay him.

The reason sonic mains are thriving is because everyone keeps underestimating them. <<

And what you said about the Lucario aggression guide, as someone else said, that's the reason the Luca boards are dying out, they won't try to advance his metagame, they are just sure his metagame is staying put. They won't take any incentive to advance him, except for the like 4 dedicated mains. Now the Luca boards just seem ridiculously negative and unpleasant to be in.

Going aggressive is riskier, less rewarding overall, and is in general a bad idea for a defensive character like Lucario. Sure, it can help sometimes, but usually it's a bad idea. We're not exactly equipped like MK for it. Take M2K for instance. Against other characters, he's aggressive as hell because nobody can really deal with it. However, once he fights another campy player using the same character or a character who gays M2K harder than he can keep up the pressure, he either goes campy himself or loses. Examples? M2K vs. Dojo, M2K vs Tyrant recently, etc.

Going offense with a character ill-equipped is suicide and nothing more. Brawl is gay and campy. Sadly, in most matchups that matter, we are unable to go aggro without SERIOUS risk for little reward compared to campy.

Trust me, I wish brawl was less campy, and that Lucario could go aggro on more characters, but we just can't. We're just not equipped for it.

The most influential Sonic main I'd have to say has to be Malcolm. He's dedicated to Sonic.

Malcolm quit Sonic a few days ago completely and is going 100% Wario from now on, hahaha.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I agree with what you said about Luca not being as aggressive as MK, but it doesn't hurt to know what to do when you have the chance to go aggressive.

I wish Brawl wasn't AS campy, I play Snake campy to an extent, but nothing ridiculous like the Japanese players.

And did Malcolm really quit Sonic?

 

[hough123]

Going aggressive is riskier, less rewarding overall, and is in general a bad idea for a defensive character like Lucario. Sure, it can help sometimes, but usually it's a bad idea. We're not exactly equipped like MK for it. Take M2K for instance. Against other characters, he's aggressive as hell because nobody can really deal with it. However, once he fights another campy player using the same character or a character who gays M2K harder than he can keep up the pressure, he either goes campy himself or loses. Examples? M2K vs. Dojo, M2K vs Tyrant recently, etc.

Going offense with a character ill-equipped is suicide and nothing more. Brawl is gay and campy. Sadly, in most matchups that matter, we are unable to go aggro without SERIOUS risk for little reward compared to campy.

Trust me, I wish brawl was less campy, and that Lucario could go aggro on more characters, but we just can't. We're just not equipped for it.

Ah Kita, always the pessimist, but always right

Your argument is somewhat flawed because you compare MK to Lucario, they are very different. MK is MADE to be uber aggressive, Lucario was made to be versatile. I agree with you that Lucario can't go pure aggro 100% of the time, but unlike MK, Lucario can change his play style. If an opponent is gaying Lucario, Lucario has the tools to gay his opponent right back. Though we both know that he doesn't do this well. That's why we are trying to break away from the "0mG hE 0UtRanGE us, sp@m AS |0|" mindset. Ph1l's definition of "Defensive Playstyle" even includes at the end that you turn up the heat to exploit you opponent's weaknesses, a basic way of playing aggressively.

Wow, Lucario boards have gotten nasty in the last month D:
Arguments all over the place as opposed to the usual Chill'd chocolate parties in the IRC.

 

[phi1ny3]

actually, MK's aggro game is only needed on very good projectile pressure games.
Otherwise like vs. marth or G&W, he can get very campy (and very, very gay).

 

[hough123]

actually, MK's aggro game is only needed on very good projectile pressure games.
Otherwise like vs. marth or G&W, he can get very campy (and very, very gay).

Well shoot.
Meh, the rest still holds without the bashing of his argument.

 

[phi1ny3]

I have to say, fair has hitboxes where there shouldn't be (I've looked more carefully at where it hits, and it's pretty awesome, despite it not being entirely marth league).

 

[WakerofWinds]

I'd have to agree... brawl is a campy game overall. However, the best example of two characters REALLY going at it right off the bat was at APEX (in my opinion, anyway, it was pretty awesome). Ally vs M2K in grand finals. Man that was some intense playing right there. But even then at the end, Ally got campy and had M2K on the run.

So unfortunately... playing aggressive can have its rewards, especially when your opponent doesn't expect it. But playing a balanced play style between aggressive and defensive will probably get you the greatest reward for the lowest risk.

On the note about fair: I've used it a couple of times vs people who didn't expect that, works pretty well every once and awhile.

 

[Kitamerby]

actually, MK's aggro game is only needed on very good projectile pressure games.
Otherwise like vs. marth or G&W, he can get very campy (and very, very gay).

However, the point is that he CAN actually play aggressive and win that way, even on the characters he can camp (other than in a MK ditto/Wario matchup). Lucario's sorta forced into it.

 

[dguy6789]

Guys are slackin..