So...none items user....cant adapt?

[A New Challenger]

The best players can play you item using scrubs, run about, grab the items first and chuck them off the stage to limit your 'displays of skill.' Then we continue to pwn the hell out of you.

Items on = party game. Items off = fighting game. I like fighters better, thanks.

 

[DanteSmash7]

You know, unrelated, but there's some things I just don't like hearing over and over in these threads.

- Apparently, Bob-Ombs spawn ALL the time, and always IN YOUR FACE. That's impressive.
- Hammers are some how unstoppable instant win buttons, despite the fact that your foe can't do anything except flail the hammer and jump a single time.

Haha! So true... but yeah. Even the hammer can be a lose of a stock. You know what the problem is I think. Too many none item users are blocking with their faces.

Many different ways to stop a hammer and yes even a golden hammer.

-mista_mista

Pointing out the fact that it takes more skill to use items than not. And I have gotten a lot of PM's to "how are you sooo good in none item battles." When say I play tons of item battles. People are like "What?".

But thats how a player gets better. And even fighting games use item, to who ever was the dild.o that said that. (A party game, thats hella cute)

 

[Frey]

Haha, I know, they (none item users) corner to this worst case scenario that apparently "happens all the time". Like I said if thats the case, it isn't the system. Its you (the player). Practice makes perfect.

-Frey

If you happen to throw a smash ball, many tactics you can use. Esp since you are a power house. Mind you a fox needs to hit "it" way more times than you. One good hit from you and you have the smash ball. Plus you can always knock it out of them. Item Battles have helped me tons in regards to mastering how to evade supers.

Yes, thats right even the landmaster.

and about that, it takes 2 of his aerials to break it, and you faced land master noobs, You cant dodge a good one, if your on a small to normal stage.

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

The OP is an idiot. Ignore him and let this topic die.

 

[Oi Kyon]

1. Adapting overall gameplay (Some chars have the ability to produce items, peach, king deedeedee, are you gonna bit.ch each time that happens?)

2. It forces you to dodge more because you have incoming items at you, and evade more as well.

3. It brings a balance to the game. (Some chars have several projectiles, if a player spams them on idk, lets say marth. Marth/Ike players are done for)

Since some characters already have items what point is there to make items pop up randomly, and make people win by luck. And characters have projectiles that NEED skill to use well.

And for #3. You must be playing n00bs then.

 

[Thino]

Assuming OP isnt a troll , items do take skill to use but they are random .
the matter is not adapting to this randomness , its that this randomness is unfair regardless or the players skill. if an item spawns close to an opponent and you're far ,that doesnt necessarily means this opponent is faster than you and no matter how you practice you would never be able to catch it before him.

 

[Xengri]

Just wondering why none item users are so scared to battle with them. Thats why I made the thread. And while you bring up some "okay" points Xen. Its not a matter of opinion its, fact.

I beg to differ.

1. Adapting overall gameplay (Some chars have the ability to produce items, peach, king deedeedee, are you gonna bit.ch each time that happens?)

Alot of people bring this up, and, I always thought the differences where obvious.

Off the top of my head ( I might miss some) the only move set random occurrences I can think of is Peach's turnips, DDD's waddles, G&W's Hammer/flag thing, and Luigi's missile. All of which are nowhere as drastic as random items. Especially since you know what may happen within that time frame (of them doing the attack).


Peach's turnips sometimes pull out bombs, which the opponent can see from a mile away.
Very different from a bomb dropping on top of you when you just did a Ftilt or, one walking into you right as you land on the ground.


DDD's waddles, he throws them immediately. You know it's coming so you're suppose to dodge it regardless anyway.
So whether it's the normal one, the one with the beam or, the spike ball thing ( I don't know any of their names) you know something is being thrown at you so you prepare to dodge it.
They have different projectories(Sp?) sure, but nothing to drastic.
Once again, different from a heart spawning right next to your opponent or, you're hammer's head falling off.


G&W's hammer is random but, also close range. Getting hit by it is just like getting hit by any other attack except, sometimes you get lucky and nothing happens or sometimes you did at 30%. You're attack is taking a risk too.
Besides, the chances aren't good anyway, I've never really seen someone spam this move, and win.


Luigi's missile, same thing with peach. You know when it can happen and what will happen if it does. If you're using it for recovery then, plan accordingly, knowing you might overshot.
If you're using it as a attack, people do this?
Anyway, if you are, you can always make sure that you'll be able to get back if you do overshoot.
With items you can't do that. It'll happen anytime, anywhere, and (depending on/how many items you have on) you'll have no way of preparing for what will happen.
You can try moving away from a newly opened Pokeball thinking you might avoid Snorelax, Just to get hit in the face by Latios.

2. It forces you to dodge more because you have incoming items at you, and evade more as well.

Right, but all at a potentially unfair random chance. I'd rather have my opponent put the offensive pressure on me, not with random spawns helping him out.

3. It brings a balance to the game. (Some chars have several projectiles, if a player spams them on idk, lets say marth. Marth/Ike players are done for)

Marth and Ike do just fine without projectiles, trust me...

And It would be less balance because faster characters would have yet another advantage.
If you thought Gannon V. Fox was a unfair match up before...

Let me know what you think Xen, you seem to want to JOIN THE ITEM SIDE. Muahaha!?

No thanks, I'll pass.
I'll admit some items are ok, and aren't nearly as game changing as others but, I prefer it to just be me Vs. my opponents moveset and how he uses it.


~
Playing RO and posting on forums is a hard thing to Mulititask.

 

[SenorPresidente]

-SenorPresidente

Skill is still involved in that scenario. If the enemy lobs the bomb at you, you can grab it mid flight. Or dodge it (via rolling) or evade it. And when that player misses and thought for 100% he/she had you. There is your opening.

I don't think you understand. You are charging your smash attack and a bomb appears or an exploding create etc in front of you. There is nothing you can do but lose.

Maybe I'm not getting this,but if an item falls on you does it automactially open or whatever. All I'm hearing is "if a bomb falls on you in a whatever match you die". Man this type of stuff dosn't even happen for real so stop saying this,I mean honestly stop trying to down the fact that itms are fun. Don't make me use another quote.

I played many years casually before i got into competitive and i guess you are just lucky because there were always scenarios in which a barrel, bomb and such ended up killing me in such ways. As far as i can rember since the N64 i had always had this grudge with items and no one is arguing against items being fun but at the same time take into consideration that people have fun in different ways. Such as playing without items.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It's like this: When I go to see a fight between Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee, I expect to see them fight it out using thier badassery and nothing more. I do NOT want to see Michael Jackson suddenly spawn in front of Bruce Lee in the middle of the match and hand him a shotgun, which he then proceeds to use and win the match.

Having to see two opponents at equal skill levels constantly having to "adapt" to RANDOM benefits is NOT pro.

It's for the exact same reason that all official martial arts tournaments are held on flat ground with as few interfering factors as possible.

 

[Solid Samus]

The OP is a ****ing 11 year old who has yet to have his balls drop.

He hasn't addressed half of the arguments against his dumb *** circular logic.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Xen, in regard to the last part. That was a joke. If you have played none items for years and choose to limit yourself. Thats up to you. The points I make are more than valid. And massive response show this isn't a troll. People get angry when you confront them about something. Not to mention when you bring in valid points to add.

"Right, but all at a potentially unfair random chance. I'd rather have my opponent put the offensive pressure on me, not with random spawns helping him out"

Thats assuming that all items spawn on his/her lap. Which would mean

A. your not trying to get the items
B. You can avoid them,
C. Can grab them as well.
D. At times even reflect them.

"The OP is a ****ing 11 year old who has yet to have his balls drop.

He hasn't addressed half of the arguments against his dumb *** circular logic"

Very insightful? Oh wait....no... Hmm

 

[A New Challenger]

NessBounder goes to see fights between Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris... I think he lives in heaven. Seriously, I want to see a new movie with the two. Prop Bruce's Body up on sticks or use some fancy CGI or something. I don't care.

As for the fighting games use items comment, that's quaint. Oh noes, you called me a dildo on the internet! Have fun at your big fifteenth birthday party, kiddo.

Anyway, name 2 games on the EVO circuit that do. ****, name one. Let's see... TK, VF, SC, SF, MvC2, GG... oh wait. Hurr hurr...

I play items on when my girlfriend is bored and she wants to have fun, cute matches like PT versus Pika. Occasionally, I play items with my ten year old brother. It makes Smash a cute, quirky, fun party game.

I like fighting games, though. We're done here.

 

[DanteSmash7]

NessBounder goes to see fights between Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris... I think he lives in heaven. Seriously, I want to see a new movie with the two. Prop Bruce's Body up on sticks or use some fancy CGI or something. I don't care.

As for the fighting games use items comment, that's quaint. Oh noes, you called me a dildo on the internet! Have fun at your big fifteenth birthday party, kiddo.

Anyway, name 2 games on the EVO circuit that do. ****, name one. Let's see... TK, VF, SC, SF, MvC2, GG... oh wait. Hurr hurr...

I play items on when my girlfriend is bored and she wants to have fun, cute matches like PT versus Pika. Occasionally, I play items with my ten year old brother. It makes Smash a cute, quirky, fun party game.

I like fighting games, though. We're done here.

Cause, Mortal Kombat doesn't have items, Street Fighter doesn't... right? Oh Marvel vs Capcom. Yeah.... Okay. W/E makes you happy. Why cause when they have items on they actually beat you? That says a lot if you think items make the game to a party game. Cause am sure the creator wanted to exile his hardcore aud. LMAO.

But yeah...might wnat to practice if you little bro is giving you a beating with items on. Not too hard to dodge and evade...

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

It's like arguing with a pile of cement.

 

[DTKPch]

Exactly. Spawnpoint is critical.

Assuming, like you said, we don't play with items on very high. Suppose not many items will appear this match. Suppose you are a marth comboing me, an Ike, across Final Destination. You accidentally tipper one you were supposed to non-sweetspot, sending me too far for another hit. Instead of stupidly and blindly pursuing, you just land and maybe try to chase my tech. Instead, a pit fall appears out of nowhere right next to me, too far from you, and I grab it and hit you too fast to respond. Suddenly, your 50% combo is worth nothing, because I'm standing next to you fully charging my eruption, which is gonna kill you, all because one item spawned next to me.

You may argue that as a good player, you have to be able to counter them once they have the item, too. However, there are certain items (read: smash balls) that can not really be countered. Have fun trying to fight against a Giga Bowser on a small stage. Or Kirby's Cooking Pot which just sucks you in no matter where you are. Of Samus's Zero Laser, which takes up so much horizontal space that you can't dodge it (and shielding it doesn't work).

Essentially, there are many gamebreaking items. Many FSs require no skill to use. You get the item, you press b, you're now up a stock on your opponent. Some Pokemon are ridiculous, and once you've thrown the pokeball, the computer pwns your opponent for you. No work or skill required. Item spawnpoints are also too random. I don't care how good of a player you are. If there's a pokeball right next to me, and you're on the other side of Hyrule Temple, you're not getting this pokeball before me.

Yes, they do add a different layer to the game, so you go play with items. Tournament play is based more around pure skill with the game, not the ability to cope with random factors. Therefore, competitive tournament goers will opt out of items.

 

[DanteSmash7]

-NESSBOUNDER

Well, for starters thats real life vs game . The game isn't a sport its a game.

"Having to see two opponents at equal skill levels constantly having to "adapt" to RANDOM benefits is NOT pro.

It's for the exact same reason that all official martial arts tournaments are held on flat ground with as few interfering factors as possible."

I believe that is what makes a "pro" the ability to adapt. An expert knows one style and can stick to it. A Pro (Truly mastering) can change on the fly without it hindering him/her.

 

[Solid Samus]

Very insightful? Oh wait....no... Hmm

More insightful than any post on this thread typed by you.

Seriously, at least three people have given you this scenario: Two players have 1 stock and about 100% damage, one is about to get the kill with a charged smash attack and a bob-omb or explosive crate spawns right in front of them.

They are dead. No ifs ands or buts.

Yet you have ignored that argument and instead say "NEED BETTAR REFLEXES LOOLOL"

More like "need the power to see 5 seconds into the future."

Not ONCE have you acknowledged the fact that we are agreeing with you that items take skill. BUT they are RANDOM. RANDOM.

RANDOM.
RANDOM.
RANDOM.
RANDOM.
RANDOM.
RANDOM.
RANDOM.
RANDOM.


RANDOM does NOT = more skill than NOT random. ****ing case closed.

PS: You immediately proved to EVERYONE in this forum that you know nothing about Smash Brothers by saying that items balance the characters. Marth doesn't have projectile attacks for a reason.

Learn to ****ing play and leave your dumb *** comments to yourself from now on. I hope my post here does this board a favor and locks this waste of time thread. If I get banned, so be it, it will be worth it.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Exactly. Spawnpoint is critical.

Assuming, like you said, we don't play with items on very high. Suppose not many items will appear this match. Suppose you are a marth comboing me, an Ike, across Final Destination. You accidentally tipper one you were supposed to non-sweetspot, sending me too far for another hit. Instead of stupidly and blindly pursuing, you just land and maybe try to chase my tech. Instead, a pit fall appears out of nowhere right next to me, too far from you, and I grab it and hit you too fast to respond. Suddenly, your 50% combo is worth nothing, because I'm standing next to you fully charging my eruption, which is gonna kill you, all because one item spawned next to me.

You may argue that as a good player, you have to be able to counter them once they have the item, too. However, there are certain items (read: smash balls) that can not really be countered. Have fun trying to fight against a Giga Bowser on a small stage. Or Kirby's Cooking Pot which just sucks you in no matter where you are. Of Samus's Zero Laser, which takes up so much horizontal space that you can't dodge it (and shielding it doesn't work).

Essentially, there are many gamebreaking items. Many FSs require no skill to use. You get the item, you press b, you're now up a stock on your opponent. Some Pokemon are ridiculous, and once you've thrown the pokeball, the computer pwns your opponent for you. No work or skill required. Item spawnpoints are also too random. I don't care how good of a player you are. If there's a pokeball right next to me, and you're on the other side of Hyrule Temple, you're not getting this pokeball before me.

Yes, they do add a different layer to the game, so you go play with items. Tournament play is based more around pure skill with the game, not the ability to cope with random factors. Therefore, competitive tournament goers will opt out of items.

Yeah a smash ball can be countered. Some are easier than others no doubt. But they all can be countered. Marth is an easy evade. To Giga bowsers simple trying to make the user chase you to death or avoid as much damage. I would say most hardest is Olimars but even that doesn't knock you out as you can dodge his airship.

Thats okay, some people like to play without items(Need a Handicap). However it takes less skill to do so. The fact that they opt out is why they cannot adjust to items. In regards to a pokeball, I will reflect it or grab it as you throw at me. And yes....even the pokemon can be dodged and evaded. Takes timing. But its more than possible.

 

[Xengri]

Xen, in regard to the last part. That was a joke. If you have played none items for years and choose to limit yourself. Thats up to you. The points I make are more than valid. And massive response show this isn't a troll. People get angry when you confront them about something. Not to mention when you bring in valid points to add.

"Right, but all at a potentially unfair random chance. I'd rather have my opponent put the offensive pressure on me, not with random spawns helping him out"

Thats assuming that all items spawn on his/her lap. Which would mean

A. your not trying to get the items
B. You can avoid them,
C. Can grab them as well.
D. At times even reflect them.

You're assuming I never play with items, that's not true, hell the first match I played on Brawl was with only Bumpers on very high.
I play with them sometimes but, I can't agree that not playing with them is limiting you're self.

As for the item distribution.
I know that not all items will always fall in front of my opponent (the location is random after all. Also meaning that they could very well all land right next to my opponent) but, I personally prefer that it's only my skill of playing my character vs. my opponents skill on playing their character.

And, saying that item users gain some type of "edge" from practicing with items is a pretty big claim.
I've never noticed a gap between those that train with items, compared to those that train without (and if there were, I'd think it would be in the non-item user's favor).
Maybe I just haven't faced a "item hardened smash player" yet. You'd have to show my the skills you've gained from practicing with items on sometime. Maybe a Wifi match, seeing as we're both east coast.

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

Most people don't want to lose a tournament because a Cracker Launcher or a Golden Hammer spawned next to their opponent on their last stock.

And don't even start with your "O WELL A REAL PRO CAN ADAPT TO ANY SCENARIO LOLOLOLOLOL" bullsh*t. It severely slants the match in favor of the item user in any case.

I'd like to see you "adapt" if you were in a fistfight and suddenly a shotgun materialized into your enemy's hands.

 

[shadydentist]

I believe that is what makes a "pro" the ability to adapt. An expert knows one style and can stick to it. A Pro (Truly mastering) can change on the fly without it hindering him/her.

DanteSmash, let me spell this out:

1. When it comes down to it, items give an advantage to a player. This is irrefutable. There is no drawback to taking a heart piece, a beam sword, or even a fan.

2. The location of the spawn is random.

1 + 2 means that without doing anything to earn it, one player gains an advantage over another. You can argue about how it takes 'true skill' to overcome that advantage, but you'd be wrong. What items do is mask true skill by adding in a layer of uncertainty, and rewarding a player who didn't necessarily deserve it.

I will say it again: a player should NEVER have to work to overcome an unfair advantage. This is why items should remain off in tournaments. Honestly, do you think you're the first one to bring up this point? There have literally been hundreds of posts almost exactly like this., spanning from the time when Melee was a fresh new game. In fact, for a time, items WERE enabled in tournaments, and found to be generally detractive from the overall experience.

There is a reason tournament format eventually evolved to become what it has.

 

[DanteSmash7]

You're assuming I never play with items, that's not true, hell the first match I played on Brawl was with only Bumpers on very high.
I play with them sometimes but, I can't agree that not playing with them is limiting you're self.

As for the item distribution.
I know that not all items will always fall in front of my opponent (the location is random after all. Also meaning that they could very well all land right next to my opponent) but, I personally prefer that it's only my skill of playing my character vs. my opponents skill on playing their character.

And, saying that item users gain some type of "edge" from practicing with items is a pretty big claim.
I've never noticed a gap between those that train with items, compared to those that train without (and if there were, I'd think it would be in the non-item user's favor).
Maybe I just haven't faced a "item hardened smash player" yet. You'd have to show my the skills you've gained from practicing with items on sometime. Maybe a Wifi match, seeing as we're both east coast.

More than willing to battle you sometime =). Yeah they do gain an edge. I grab links bombs as many times as I can. Of course making sure I don't get dmg in the process. Same applies with peach and so on.

If the person is used to garbing items mid flight "like a crackhead". I assure you, he will opt to do more in a projectile fighter. Of course not all projectiles can be garbed, but you know that.

 

[Flaming Dragon Wang]

I love how DanteSmash7 chooses to ignore every single post that proves him wrong.

 

[DanteSmash7]

I'd like to see you "adapt" if you were in a fistfight and suddenly a shotgun materialized into your enemy's hands.

Am sorry thats just too funny. Use that as you sig, esp since you dont play with items professionally. But yeah a pro will be able to, and its game >,<. For some anyway.....

 

[Solid Samus]

I love how DanteSmash7 chooses to ignore every single post that proves him wrong.

Seems to be the trend, lol.

 

[DTKPch]

Yeah a smash ball can be countered. Some are easier than others no doubt. But they all can be countered. Marth is an easy evade. To Giga bowsers simple trying to make the user chase you to death or avoid as much damage. I would say most hardest is Olimars but even that doesn't knock you out as you can dodge his airship.

Thats okay, some people like to play without items(Need a Handicap). However it takes less skill to do so. The fact that they opt out is why they cannot adjust to items. In regards to a pokeball, I will reflect it or grab it as you throw at me. And yes....even the pokemon can be dodged and evaded. Takes timing. But its more than possible.

First of all, you completely ignored the statement about spawn points for items. Yeah. Way to go.

Yes, I know it's possible to dodge final smashes and legendary pokemon. However, one hit by said object will cause you to pretty much lose the game. Also, even if the item doesn't hit, it's presence affects you. My example is this: You're battling me on FD. You're any random character, I'm Pokemon Trainer, specifically Ivysaur. A smashball spawned, and I got it. We are playing on FD, and PT's Final Smash is all about horizontal control. Therefore, you jump up, so that if I unleash my final smash, you won't get hit by it. OH WAIT. Approaching Ivysaur from above is just about one of the stupidest things you can do. I proceeded to pwn you with regular attacks and not the Final Smash. The Final Smash is what made that all possible.

And SINCE WHEN DOES NO ITEMS = A HANDICAP!?!? WHICH PLAYER IS IT A HANDICAP FOR!?!?

For your information (seeing as you don't follow the competitive scene much), when melee first came out, tournaments actually used items. Yes, competitive, professional smash players were using items. They turned them off for a reason. They are perfectly capable of dodging or reflecting an item thrown at them. You're nothing special if you can dodge. What happened was that bom-ombs, exploding crates, and exploding capsules were spawning in front of people who were attacking. The character starts his attack and can't stop -> explosive item spawns -> Character dies. Completely random, nothing anyone can do about it. Yeah. So much skill. Without item, the outcome is: character starts attack -> player does damage and knockback like he intended to. Amazing, huh?

 

[Solid Samus]

Am sorry thats just too funny. Use that as you sig, esp since you dont play with items professionally. But yeah a pro will be able to, and its game >,<. For some anyway.....

Neither do you, and you never will since items are not tournament legal. There is no such thing as "playing with items professionally." Get over it.

Also, any "pro" player will own you with or without items.

 

[Papapaint]

I'm just telling myself that the TS is a troll. That's the only way I can have faith in the future of these boards.

Also, I'd love to take my marth against any one of your little projectile-users. Gawd, I'd love that right now. I'll show you "balance".

 

[DanteSmash7]

DanteSmash, let me spell this out:

1. When it comes down to it, items give an advantage to a player. This is irrefutable. There is no drawback to taking a heart piece, a beam sword, or even a fan.

2. The location of the spawn is random.

1 + 2 means that without doing anything to earn it, one player gains an advantage over another. You can argue about how it takes 'true skill' to overcome that advantage, but you'd be wrong. What items do is mask true skill by adding in a layer of uncertainty, and rewarding a player who didn't necessarily deserve it.

I will say it again: a player should NEVER have to work to overcome an unfair advantage. This is why items should remain off in tournaments. Honestly, do you think you're the first one to bring up this point? There have literally been hundreds of posts almost exactly like this., spanning from the time when Melee was a fresh new game. In fact, for a time, items WERE enabled in tournaments, and found to be generally detractive from the overall experience.

There is a reason tournament format eventually evolved to become what it has.

A player that does overcome a "unfair" as you put it even though both can use the items. Is a pro, the ability to focuses more. As a item fighter and none item fighter. I tell you that all to often does my "enemy" get cocky when they get a heart only to loose that whole stock. Its more than possible. Esp if the player becomes more motivated to end that stock since he/she grabbed that heart.

Tournament Format is what it is because in essence there are no pros in smash. Sure you have experts to one type of play style of game play (none items). But no pros.

 

[pirkid]

Am sorry thats just too funny. Use that as you sig, esp since you dont play with items professionally. But yeah a pro will be able to, and its game >,<. For some anyway.....

Haha.
Haha, ha.

Heh.

Heh...

Guess what, kid, no one plays with items professionally. Go back to middle school and start camping on Temple looking for your Dragoon pieces, because your not gonna change the opinion of a whole site.

 

[COLDshiver]

@OP: Playing with items are great, I play with them and sometimes I don't. But when you are competing, items can cause havoc. "adapting" is not a good enough reason because of the randomness of spawn locations and items.

If an item spawns in the middle, between two players, or to the side away from the other players, then that is a fair fight. Whoever gets it first is all fair. A slow character can try to grab the other (possibly faster) character and throw him the other way and try to get the item. This takes skill.

But, the problem does not lie there but rather when an item spawns right next to one of the players, while the other is either recovering or spawning. Many items can pose a huge problem and can cause an unfair fight. It is the potential to cause havoc with little risk that is the problem. For example, if a bob-omb appeared next to a character and that guy throws it. What if it misses the other player? Nothing to worry about, just carry on with the battle. If it hits the other guy? If the other guy is at a high percentage, say good bye just because he had dodged a split second too early.

What did the guy have to do? just throwing the bomb, that's it. There lies the problem. It is the minimal risk that is causing the unfair advantage. If at a high percentage, the one dodging the bomb risks getting killed with a mis-timed dodge. What risk does the thrower have? barely anything. All he has to do is throw the bomb and the risk is there for the enemy. If he misses, he just continues the fight as if the bomb was ever there. If the one getting a bomb thrown at misses, what happens? He gets blown out.

Same thing with the hammer. It is easier to knock the guy out, but you have to risk a stock or point if you mess up (assuming you are at high percentages). The guy with the hammer just got a free run and could just run around trying to kill everyone. If he doesn't get anyone or loses it, no loss. Just a free chance to kick ***.

I'm not saying these things happen all the time, they will happen often but not every match. But if you are competing, especially for money, you don't want to lose like $1k just because you got knocked back and landed next to a bomb and that bomb just so happened to get up and walk into your face.

If you are playing for fun, there is no reason to make a thread like this. Play whatever way you want. With items, no items, items on high, items on med, whatever. Play what you want.

 

[Papapaint]

I think I've figured out his reasoning...

I think he assumes that anyone who gets an item is not a pro. That's the only logical way. Because if any "pro" ever gets a god **** item, they abuse it, use it to take a stool sample from you forcibly and without permission, force you to lick it clean, then stab you in the eye socket.

... I've had some rough experiences.

 

[Captain Sa10]

This thread is utterly pointless! Here's the difference! Enough SAID ****!!!:

Item Matches: Takes skill, but with a stroke of Luck, can change EVERYTHING. NOT ALL ITEMS ARE BAD< BUT IN COMPETITIVE SITUATIONS(I.E, PLAYING FOR FREAKING MONEY, NOT MONOPOLY MONEY, REAL FREAKING GREENBACKS!) TURNS THE IDEA OF THAT INTO UTTER GARBAGE

Competitive matches: takes skill as well, and can be changed as well by a stroke of luck, BUT WITH THE LACK OF ITEMS INVOVLED, A DIFFERENT ATMOSPHERE IS CREATED, NO WORRIES ABOUT UNFORTUNE MISHAPS, A REAL FIGHTING GAME(in a sense) IS BORN, AND YOU WONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LOSING CASH TO SO ANNOYING FIVE YEAR OLD THAT THINK'S HE OWNS YOU BECAUSE HE GOT HAS HANDS ON TWENTY DIFFERENT ITEMS, AND WAS USING, I dont know, A FREAKING CHARACTER THAT CAN NOT ONLY GET AROUND FAST BUT REFLECTS(I.E, FOX, he's cool, but just using him here) YOUR FREAKING ITEMS.

Thus saying that you would either win or lose cash to the fact that your opponent was better/wasn't good, instead of taking your chances with items. Sure you can have fun with items, and you can have fun without, it's all a matter of freaking preference.

DO NOT TRY AND COMPARE THE TWO!!!! IT A MATTER OF PREFERENCE!!! IN FACT, PROBABLY JUST ABOUT EVERY DANG PERSON THAT EVER STARTED PLAYING SMASH BROS SERIES IN GENERAL HAS PLAYED WITH ITEMS BEFORE!!!! AND OUT OF THE TWO I PREFER COMPETITIVE SMASH!!! THUS SAYING WITHOUT!!!

DO NOT COMPARE!!! TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!! APPLES ARE NOT THE SAME AS ORANGES!!! SAMUS CAN"T DO A BARRELL ROLL DANG IT!!!

 

[Xengri]

DanteSmash, let me spell this out:
a player should NEVER have to work to overcome an unfair advantage.

I'm thinking this line sums up the perfect reason as to way items are generally not allowed.
I could be taken down to my last stock while my opponent hasn't died once do to the smashballs/hammers/starmen/Assist trophies, always spawning right in front of him and, still manage to win the match.
Did the more skilled player still win? Yes.
Does that mean that that was a fair match? No.

I shouldn't have had to work that hard against a player that just got really lucky.
And, if the skill difference was anything but extremely wide between us, I would have lost.

Items are fine and, can be fun but, they just make for unfair competition.


~
As for the match, that's great. I'm looking forward to seeing the "skills" you've gained though item training.
Sadly, I'm busy with RO at the moment and, it'll be to late afterwards. But, tomorrow after school, I'll be sure to PM you.

 

[Oi Kyon]

-NESSBOUNDER

Well, for starters thats real life vs game . The game isn't a sport its a game.

"Having to see two opponents at equal skill levels constantly having to "adapt" to RANDOM benefits is NOT pro.

It's for the exact same reason that all official martial arts tournaments are held on flat ground with as few interfering factors as possible."

I believe that is what makes a "pro" the ability to adapt. An expert knows one style and can stick to it. A Pro (Truly mastering) can change on the fly without it hindering him/her.

If you think about it, pros don't just take Brawl as just a game.
Example: Sports are also considered as games. But do pros just take it as just a game, no. They take it seriously.

Am sorry thats just too funny. Use that as you sig, esp since you dont play with items professionally. But yeah a pro will be able to, and its game >,<. For some anyway.....

Assuming that you're a pro with items. How will you adapt when a heart container and a golden hammer appears next to your opponent and you have 150%.?

 

[DTKPch]

Am sorry thats just too funny. Use that as you sig, esp since you dont play with items professionally. But yeah a pro will be able to, and its game >,<. For some anyway.....

Yes, a pro player could "adapt" against a noob, but only cause he's pro. With the shotgun analogy: 5-year-old gets owned by Chuck Norris. 5-year-old with an AK-47 still gets owned by Chuck Norris.

However, like people have said before, that's an unfair advantage that Chuck Norris shouldn't have to overcome, even though he can. Assume it's actually two 10-year-olds fist fighting, and one gets a shotgun. The other one? Yeah, he's pretty much screwed.

How about you just stop trolling now, eh? How does that sound?

Tournament Format is what it is because in essence there are no pros in smash. Sure you have experts to one type of play style of game play (none items). But no pros.

LMAO. Proz Don Exits.

Seriously, stop trolling. It's destroying our faith in humanity.

 

[Justice7541]

Am sorry thats just too funny. Use that as you sig, esp since you dont play with items professionally. But yeah a pro will be able to, and its game >,<. For some anyway.....

I like how your qualification is that you apparently play with items professionally, on the pro Smash item circuit. You know, the one where everyone uses items and you win a hundred dollars because a Smash Ball spawned right in front of you during the final round.

Let's take a look at the facts:

1) You clearly have no understanding of item balance. You think that "every item can be offset" and that the "element of chance is minimal". This fails to explain why, if I get a Landmaster on Final Destination, there's nothing you can do except say to yourself, "I can totally counter this Landmaster" as you go flying off the screen.

2) You have no conception of character balance. You think Marth needs items against projectile users. This explains why no one ever plays Marth against Link in tourneys, because Marth is useless. After all, there's no way he can counter the bomb spam. I mean, when I play Marth and I see my opponent go to Link, I usually just forfeit. There's no point in fighting an impossible battle.

3) You fail to understand the rules of logic. All you can say is "None users can't adapt to items" over and over. Convincing yourself through rote wins you no points as a matter of debate. I'm willing to bet that most of the good players who you claim "can't adapt" could probably pwn you regardless. In fact, I'm going to put my money on the guess that your definition of "can't adapt" is, in actuality, something along the lines of "I once beat that guy who was clearly much better than me because I got two Super Hammers in a row and he couldn't adapt to them".

Sure, you have a right to be stupid on the Internet. That doesn't mean you should exercise that right.

Also, watch as the OP completely ignores everything I say, because he knows I'm right and that he can't argue against it.

 

[DanteSmash7]

First of all, you completely ignored the statement about spawn points for items. Yeah. Way to go.

Yes, I know it's possible to dodge final smashes and legendary pokemon. However, one hit by said object will cause you to pretty much lose the game. Also, even if the item doesn't hit, it's presence affects you. My example is this: You're battling me on FD. You're any random character, I'm Pokemon Trainer, specifically Ivysaur. A smashball spawned, and I got it. We are playing on FD, and PT's Final Smash is all about horizontal control. Therefore, you jump up, so that if I unleash my final smash, you won't get hit by it. OH WAIT. Approaching Ivysaur from above is just about one of the stupidest things you can do. I proceeded to pwn you with regular attacks and not the Final Smash. The Final Smash is what made that all possible.

And SINCE WHEN DOES NO ITEMS = A HANDICAP!?!? WHICH PLAYER IS IT A HANDICAP FOR!?!?

For your information (seeing as you don't follow the competitive scene much), when melee first came out, tournaments actually used items. Yes, competitive, professional smash players were using items. They turned them off for a reason. They are perfectly capable of

dodging or reflecting an item thrown at them. You're nothing special if you can dodge. What happened was that bom-ombs, exploding crates, and exploding capsules were spawning in front of people who were attacking. The character starts his attack and can't stop -> explosive item spawns -> Character dies. Completely random, nothing anyone can do about it. Yeah. So much skill. Without item, the outcome is: character starts attack -> player does damage and knockback like he intended to. Amazing, huh?

Oh thats my personal opinion, i think its a handicap. As many others believe that items are. Oh snap am Bias? Yeah to an extent. Yeah am aware, I used to play in BIN (Best in New York). So I know the reason they were removed was for conformity and mob like mentality.

Its easier not to worry about something random factor, but that makes my point exactly. It isn't for the easy. or For the weak of heart.

 

[SenorPresidente]

You are charging your smash attack, your percentage is at 130 and a bomb appears or an exploding create etc in front of you. There is nothing you can do but lose.

Why do you keep avoiding this argument when someone brings it up.

 

[Solid Samus]

I think I speak for everyone when I say "Go to hell DanteSmash"

Also: Someone please lock this bullsh*t thread.