Event - MLG Anaheim 2014 So now that we know MLG hosts ridiculous smash tournaments...

[Exdeath]

I explained this. Seriously. It's not a counterpick for MK in the sense that an MK will take you there with a liberal stagelist. MK is better on Norfair, RC, Brinstar, Green Greens, and Orpheon. It's not even top 5 for MK (maybe borderline, okay).

Brinstar is on a whole other level from Meta Knight's other counter picks in that it is virtually always his best option (like Snake with Halberd). Even so, Delphino is one of Meta Knight's best stages -- definitely better than Frigate.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's a great stage, but it isn't in his top 4 (arguably top 5). Whereas all of diddy's top 5 stages except pictochat are in every starter list except the 3-starter, where he has all 3 of his very best stages.

 

[AllyKnight]

Ban MK, BAN HIM, he is a OP GUMMY BAT, NO GUMMY BAT SHOULD EVER HARM SOMEONE!

 

[Mota]

Gummy bats? not a bad idea, omnomnom

Ally da bess.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Indeed. I think the main issue with our way of thought is that it makes metaknight overpowered. So we cater the stagelist to ensure that he isn't overpowered. Instead of doing the obvious.

 

[etecoon]

I explained this. Seriously. It's not a counterpick for MK in the sense that an MK will take you there with a liberal stagelist. MK is better on Norfair, RC, Brinstar, Green Greens, and Orpheon. It's not even top 5 for MK (maybe borderline, okay)

green greens is definitely not better for MK than delfino, wtf

orpheon is questionable and it depends on matchup but I think it's worse than delfino overall

 

[ADHD]

"Diddy does not have "one CP". He has literally every one of his best stages except pictochat. Metaknight has one stage that he might pick in a 5 or 7-game set if he doesn't like the other stages MK usually performs superbly on. See the post linked to above.

It would be comparable if the starter list looked like this:
-FD
-SV
-BF
-YI
-Brinstar
-Norfair
-RC

Then Diddy has all of his best stages, and MK has his very best stages."

But now we have a stagelist that caters to specific characters over others (the 9 starter system). Explain this, because it is the point you're fighting against.

Basically, people are telling me I should not ***** and moan about the stages not catering to diddy kong anymore, while at the same time they cater to air-based characters. ****.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

"Diddy does not have "one CP". He has literally every one of his best stages except pictochat. Metaknight has one stage that he might pick in a 5 or 7-game set if he doesn't like the other stages MK usually performs superbly on. See the post linked to above.

It would be comparable if the starter list looked like this:
-FD
-SV
-BF
-YI
-Brinstar
-Norfair
-RC

Then Diddy has all of his best stages, and MK has his very best stages."

But now we have a stagelist that caters to specific characters over others (the 9 starter system). Explain this, because it is the point you're fighting against.

Basically, people are telling me I should not ***** and moan about the stages not catering to diddy kong anymore, while at the same time they cater to air-based characters. ****.

Quote tags: they're all the rage.

We have a stagelist that caters to characters who are more adaptable to stages. People like ZSS, DDD, Pikachu. Characters that do well on all kinds of different stages, as opposed to flat stages with minimal platforms and transformations.

The 9 starter system hardly caters to aerial characters. If we wanted to cater to aerial characters, we wouldn't have FD, would we? No, we put in as many stages as we can that don't outright unbalance that game so that the characters who are good at adapting to different kinds of stages, and the players who are the same way, get the bonus they should have.

 

[etecoon]

out of curiosity what matchups exactly is MK so good on green greens in? I can't really think of any where that'd be his preferred cp, much less his 4th best stage o_O

(granted brinstar is probably his preferred stage like 9x% of the time buuuut)

 

[-Ran]

It's mostly because if MK gets you off the edge with a shuttle loop you're going to die on Green Greens. Plus he has four edges to grab, and 'Nado can lock down the entire center of the stage.

 

[etecoon]

Plus he has four edges to grab

MK's planking is statistically unbeatable with one ledge, the number of ledges doesn't matter.

 

[-Ran]

Positional advantage. If he gets crowded on one edge, he can move on. It's actually six edges, my bad. The two on the outside are literally untouchable, since one up air leads to a shuttle loop, ie death.

 

[etecoon]

crowded implies pressure, it's impossible to pressure MK on the ledge unless the player is ******** or actually trying to fight you(i.e. shouldn't be playing MK)

uair > SL also only leads to death if you're hit towards the edge of the stage, which again, is dependent on one of the players doing something stupid

 

[Dark 3nergy]

The more a stage interacts, the more it can potential benefit one character over another. Characters with multiple jumps deal with stage interactions far easier than ground based characters.

outside of pit, jiggs, zard, dream land characters, everyone's got a second jump. Everyone is capable of being off the ground by the time the stage does gay stuff

 

[Damage Points]

Those darn dreamlanders with their 5 jumps.

 

[Exdeath]

out of curiosity what matchups exactly is MK so good on green greens in? I can't really think of any where that'd be his preferred cp, much less his 4th best stage o_O

If Meta Knight gains the lead, virtually no member of the cast can take it back from him a la Luigi's Mansion, which is a major reason for it being banned.

outside of pit, jiggs, zard, dream land characters, everyone's got a second jump. Everyone is capable of being off the ground by the time the stage does gay stuff

In many match-ups (e.g. Meta Knight vs. Falco, Dedede vs. Marth, etc.) being caught without a second jump limits their options to the point that they will take a large amount of damage and possibly their stock.

 

[-Ran]

And most of the time if an opponent that isn't an aerial based character is in the air, it's because their opponent put them there, depriving them of their only means of avoiding a stage interaction. Furthermore, if they are willingly going into the air due to the stage, they are now at a disadvantage due to their character typing.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

I ****ing love how bad this community is
You guys can't agree on ****.

 

[Overswarm]

If Meta Knight gains the lead, virtually no member of the cast can take it back from him a la Luigi's Mansion, which is a major reason for it being banned.

 

[-Ran]

Why Smashers can't agree on anything:
1) Bias: Regional, Character, and Personal.
2) Pride.
3) Maturity Levels.
4) An SBR that not many people have faith in. We almost need to have elections at this point. That gives me an idea....

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

Ohio loves you too, random guy.

I don't prefer to hold back just to make myself look passive and appease lurkers like you who don't even post anything worthwhile. Suck it up.

You are like the biggest ***** ever.

 

[Count Typo]

So far in this thread, I've seen a lot of complaining about one character having a disadvantage on a stage, while at the same time promoting a stage that gives that character an advantage. Infact, that's the only argument here. The thing is: there is no neutral stage. Not one. All stages give at least one character a disadvantage, and likewise all stages give at least one character an advantage. Since there is no stage that is equal for both that we have discussed so far, I suggest we look beyond our current scope of stages.

There are some stages that would be considered truly horrible. Hanenbow, New Pork City, and Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 just to name three. But WHY are they considered horrible?

Is it the music?
No, The Roost plays at tournaments.

Is it the graphics?
No, we play on Melee stages.

Is it the terrain?
No, nothing is different on these three stages than the MLG stages.

So why are they bad? It's because other stages, for an impossibly long amount of time, have been believed to be superior. No annoying distractions, perfectly flat surfaces to fight on, good music, etc. But this thread alone disproves that belief. There is much hatred towards our current list of stages, because each one unbalances the game by giving an advantage to one while disadvantaging another.

Since balancing the game by giving equally fair stages to all characters is out of the question with our current stage list, and finding stages that give an advantage to both characters will lead to arbitrary arguments, I say we should choose the third option: pick disadvantageous stages for all.

Counting both of Mushroomy Kingdom's stages, there are 42 different stages on Super Smash Bros Brawl. However, I've seen lists that only allow eleven, nine, or even FIVE stages to be playable in tournaments. Why? There's hardly a difference between these stages and disallowed ones. Mushroomy Kingdom moves no less than Rainbow Cruise. New Pork City has an easier to dodge 0-DEATH than Orphan. Hanenbow has all of Norfair's semi-permeable platforms with none of the hazards. I'm not even counting other stages that are banned like Onett! Onett's cars and falling platforms will prevent all infinites while remaining safer than Green Greens or Japes.

Most of the people arguing here have an overly orthodox attitude, but nobody has considered if both their opponent AND they are wrong. There is a third option, and it has remained unexplored for years. I don't see why it shouldn't be opened up now. There is so much hatred towards the current stage list that I'm surprised nobody has brought this option up sooner. And who knows? Maybe if some well needed stage implants are added, we might be seeing some new faces in the would be stereotypical tournament results.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Those darn dreamlanders with their 5 jumps.

DDD has four if you do not count the initial jump off the platform

In many match-ups (e.g. Meta Knight vs. Falco, Dedede vs. Marth, etc.) being caught without a second jump limits their options to the point that they will take a large amount of damage and possibly their stock.

exactly, which is why lucarios are often told to never EVER use their second jump unless they absolutely need it. i agree with you so hard on that it hurts to think about it

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So far in this thread, I've seen a lot of complaining about one character having a disadvantage on a stage, while at the same time promoting a stage that gives that character an advantage. Infact, that's the only argument here. The thing is: there is no neutral stage. Not one. All stages give at least one character a disadvantage, and likewise all stages give at least one character an advantage. Since there is no stage that is equal for both that we have discussed so far, I suggest we look beyond our current scope of stages.

There are some stages that would be considered truly horrible. Hanenbow, New Pork City, and Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 just to name three. But WHY are they considered horrible?

Is it the music?
No, The Roost plays at tournaments.

Is it the graphics?
No, we play on Melee stages.

Is it the terrain?
No, nothing is different on these three stages than the MLG stages.

So why are they bad? It's because other stages, for an impossibly long amount of time, have been believed to be superior. No annoying distractions, perfectly flat surfaces to fight on, good music, etc. But this thread alone disproves that belief. There is much hatred towards our current list of stages, because each one unbalances the game by giving an advantage to one while disadvantaging another.

Since balancing the game by giving equally fair stages to all characters is out of the question with our current stage list, and finding stages that give an advantage to both characters will lead to arbitrary arguments, I say we should choose the third option: pick disadvantageous stages for all.

Counting both of Mushroomy Kingdom's stages, there are 42 different stages on Super Smash Bros Brawl. However, I've seen lists that only allow eleven, nine, or even FIVE stages to be playable in tournaments. Why? There's hardly a difference between these stages and disallowed ones. Mushroomy Kingdom moves no less than Rainbow Cruise. New Pork City has an easier to dodge 0-DEATH than Orphan. Hanenbow has all of Norfair's semi-permeable platforms with none of the hazards. I'm not even counting other stages that are banned like Onett! Onett's cars and falling platforms will prevent all infinites while remaining safer than Green Greens or Japes.

Most of the people arguing here have an overly orthodox attitude, but nobody has considered if both their opponent AND they are wrong. There is a third option, and it has remained unexplored for years. I don't see why it shouldn't be opened up now. There is so much hatred towards the current stage list that I'm surprised nobody has brought this option up sooner. And who knows? Maybe if some well needed stage implants are added, we might be seeing some new faces in the would be stereotypical tournament results.

The problem is unbeatable strategies (and potential other factors that really detract from a tournament). Name a stage that's widely banned that isn't PTAD, and there is one completely unbalanced character/strategy that warrants it being banned. Hanenbow? Circle camping by fast characters by going back and forth from the top leaves (plus everyone hates it). Onett? Blastline camping, DDD's chaingrab. Mushroomy Kingdom? 1-2 has that ceiling that makes killing off the top virtually impossible, enables stupidly gay camping, and has the issue of DDD's CG. 1-1 has blastline camping and DDD's infinite. NPC has a multitude of problems-circle camping around the blocks on the left side, wall infinites, the chimera, and the cave of life on the bottom. That, plus it's absolutely gigantic, which makes scoring kills almost impossible.

TL;DR: MLG doesn't ban stages without warrant ('cept PTAD).

 

[Eddie G]

You are like the biggest ***** ever.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[Count Typo]

The problem is unbeatable strategies (and potential other factors that really detract from a tournament).

Nothing's unbeatable or unavoidable.

Name a stage that's widely banned that isn't PTAD, and there is one completely unbalanced character/strategy that warrants it being banned.

All stages have unbalances or unbalanced characters. Hence this cesspool of a thread.

Hanenbow? Circle camping by fast characters by going back and forth from the top leaves[/QUOTE]
1. Wait until they come down?
2. Pick a fast character?
3. Ban circle camping?

(plus everyone hates it).

They're not lovin' the current stages.

Onett? Blastline camping, DDD's chaingrab.

Dunno what Blastline camping is, but what's the problem with DDD? His infinite is banned, and even if it wasn't he can't do it for any extended period of time. Cars stop him from doing it on the ground, and he could only land about five hits on the center stage platforms before they would fall down. Everywhere else is curved, save for the right side where chaingrabbable players shouldn't be anyways if fighting DDD.

Mushroomy Kingdom? 1-2 has that ceiling that makes killing off the top virtually impossible

So? It's not supposed to be a typical flat stage.

enables stupidly gay camping

Not any different from many of the current stages.

and has the issue of DDD's CG.

The stage is moving and DDD is fat. CG isn't the best choice. Also it's not like he can't CG anywhere else *COUGH* Castle Siege *COUGH*

1-1 has blastline camping and DDD's infinite.

Still don't know what blastline camping is, DDD's infinite can be done anywhere.

NPC has a multitude of problems-circle camping around the blocks on the left side,

See Hanenbow

wall infinites

Infinites have rules, are avoidable, and we currently have stages with walls allowed. See Green Greens and RC.

the chimera,

Not only easily avoidable, but you can go through it and jump out before it can bite and still be alive. Orphan and Halberd have more hazardous 0-DEATHS than that.

and the cave of life on the bottom.

One wall bounce spells death. There's a pretty big gaping hole in the cave of "life".

That, plus it's absolutely gigantic, which makes scoring kills almost impossible.

Not impossible. Unless players are intentionally playing in the center pit so they die hard, there are many places to get killed easily. Both edges, the "cave of life", center top, not to mention the chimera. Lives could be brought down to 2 on this stage if desired, and we have the option of handicaps or damage ratio.

TL;DR: MLG doesn't ban stages without warrant ('cept PTAD).

TL;DR, all stages have flaws, but our currently allowed ones are much more flawed than some currently banned ones.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

blastline camping basically where you stand off screen with the blastzone behind you and wait for you opponent to come within grab range

ive actually done this in a friendly on wifi at rainbow against an MK few days back. He got too impatient, ran into my inhale, turned, walked towards the blast zone and spat him out

 

[Count Typo]

blastline camping basically where you stand off screen with the blastzone behind you and wait for you opponent to come within grab range

Ah, thanks.

ive actually done this in a friendly on wifi at rainbow against an MK. He got too impatient, ran into my inhale, turned, walked towards the blast zone and spat him out

Lawl.

Okay, so in that case, what's the problem? Blastline camping is already possible on Castle Siege and RC. Onett has cars that will kill blastline campers, and hiding on the blastline ON A MOVING STAGE is a hair from suicide.

 

[Raziek]

Nothing's unbeatable or unavoidable.

You've clearly never fought someone who circle camps or planks correctly.
All stages have unbalances or unbalanced characters. Hence this cesspool of a thread.

Hanenbow? Circle camping by fast characters by going back and forth from the top leaves
1. Wait until they come down?
2. Pick a fast character?
3. Ban circle camping?

See above, and you can't discretely ban circle camping, it's too abstract a concept.


They're not lovin' the current stages.

We have no problem with the stages. It's the starter stage LIST that we have the problem with.


Dunno what Blastline camping is, but what's the problem with DDD? His infinite is banned, and even if it wasn't he can't do it for any extended period of time. Cars stop him from doing it on the ground, and he could only land about five hits on the center stage platforms before they would fall down. Everywhere else is curved, save for the right side where chaingrabbable players shouldn't be anyways if fighting DDD.

Onett is more debatable, but his wall infinite is LEGAL, first off, and it's still 50 free damage or so, then he can just hold you into the car for another 30, then backthrow and you've just taken almost 100 damage. The SBR criteria for banned stages include stages where one tactic over-centralizes the stage. In Onett's case, this means Dedede and the permanent walls.

As for, "They shouldn't be there anyway", you're kind of oblivious to the fact that Dedede can just gain a % lead then camp, and unless you have a projectile, you're done.


So? It's not supposed to be a typical flat stage.

The ceiling means you get Cave of Life effects, which is considered a drastic change in gameplay (if you've read the criteria, which you clearly haven't.) Anyone who's played on Mushroomy Kingdom for more than 30 seconds knows it isn't fit for competitive play.

Not any different from many of the current stages.

There's a difference between gay camping, and stupidly gay camping. Stupidly gay camping is near unbeatable, regular camping isn't.


The stage is moving and DDD is fat. CG isn't the best choice. Also it's not like he can't CG anywhere else *COUGH* Castle Siege *COUGH*

You've clearly never played Dedede here. If he grabs you ANYWHERE he'll just wall CG you until the blastzone is right next to you, then B-throw and run forward to do it again next time he grabs you.

Still don't know what blastline camping is, DDD's infinite can be done anywhere.

Blastline camping is when you sit by the blastzone, camp until your opponent has to approach, then kill them at extremely low percents by landing a throw. Falls under the definition of over-centralizing tactics, though it is more volatile since you can die just as easily. Regardless, it detracts too heavily from normal play.


See Hanenbow

No.

Infinites have rules, are avoidable, and we currently have stages with walls allowed. See Green Greens and RC.

Still no. The fact that you even bring up New Pork is laughable.


Not only easily avoidable, but you can go through it and jump out before it can bite and still be alive. Orphan and Halberd have more hazardous 0-DEATHS than that.


One wall bounce spells death. There's a pretty big gaping hole in the cave of "life".

Again, no.


Not impossible. Unless players are intentionally playing in the center pit so they die hard, there are many places to get killed easily. Both edges, the "cave of life", center top, not to mention the chimera. Lives could be brought down to 2 on this stage if desired, and we have the option of handicaps or damage ratio.

Now you're just getting ridiculous.


TL;DR, all stages have flaws, but our currently allowed ones are much more flawed than some currently banned ones.

No, you're wrong, stop being silly.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Ah, thanks.



Lawl.

Okay, so in that case, what's the problem? Blastline camping is already possible on Castle Siege and RC. Onett has cars that will kill blastline campers, and hiding on the blastline ON A MOVING STAGE is a hair from suicide.

well in that mks defense, that was a very dangerous position for me to be in. She could of very easily SLed me out of inhale. And i just happened to put myself between her and the blast zone, so it was quite situational what i did. We were at the platform heavy part of RC where you have the little donut bridge. Before it descends back to the ship.

I didnt necessarily, INTEND to camp the blastzone on ddd. It just happened and i took the risk of getting ***** in the face.

 

[ADHD]

Quote tags: they're all the rage.

We have a stagelist that caters to characters who are more adaptable to stages. People like ZSS, DDD, Pikachu. Characters that do well on all kinds of different stages, as opposed to flat stages with minimal platforms and transformations.

The 9 starter system hardly caters to aerial characters. If we wanted to cater to aerial characters, we wouldn't have FD, would we? No, we put in as many stages as we can that don't outright unbalance that game so that the characters who are good at adapting to different kinds of stages, and the players who are the same way, get the bonus they should have.

No, you do. Aerial catchers will always be good on stage 1. Wario, DDD, metaknight.. you name it. Floaty characters such as ZSS, and pikachu will benefit form this as well. They are always better on the stages that grounded characters have trouble with the terrain. Game 1 will ALWAYS be that scenario with a 9-stage starter list. Grounded stages are there for a reasonn...

This is the whole reason I am arguing. Metaknight and aerial based characters are not supposed to have advantages the entire set for a REASON, they counterpick, hard. That and they are immune to ground terrain unless it's very specific.

Whatever, we can't cater to ground based characters but we can to aerial based ones. Something is flawed here, especially when the aerial based ones are perfectly fine on neutrals. And neutrals do exist, none of this theory-crafting bull****. Everyone is just trying to deter around from anything grounded, let's play on a custom stage please (OS make one with only a box.)

 

[Raziek]

No, you do. Aerial catchers will always be good on stage 1. Wario, DDD, metaknight.. you name it. Floaty characters such as ZSS, and pikachu will benefit form this as well. They are always better on the stages that grounded characters have trouble with the terrain. Game 1 will ALWAYS be that scenario with a 9-stage starter list. Grounded stages are there for a reasonn...

This is the whole reason I am arguing. Metaknight and aerial based characters are not supposed to have advantages the entire set for a REASON, they counterpick, hard. That and they are immune to ground terrain unless it's very specific.

Whatever, we can't cater to ground based characters but we can to aerial based ones. Something is flawed here, especially when the aerial based ones are perfectly fine on neutrals. And neutrals do exist, none of this theory-crafting bull****. Everyone is just trying to deter around from anything grounded, let's play on a custom stage please (OS make one with only a box.)

The fact that Aerial characters are more versatile on most of the legal stages than the ground characters is not a problem with the stagelist, it's with the characters. If ground characters are not versatile, WHY WOULD WE CATER TO THEM? We don't even cater to aerial characters anyway, they just HAPPEN TO BE MORE VERSATILE.

Seriously, what don't you get about this? You choose to play a limited, but strong in certain set-ups, character. This doesn't mean you get a counter-pick for game 1 just because your character is flawed.

Edit: And one quick question for you. If you believe there ARE "neutral" stages, name them specifically.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Okay, so in that case, what's the problem?

i guess the inherent problem would be stalling. Anyone in the cast with a decent back throw and projectile can just camp there the whole 8 minutes. The cars are not that hard to pshield either. I can easily see onett as being a circle camp fest as well. The low ceiling and close blast zones dont do it good either

The difference between a place like Onett and RC/CS is that RC is a continuous movement type of transformation. You adapt as you move through the obstacle course. Blast zones are not entirely fixed to one particular spot the whole 8 minutes.

Think of RC as like, 4-5 different transformations that the opponents gradually walk or jump into. The change is subtle, and the platforms spawn in. Where as a place like CS, the opponents are temporarily teleported to a large invisible final d type stage then to 1 of the 3 Fire Emblem themed stages. This change, happens suddendly. Unlike RC however, the blast zones on CS stay fairly consistent, so you can walk off people in a CG when the stage sends you to the intermediate final d esk stage. Where as you can realistically walk off CGs on the very platformy part of RC. This means walk offs become more situational, on a place like Onett. The stage never changes cept for the cars, and the platforms in the middle folding in on themselves. So if i got a grab on a CG character on onett facing the blast zone, they're ****ed.

Spoiler

unless a car comes

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No, you do. Aerial catchers will always be good on stage 1. Wario, DDD, metaknight.. you name it. Floaty characters such as ZSS, and pikachu will benefit form this as well. They are always better on the stages that grounded characters have trouble with the terrain. Game 1 will ALWAYS be that scenario with a 9-stage starter list. Grounded stages are there for a reasonn...

This is the whole reason I am arguing. Metaknight and aerial based characters are not supposed to have advantages the entire set for a REASON, they counterpick, hard. That and they are immune to ground terrain unless it's very specific.

Whatever, we can't cater to ground based characters but we can to aerial based ones. Something is flawed here, especially when the aerial based ones are perfectly fine on neutrals. And neutrals do exist, none of this theory-crafting bull****. Everyone is just trying to deter around from anything grounded, let's play on a custom stage please (OS make one with only a box.)

You're missing the point. Aerial characters are more capable of adapting to stages that aren't exactly great for them (like, say, FD or SV), and therefore when the list is made up of equal stages that are good for them and good for ground-based characters, obviously the ground-based, unadaptable characters are going to get the short end of the stick-they're WORSE CHARACTERS.


EDIT: Raziek beat me to it. Also, ADHD said that he considered the following to be neutral stages: FD, BF, SV, PS1, and YI IIRC. Gonna assume it's a coincidence that 4 of those are in diddy's top 5 stages.

 

[Judo777]

Ok guys i think u are missing the point. Just because the 9 stage list gives aerial characters and advantage on overall stages that is not the point. While Wario maybe better on say BF or w/e stages ur referring to overall he is not significantly buffed in comparison to all the other legal stages.

For instance take any 2 random characters. I'll say Wario and Bowser. While BF and or halberd or w/e stage is good for wario it isn't a signifcantly different matchup for wario vs Bowser on all the other legal stages.

If u compare say diddy kong and ness (why not) and then you look at the MU on every stage that is legal there are obviously a few stages that sway the MU in each of the others favor. Ness will probably get a buff on RC (i have been told thats a good ness stage) so that would probably not be a good starter because it sways the MU heavily in 1 direction. Now if u compare diddy kong vs ness on FD or SV the MU looks significantly different than it would if u played on say BF, Frigate, Delf, Hal, CS or all of the other legal stages.

Now granted idk ness stages so im shooting in the dark but i guess what im saying is if u compared the MU on every single stage and took the MU ratio on the majority of all legal stages and then set that MU as the starter then chances are FD and SV would NOT have that MU ratio for diddy cause diddy gets a considerable buff compared to alot of characters on those stages.

So lets talk numbers i know now.

Snake is Sheiks best high tier MU arguably (set at 55-45). On BF its probably 55-45 cause that stage is very good for both. FD its probably a little more in sheiks favor cause sheik can outcamp snake if they use needles right (5-5). SV same as BF. YI probably more in snakes favor because of the slants and the plat helps snake and not sheik so 6-4. Lylat probably snakes favor at 6-4. Delf probably snakes favor maybe even or snakes favor 55-45. Halberd probably even still because its both characters best stage arguably ( i wouldn't cp it but i wouldn't ban it either) CS probably 6-4 snake. On PS1 it's probably even at 50-50. PS2 its probably actually swung in sheiks favor 55-45 (go figure its my cp). Picto is probably 50-50.
Norfair its probably swung in sheiks favor 55-45 (another cp arguably sheiks best stage). Frigate in snakes favor porbably 65-35 (my ban). GG also probably 65-35 (although i dont know the stage so maybe not). RC is probably snakes favor 6-4.

These numbers are really rough and probably dont swing as far as i say but i use them for consistency. So the average MU ratio is 55-45 or 6-4 so now we look at all the stages and remove around those numbers. So Frigate and GG are gone and Norfair and PS2 are gone. Then we get rid of picto which is probably a lil better for sheik than ps1 and RC which is probably a lil better for snake. Next we get rid of FD for sheik and CS for snake. Next we strike YI for snake and PS1 for sheik. Then Lylat for snake and Sv for sheik and u are left with Halberd and BF and game 1 usually goes to BF. So BF is the best stage for the MU. (because with the 9 stages list it always goes to BF)

IF u did the same with diddy you would NOT get FD,SV,BF or PS1 because those are diddys 4 best stages which doesnt reflect his average MU with most of the cast.

 

[Twin_Scimitar]

So, its okay to make those 3 characters better? Why?
Shouldn't they be left alone like every other character?
Why bolster them?
The reason for 9 is because 7 was too few. not arbitrarily, but that similar to a 5 stage starter list, it began to favor less than a handful of characters, which shouldn't occur.
That defeats the purpose of having stage striking, since the attempt is to come to the most neutral stage.

Truth be told, the only one that really defeats this concept is MK.

You just justified a starter list that has Meta Knight start on Brinstar or Norfair.

You're looking at this backwards.

You're saying "Here are our stages" then "So what if Diddy gets an advantage? He's good on the starter stages, why didn't you pick Diddy?"

What I'm saying is "Here's Diddy, he gets an advantage on these types of stages. We shouldn't set up a starter list to where he gets an auto-advantage anymore than we should have an auto-advantage for Meta Knight, despite the fact taht MK is good on like a zillion stages and Diddy only a handful". This is followed by me facepalming when people say it isn't fair for Diddy to start on a stage that makes him better.

I don't think it's fair to compare Diddy's Counterpick/good stages to Meta Knights. As Shadowlink84 rightly said MK just kind of breaks the whole counterpick system (and not just stagewise, but that's a different matter of course). So basically I think it's bs to compare Diddy starting on BF to MK starting on Norfair.

I'm sure that OS and the rest of the SBR almost completely ignored Meta Knight when trying to balance the stage starter list because of the futility of making a list of stages where he actually has a close to equal amount of "good" and "bad" matchups. This has been stated multiple times and in multiple ways, but they all sound something like this: "We are not going to artificially nerf MK by catering the stage list to water him down". Therefore bringing him up as an example for why Diddy is treated in a certain way under the 9 starter system is utter bilge. You could use Snake as an example but then of course it would be much more reasonable and wouldn't provide the dramatic contrast for you argument now would it?

Just didn't like how that was done, though I'd point it out. Back to lurking then.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I love you TS.

<3

Have a cookie

 

[Damage Points]

Who still cares about all this crap. Like your guys arenputtinf your heart and soul and losing sleep over this. Either play the game or don't. Quit crying.

 

[Overswarm]

Who still cares about all this crap. Like your guys arenputtinf your heart and soul and losing sleep over this. Either play the game or don't. Quit crying.

Some of us make a living this way

 

[-Ran]

Others just have a lot of personal pride in doing things right.