So, Why Should You Play as Link Over Toon Link?

[SpaghettiWeegee]

More appropriately titled: Choosing the Right Link for You

So, some of you may be wondering, 'why should I choose to play as Link, when everyone knows that Toon Link is the better character'. Generally, you're right; when the two characters are compared, Toon Link is just better. He's faster, he has a better recovery, he's harder to hit, his attacks are quicker, and the list goes on. However, while on paper it may seem that Link is much worse than Toon Link, in practice, it's a different story. Which one you, specifically, are better at, depends completely on your playstyle. So, if you're having trouble deciding which Link to use, you've come to the right place. Here, I'll list the main differences between both characters, enlighten you on the pros and cons of each, and help you find which one you're better suited playing as. So, let's get started.

Main Differences

Despite sharing the same namesake, Link and Toon Link are two totally different fighters. Toon Link is lighter and faster, while Link is heavier and stronger. To go more in-depth..

Link

-Has slower, but more powerful attacks
-Sword has greater range
-Fsmash has less ability to combo
-Usmash deals out a set of three slashes, making it quite dangerous, but quite punishible as well
-Bombs deal more damage, but have slightly less blast radius
-Arrows travel considerably faster, and have greater range when fully charged, but have less range when uncharged.
-Spin attack on the ground can only hit once
-Boomerang can push and pull opponents, but can only hit when going outward
-Grab has greater range
-Heavier, making him harder to KO upwards, but making his off-the-edge game worse
-Falls faster
-Has a worse recovery
-Dtilt can spike
-Has a much larger learning curve
-Has a worse rolldodge, but a better spotdodge
-His attack moves typically have more lag, either before or after

To sum it all up, Link is heavier and slower, but more powerful, with slightly more versitile special attacks.

Toon Link

-Has faster, but less powerful attacks
-Sword has less range
-Fsmash can combo, however, getting it to do so is very difficult, making Link's Fsmash a better kill move
-Usmash only deals out a single, upward slice, making it less dangerous, but also less punishible
-Bombs deal out less damage, but have a slightly larger blast radius
-Toon Link's uncharged arrows travel farther than Link's uncharged arrows, but Toon Link's fully charged arrows don't travel farther than Link's fully charged arrows
-Arrows travel more slowly, making them easier to defend against
-Spin attack on the ground can hit multiple times
-Boomerang does not push or pull opponents, but can hit twice(once when thrown outward, and once when returning)
-Grab has less range
-Lighter, making him easier to KO upwards, but giving him much better off-the-edge game
-Has a much better recovery move
-Has less of a learning curve, making him easier to pick up
-Has a better rolldodge, but a slightly worse spotdodge
-Bombs don't have as much knockback
-Has less lag when attacking
-Dair can spike
-Shorter

Basically, he's faster and lighter, but weaker in the attack category.


Pros and Cons


Link Pros
-Is good at racking up damage at both close range and long
-Has a rather good projectile game
-Has a whole lot of ATs
-Difficult to KO upwardly
-Has good jab-locking capabilities
-Can block many projectiles when standing idle
-Has pretty good edgehogging potential
-Good KOing potential
-Has pretty good directional influence abilities

Link Cons
-Some of his moves have a whole lot of lag, making them easily punishible
-Easily chaingrabbed
-Has a poor recovery
-Has a very bad off-the-edge game
-Falls very quickly, making his already bad recovering potential slightly worse
-Teather recovery is easily edgehogged
-Missing a grab leaves him very vulnerable
-Oftentimes faces a bad matchup

So, all in all, Link has a decent game, but you're going to have to learn to compensate for his many disadvantages in order to play him effectively.

Toon Link Pros

-Very fast attacks
-Very good movement capabilities
-Decent, and very versitile, projectile game
-Great kill moves
-Off the edge game is pretty good
-Has a good recovery move
-Short, making him hard to hit
-Can block many projectiles when standing idle
-Has many ATs
-Has good edgehogging tactics
-Lightweight, making recovering and escaping from combos/chaingrabs easier

Toon Link Cons
-Somewhat short sword range
-Lightweight, making him easy to KO
-Missing a grab leaves him very vulnerable
-Generally below-average top-tier matchups
-Teather recovery can be edgehogged

So, Toon Link pros certainly outweigh his cons, making him a really good character to use.

Choosing the Right Link for You.

By now, you're aware of the differences between Link and Toon Link, and you understand the pros and cons of each. Now, it's time to choose which Link better suits your playstyle.

Generally speaking, if you're more of an agressive player, Toon Link would probably serve your playstyle better. If you're a defensive player who loves to projectile spam, however, Link will suit you better. To go into detail:

-If you don't want to memorize a lot of ATs, you're going to want to play as Toon Link. This isn't to say that Toon Link doesn't have as many ATs as Link, it's just that you don't need to learn them all to play him effectively
-If you're prone to getting KO'd upwardly, you might prefer Link
-If you like to run away from foes/camp, then Toon Link is for you
-If you love to projectile spam, than Link is slightly better suited for you, given his more defensive playstyle
-If you need quick attacks, then obviously, you're going to want to play as Toon Link
-If you leik mudkipz, then go somewhere else. We can't help you here...
-If you like power behind your attacks, you'll probably prefer Link
-If you're poor at recovering, play as Toon Link
-If you like to be the underdog, you should use Link

And most importantly...

-If you love to spam the grab move... Then you probably shouldn't be playing as either of these characters...


And that's pretty much it. But remember, in the end, it's completely up to you who you use. Even if your playstyle matches Toon Link's perfectly, but you just prefer the look of regular Link, then by all means, play as Link, and, likewise, if you just like Toon Link better, than go ahead and play as him. 'Sup to you.

So, that about wraps it up. Thoughts? Improvements that could be made? Feel free to drop me a line.

 

[Scabe]

Niice work with this. This should be a nice answer to all those who are confused whether if they should main Link or Toon Link.

I like your point about Toon Link being more agressive and Link being more defensive, this is so true and it's reflected in every battle I have with my brother. He mains Toon Link while I main Link.

I get the feeling that every matchup of Link's is slightly better when you use Toon Link.

Personally I prefer Link because he's just cooler . Also, I like the way he shorthops because, it's real short and he falls pretty fast unlike his floaty counterpart who jumps too high for my liking. Also jab lock setups are sooo ****.

Toon Link actually has ALOT of AT's, just check this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228712.

Another benefit from playing Link well is that you get alot of compliments when they see how **** you are with one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Toon Link actually has ALOT of AT's, just check this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228712

Wow... Toon Link has... a whole lot more ATs than I was aware of. I'll have to try a few out sometime, thanks.

That did call for a smaaaaaaal edit to the wall of text above me, so thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Smash_Of_Fate]

Nice read, I actually play as Toon Link over Link because Toon Link's style closely resembled that of Melee Link (who was my main in Melee). Now after reading this though I see I play as Toon Link because I'm more of an aggressive player.

I would like to take the time to learn how to play Link in Brawl though after getting wrecked by Hylian. He renewed my faith in Link for Brawl. <3

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

I would like to take the time to learn how to play Link in Brawl though after getting wrecked by Hylian. He renewed my faith in Link for Brawl. <3

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194177

That should help you out a bit, then.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why Link? dunno he just flows better when I play him over Toon Link. That and I like how Link plays over Toon Link's floaty nature.

Granted it seems like I'm coaching Toon Link's in my area how to play better with him even though I barely touch Toon Link, I just remember how his AT's are very simular if not identical to Link's.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Now I've got no issue with the Link mains. Scabe's my mate. But I've got to say that there's a considerable amount of info that is incorrect in this thread. It was to be expected being in the Link boards, so it's only natural that you wouldn't know much about Toon.

So I'm just gonna clear a few points up. As long as you're ok with that.

First up, Toon's F-smash. If the opponent knows what he's doing, the second hit should never connect. So when you said that it is an excellent kill move, well that's just wrong. It may have the power there, but landing the second hit is never guaranteed.

Comparing the U-smashes. Toon's is better because Link's can be DI'ed out of to avoid the last hit. Luckily for Toon, his U-smash only hits once.

The arrows. Link's have more range? That all depends on how you use them. If we're talking about quickdrawing (uncharged arrows in general) then Toon's arrows have much more range. So I'd correct that to saying, Toon's have more range uncharged and Link's have more range charged.

With Toon's Boomerang, you forgot to mention how great it is that it hits on the way back like it's supposed to. That is a definite pro for Toon when comparing them.

With the grabs, yes Link has greater range, but who's is less punishable if you miss?

Toon's Bombs don't have as much comboing potential? Don't make me laugh. Because they don't hit the opponent as far, that means they actually have more comboing potential. Think about it.

You forgot to mention that Link can be comboed much easier than Toon because of the weight/floatiness difference. You did mention the bad parts about being lighter and floatier like how Toon gets killed up the top faster, but you failed to mention that because Toon is lighter and floatier, he gets out of combos and chain grabs much faster which makes it harder to rack up damage on him.

Another thing is that Toon's spam game is better then Link's. Toon out camps Link. That is a massive pro. Toon has arguably the second best projectile spam in the game, second only to Falco. I see that Scabe showed you the AT and Trick thread. As you can see, Toon has many more AT's then Link and yet reading through, you get the idea that it's the other way around. Especially reading, "If you don't want to memorize a lot of ATs, you're going to want to play as Toon Link." I'm sorry, what?

I also see that you mentioned Toon's trouble with higher tiers and in general matchups, but failed to mention Link's matchups. From memory, they don't look that great.

"If you love to projectile spam, than Link is slightly better suited for you." What is this I don't even. Toon's projectile game is superior.

"If you take pleasure in edgehogging, you'll enjoy using Link." What's wrong with Toon's edgehogging? If anything, you should choose Toon just in case you screw up the edgehog. At least Toon would be ok.


There's just so much stuff.
You made a point of saying D-tilt can spike for Link, but failed to mention that Dair can spike for Toon.

I just get the feeling that you don't know enough about Toon to be writing this sorta thread. It's bordering on bias. I understand that this is the Link boards, so of course this kinda thread will be favouring Link, so I compensated for that. In the end though it was just such a frustrating read that I had to say something.

I actually like the Link boards and I'm happy to see new threads being made and all, but you need to get the facts straight.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Now I've got no issue with the Link mains. Scabe's my mate. But I've got to say that there's a considerable amount of info that is incorrect in this thread. It was to be expected being in the Link boards, so it's only natural that you wouldn't know much about Toon.

Blasphemy...

So I'm just gonna clear a few points up. As long as you're ok with that.

You're bordering on condecending here, but please continue...

First up, Toon's F-smash. If the opponent knows what he's doing, the second hit should never connect. So when you said that it is an excellent kill move, well that's just wrong. It may have the power there, but landing the second hit is never guaranteed.

Ah, but Fsmash can be stalled (oh the mindgames), so timing a block, dodge, or counterattack is never a sure thing. If the person playing as Toon Link is skilled at timing correctly, this attack can very consistantly be combo'd.

Comparing the U-smashes. Toon's is better because Link's can be DI'ed out of to avoid the last hit. Luckily for Toon, his U-smash only hits once.

True, if you're looking at it as a KOing tool. I meant it was 'more dangerous' because Link's Usmash typically deals out more damage. Besides, Link's Utilt does about the same thing as Toon Link's Usmash, anyway...

The arrows. Link's have more range? That all depends on how you use them. If we're talking about quickdrawing (uncharged arrows in general) then Toon's arrows have much more range. So I'd correct that to saying, Toon's have more range uncharged and Link's have more range charged.

So, you agree with me that, in the long run, Link's arrows have more range...

With Toon's Boomerang, you forgot to mention how great it is that it hits on the way back like it's supposed to. That is a definite pro for Toon when comparing them.

Ah, quite right. I should go fix that now...

With the grabs, yes Link has greater range, but who's is less punishable if you miss?

They're both equally punishable...

Toon's Bombs don't have as much comboing potential? Don't make me laugh. Because they don't hit the opponent as far, that means they actually have more comboing potential. Think about it.

In my experience, Toon Link's bombs are more difficult to combo with. Feel free to disagree...

You forgot to mention that Link can be comboed much easier than Toon because of the weight/floatiness difference. You did mention the bad parts about being lighter and floatier like how Toon gets killed up the top faster, but you failed to mention that because Toon is lighter and floatier, he gets out of combos and chain grabs much faster which makes it harder to rack up damage on him.

For combos, Link actually has numerous techniques for escaping them (DI at the most basic), so I decided to leave that out, however, I did, in fact, mention that Link was VERY prone to being chaingrabbed.

Another thing is that Toon's spam game is better then Link's. Toon out camps Link. That is a massive pro. Toon has arguably the second best projectile spam in the game, second only to Falco. I see that Scabe showed you the AT and Trick thread. As you can see, Toon has many more AT's then Link and yet reading through, you get the idea that it's the other way around. Especially reading, "If you don't want to memorize a lot of ATs, you're going to want to play as Toon Link." I'm sorry, what?

Which one has the better spam game is all up to opinion, I suppose...

And, in order to play Link effectively, you have to memorize ATs, unlike Toon Link, where you don't, in my opinion...

I also see that you mentioned Toon's trouble with higher tiers and in general matchups, but failed to mention Link's matchups. From memory, they don't look that great.

I stated that Toon Link has unfavorable matchups against only higher tiers. I said nothing bad about his matchups in general.

"If you love to projectile spam, than Link is slightly better suited for you." What is this I don't even. Toon's projectile game is superior.

Wut?


No, seriously, Link's arrows travel faster, making them harder to defend against, his bombs deal more damage, his boomerang can be used for all sorts of mindgames, the list goes on...

Are you suuuuure you know what you're talking about?

"If you take pleasure in edgehogging, you'll enjoy using Link." What's wrong with Toon's edgehogging? If anything, you should choose Toon just in case you screw up the edgehog. At least Toon would be ok.

Link has, at least in my experience, more effective edgehogging tactics.

There's just so much stuff.
You made a point of saying D-tilt can spike for Link, but failed to mention that Dair can spike for Toon.

Quite right, I'll need to include that, thank you.

I just get the feeling that you don't know enough about Toon to be writing this sorta thread. It's bordering on bias. I understand that this is the Link boards, so of course this kinda thread will be favouring Link, so I compensated for that. In the end though it was just such a frustrating read that I had to say something.

Not to resort to dirty tactics, but, are you sure you know enough about Link to be making these accusations?

I actually like the Link boards and I'm happy to see new threads being made and all, but you need to get the facts straight.

And thus, the pot called the kettle black.

Anyway, thank you for reading. I hope you at least enjoyed yourself.

 

[ndayday]

I was gonna write up a response in favor of TL for everything you said, but man. Too much work for me. I really think one of the things that is wrong with this is that you talk about TLs weaknesses but don't talk about Links weaknesses in the same field.

Best example I can think of is the arrows bit. Sure they have more range, but you're only telling half the story. I'll try to get more TL mains in here, for the sake of accuracy.

Although Link mains would be nice too. :L
Good thread, just need to polish it off a bit imo so it doesn't seem biased.

 

[Sosuke]

For TL:

Fsmash isn't really that great because it can be DI'd out of.
Does Link really have a worse roll dodge then TL?? TL's roll dodge is REALLY bad. His spot dodge is pretty good though.
And I wouldn't really say bombs have less combo potential. But then again, I don't really know how good Link's bomb game is. >_>


That's pretty much it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Now I've got no issue with the Link mains. Scabe's my mate. But I've got to say that there's a considerable amount of info that is incorrect in this thread. It was to be expected being in the Link boards, so it's only natural that you wouldn't know much about Toon.

Blasphemy...

I see nothing wrong with my post. I am mearly speaking from what I read and what I read was pointing towards the possibility that you didn't know that much about Toon. I was also trying to cut you some slack, you know, go easy on you.

So I'm just gonna clear a few points up. As long as you're ok with that.

You're bordering on condecending here, but please continue...

You've gotta be joking right? How was that condecending? My intention was to help this thread out and to clear up some obvious flaws in the most curtious way I could manage. If you take offence from those two sentences then it's obviously not my problem.

First up, Toon's F-smash. If the opponent knows what he's doing, the second hit should never connect. So when you said that it is an excellent kill move, well that's just wrong. It may have the power there, but landing the second hit is never guaranteed.

Ah, but Fsmash can be stalled (oh the mindgames), so timing a block, dodge, or counterattack is never a sure thing. If the person playing as Toon Link is skilled at timing correctly, this attack can very consistantly be combo'd.

I'm not sure who you're playing, but at high level of play which it should always be assumed, you simply will not connect the second hit even if you 'time it'. Lighter characters don't need to do anything except double jump away, medium characters only need to DI up then double jump away and even the heavier characters can avoid it by DI'ing down and shielding before the second hit can even come out. It is never guaranteed and as such is not a reliable kill move. That's all there is to it. I shouldn't even have to argue this point.

Comparing the U-smashes. Toon's is better because Link's can be DI'ed out of to avoid the last hit. Luckily for Toon, his U-smash only hits once.

True, if you're looking at it as a KOing tool. I meant it was 'more dangerous' because Link's Usmash typically deals out more damage. Besides, Link's Utilt does about the same thing as Toon Link's Usmash, anyway...

More dangerous? If it doesn't kill consistently, it's not dangerous. This is the same scenario as Toon's F-smash. At high level of play, they become much less useful cause you won't connect the last hit that really matters. Now if it doesn't kill, how is it dangerous? They DI out and punish you. That's not dangerous. Again, why am I even arguing this point?

The arrows. Link's have more range? That all depends on how you use them. If we're talking about quickdrawing (uncharged arrows in general) then Toon's arrows have much more range. So I'd correct that to saying, Toon's have more range uncharged and Link's have more range charged.

So, you agree with me that, in the long run, Link's arrows have more range...

What long run? Do you mean that once it's charged it goes further? Well good luck charging that's all I can say. If you have enough time to charge the arrows, then you have better options then charging an arrow. Besides, how much range do you need? Toon's arrows also travel all the way across FD when fully charged, but why would you want to charge it? Link's charged arrows are better then Toon's charged arrows, yes, that's a fact. But Toon's don't need to charge their arrows to get distance.

With Toon's Boomerang, you forgot to mention how great it is that it hits on the way back like it's supposed to. That is a definite pro for Toon when comparing them.

Ah, quite right. I should go fix that now...

Thank you.

With the grabs, yes Link has greater range, but who's is less punishable if you miss?

They're both equally punishable...

Not quite.
According to the frame data.
Toon's standing grab goes for 84 frames while Link's standing grab goes for 85.
Toon's dash grab goes for 94 frames while Link's goes for 96.
I know it's not much of a difference XD, but that point was more of a joke anyway. I never said specificaly, Toon's grabs are faster, so you can pretty much ignore this if you want to. I would.

Toon's Bombs don't have as much comboing potential? Don't make me laugh. Because they don't hit the opponent as far, that means they actually have more comboing potential. Think about it.

In my experience, Toon Link's bombs are more difficult to combo with. Feel free to disagree...

But it's just common sense. Toon's bombs don't blow them too far away for you to follow up. You may be thinking of Link in the air and throwing bombs down then comboing into aerials, but that is no different for toon, you just need to be closer to the ground which means there's less chance of them DI'ing the bomb too far away from you to follow up. In any case, Toon's Bomb can combo no matter how they are thrown thanks to the lack of power.

You forgot to mention that Link can be comboed much easier than Toon because of the weight/floatiness difference. You did mention the bad parts about being lighter and floatier like how Toon gets killed up the top faster, but you failed to mention that because Toon is lighter and floatier, he gets out of combos and chain grabs much faster which makes it harder to rack up damage on him.

For combos, Link actually has numerous techniques for escaping them (DI at the most basic), so I decided to leave that out, however, I did, in fact, mention that Link was VERY prone to being chaingrabbed.

What does Link have to escape combos that Toon doesn't have on top of his light weight and floatiness. And yes, you did mention it as a con for Link but you didn't mention it as a pro for Toon.

Another thing is that Toon's spam game is better then Link's. Toon out camps Link. That is a massive pro. Toon has arguably the second best projectile spam in the game, second only to Falco. I see that Scabe showed you the AT and Trick thread. As you can see, Toon has many more AT's then Link and yet reading through, you get the idea that it's the other way around. Especially reading, "If you don't want to memorize a lot of ATs, you're going to want to play as Toon Link." I'm sorry, what?

Which one has the better spam game is all up to opinion, I suppose...

And, in order to play Link effectively, you have to memorize ATs, unlike Toon Link, where you don't, in my opinion...

If everyone's opinion was equal then there'd be no right or wrong and if there's no right or wrong, there's chaos.
So you can't just say that it's up to opinion. They may have similar projectiles but Toon is able to use them better thanks to his jump height and floatiness. He is simply able to throw more out in less time while still spacing. Then it's just up to the player as to how smartly they use the projectiles to force approaches, create walls and set up frame traps.

I also see that you mentioned Toon's trouble with higher tiers and in general matchups, but failed to mention Link's matchups. From memory, they don't look that great.

I stated that Toon Link has unfavorable matchups against only higher tiers. I said nothing bad about his matchups in general.

"but failed to mention Link's matchups. From memory, they don't look that great." In other words, you gave Toon a con for bad matchups in higher tiers, but didn't give Link a con for bad matchups at all, which I thought was just a bit bias.

"If you love to projectile spam, than Link is slightly better suited for you." What is this I don't even. Toon's projectile game is superior.

Wut?

No, seriously, Link's arrows travel faster, making them harder to defend against, his bombs deal more damage, his boomerang can be used for all sorts of mindgames, the list goes on...
Are you suuuuure you know what you're talking about?

It's simple. Toon has a better projectile game and yet you said if you love to projectile spam, than Link is slightly better suited for you. Which is just wrong. If you say that it's up to the person's opinion then you are implying that there are two sides to the story and yet this sentence is still in the OP which could be seen as very unproffesional and bias especially if the statement is in contention. I myself say that the statement is just plain wrong and should be changed to Toon Link is the one you should choose, but if it makes things easier for you by not having to admit that Toon's projectile game is better, you could always just delete the statement altogether. Link's arrows may travel faster but you need to charge them or they go no where. Slightly extra damage from bombs will not make you outcamp Toon. There's much more to projectile spam then meets the eye. I touched on this earlier.

"If you take pleasure in edgehogging, you'll enjoy using Link." What's wrong with Toon's edgehogging? If anything, you should choose Toon just in case you screw up the edgehog. At least Toon would be ok.

Link has, at least in my experience, more effective edgehogging tactics.

There's no difference. They both have a Zair to renew their invincibility frames. They just generally have the same tools. The difference is it's safer for Toon to be taking risks off stage then it is for Link.

There's just so much stuff.
You made a point of saying D-tilt can spike for Link, but failed to mention that Dair can spike for Toon.

Quite right, I'll need to include that, thank you.

Thank you.

I just get the feeling that you don't know enough about Toon to be writing this sorta thread. It's bordering on bias. I understand that this is the Link boards, so of course this kinda thread will be favouring Link, so I compensated for that. In the end though it was just such a frustrating read that I had to say something.

Not to resort to dirty tactics, but, are you sure you know enough about Link to be making these accusations?

I know enough about Link. Link is one of the characters that I've actually studied because I used to use him casually. I've read all the guides from top to bottom. I've even written my own thread on Link's AT's and Tricks based loosely on the Toon one. I've also versed the best Link in Austalia quite a few times (Scabe ftw). I'd hardly call these accusations though. It all depends on how you take it and you've obviously just taken it badly. I appologise if I've offended you.

I actually like the Link boards and I'm happy to see new threads being made and all, but you need to get the facts straight.

And thus, the pot called the kettle black.

Anyway, thank you for reading. I hope you at least enjoyed yourself.

Now this was just plain cheeky XD. Rest assured that I do know what I'm talking about and I'm only here to help. If this goes down bad then it was not my intent. I also don't enjoy this sort of thing just for the record. I'm not here to troll.

 

[VietGeek]

Ah, but Fsmash can be stalled (oh the mindgames), so timing a block, dodge, or counterattack is never a sure thing. If the person playing as Toon Link is skilled at timing correctly, this attack can very consistantly be combo'd.

This statement is contradictory.

You are referring to a move that 1. does not combo (not even by Brawl standards) as a "consistent" move that can combo into its finale, then refute that statement by saying that the TL player needs to basically play a guessing game with the game more so than himself or the opponent. That's not a combo and it's almost illegal to call it a string too.

If you have a move with invincibility frames and a hitbox, you can stuff it out almost every time (Dolphin Slash, Rest), especially with the huge amount of time you are given to react from the retrieving side of the attack due to this game's hitlag constant. No amount of skill from the Toon Link player can change this fact; rather it would be the lack of skill from the other player that would lead to the "combo."

Also shieldstun in this game is like...what...nonexistent (I wish this were a hyperbole but it's almost not)? Unless you push your opponent off the edge or something, they can probably sit in their shield or roll out of the way, grab you, jump away, and/or counter attack. Lots of options, but for the opponent, not you.

Really, TL's fsmash is trash. In regards to "mindgames" and general utility, Link's Fsmash > TL's fsmash.

I don't play this game but I just wanted to point that out.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

I see nothing wrong with my post. I am mearly speaking from what I read and what I read was pointing towards the possibility that you didn't know that much about Toon. I was also trying to cut you some slack, you know, go easy on you.




You've gotta be joking right? How was that condecending? My intention was to help this thread out and to clear up some obvious flaws in the most curtious way I could manage. If you take offence from those two sentences then it's obviously not my problem.




I'm not sure who you're playing, but at high level of play which it should always be assumed, you simply will not connect the second hit even if you 'time it'. Lighter characters don't need to do anything except double jump away, medium characters only need to DI up then double jump away and even the heavier characters can avoid it by DI'ing down and shielding before the second hit can even come out. It is never guaranteed and as such is not a reliable kill move. That's all there is to it. I shouldn't even have to argue this point.




More dangerous? If it doesn't kill consistently, it's not dangerous. This is the same scenario as Toon's F-smash. At high level of play, they become much less useful cause you won't connect the last hit that really matters. Now if it doesn't kill, how is it dangerous? They DI out and punish you. That's not dangerous. Again, why am I even arguing this point?




What long run? Do you mean that once it's charged it goes further? Well good luck charging that's all I can say. If you have enough time to charge the arrows, then you have better options then charging an arrow. Besides, how much range do you need? Toon's arrows also travel all the way across FD when fully charged, but why would you want to charge it? Link's charged arrows are better then Toon's charged arrows, yes, that's a fact. But Toon's don't need to charge their arrows to get distance.




Thank you.




Not quite.
According to the frame data.
Toon's standing grab goes for 84 frames while Link's standing grab goes for 85.
Toon's dash grab goes for 94 frames while Link's goes for 96.
I know it's not much of a difference XD, but that point was more of a joke anyway. I never said specificaly, Toon's grabs are faster, so you can pretty much ignore this if you want to. I would.




But it's just common sense. Toon's bombs don't blow them too far away for you to follow up. You may be thinking of Link in the air and throwing bombs down then comboing into aerials, but that is no different for toon, you just need to be closer to the ground which means there's less chance of them DI'ing the bomb too far away from you to follow up. In any case, Toon's Bomb can combo no matter how they are thrown thanks to the lack of power.




What does Link have to escape combos that Toon doesn't have on top of his light weight and floatiness. And yes, you did mention it as a con for Link but you didn't mention it as a pro for Toon.




If everyone's opinion was equal then there'd be no right or wrong and if there's no right or wrong, there's chaos.
So you can't just say that it's up to opinion. They may have similar projectiles but Toon is able to use them better thanks to his jump height and floatiness. He is simply able to throw more out in less time while still spacing. Then it's just up to the player as to how smartly they use the projectiles to force approaches, create walls and set up frame traps.




"but failed to mention Link's matchups. From memory, they don't look that great." In other words, you gave Toon a con for bad matchups in higher tiers, but didn't give Link a con for bad matchups at all, which I thought was just a bit bias.




It's simple. Toon has a better projectile game and yet you said if you love to projectile spam, than Link is slightly better suited for you. Which is just wrong. If you say that it's up to the person's opinion then you are implying that there are two sides to the story and yet this sentence is still in the OP which could be seen as very unproffesional and bias especially if the statement is in contention. I myself say that the statement is just plain wrong and should be changed to Toon Link is the one you should choose, but if it makes things easier for you by not having to admit that Toon's projectile game is better, you could always just delete the statement altogether. Link's arrows may travel faster but you need to charge them or they go no where. Slightly extra damage from bombs will not make you outcamp Toon. There's much more to projectile spam then meets the eye. I touched on this earlier.




There's no difference. They both have a Zair to renew their invincibility frames. They just generally have the same tools. The difference is it's safer for Toon to be taking risks off stage then it is for Link.




Thank you.




I know enough about Link. Link is one of the characters that I've actually studied because I used to use him casually. I've read all the guides from top to bottom. I've even written my own thread on Link's AT's and Tricks based loosely on the Toon one. I've also versed the best Link in Austalia quite a few times (Scabe ftw). I'd hardly call these accusations though. It all depends on how you take it and you've obviously just taken it badly. I appologise if I've offended you.




Now this was just plain cheeky XD. Rest assured that I do know what I'm talking about and I'm only here to help. If this goes down bad then it was not my intent. I also don't enjoy this sort of thing just for the record. I'm not here to troll.

Ok, not to get long winded or anything. I'll just tell it to you straight...

*Deep breath*

Thanks. This will help to polish up the thread. Any further arguing from this point would prove fruitless, after all, I'm not trying to say one character is better, I'm trying to help people find the one they're better suited playing as.

I should have all this stuff edited and ready to go within the hour.

 

[KillaFrmNY]

TL can recover but he has a worse move set. Link can make it back to the stage if DIed right, but if someone gets in the way goodbye. Therefore go TL if you want a better chance to win.

/discussion

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

TL can recover but he has a worse move set. Link can make it back to the stage if DIed right, but if someone gets in the way goodbye. Therefore go TL if you want a better chance to win.

/discussion

That's mostly situational, though...

And just looking at their recoveries doesn't tell the whole story...

But whatever. I've already mentioned these things anyway.

 

[freddy2298]

what sucks is that with marths deflect cancel both fsmashes

 

[Mota]

Just throwing out my 2 cents, TLs Usmash is much safer if you miss, stronger and can't be DI out of.
People usually see view Link as the stronger of the two, this isn't the case when you compare Usmash.

Toons Usmash deals 14% damage, while if all 3 hits connect, Links deals 15%. Correct me if I'm wrong. 1% difference ain't so bad

In terms of kill power. An uncharged Up-Smash on a Grounded Mario Opponent:
Toon Link kills a grounded Mario immediately in front of them on FD at 112%
Whereas Link kills at 130
Project Vertical: Kill Percents, Stage Ceilings, Character Usmash/Uair Knockback

Toon links Spam game is also imo more effective. There's not much to say, Toon Link just throws a lot more sh*t out in a shorter time, all the while able to space very well.

Haha don't be to amazed by the amount of Toons 'ATs' they're mostly situational and borderline useless, although that can be said to many of Links 'ATs' as well.

 

[Nitrix]

You can tell that a Link wrote this. I don't understand why Link has such a greater learning curve.

 

[Rizen]

2 cents:

You can tell that a Link wrote this. I don't understand why Link has such a greater learning curve.

Any mistake means terribly punishment and you have to read your opponent like a book because Link's sooo laggy. Everything is situational and using the ‘C’ stick and control stick are a must. Buffering is precise. Great DI and SDI are crucially important. Small stages and tourney stages rarely favor Link. And one has to know complex ATs and when to, and not to use them.

I always played Link and just hate the toon shading animation style. Link is worse in competitive areas; brawl is a shield and counter based game and Link is too punishable. Powershielding beats 95% of Link incredibly versatile potential. Link's easy to chain, combo, and infinite. Brawl's system favors floaty characters with edge sweetspotting and air dodges. Link can survive with good DI to 180% and above, but is painfully easy to gimp.
Spamming:
TLink’s range stays on screen longer, he can move and spam better, and throw in standard attacks faster. TLink is smaller and can landing combo from Zair better as a result.
Link can Nair/Bair/Zair cancel arrows and boomerangs and has longer Zair and higher priority bombs.
TLink’s spam gets better and better as he closes the distance, which is not hard. Their spam alone is about even but TL can improve his by jumping and approaching. TLink out-spams Link.

I just get the feeling that you don't know enough about Toon to be writing this sorta thread. It's bordering on bias. I understand that this is the Link boards, so of course this kinda thread will be favouring Link, so I compensated for that. In the end though it was just such a frustrating read that I had to say something.

I actually like the Link boards and I'm happy to see new threads being made and all, but you need to get the facts straight.

We like you too and I’ve got nothing against Toon Link players. It’s funny to hear someone say Link boards favor Link considering how pessimistic we Links usually are. Link is great in friendlys and non-tourney modes. TLink is the better tourney character.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

It’s funny to hear someone say Link boards favor Link considering how pessimistic we Links usually are. Link is great in friendlys and non-tourney modes. TLink is the better tourney character.

You, unfortunately, just hit the nail right on the head; if you want to compete in tourneys, you're probably going to want to play as Toon Link. I'm not saying that you can't use Link in tourneys, but for the most part, Toon Link is a better tourney character.

But, in my opinion, that makes victory as Link just that much sweeter.

Oh, and, yeah, TLink outspams Link, but Link should be used more for spamming, due to his more defensive playstyle. Or, at least, that's how I see it.

 

[pulse131]

this is a pretty cool thread. didnt even know it was here. suppose it could help people decide whether or not they want high tier or low tier.

 

[swordsaint]

You, unfortunately, just hit the nail right on the head; if you want to compete in tourneys, you're probably going to want to play as Toon Link. I'm not saying that you can't use Link in tourneys, but for the most part, Toon Link is a better tourney character.

But, in my opinion, that makes victory as Link just that much sweeter.

Oh, and, yeah, TLink outspams Link, but Link should be used more for spamming, due to his more defensive playstyle. Or, at least, that's how I see it.

Doesn't this mean that Toon Link is versatile and can play defensive if he wants to? In other words, Toon Link can play whatever **** style you want to.

 

[Rizen]

What do people think of Balanced Brawl?
Balanced Brawl part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpQkTMNLsBI&feature=channel"

BB part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJgfKP0kUgg&NR=1

@ SpaghettiWeegee: Do I know you?

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

@ SpaghettiWeegee: Do I know you?

Where from, do you think?

Oh, and @ swordsaint

True... I guess... But the same goes for Link. I was thinking in terms of their default playstyles.

Edit: 'Default' might not be the right word to use; 'More often utilized', sounds a bit more appropriate.

 

[pulse131]

came back and read the rest, seems there are a few things you left out or are mistaken at. ill pick em out later but one thing that i specifically remember, such as quickdraw can be charged

 

[Anonano]

You, unfortunately, just hit the nail right on the head; if you want to compete in tourneys, you're probably going to want to play as Toon Link. I'm not saying that you can't use Link in tourneys, but for the most part, Toon Link is a better tourney character.

I'm sorry, ultra-pessimistic statement here. But it's gotta be said.

If you want to compete in tournies, use Meta Knight.

Read here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

When I compared the points scored for tourney wins according to how Ankoku scores them, for a 13 month period, MK got 46.827 times as many points as any Links did.
There were 440-odd MKs who scored in the top 8 during this period.
There were only 18 Links.

I can't imagine its too much better for TL either.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

I'm sorry, ultra-pessimistic statement here. But it's gotta be said.

If you want to compete in tournies, use Meta Knight.

Read here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

When I compared the points scored for tourney wins according to how Ankoku scores them, for a 13 month period, MK got 46.827 times as many points as any Links did.
There were 440-odd MKs who scored in the top 8 during this period.
There were only 18 Links.

I can't imagine its too much better for TL either.

I was speaking in terms of Link or Toon Link, not in terms of the whole Brawl roster...

 

[Rizen]

I agree with FoxIOD with a few exceptions:

Link's arrows may travel faster but you need to charge them or they go no where.

Not true.
Direct uncharged arrow and bomb spacing:

(Distance of) 1 quickdraw, 2 SH arrow, 3 jumped arrow, 4 weak bomb toss, 5 Fbomb, 6 SH/jumped Fbomb.

What long run? Do you mean that once it's charged it goes further? Well good luck charging that's all I can say. If you have enough time to charge the arrows, then you have better options then charging an arrow.

I agree with one exception (0:50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IQM_aqR27U
Link can snipe.

But it's just common sense. Toon's bombs don't blow them too far away for you to follow up. You may be thinking of Link in the air and throwing bombs down then comboing into aerials, but that is no different for toon, you just need to be closer to the ground which means there's less chance of them DI'ing the bomb too far away from you to follow up. In any case, Toon's Bomb can combo no matter how they are thrown thanks to the lack of power.

Link’s Boomerang/bomb ATs like ‘bomb the rider’ and large aerial attack duration (51 frames) of Dair, and (20 Frames) Nair make Link’s bombs better to combo with, in my opinion. TLink attacks faster but with more ‘holes’ so it’s more a matter of opinion. TLink doesn’t need bombs to combo as much as Link.

TLs Usmash is much safer if you miss, stronger and can't be DI out of.

And there’s no DACUTilt only DACUSmash. Link’s Usmash has it’s pros but TLink’s is better.

came back and read the rest, seems there are a few things you left out or are mistaken at. ill pick em out later but one thing that i specifically remember, such as quickdraw can be charged

Quickdraw cuts the starting lag of arrows so it helps if the arrow’s charged too.

Where from, do you think?

'Don't know. Another smash site?

 

[KunaiX]

I agree with FoxIOD with a few exceptions:



I agree with one exception (0:50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IQM_aqR27U
Link can snipe.

lol Link can more than this. If your opponent is far away its worthy to charge an arrow. If your opponent jump, punish him, when he is landing. Your opponent cant shield / perfect shield during landing. The Arrow is very fast by fullcharge its not avoidable, when your opponent lands.

But this needs a lot of timing and training ^^

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Link’s Boomerang/bomb ATs like ‘bomb the rider’ and large aerial attack duration (51 frames) of Dair, and (20 Frames) Nair make Link’s bombs better to combo with, in my opinion. TLink attacks faster but with more ‘holes’ so it’s more a matter of opinion. TLink doesn’t need bombs to combo as much as Link.

I don't believe I could have said it better myself, good sir.

'Don't know. Another smash site?

Probably not. This is the first Smash Bros. site I've really ever done anything on : P

 

[Rizen]

lol Link can more than this. If your opponent is far away its worthy to charge an arrow. If your opponent jump, punish him, when he is landing. Your opponent cant shield / perfect shield during landing. The Arrow is very fast by fullcharge its not avoidable, when your opponent lands.

But this needs a lot of timing and training ^^

Good point. I meant charged arrows from a distance in general which has several uses. (Yeah, that's hard to time!)

Probably not. This is the first Smash Bros. site I've really ever done anything on : P

Oh. You have more confidence than most new people.
Like any chat, don't take things people say personally, there's weird politics which you'll soon learn, and some people are jerks but most people are cool. Read the rule threads that are stickied. 'Basic stuff. PM (Privite Message) me if you have any Qs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm sorry, ultra-pessimistic statement here. But it's gotta be said.

If you want to compete in tournies, use Meta Knight.

Read here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511

When I compared the points scored for tourney wins according to how Ankoku scores them, for a 13 month period, MK got 46.827 times as many points as any Links did.
There were 440-odd MKs who scored in the top 8 during this period.
There were only 18 Links.

I can't imagine its too much better for TL either.

You don't have to use MK, per say, but he is the best chance of winning a tournament having no bad MU's and only two non mirror 50/50's that are heavily debated.

 

[omegazeroINFI]

hm based off of skimming this, it appears my link playstyle is the toonlink style while my toonlink style is the link style

 

[Scabe]

^Lol

Toon Link's a better aerial character, while Link is the better on the ground.

 

[Wafflez]

I play Link instead of Toon Link because I'm not a raging homosexual.

Joking aside, it's been a wide-spread belief among Link mains that Toon Link is synonymous with "gay". The only real reason people main Link is because the fanboy within us tells us to- we're all huge fans of Link so we play him.

Really, there's no other reason to stick with a character who's been low to bottom tier ALL 3 GAMES. He's the only character never to have been mid-tier or higher.

 

[Dre89]

lol Link can more than this. If your opponent is far away its worthy to charge an arrow. If your opponent jump, punish him, when he is landing. Your opponent cant shield / perfect shield during landing. The Arrow is very fast by fullcharge its not avoidable, when your opponent lands.

But this needs a lot of timing and training ^^

Or the balloon chars could just multijump over to you and punish you...

I'm pretty sure this would be hard to hit, with airdodges etc. and the reward doesn't seem worth the risk.

I don't know much about Link, but to me if you were that far away it would just seem more logical to try and get as many projectiles on the screen as possible, rather than one grounded arrow that's unlikely to hit.

Again, I don't know much about Link, so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ndayday]

^Pretty much that...

you should never really be charging arrows fully, there are much better options most times, if not all the time.

 

[Scabe]

I've found that charging an arrow to be a great option for people who land away from you. Got that idea from Ano

 

[Rizen]

I don't know much about Link, but to me if you were that far away it would just seem more logical to try and get as many projectiles on the screen as possible, rather than one grounded arrow that's unlikely to hit.

Again, I don't know much about Link, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Landings have lag vulnerability; a well timed charged arrow is guaranteed to hit at this time. Off stage, Link can snipe recoveries on the same horizontal line as him, this forces the opponent to be hit or compromise their recovery by moving higher or dropping. Charged arrows have more knockback and damage and Link can hold them until the right moment from a safe distance. It has to be from a distance where other range attacks won't reach.
Cool MC Echer style avatar.

 

[Kitamerby]

Why you should use Link over Toon Link:

You're a masochist, so you like losing.

If this description fits you to a T, Link just might be the character for you!