Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!

[th3kuzinator]

Honestly, on this forum, one of the only places of productive, non flamatory discussion is the Debate Hall section. Even there, close minded people still exist. Thats the bueaty of the internet, anyone can say anything without fear of reprocussion. This being the main reason I stay away from xbox live and the cesspool of 11 year olds/racict condecending ****heads.

Just thinking about it, the smash64 community is pretty supportive and amiable (as a whole), which is the main reason I have stayed on these boards. Dont let it get to you soup, they have their own opinions and you have yours. However, in the future, when you want to introudce a topic for discussion, try to explicity state what you want discussed. Using language like "air-dodging is the dumbest thing ever," and "brawl's physics are just plain bad" just adds fuel to the fire.

 

[The Star King]

also, if some guy said "z-canceling is the dumbest idea ever" on smash64 he really doesn't understand smash64 well.

That's how you're perceived by the Brawl community. Don't you get it?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

thing is i do understand brawl, i play the game competively also.

but, if i think about it, as kuz said, and you said, i coulda been more formal with my post and looked at their retrospect first.

Airdodging is important in brawl because of how the game is setup.

i also read a couple of pages back, and really everyone is saying it's a defensive game, and airdoging, is more offensive then defensive, and other points i could go in detail too.

now i feel like i was narssisistic.

 

[The Star King]

I think you should've avoided opinionated statements like "air-dodging is the dumbest thing ever".

You aren't the only one to blame, though, the Brawl players were pretty bad too. I rolled my eyes when some guy said Brawl promotes intelligent play better than the other smash games. For slow thinkers, maybe. Or people afraid of being punished for taking risks.

 

[Sempiternity]

Well maybe you don't understand Brawl well?

???????????????

EDIT: ****, late. This is what happens when you open a page, go get your laundry, come back and respond.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

semp

physicists use mathematical tools to study the physical universe but a mathematical physicist is a physicist who focuses on finding mathematical tools to apply to physics itself

a cosmologist would use the tools a mathematical physicist implemented

and kuz

linear algebra is just basically math concerning matrices lol

that is the entire course basically

matrices are useful for solving equations with any n number of variables

as you will learn when you take it

it's a good course to know because it has many applications in both mathematics and the physical sciences

plus if ur doin some fun GRAPH THEORY THEN UR BASICALLY GONNA BE SPAMMING LINEAR ALGEBRA ALL OVER THE PLACE

 

[dandan]

you are completely disregarding fields, self values and vectors and much much more.

 

[ballin4life]

Matrices + vectors yo. And it's not that hard, plus there's some cool stuff like eigenvalues/eigenvectors/diagonalizing (really useful in differential equations).

At least in my linear algebra/multivariable calculus class, the hard part was that we were supposed to memorize every single proof from the book (some of which would show up on the tests). Yeah that was ridiculous.

edit: dandan - fields? more of a group theory topic right? and what do you mean by self values?

Also z canceling is the dumbest idea ever.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

*blows everything out of proportion*

but it made me laugh none the less ballin.

 

[Sempiternity]

i dun been told

I think.

Multivariable calc is hard... I don't like hypervolume.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Also z canceling is the dumbest idea ever.

You insensitive ****. How dare you spurt this blasphemy etc.

If you wanna take that position ballin, we should move it over to the DH. Lol that would be a funny argument.

 

[ballin4life]

it's been discussed before but z canceling should be automatic. it's just adding extra tech skill for no reason.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

dan i was just being really general l0lz

 

[th3kuzinator]

Idk about that. Learning to zcancel is an important tech that separates the average players from the pros. It really helps to punish people who are not focused/predicting correctly and it contributes to the list of techs that make the smash64 learning curve important. W/o zcanceling anyone could just pick up the game and become fairly good within a short amount of time.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

it's been discussed before but z canceling should be automatic. it's just adding extra tech skill for no reason.

I..almost agree with that. if this was a couple of years ago, i'd agree.

but i really have gotten used to z-canceling so it wouldn't feel right.

 

[ballin4life]

Idk about that. Learning to zcancel is an important tech that separates the average players from the pros. It really helps to punish people who are not focused/predicting correctly and it contributes to the list of techs that make the smash64 learning curve important. W/o zcanceling anyone could just pick up the game and become fairly good within a short amount of time.

That's not true at all. Learning how to z cancel doesn't automatically make you good.

Also if this were the case, then why not make the zcancel timing window smaller? Why not make it so that the window to z cancel is only like 3 frames? This would massively increase the amount of tech skill and practice needed to become good and would create a huge skill gap between noobs and pros. But it obviously wouldn't be good for the game in general.

It really just adds extra tech skill learning curve to the game for no reason.

 

[NovaSmash]

If z cancelling was automatic everyone in ED clan would be a pro. There are plenty of ppl who cant z cancel properly and that does seperate levels of players. Seriously i thought only a noob would say something like that.

 

[th3kuzinator]

That's not true at all. Learning how to z cancel doesn't automatically make you good.

Also if this were the case, then why not make the zcancel timing window smaller? Why not make it so that the window to z cancel is only like 3 frames? This would massively increase the amount of tech skill and practice needed to become good and would create a huge skill gap between noobs and pros. But it obviously wouldn't be good for the game in general.

It really just adds extra tech skill learning curve to the game for no reason.

In my standards, when I play an opponent who knows how to zcancel, I a least put him a different category than playing someone who does not. I would argue that this category could be labeled good. IMO, if you can tech and zcancel you are a "good" player.

The timing window needs to be such that it

• is not too small so that it dissuades anyone, except the extremely hardcore, from mastering it.
• not too large/non existent that anyone and everyone can pick up competitive smash with minimal effort.

However, I feel that the current timing window is spot on in this aspect. A little trouble getting used to at first, but very beneficial in the long run. Also, at high levels of play, a missed zcancel is the perfect opportunity for an opponent to get a free approach. I have seen a few missed ones by malva where he gets punished pretty badly.

 

[Sempiternity]

I think z-cancelling keeps the game from getting stale. Combos are already ridiculous in this game, and most of them depend on a z-cancel here and there. If you eliminated z-cancelling, then, in theory, these combos could be performed again and again consistently, no matter the difficulty. Maybe not 100%, but the success rate goes way up without having to worry about another variable that directly influences the outcome of a combo.

It's also a tool to speed up gameplay. Would you agree that being fast in this game definitely helps improve your chances at being good? I think somebody once commented on an Isai video explaining why he was so exciting to watch; he manages to input so many more moves than the next guy. And as an added bonus, he connects with most of them. In general, he is so much faster than the rest of us, and also efficient.

Eliminating z-cancelling would mean that anybody could be this fast without years of practice. It drastically slashes the learning curve that really creates player levels, and is actually sort of a buffer to slow down a player's progression. Based on most of our current styles of play, I think we can all agree that there is definite room for improvement. This improvement comes, in one way, from how well you are able to input buttons. The game actually allows you to improve, it's your job to practice and get better.

With Brawl, it feels like there's a certain threshold, where technical game skill matters no more, and it's more about mindgames and mental play. I believe a game should always give the player the ability to improve from a technical standpoint. Nobody can play on par with a TAS'd character, but we can continue to strive to achieve that. TAS'd SSB64 and Melee matches are incredible, whereas do you think Brawl would be? The ability to input more attacks depending on how well you've mastered the game is what justifies z-cancelling.

And before anybody misses the point, moving faster and inputting more button actions does not necessarily make you good.

I hate to make such an outlandish comparison, but the first thought that came to mind was that one Street Fighter match (you know the one) with all those parries. What if you only had to press one button to parry every hit of that attack? Not much skill, and not very interesting/entertaining/exciting. Z-cancelling is like that; it's another component to the game that requires skill to utilize correctly. Take that away, and you take away some skill needed to play the game. This is why I find Melee so amazing, watching high level players, and Brawl just sort of MEH when watching "high-level" players. You can tell who has more command of the game based on how they move. And, face it, z-cancelling is part of movement.

 

[ballin4life]

What's wrong with having "anyone and everyone" be able to pick up competitive smash?

Why not get rid of the simple B/upB/downB specials and replace it with quarter circles, half circles and all that like in street fighter? All of this would add more tech skill to the game and create a higher learning curve. But it doesn't add anything to the game for people that are good and simply makes it harder to get new people to play the game.

People only like having the crutch of zcanceling (or tech skill in general) because it allows them to beat up on noobs and think that they are good.

Overall z canceling doesn't add anything to the game (compared to automatic z canceling) except for some additional unnecessary tech skill practice.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I am not saying we need more techskill.

I am saying that adding automatic z canceling to smash would result in a game where there is a smaller spectrum of skill levels.

Why would I not want anyone to pick up competitive smash instantly? Because I myself spent a lot of time practicing and perfected techniques and enjoy the sense of accomplishment when I master/execute something new. W/o this difficulty, although Smash would amuse me at first, I would soon realise that getting to my skill level essentially means nothing because others could also attain this level fairly quickly and it did not help me stand out.

Also smash64 does not have THAT many more advanced techniques after tech, zcancel, DI, sh etc. Although there are obviously character specific techs, there is an overall tech skill cap at a certain point, where the only way to move improve is through the development of mindgames. Granted, no one may be at that level yet, but having this specific technique as another level to master helps increases the capacity of improvement and thus accomplishment.

Also, though I am a fairly high level smasher, I miss zcancels from time to time just as everyone else. As I stated previously, these are golden opportunities for your opponent to get a free approach. This makes it so you always have to focus on your game because if you slip up and miss a cancel, you're in trouble.

 

[ballin4life]

I think z-cancelling keeps the game from getting stale. Combos are already ridiculous in this game, and most of them depend on a z-cancel here and there. If you eliminated z-cancelling, then, in theory, these combos could be performed again and again consistently, no matter the difficulty. Maybe not 100%, but the success rate goes way up without having to worry about another variable that directly influences the outcome of a combo.

Uh ... any good player will z cancel successfully 95+% of the time. So those combos are already pretty much automatic. And what's wrong with combo success rate going up?

It's also a tool to speed up gameplay. Would you agree that being fast in this game definitely helps improve your chances at being good? I think somebody once commented on an Isai video explaining why he was so exciting to watch; he manages to input so many more moves than the next guy. And as an added bonus, he connects with most of them. In general, he is so much faster than the rest of us, and also efficient.

Isai doesn't play faster than everyone else, he plays better. I'm not sure what that has to do with z cancels.

Z cancels don't speed up gameplay compared to automatic z cancels. My whole point is that there is no difference between needing to z cancel and having automatic z cancels for good players, but it makes the game easier to get into for newer players.

NOTE THAT I AM NOT ARGUING FOR HAVING THE "NO Z CANCEL" LAG AT THE END OF EVERY AERIAL MOVE. I WANT Z CANCELS TO BE AUTOMATIC.

Eliminating z-cancelling would mean that anybody could be this fast without years of practice. It drastically slashes the learning curve that really creates player levels, and is actually sort of a buffer to slow down a player's progression. Based on most of our current styles of play, I think we can all agree that there is definite room for improvement. This improvement comes, in one way, from how well you are able to input buttons. The game actually allows you to improve, it's your job to practice and get better.

Why do you want people to need years of practice to start playing the game? What makes smash fun is playing against the opponent, not practicing tech skill. If I wanted to practice tech skill only I'd take up juggling.

Honestly, people learn how to z cancel with <1 week of practice usually. Z cancels are not an obstacle to getting better. But why force someone to put in that z canceling practice when the game will be exactly the same without z cancels? Z cancels don't add anything to the game besides extra tech skill.

With Brawl, it feels like there's a certain threshold, where technical game skill matters no more, and it's more about mindgames and mental play. I believe a game should always give the player the ability to improve from a technical standpoint. Nobody can play on par with a TAS'd character, but we can continue to strive to achieve that. TAS'd SSB64 and Melee matches are incredible, whereas do you think Brawl would be? The ability to input more attacks depending on how well you've mastered the game is what justifies z-cancelling.

And before anybody misses the point, moving faster and inputting more button actions does not necessarily make you good.

I hate to make such an outlandish comparison, but the first thought that came to mind was that one Street Fighter match (you know the one) with all those parries. What if you only had to press one button to parry every hit of that attack? Not much skill, and not very interesting/entertaining/exciting. Z-cancelling is like that; it's another component to the game that requires skill to utilize correctly. Take that away, and you take away some skill needed to play the game. This is why I find Melee so amazing, watching high level players, and Brawl just sort of MEH when watching "high-level" players. You can tell who has more command of the game based on how they move. And, face it, z-cancelling is part of movement.

The technical aspect of the game is boring. Smash is about playing against your opponent, and the technical aspect is just a barrier between the battle between you and your opponent. It might be amazing to watch someone with crazy finger skill, but that doesn't make the game better for the players.

Taking away z canceling takes away some skill, but it's not an interesting skill. If all you want is a game that requires skill and years of practice, then make z cancels have a 2 frame window. That way you really will have to practice for years to be able to z cancel everything perfectly.

 

[Daedatheus]

Math has always been really easy for me, but the ease at which you understand math is mostly inherited genetically. Math is a good testament to how logical of an individual you are.

For some reason I read the beginning of your post as "Melee has always been really easy for me" haha. But as for what I actually think of the post?

It's such pseudo-science BS I don't even know where to start.

 

[Sempiternity]

To each his own, I guess. To me, if a game is harder, I find it more rewarding to get good at it. Z-cancelling makes the game **** hard compared to Brawl (Melee even more so). I just don't like the idea of anybody being able to pick up a game that I've been playing for a while, and be able to compete with me.

Sure, beating up noobs is gonna come with that, but there's your definition of a learning curve.

Brawl was fun at first, but I quickly lost interest because I didn't feel as good when I got better and felt that I had maxed out the game's tech potential.

And making the game like street fighter isn't a good argument, because the game's appeal (at least to me) is that it IS a fighter, and isn't like every other 2D fighter out there.

I guess I'm just a masochist who enjoys hard games. Melee makes me die inside every time I play because of the difficulty. My friend's the same way. If z-cancelling didn't exist, I wouldn't find much of a challenge in this game and it would be... dare I say it? EASY

 

[felipe_9595]

If z cancelling was automatic everyone in ED clan would be a pro. There are plenty of ppl who cant z cancel properly and that does seperate levels of players. Seriously i thought only a noob would say something like that.

Mmmm Nova, i am an ed........ eeeem, what number of times do you have won me, 1 ?????? On kirby dittos. ON SAFRON ?????

Dont talk about me clan like trash. If you can won me , ok, but until that happens please shut up, please?

EDIT: And, yeah, makes a barrier because you missed like 10 cancels on that match.

 

[Sempiternity]

And what kuz said, I don't give two ****s about new players getting into the game if you're going to dumb it down and make it easier. Call me selfish, but I wish games these days were like the old NES days where every game was impossible.

Gaming's gone soft. That's all there is to it. Rarely do we get obscenely hard games anymore because they're too worried about catering to the newbie/casual crowd to make big bucks.

Case in point: Brawl.

Anybody played Etrian Odyssey? Okay, now that's a new-school game that's insanely hard. Why? Because it was a throwback to the old-school. And I think IGN's study of it showed that 2/10 people enjoyed it. That, and its sequels, have been my favorite games of the past decade.

People have gone soft!

I like a challenge. Z-cancelling makes the game challenging. Gonna leave this point vague and ambiguous because everything that needs to be said has been said.

 

[ballin4life]

I am not saying we need more techskill.

I am saying that removing z canceling from smash would result in a game where there is a smaller spectrum of skill levels.

Why would I not want anyone to pick up competitive smash instantly? Because I myself spent a lot of time practicing and perfected techniques and enjoy the sense of accomplishment when I master/execute something new. W/o this difficulty, although Smash would amuse me at first, I would soon realism that getting to my skill level essentially means nothing because others could also attain this level fairly quickly and it did not help me stand out.

No, because you would never have had to spend hours practicing z cancels if they were never in the game in the first place. You could have started practicing combos, mindgames, strategy, things that are more interesting and fun. You would get to higher skill levels more quickly because that technical barrier would be reduced.

The spectrum of skill levels would hardly be changed by removing z cancels, because every good player already z cancels 95+% of the time.

Also if having a spectrum of skill levels is always a good thing, then why not increase tech skill and make z cancels have a 2 frame window? Surely this would increase the spectrum of skill levels. But it would do so for the wrong reasons.

Also smash64 does not have THAT many more advanced techniques after tech, zcancel, DI, sh etc. Although there are obviously character specific techs, there is an overall tech skill cap at a certain point, where the only way to move improve is through the development of mindgames. Granted, no one may be at that level yet, but having this specific technique as another level to master helps increases the capacity of improvement and thus accomplishment.

Also, though I am a fairly high level smasher, I miss zcancels from time to time just as everyone else. As I stated previously, these are golden opportunities for your opponent to get a free approach. This makes it so you always have to focus on your game because if you slip up and miss a cancel, you're in trouble.

I think it's a pretty cheap victory if you win due to your opponent missing z cancels. I'd much rather win because I outwitted my opponent.

Again, if all that matters is having another thing to master, then why not give extra lag to ground moves unless you press Z at the right time?

Also here's a good article on a similar subject in street fighter:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/street-fighter-hd-remix-design-overview.html

 

[asianaussie]

Z-cancelling does jack-all to the game's difficulty, it's just a gimmicky advantage that you learn about as soon as you try to move into competitive smash, but marks a key barrier between casual and competitive.

You can master it in a couple days and make it unconscious in a month of regular play. All it does is set an arbitrary boundary. To me it's the same as EV'ing pokemon properly or building a good deck of TCG cards: it's the first step towards playing the game competitively as opposed to playing it casually with friends. I don't want people who can't even take this small step to be my opponent in a competitive game.

Don't start debates outside the DH please :|

 

[Sempiternity]

Why don't you email Sakurai and asked why he included the option for cancelling aerials?

EDIT: The argument that good players will always z-cancel is a bad assumption. You may land them 95% of the time, but when you don't, you obviously *laced with sarcasm* haven't practiced them enough for them to be second nature, adding another element to what makes a player "good". Taking advantage of missed cancels is part of the game, and is the same as if a player accidentally commits suicide or some other mistake.

 

[th3kuzinator]

No, because you would never have had to spend hours practicing z cancels if they were never in the game in the first place. You could have started practicing combos, mindgames, strategy, things that are more interesting and fun. You would get to higher skill levels more quickly because that technical barrier would be reduced.

Ok so if you are under the mindset where you do not need to practice games to get good at them, why dont we just put all the items on and make the damage modifier 200%? While we are at it, we can make it so that every move takes 10 seconds to execute but they all do 999% damage. I mean then we can practice our mindgames and strategy all we want without the fear of being impeded by that silly thing called technical skill. *shivers*

The spectrum of skill levels would hardly be changed by removing z cancels, because every good player already z cancels 95+% of the time.

Irrelevant, because I just stated twice that I, as well as other good smash players, do miss zcancels from time to time and this is a legitimate opportunity for the opponent. Just because we dont miss them often does not make them auto-cancelable.

Also if having a spectrum of skill levels is always a good thing, then why not increase tech skill and make z cancels have a 2 frame window? Surely this would increase the spectrum of skill levels. But it would do so for the wrong reasons.

...I already answered this question before...

The timing window needs to be such that it

• is not too small so that it dissuades anyone, except the extremely hardcore, from mastering it.
• not too large/non existent that anyone and everyone can pick up competitive smash with minimal effort.

I think it's a pretty cheap victory if you win due to your opponent missing z cancels. I'd much rather win because I outwitted my opponent.

.....is this a serious point? My whole argument is based on the fact that if you miss a zcancel, you are going to get punished, and your defending argument is that if you punish someone for missing a zcancel, its pretty cheap... -_-

Again, if all that matters is having another thing to master, then why not give extra lag to ground moves unless you press Z at the right time?

Sure. Why Not. If this would have been added when the game first came out back in 1999, I would have treated it like any other advanced tech --> practiced it and got it down. This would not have seemed unreasonable.


Edit: Sorry cheeseball, I had started posting before your post came in, I will stop it here.

Lol at this actually getting pretty heated.

 

[asianaussie]

why apologise?

not like i can do anything about it lol

losing due to missing a z-cancel is fairer than losing because of, say, a tornado or dreamland's wind.

 

[felipe_9595]

why apologise?

not like i can do anything about it lol

losing due to missing a z-cancel is fairer than losing because of, say, a tornado or dreamland's wind.

mmm Dreamland wind is not unfair, is like when you die because your shield is hitted and you wanna do a shiueld grab but you fail of the platform and you do an aerial,

 

[NovaSmash]

*unsubscribes to ballin4life*

 

[ballin4life]

Ok so if you are under the mindset where you do not need to practice games to get good at them, why dont we just put all the items on and make the damage modifier 200%? While we are at it, we can make it so that every move takes 10 seconds to execute but they all do 999% damage. I mean then we can practice our mindgames and strategy all we want without the fear of being impeded by that silly thing called technical skill. *shivers*

Hehehe you're talking to the wrong person about items on 200% damage

Changing the game so that every move takes 10 seconds to execute and does 999 damage would reduce the amount of strategy. Eliminating z cancels would not reduce the amount of strategy.

Irrelevant, because I just stated twice that I, as well as other good smash players, do miss zcancels from time to time and this is a legitimate opportunity for the opponent. Just because we dont miss them often does not make them auto-cancelable.



...I already answered this question before...

Your "answer" contains tons of weasel words. What defines the "extremely hardcore"? Why can't I say that the current ~20 frame window (or whatever it is) is only mastered by the extremely hardcore?

I also want to point out that not having z cancels does not mean that everyone would be able to come into the game and be as good as you or me or anyone else. They would have to practice combos, mindgames, etc. These are things that are actually interesting, unlike learning to always press z when you hit the ground.

.....is this a serious point? My whole argument is based on the fact that if you miss a zcancel, you are going to get punished, and your defending argument is that if you punish someone for missing a zcancel, its pretty cheap... -_-

I meant cheap in the sense of "not very valuable". If I win due to a missed z cancel, then I haven't really shown any skill. I just got lucky that my opponent, through no input of my own, happened to mess up. On the other hand, if my spacing/mindgames/baiting put him into a situation where I can hit him, then that reflects my own skill.

Sure. Why Not. If this would have been added when the game first came out back in 1999, I would have treated it like any other advanced tech --> practiced it and got it down. This would not have seemed unreasonable.

Sure, but the game is better because it doesn't force you to practice that. Making you practice pressing z after doing ground moves adds nothing to the strategy of the game.

 

[Sempiternity]

bro, i think you're just lazy

got the ol' carpal tunnel from pressin' that z-button so many times, maybe

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Changing the game so that every move takes 10 seconds to execute and does 999 damage would reduce the amount of strategy. Eliminating z cancels would not reduce the amount of strategy.

Does not removing Z/L/R Cancel remove certain obscure combos thus indirectly reducing strategy???

 

[th3kuzinator]

Dragoon, you missed the beginning of the argument.

He wants to have aerial moves auto cancel instead of actually having to press the z button which would not mess up combos. However I disagree that removing the need to z cancel would decrease the amount of strategy. At certain instances, I do not do certain moves in fear that I will miss a zcancel and thus be punished.

For some reason, I miss fox's ff dair a lot. Because of this, I usually dont ff his dair that much and stick to short hops or just ff fair/bair. Zcanceling helps develop a personal strategy.

 

[ballin4life]

Dragoon, you missed the beginning of the argument.

He wants to have aerial moves auto cancel instead of actually having to press the z button which would not mess up combos. However I disagree that removing the need to z cancel would decrease the amount of strategy. At certain instances, I do not do certain moves in fear that I will miss a zcancel and thus be punished.

For some reason, I miss fox's ff dair a lot. Because of this, I usually dont ff his dair that much and stick to short hops or just ff fair/bair. Zcanceling helps develop a personal strategy.

That's an example of z cancels reducing the number of viable strategies.

Also, like you seem to be telling the noobs to do ... maybe you need to go practice your z cancels for 2 weeks

 

[Surri-Sama]

Links Uair is the only cancel i find "harder" then any others...not sure why but.

 

[th3kuzinator]

even really good players have moves they sometimes mess up or zcancels they miss.

I remember a post from you earlier ballin where you state you have trouble zcanceling marios sh dair uair which I have no problem with. Better get on that

Also, moves like links dair are tricky to time because of knowing whether to zcancel for the regular animation/shield stun/sword bounce etc.

Dont make me bring out that video where you missed a simple fox fair zcancel at the end of a combo.