Solution to stalling..

[Sajun88]

There are a few posts going on discussing stalling in tournaments. i.e. (insert fast character here) vs. (insert slow character here) on (insert huge stage here).

I decided to make a new thread so it'd get seen, if I just made a post in those 50+ page threads there's no point.

So basically why doesn't someone just suggest that we don't play timed matches in tournaments? I don't get it, I've watched countless vids on youtube of melee and brawl tournaments and they always have the clock running during a stock match. Of course that would promote stalling. Like the posts earlier mentioned all you'd need to do is get a % lead. There's all this discussion about counterpicking characters or stages, and the simpler way to fix this problem would be to play 3,4 or 5 stock (not sure what is tournament standard) with no time limit. Hey if some kid playing Sonic spends 8 minutes on a timeless match running away from his opponent then you know who to disqualify...

Am I wrong here?

 

[illinialex24]

There are a few posts going on discussing stalling in tournaments. i.e. (insert fast character here) vs. (insert slow character here) on (insert huge stage here).

I decided to make a new thread so it'd get seen, if I just made a post in those 50+ page threads there's no point.

So basically why doesn't someone just suggest that we don't play timed matches in tournaments? I don't get it, I've watched countless vids on youtube of melee and brawl tournaments and they always have the clock running during a stock match. Of course that would promote stalling. Like the posts earlier mentioned all you'd need to do is get a % lead. There's all this discussion about counterpicking characters or stages, and the simpler way to fix this problem would be to play 3,4 or 5 stock (not sure what is tournament standard) with no time limit. Hey if some kid playing Sonic spends 8 minutes on a timeless match running away from his opponent then you know who to disqualify...

Am I wrong here?

Yes you are very wrong here. Tournaments go by schedules. Without a hard cap amount of time, the tournament could go on for way too long. It also favors some characters drastically.

 

[ftl]

you are wrong.

What if neither character wants to approach?

Say I have a projectile, so I want to stay on the flat area of Corneria. You have a wall infinite, so you want to stay on the fin.

The match lasts a really long time, because both people want to fight in some particular area of the stage. Neither player is stalling - one wants to fight here, one wants to fight there.

Not okay. And there are PLENTY of analogous situations. MK wants to fight on the edge, Falco wants to fight in the middle of the stage. Or just both characters prefer being approached rather than approaching, and neither can force the approach.

 

[Falconv1.0]

You realize without timers we have even WORSE camping, and longer matches.

No one thinks things out for **** lately seriously guys what the ****.

 

[illinialex24]

you are wrong.

What if neither character wants to approach?

Say I have a projectile, so I want to stay on the flat area of Corneria. You have a wall infinite, so you want to stay on the fin.

The match lasts a really long time, because both people want to fight in some particular area of the stage. Neither player is stalling - one wants to fight here, one wants to fight there.

Not okay. And there are PLENTY of analogous situations. MK wants to fight on the edge, Falco wants to fight in the middle of the stage. Or just both characters prefer being approached rather than approaching, and neither can force the approach.

Exactly, imagine Jungle Japes with G&W. God that would be a pain. If G&W is losing, he cannot camp in the middle of the stage making it unable to kill him until a few 100 percent, like 300 or something ridiculous. However, if there is no time limit, he can wait there all he wants until someone decides to come even if he is losing. However, with a time limit, he has to come to the edge or closer to it and can die much much earlier, like 120% with a mediocre hit.

 

[DKKountry]

Usually when you're going to suggest that an entire competetive community changes the rules for the tournaments they hold you should take more than the time it takes to write it to think it out.

For your own good, think things through before you make a new thread, or you'll get flamed. Peace.

 

[Tokyoinamerica]

Timing is just to keep the games rolling faster there not going to have 2 hour long matches just to prevent stalling. Stalling is just apart of the game its a part of a lot of games.

There is really no one to stop it.

 

[Denzi]

You're wrong, because I have an even better way to prevent stalling: All matches take place on a 4-block wide custom stage. I'd like to see you try to stall there.
sarcasm is fun!

 

[illinialex24]

You're wrong, because I have an even bettedr way to prevent stalling: All matches take place on a 4-block wide custom stage. I'd like to see you try to stall there.

Spoiler

sarcasm is fun!

Yeah, ridiculous ideas to stop stalling are fairly ridiculous.

God this idea is complete crap

 

[MyCurse4Life]

U work hard on this but im sorry to say that your wrong.

 

[Tokyoinamerica]

You're wrong, because I have an even bettedr way to prevent stalling: All matches take place on a 4-block wide custom stage. I'd like to see you try to stall there.
sarcasm is fun!

Yes Yes Yes!

 

[Steel_Samurai]

Then it would be pointless to camp with a percent lead.
(most)Projectiles can't kill, so even if you don't have one, there is no factor making you approach

 

[Eyada]

Edit: If a Moderator sees this, please delete this post. It is no longer relevant.

 

[OmegaXF]

You realize without timers we have even WORSE camping, and longer matches.

No one thinks things out for **** lately seriously guys what the ****.

That post is absolute GREATNESS!!

 

[Vulcan55]

No one thinks things out for **** lately seriously guys what the ****.

quoted for truthiness.

 

[Sajun88]

Well to clear some things up:

I've never been to a tournament, so never encountered someone who would want to stall the match as long as they could just to win. Every person I've ever played wanted to win the match in as little time as possible, which you would think would be a universal idea, but oh well.

I could see a match with no time limit potentially lasting longer, that's true. Other than the 4 block stage idea there isn't really a solution to the whole stalling thing it seems.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well to clear some things up:

I've never been to a tournament, so never encountered someone who would want to stall the match as long as they could just to win. Every person I've ever played wanted to win the match in as little time as possible, which you would think would be a universal idea, but oh well.

I could see a match with no time limit potentially lasting longer, that's true. Other than the 4 block stage idea there isn't really a solution to the whole stalling thing it seems.

"Winning" is the only universal idea in a tournament setting.

If approaching hampers your chances of winning, then a player has no incentive to approach without a time limit. You have to at least be in the lead to justify doing this with the time limit on.

 

[Sajun88]

Well that's true but to a point.

For example my best friend and I have been playing since the days of 64. I never liked to brag but in this case I'll just say that we are good lol. The thing is I've recorded many matches where I was doing really good and about to win when he pulled some random crap on me and one. Most of these were around the time when I'm at say 30% damage and he's 80% damage. If he had the mindset that he shouldn't advance towards the opponent when he's higher in % then he would't win as much as he does. Maybe it's because he plays Ganondorf, and has been since Melee came out, and maybe it's because Ganondorf can safely advance with high damage, but I'm not sure. The times he pulls a sick win on me are the times that I was clearly winning, those times that the average player would choose to camp when they are winning on %.

Oh and no matter what I say in my posts, it doesn't warrent flaming, only makes the one flaming look stupid heh. ^_^ (not directed at above poster)

 

[Sajun88]

Maybe the term "if you don't try you'll never know" applies to this. If my friend never tried to advance towards me when he was clearly losing he probably would never have won all those matches that he did.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well that's true but to a point.

For example my best friend and I have been playing since the days of 64. I never liked to brag but in this case I'll just say that we are good lol. The thing is I've recorded many matches where I was doing really good and about to win when he pulled some random crap on me and one. Most of these were around the time when I'm at say 30% damage and he's 80% damage. If he had the mindset that he shouldn't advance towards the opponent when he's higher in % then he would't win as much as he does. Maybe it's because he plays Ganondorf, and has been since Melee came out, and maybe it's because Ganondorf can safely advance with high damage, but I'm not sure. The times he pulls a sick win on me are the times that I was clearly winning, those times that the average player would choose to camp when they are winning on %.

Oh and no matter what I say in my posts, it doesn't warrent flaming, only makes the one flaming look stupid heh. ^_^ (not directed at above poster)

Maybe -you- should try camping while you're winning and see what happens.

When you're at a high percentage, you're FORCED to approach, because time will run out otherwise, and tournament matches award the win to the player with a lower percentage (that is, if they have the same amount of stocks). The fact that your friend pulled out a win while he was losing says absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of camping, and if you're not good at camping and you lost, it has little bearing on the people that are decent at it, let alone great at it.

 

[CrAzYdRuNk]

Thing is, if we try this then tournaments will be screwed over. Matches will take an obscenely long time because players feel like they can wait for the opponent to come without any actual consequences. With a timer, a player feels like he has to force the offensive otherwise he loses.

Then again, with the timer one player can feel like he doesn't need to push because the other player comes to him. Which is what we have going on now. Personally, I think that while planking and excessve stalling are stupid, its part of the game. Defense is always part of any sort of fighting game, and Brawl just has more than most others.

But then it becomes a situation where so much defensive play is used, that everyone just sits around. What can you do? There really isn't an obvious solution, because forcing a person to go on offence is dumb. A players strategy he uses to win is interupted because others can't beat it.

 

[Sajun88]

Thing is, if we try this then tournaments will be screwed over. Matches will take an obscenely long time because players feel like they can wait for the opponent to come without any actual consequences. With a timer, a player feels like he has to force the offensive otherwise he loses.

Yeah I got the point of that in the earlier responses, I can see now how not having a timer in tournaments would mess it up really bad. I mean Brawl isn't Street Fighter, there is no clear way to avoid camping in a game like this, with levels as detailed and diverse as Smash is known for. I was just suggesting a solution to it, but like I said I've never been to a Brawl tournament before so wasn't sure how it would turn out. I was suggesting that solution while assuming that the average person would play like my friend and I do.

We should both just go to a tournament heh, could prove that camping isn't necessary to win when you've got the % lead. ^^

Now that I think about it, what is the actual time on timed stock matches in tournaments?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

We should both just go to a tournament heh, could prove that camping isn't necessary to win when you've got the % lead. ^^

No one ever said that camping is necessary to win.

It just helps A WHOLE LOT.

You should still come and see what we mean.

 

[ph00tbag]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that in the case of a run-out clock, the result of the Sudden Death should be the basis for the result. Yes, Sudden Death is ********, and its result rarely reflects the true winner of the match, but that's exactly the beauty of the idea: no one will want to play Sudden Death, thus discouraging stalling when someone has a percent advantage.

This is only a partial solution, though, because someone with a stock advantage will still win once time runs out, thus still encouraging stalling for someone who's up by a stock.

 

[Yuna]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that in the case of a run-out clock, the result of the Sudden Death should be the basis for the result. Yes, Sudden Death is ********, and its result rarely reflects the true winner of the match, but that's exactly the beauty of the idea: no one will want to play Sudden Death, thus discouraging stalling when someone has a percent advantage.

So the solution to something annoying is to implement something "********"?

This is only a partial solution, though, because someone with a stock advantage will still win once time runs out, thus still encouraging stalling for someone who's up by a stock.[/quote]

 

[Onachi]

The problem with finding a solution to stalling, as we all know, is there is no finite rule set that can successfully address all the different stalling situations that might turn up during tournament play. The way I would approach this, though, would just be to announce at the beginning of the tournament that stalling excessively is banned. If someone is accused of stalling, the tournament host and several other peers will view the match until its culmination; if he doesn't stall, let it be. If he does, disqualify him. Though it does rely somewhat on the subjectivity of the tournament host and other peers, it seems safe to say that everyone has a good sense of what is fair.

Besides, who wants to go to a tournament to stall for 8 minute intervals? That's no fun at all -.-

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Besides, who wants to go to a tournament to stall for 8 minute intervals? That's no fun at all -.-

Spending a few hundred dollars I made as a result of winning is pretty fun, though.

 

[illinialex24]

Spending a few hundred dollars I made as a result of winning is pretty fun, though.

Exactly and so is improving name recognition for your character. Plus, playing most of these matches as Jigglypuff aren't very fun normally.

 

[K 2]

I love these posts where someone thinks they have a clever solution to stalling, to MK, or to some random tactic, only to get shot down. They're solutions, if implemented, would actually make the problem worse, in many cases...

lolz ^_^

 

[illinialex24]

I love these posts where someone thinks they have a clever solution to stalling, to MK, or to some random tactic, only to get shot down. They're solutions, if implemented, would actually make the problem worse, in many cases...

lolz ^_^

Yeah they truly would. I hope no one says we should play at Hyrule Temple.....

 

[ph00tbag]

So the solution to something annoying is to implement something "********"?

This is only a partial solution, though, because someone with a stock advantage will still win once time runs out, thus still encouraging stalling for someone who's up by a stock.

Since when was Yuna replaced with a parrot?

But yes. Yes to all you said. I just think Sudden Death is a better alternative to having to put up with someone who hits you once then just camps the ledge and makes you work twice as hard just to break even. It makes you actually work for your right to stall.

 

[illinialex24]

Since when was Yuna replaced with a parrot?

But yes. Yes to all you said. I just think Sudden Death is a better alternative to having to put up with someone who hits you once then just camps the ledge and makes you work twice as hard just to break even. It makes you actually work for your right to stall.

Not really because if you force sudden death, then someone who was completely ****** a stock but in a campy game will have a 50-50 chance of losing. Like someone at 120% and another at 10%, with no per say camping just projectile spamming.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Not really because if you force sudden death, then someone who was completely ****** a stock but in a campy game will have a 50-50 chance of losing. Like someone at 120% and another at 10%, with no per say camping just projectile spamming.

That is, unless you count the sudden death match itself as an element of gameplay.

 

[Wylde]

We are good

He mains ganondorf

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

 

[ftl]

That is, unless you count the sudden death match itself as an element of gameplay.

In a match between two closely-matched players, even the worse player stands a reasonable chance of getting the first hit in in a sudden death.

Over the course of a 3-stock match, the person who gets advantage over that time is pretty clearly the better player. Over the course of a 1-hit sudden death, that's not so clear.

 

[CJTHeroofTime]

But guys, if we make Hyrule Temple legal, than Sudden Death is no longer an issue, because the map is big enough for the better player to DI and live when the worse player gets the first hit, allowing him to come back and kill the worse player. That would solve all of our problems with stalling. Better yet, why don't we just make 300% mode on Hyrule Temple the new tournament rules?

lololololol

 

[ph00tbag]

Not really because if you force sudden death, then someone who was completely ****** a stock but in a campy game will have a 50-50 chance of losing. Like someone at 120% and another at 10%, with no per say camping just projectile spamming.

It's true enough that someone with 120% against someone with 10% will have good cause to camp. That's a good point against the notion of Sudden Death.

But then, is that solution any better than someone getting the first hit on the last stock of a campy match, with very little time left, then just camping out the end of it, and winning because they happened to get the first hit?

 

[Sajun88]

I really do need to play someone who camps alot, to get an idea of how they pull it off.

I play D3 mostly and he's hella slow, but I still can't imagine a situation where I wouldn't be able to get close to a player, even someone like Sonic or Fox, you can head someone off eventually. Even if it took me a good 30 seconds to catch up to them I guess it wouldn't really matter. They are putting all their effort into staying away from me, while I'm putting my effort towards getting close and hitting them, eventually I'll succeed. Now that I think about it.. Jigglypuff could give probably keep away from D3 better than anyone else heh.

Anyways like someone above said, what's the point of going to a tournament just to waste 8 minutes or so of your life running away from the other player. The whole point is to fight the other player and win right? If you say that you'll do everything you can to win (even stalling), well then there are other games to play that don't involve fighting other players.

But oh well.

 

[Sajun88]

Oh and I just remembered that I have gone up against someone who tried to camp before. My friend's brother plays a really mean MK, very hard to beat him. A few weeks back there were a few matches we played (and when we get together we play for hours so..) where he tried to stall a bit by camping. The match didn't last anywhere near 8 minutes, and while he successfully avoided me for about 2 minutes it didn't do him any good, and I can't see the point of doing it unless your opponent is completely incapable of doing anything besides AAA combos.

A monkey could catch a camping MK.

 

[The_Prince]

But guys, if we make Hyrule Temple legal, than Sudden Death is no longer an issue, because the map is big enough for the better player to DI and live when the worse player gets the first hit, allowing him to come back and kill the worse player. That would solve all of our problems with stalling. Better yet, why don't we just make 300% mode on Hyrule Temple the new tournament rules?

that kind of really ruins the whole concept of what is known as "skill".
it someone kind of really lacking it? *cough*herooftime*coughcough*