Something I rarely see exploited in tournaments...

[S_B]

EDIT: (To clarify, I'm only talking SPECIFICALLY about characters with an Up+B that is capable of rising past the ledge WITHOUT snapping to it! This is not referencing characters who have recoveries that snap to the ledge at any height!)

I watch and study tournaments regularly, and I've noticed something that could probably more frequently be exploited...

Recoveries to the ledge in SSB4 have a sweet spot that is quite literally DANGEROUS to miss. This has always been true for SSB games, but SSB4's ledge snap (barring the one frame of actual snap) is one of the safest we've seen.

The thing about that, however, is that it encourages certain characters to fall lower than usual in an effort to ensure that their ledge snap happens. For example, if Luigi uses his Up+B when the ledge is too close above him, he'll miss it entirely and be open for a free smash attack. The same is true of Ryu and a number of other characters.

In tournaments, I nearly always see players ensuring that they fall to the full length of their Up+Bs before using them to return to the ledge.

But that's the thing: this behavior is entirely predictable and likely punishable, yet I rarely see anyone attempting to punish it.

Is this due to players simply not wanting to risk getting stage spiked themselves, or is there something else going on here I'm not aware of?

It just seems like, if you know precisely where your opponent is going to fall to before using their Up+B, you could very likely intercept them before they have the chance...

 

[Myles5000]

A big reason that people don't go for this is that most characters don't have a way to guarantee a kill if they try to intercept a recovering opponent. If they were to go offstage and b-air, it's all well and good unless the opponent techs, which would likely mean death for the assailant. Something I would like to see more of is fast falled spikes to intercept low recoveries.

A notable example would be Lucas' b-air, which you can actually just run off and use, without pivoting, against an opponent recovering low against the stage. Aside from that, I wouldn't feel safe attempting such an edgeguard as most other characters because Lucas is both floaty and in possession of a stellar recovery.

I will say that I've seen Falcons go for fast falled spikes to intercept this recovery option, and they are oftentimes successful.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I find the opposite to be true sometimes. I try to go for a gimp on Yoshi players, but they always recover high, meaning I can't gimp them.

 

[S_B]

I find the opposite to be true sometimes. I try to go for a gimp on Yoshi players, but they always recover high, meaning I can't gimp them.

Yoshi doesn't really have to worry about getting gimped out of his double jump (not until it ends, anyway). He also doesn't go into helpless state after an Up+B like Luigi, Ganon, Ryu, etc.

It's the characters that want to hit the ledge exactly when their recovery will ledge snap that always drop to a minimum distance below the ledge before using Up+B, so you hypothetically always know where they're going to be right before they go to recover.

Overshooting the ledge because your recovery didn't snap will basically cost you a stock, unless at very low percentages. I just see how players return to the stage as one more potential mixup, but it rarely seems to happen that way because of how many low recoveries go unchallenged (as was mentioned earlier, sometimes fastfalling Falcons do capitalize on this, just not very often).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Depends on the recovery. Say Duck Hunt Dog in vanilla? I go after that recovery every time, its not particularly hard to catch.
Some are harder to take then others and so naturally its going to take longer to feel comfortable taking them in a tournament setting when trying to minimize the risks. People go for **** all the time outside of that.

 

[LightLV]

It's because recovering players are catered to in this game. You almost put yourself at more risk trying to stop some characters vs. others.

 

[S_B]

Depends on the recovery. Say Duck Hunt Dog in vanilla?

DHD's recovery snaps at any height, though.

In this case, I'm referring purely to characters like Luigi, Falcon/Dorf, Ryu, etc. who have an Up+B that can rise past the ledge without snapping to it unless they Up+B from a very specific point below the ledge.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Up B's in this game have very strong priority, and most characters don't really have good options to go and chase them away from the ledge. @ L LightLV is sort of right, going off stage to attack sometimes puts you in risk due to air dodging and high priority.

Also any smart smasher would know to try mixing up their recovery.

 

[S_B]

Up B's in this game have very strong priority, and most characters don't really have good options to go and chase them away from the ledge. @ L LightLV is sort of right, going off stage to attack sometimes puts you in risk due to air dodging and high priority.

Also any smart smasher would know to try mixing up their recovery.

That makes sense.

I just couldn't help but wonder why certain characters were dropping to a specific depth every single time before recovering, and yet never getting punished for doing so...

 

[Trunks159]

To answer OP, the reason is is because the risk is unnecessary. Not a lot of characters can even reliably punish it. If you go for it and miss, you have completely lost stage control, which is a HUGE thing in competitive Smash. I've played and seen games lost on the ledges, where characters simply can't come back on from the stage without take 60% or so. Why would you give up a hugely advantageous position for something with unreliable reward?

 

[Dream Cancel]

It's entirely character and Match-up reliant.

For example, if I'm playing as Mr. Game & Watch against Ryu, then going off-stage to threaten Ryu's recovery is well worth the effort because of my great off-stage options and recovery. (B-air for a stage spike, D-air and F-air for gimping, U-air for preventing spikes and edge guards, on top of having hit boxes on Up special) This is compounded by the fact that Ryu has a fairly predictable and short recovery and Mr. Game & Watch has the necessary tools to make edge guarding happen.

On the flip side, Ryu has almost no options against Mr. Game & Watch off-stage. Ryu needs to get back on stage as soon as possible (because that's where he kills people) so it's fine if he has to take some hits if he make it back on stage.

You also need to consider what options your character has off-stage and their limits on how far out they can go.

For example, Fox can go fairly far off-stage, but he has no gimping tool, no spiking tool, or no killing tool off-stage, so it's not worth it for him to take the risk. His only options for kills are his B-air for stage spikes or U-air for kills off the ceiling, but B-airs can be teched and U-airs need spot on execution and some prior conditioning to pull off, not to mention it's much safer using U-airs on stage. (Don't forget he's a fast faller as well)

Bottom line, do your homework on your characters and test their limits.