Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Dubforce]

I just had a 6 hour smash fest. I have to say, sonic feels sooooooooo good. I love it. You can still be an ******* with spins, but you dont have to.

Sonics jab/tilt pressure is so good. Even my buddy's fox (which normally can 3 stock me) has trouble getting out of shield pressure against my sonic.

Two things I hate now though: Platforms and shine. **** em both.

 

[GHNeko]

wat.

how does a fox have trouble getting out of sonic's jab/tilt "pressure"

it's got like ...sizable holes in it.

 

[Dubforce]

wat.

how does a fox have trouble getting out of sonic's jab/tilt "pressure"

it's got like ...sizable holes in it.

Then you are doing it wrong. Tilt > reset > tilt > reset. Utilt leads to grabs which leads to either a CG or side-b pressure.

 

[GHNeko]

Are you talking about shield pressure?

Like what type of pressure are you talking about.

Cuz typically when people refer to pressure in Smash, it's generally assumed to be shield pressure.

 

[Senpai♥]

Sonic is ridiculous... I have no idea how to deal with him. I'm currently playing against a friend who abuses Sonic's spin dash endlessly. He literally almost never approaches me with anything else, and, while it's predictable, it's also incredibly effective. It constantly 'clinks' against my attacks (I think a Bowser Bomb 'clinked' once against it... I swear!), and leaves Sonic with no lag whatsoever--just to start up another Spin Dash.

Spin Dash is so incredibly hard to deal with if the opponent never stops using it. What can I do?

My main is Bowser, and I already realize that perhaps he's not the best character to handle Sonic, but... even my secondary characters like Ike struggle against it. It's ridiculous. I've tried a variety of characters, but they all fall to the single strategy of being in Spin Dash ALL THE TIME... Heck, I thought Bowser's superarmor would help me out, but the constant stream of hitboxes from Spin Dash means that I'm usually getting hit anyways. Sonic's just so safe in that thing. Always.

What do I dooooooooooooo?!

 

[GHNeko]

Use sex kicks and projectiles.

Wait you're bowser?


lmao up b oos. CC dtilt. jab. Firebreath.

Bowser has so many options to beat or stop spindash.

 

[Senpai♥]

Downtilt and jab clink against Sonic's Spin Dash, and he can send out another one and hit me before I can get another one out. Up+B OOS is one of the more reliable options I have, and I don't get the space I need to use Firebreath.

It's not like I can't beat Sonic, because I do manage to do it plenty of hte time. It's just that he's such a pain in the *** to fight against, it's unreal.

 

[GHNeko]

Are you flame canceling your Firebreath?

If you clink, you should be Up Bing right after.

reverse utilt outright beats it as well.

 

[Senpai♥]

Yeah, of course. I just don't get any breathing room at all, and u-tilt works when I get a chance to use it.

It's just that I really struggle to throw anything at him fast enough. Everything ELSE seems to clink against Spin Dash.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Yeah, of course. I just don't get any breathing room at all, and u-tilt works when I get a chance to use it.

It's just that I really struggle to throw anything at him fast enough. Everything ELSE seems to clink against Spin Dash.

Something bowser has against Sonic is early kills.

Bowser can kill sonic with a fair at like 67% and has other moves that kill real early.

Up B OoS, is great vs spin too.

 

[Senpai♥]

Up B OOS isn't so hot against Spin Dash, I've found out, because of the amount of shield stun I get. I just can't get it off before Sonic's out of range.

 

[GHNeko]

Can you post videos? It's easier to analyze and critique when we can visually what's happening.

 

[Senpai♥]

I'll see what I can do. I'm not the best player (and neither is my friend), but you should get an idea when I have some uploaded.

 

[Dubforce]

I just either down-b/side-b out of shield or drop the shield and run for the hills. I still don't feel good abotu shield-pressure with sonic. I would just rather run away and come back spinning.

 

[Tero.]

Can somebody explain some uses of side B and down B?
The only thing I found is down B to Nair, which is ok.
Haven't found any real uses for side B yet.

Also are there any cancels on Sonic special attacks like there were in 2.1?

 

[GHNeko]

Side B somersault drags opponents with Sonic and at medium to high percents, causes knockdown. So you can JC grab out of it. Since you can jump out of it, you can wavedash out of it, meaning that if it causes knockdown, WD forward into jab reset. Pressing A gets the Slide Kick which has high KB on the initial hit, which is good for getting people off the stage.

Aerial version of side B knocks people up, allowing you to DJ out of side b and follow up with an aerial.

It also ledge cancels/edge cancels, so you can maneuver platforms.

There is more, but that's just a basic sense.

Down B is great for a bunch. WDing out of it is one of it's best uses, especially on hit. Since WDOOSD (Wavedash out of Spin Dash) sets up for kill moves on hit. It also sets up for grabs at low percents.

Aerial Down B hitbox sets up for juggles and kill moves on bad DI.

Again. There is more, but that's just the basics of it.

you can do a lot, you just need the creativity and the practice to do so.

 

[iLink]

So I was doing some lab work and found something interesting.

I can't really describe the exact timing needed to do this, you kinda need to toy with it until you get the timing down yourself.

Anywho, basically try to do a dacus but purposely time it so you get a grab instead. What will happen is you will cancel the first few frames of your dash attack with a grab. You will know you did it right if you hear the dash attack sfx. What this means is you can attack someone's shield and immediately go into a grab. GaW can do this too. Haven't tried many others yet.

 

[GHNeko]

Oh. That. You don't even have to do a DACUS. Just press Z a couple frames after A. ****'s pretty cash lol. It's great when your opponent shields a lot, but outside that, it's meh.

 

[iLink]

O dang I just tried it with just Z and you were right lol. Well that's nifty.

 

[GHNeko]

Speaking of nifty. FF Dair is the best edgeguard.

FH DJ FF Dair also ACs

And at low percents, you can WDOOSD > Pivot Grab

 

[Wizzrobe]

Back from Apex, videos should be out soon and I'll post them in the other thread

 

[GHNeko]

Wizzrobe your sonic is silly lol.

 

[Tero.]

I hated Sonics new fair first, but after some matches I think it's really helpful to get early kills.
I love uthrow fair if they DI wrong.

Also does anyone else has trouble wavedashing out of down B? I think timing is a little bit different because Down B Jump is faster than regular jump. My WD aren't that smooth like normal if I do them out of spindash.

 

[`dazrin]

Seems like downb-> nair is the go-to kill option lol.

Also who needs dash-dancing when you could just downb in the neutral game, eh, Wizzy? ;D

No but seriously your sonic *****. It's hella spammy though- but don't worry cuz mine is spammy as hell also xD

 

[Wizzrobe]

Seems like downb-> nair is the go-to kill option lol.

Also who needs dash-dancing when you could just downb in the neutral game, eh, Wizzy? ;D

No but seriously your sonic *****. It's hella spammy though- but don't worry cuz mine is spammy as hell also xD

Spin dash is just so good and the best approach by far.

I hated Sonics new fair first, but after some matches I think it's really helpful to get early kills.
I love uthrow fair if they DI wrong.

Also does anyone else has trouble wavedashing out of down B? I think timing is a little bit different because Down B Jump is faster than regular jump. My WD aren't that smooth like normal if I do them out of spindash.

It is, you have to wait till the end/last half of the animation to be able to jump of out side B

 

[MarioNPinkie]

Sonic's spin dash is pretty beast

 

[batistabus]

I like the changes made to 2.5 Sonic, but I honestly don't think it's enough. It's certainly too early to make a full judgement, but there are two moves that, in my opinion, make him feel very unlike a Melee character. Down B and Neutral B. These moves aren't necessarily broken or overpowered, but their design doesn't jive well with the rest of the cast, and may be the cause of the polarizing attitude towards him.

Homing Attack fails on two levels; it's almost impossible to gauge when it will certainly hit or not, and it locks on. Samus has guided missiles, but these moves are on very different levels. I don't think there should be a move that guarantees a hit in such a way. My proposed change is that Neutral B should always just be Blast Attack (which is currently B, A). The way the move works when it hits would be the same, but it would have a set, reliable trajectory that isn't as guaranteed out of combos.

Down B serves the same purpose that Side B served in Demo 2.1. It is too effective and disruptive, and people who understand the character exploit it as much as possible. It has basically become a substitute for running. I suggest that Down B should only cause Sonic to spin in place. It could be charged up and have the same damage effects as in 2.5 (still can be shield canceled), but wouldn't cause Sonic to shoot forward when released. This would allow pressure somewhat similar too a shine, but instead of knocking characters back a certain distance, it would provide multiple hits (and possibly a follow-up grab as I've seen a number of players implement already).

These two moves aside, I think Sonic is really solid. I think the buffs/tweaks he's received in other areas make him a really strong contender, and I think these changes would help develop him more in that direction.

I know some of you Sonic players are really attached to the play-style I'm arguing against, and it's too early to say anything for certain, but I've been considering this since 2.1. Sonic's current design is certainly unique, but I don't think it's beneficial for Project M overall.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I like the changes made to 2.5 Sonic, but I honestly don't think it's enough. It's certainly too early to make a full judgement, but there are two moves that, in my opinion, make him feel very unlike a Melee character. Down B and Neutral B. These moves necessarily broken or overpowered, but their design doesn't jive well with the rest of the cast, and may be the cause of the polarizing attitude towards him.

Homing Attack fails on two levels; it's almost impossible to gauge when it will certainly hit or not, and it locks on. Samus has guided missiles, but these moves are on very different levels. I don't think there should be a move that guarantees a hit in such a way. My proposed change is that Neutral B should always just be Blast Attack (which is currently B, A). The way the move works when it hits would be the same, but it would have a set, reliable trajectory that isn't as guaranteed out of combos.

Down B serves the same purpose that Side B served in Demo 2.1. It is too effective and disruptive, and people who understand the character exploit it as much as possible. It has basically become a substitute for running. I suggest that Down B should only cause Sonic to spin in place. It could be charged up and have the same damage effects as in 2.5 (still can be shield canceled), but wouldn't cause Sonic to shoot forward when released. This would allow pressure somewhat similar too a shine, but instead of knocking characters back a certain distance, it would provide multiple hits (and possibly a follow-up grab as I've seen a number of players implement already).

These two moves aside, I think Sonic is really solid. I think the buffs/tweaks he's received in other areas make him a really strong contender, and I think these changes would help develop him more in that direction.

I know some of you Sonic players are really attached to the play-style I'm arguing against, and it's too early to say anything for certain, but I've been considering this since 2.1. Sonic's current design is certainly unique, but I don't think it's beneficial for Project M overall.

Don't play Sonic,

people aren't used to this kind of stuff so they don't want to deal with it. Sonic is not OP or broken or anything, he still loses some MU's despite these great moves so I don't see how it's a problem. Sonic had these moves in Brawl as well they just were not near as good.

It's like Jiggz or IC's, Sonic is just a unique character. I don't want another typical FF aerial Melee character, I like Sonic for Sonic.

And at this point in PM's lifetime, changing the character this much would be like getting rid of him completely.

 

[roymaster803]

I like the new Sonic. He's more combo friendly and his tricks are better without being really abusive. Down-B feel just like 2.1 side B just wihout the arch. It sets up better for combos, Fair and Nair. Haen't been able to use Homing Attack very well though. Overall he seems like a better character, Now that you can actually die it takes more skill to use him. imo he's better than 2.1.

 

[Tero.]

How come we don't have a frama data topic like all the other characters?
Also we don't have a Texture topic so I might start one if nobody else wants to.

Btw who is the lead designer for Sonic in P:M?

 

[Nazo]

Sethlon and Cmart, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Wizzrobe]

How come we don't have a frama data topic like all the other characters?
Also we don't have a Texture topic so I might start one if nobody else wants to.

Btw who is the lead designer for Sonic in P:M?

There was that costume topic thread and I don't know frame data but I would absolutely love if we could get that information somehow.

 

[Sethlon]

Btw who is the lead designer for Sonic in P:M?

Sonics actually something of a special case due to his controversial nature; he doesn't have a singular lead designer. Cmart, FireBallStars, and GHNeko were all pivotal designers when I came on. Near the end process of 2.5 Rat and I were given the final say on what direction we would go in, but in the end its been much more of a team effort than any singular designer.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Sonics actually something of a special case due to his controversial nature; he doesn't have a singular lead designer. Cmart, FireBallStars, and GHNeko were all pivotal designers when I came on. Near the end process of 2.5 Rat and I were given the final say on what direction we would go in, but in the end its been much more of a team effort than any singular designer.

Is there any place to look or is there any person I can ask for Sonic frame data?

 

[batistabus]

people aren't used to this kind of stuff so they don't want to deal with it. Sonic is not OP or broken or anything, he still loses some MU's despite these great moves so I don't see how it's a problem. Sonic had these moves in Brawl as well they just were not near as good.

It's like Jiggz or IC's, Sonic is just a unique character. I don't want another typical FF aerial Melee character, I like Sonic for Sonic.

And at this point in PM's lifetime, changing the character this much would be like getting rid of him completely.

I meant to say I was suggesting these changes for overall design quality, not because he was over-powered. Just because there are ways to deal with things, it doesn't mean that they're good for the game. I'm not the authority on what is and isn't good for Project M, but that's just what I think (and have thought).

I'm not suggesting any changes to Sonic's weight or fall speed or anything like that. I don't have a problem with characters being unique. I think PM characters like Lucario, Zelda, and Snake are unique in positive ways.

I know you really like him and I respect your skill with him, but that's pretty much what I'm hoping for. =/

 

[Sethlon]

Is there any place to look or is there any person I can ask for Sonic frame data?

AFAIK all the current frame data for characters is taken by simply extracting the the numbers from the .pac files directly with BrawlBox/PSA.

 

[`dazrin]

Ask StandardToaster, Wizzy. Lol

 

[Wizzrobe]

Ask StandardToaster, Wizzy. Lol

I messaged him.

 

[GHNeko]

Why is falco so hard to approach man.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Why is falco so hard to approach man.

If the Falco is lasering perfectly, then yes he is very hard to approach.