Guide Sonic GUIDE/FAQ: ASK QUESTIONS HERE

[Camalange]

The next post in my lab thread was probably going to be an in depth , exact percentage breakdown of when up air, nair and bair all combo out of up throw.

For example, on bowser jr, up throw to bair is a combo from 0- about 35, and requires a double jump after 13

Word, that's a solid idea.

I know on characters like Sheik and Falcon, Uthrow > Bair can true combo with a jump or double jump (rage and percent depending) as high as 30-50% (rage and percent depending).

 

[Ciex]

Nice thread! After seeing the latest results and tech from Sonic players, I'm willing to give this character a real try.
I've stuck to ZSS for a long time, I love her combos. But god damn it - I hate her grab, so it's time to try something new. I've also considered Tink but i'll go try Sonic first.

Just a thought:
Something i've thought of when seeing Sonic players in action is that a lot of Sonic players rarely go for grabs and instead almost always use down/side-b into some follow up. With that running speed, I'd think he should have one of the better grabs in the game as he actually has followups after throws. Sorry if this has been brought up.

 

[Camalange]

My playstyle is grabs and Bair...

Sonics that don't abuse his grab disappoint me.

 

[Ciex]

My playstyle is grabs and Bair...

That's the playstyle that will be likely to fit me as well. Seems way more fun and effective.
It's just something that i've been noticing a lot when watching streams and i think that Sonic's grab could be abused more than it currently is. Most players, as i said almost always use the spin dashes from what i've seen. Maybe it's just me though...?
Neither makes the character fun to watch and probably not fun to play in my opinion.

Definitely trying this character out. Amazing thread! Coming back with questions if I have any.

 

[da K.I.D.]

20 percent is the reason spindash is preferred to grab.

20 percent os the max damage you can get off a grb, not including pummels and you only get that at low percents on certain characters. Spindash hits for a minimum of 17 percent, and can go as high as 33 percent inescapably. Sonics grab just doesnt do enough damage to warrant using it more than spindash. Up throw up air is 15, up throw nair is 18 and up throw bair is 20.

 

[Espy Rose]

Grab is better than spindash.

 

[Damandatwin]

Espy Rose why?

 

[MarKO X]

I don't know. You need both. Spindashes punish missed inputs. Grabs punish shields. Your creativity punishes spotdodges.

Spindashes should, on average, put a solid 17-25 percent damage on an opponent with a missed/laggy input.

Grabs are for those who lie in fear and hide behind the shield. You can get the low damage combos for 12-20 percent and the dthrow tech chases (if you're opponent doesn't know better). At mid damage, you can still get some combos from upthrow, as well as some added pummels to add damage (which could put grabs at on par with the average damage that Sonic's get from spindash), and depending on the character (and player), you can still get dthrow tech chases). At high percents, you tack on even more damage from pummels, as each pummel is about 2% damage... three pummels plus upthrow gives you 12%.

Then they spotdodge... run past pivot smashes, charged jcus'es, screech stop grabs, or maybe slow the game down a bit and let your jabs and tilts do the talking... it's all on you to figure that out.

At the end of the day, it's probably all about positioning and stage control. Miss a spin dash, and you might lose stage control because you're all the way over there now. Grabs can keep you in the fray if you miss... maybe. Still, I'm convinced you need both.

We do have nice grab range tho. That might be a reason to (ab)use it.

Edit: just because spindashes do more damage doesn't mean that the grab isn't more effective at getting damage. Grabs can consistently put the opponent in a bad position. Like Li'l Mac. Yeah, you can spindash him, but tossing him into the air with uthrow, baiting his poor aerial or an airdodge on landing, and grabbing again for another uthrow can and will add up.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

GUYS.

Never thought of this before but.. coming from below, use SD against someone shielding on a platform..

SDH > SDR >* SDJ >** Dair for shield damage (will most likely break it if it's not at full health);
*> full stop (the low velocity SDR hitting the shield allows this to happen. Just press back and you'll screech stop instantly. Follow up with w/e, but I think grab is the recommended choice here);
**> full charge HA (if the opponent doesn't tilt the shield, it's possible that the HA will hit no matter what. The bigger the character, the easier for the HA to connect. Deals maximum shield damage possible from this setup, AFAIK. ALSO, if done at the right shield health, tilting it will mean breaking it - also, this would work best on smaller characters! win-win hnnnnnnnnnnng);
**> Spring > Dair (same thing as the HA, but the dair will most likely hit).

Also, seeing as this was tested with shield being held for a short time before the SD was used, it's most likely that the Dair combo will ensure a shield break. I mean, just fake out short hop once or twice while they're in the shield before using this and it's a guaranteed shield break.

BF will surely become more Sonic friendly now. Protip: quick short hop into SD for lower platforms and quick double jump into SD for the top one.

Go try it and come back with more info pls.

 

[Drover]

Guys, I'm confused with doing the quick aerial spinshot either side-b or down-b. I can do a late spinshot but not a fast one. I watched Camalange's spinshot tutorial but I'm having trouble with the inputs.

For aerial side-b, I hold B for a short time period then I release it and press jump(X) and it never works. I am trying to do it quick like this ᪳ ᷿in the video at around 2:13.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0zZLqnCNN0

 

[jaimex2]

For aerial side-b, I hold B for a short time period then I release it and press jump(X) and it never works. I am trying to do it quick like this ᪳ ᷿in the video at around 2:13.

Set you C-Stick to attack and flick it the second you release B.

 

[Camalange]

Guys, I'm confused with doing the quick aerial spinshot either side-b or down-b. I can do a late spinshot but not a fast one. I watched Camalange's spinshot tutorial but I'm having trouble with the inputs.

For aerial side-b, I hold B for a short time period then I release it and press jump(X) and it never works. I am trying to do it quick like this ᪳ ᷿in the video at around 2:13.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0zZLqnCNN0

Yeah, I always use C-Stick for all versions of Spinshot.

And as noted, Spinshot for Side-B only works with C-Stick if you set it to Attack and not Smash.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I get it to work just well with only pressing A.
... on the 3DS... I don't have a Wii U to lab it out.

 

[Camalange]

I get it to work just well with only pressing A.
... on the 3DS... I don't have a Wii U to lab it out.

It's surprisingly easy to just roll your thumb from B to A on 3DS but I just don't like it on GC.

 

[Espy Rose]

I used the a method back in brawl so i never had a problem with it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I slide from b to y to spinshot.

But it doesnt give full distance At the very beginning of the side b charge

 

[Camalange]

C-Stick 4 lyfe.

 

[Espy Rose]

C-Stick 4 plebs.

Ftfy.

 

[Camalange]

Fml.

haha dude calm down it's gonna be okay

 

[ぱみゅ]

I used the a method back in brawl so i never had a problem with it.

Is the timing the same? I do have Brawl to practice.

 

[Espy Rose]

haha dude you're so much better than me

Yeah.

 

[Camalange]

Is the timing the same? I do have Brawl to practice.

Yeah.

I think Espy meant to quote you here. These misteaks happen.

 

[KyroChao]

Ive always used c stick its just so much easier to use

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I use a mixture of both depending on which spin attack on' spinshooting from and whether it's in the air. Aerial spin charge I use c stick while Spin Dash I tend to shift from B to the A button both on the ground and in the air.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm going to Genesis 3.

Cool.

 

[Camalange]

Pls?

I'll think about it.

 

[Nudisto Shiza]

hi, new Sonic main. I was just wondering what ways I might be able to avoid self destructing as sonic, it seems that when I play our favorite blue hedgehog I either do really well or self destruct to an early game over.

 

[jaimex2]

hi, new Sonic main. I was just wondering what ways I might be able to avoid self destructing as sonic, it seems that when I play our favorite blue hedgehog I either do really well or self destruct to an early game over.

#1
Read up on this thread under "The BSBS Mechanic"

In a nutshell, always make sure you have 1 jump available before doing side B or you will die. Even if your spin hits ground you will continue to roll unable to jump .

#2
Know that side B moves you back a fair amount. Both in the air and ground you can kill yourself deceptively thinking you will land a spinning charge near a ledge when really you just fall through and die.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

So I've been messing around with early autocancels. To my knowledge, you cannot use a moves FAF to cancel the remainder of an aerials recovery in an attempt to abuse early autocancels to avoid the landing lag you would otherwise receive. I wanted to see if this was the case for our spin specials. Fortunately, it isn't, for Spin Dash and ASD at least.
With good enough timing, we can cancel aerial spin states with aerial attacks just before landing and get an early autocancel, which means we avoid landing in the spin state and entering BSBS. However, this doesn't work for Spin Charge and ASC, and I have no idea why. When you try it with SC/ASC, you'll either get landing lag from your aerial of choice, because it was initiated too early, or you will simply land in the spin state and buffer a grounded action. Oddly enough, various sub states will allow an early autocancel regardless of which spin special it was initiated from, such as VSJ and ISDJ/ISCJ.

Essentially, you can't get an early autocancel by cancelling out of Spin Charge, but you can with Spin Dash. Do we know this is the case? What is the fundamental difference between SD and SC that makes it so you can't cancel out of SC like any other aerial, but you can do so with SD?

EDIT: Sonic Orochi

 

[Sonic Orochi]

So I've been messing around with early autocancels. To my knowledge, you cannot use a moves FAF to cancel the remainder of an aerials recovery in an attempt to abuse early autocancels to avoid the landing lag you would otherwise receive. I wanted to see if this was the case for our spin specials. Fortunately, it isn't, for Spin Dash and ASD at least.
With good enough timing, we can cancel aerial spin states with aerial attacks just before landing and get an early autocancel, which means we avoid landing in the spin state and entering BSBS. However, this doesn't work for Spin Charge and ASC, and I have no idea why. When you try it with SC/ASC, you'll either get landing lag from your aerial of choice, because it was initiated too early, or you will simply land in the spin state and buffer a grounded action. Oddly enough, various sub states will allow an early autocancel regardless of which spin special it was initiated from, such as VSJ and ISDJ/ISCJ.

Essentially, you can't get an early autocancel by cancelling out of Spin Charge, but you can with Spin Dash. Do we know this is the case? What is the fundamental difference between SD and SC that makes it so you can't cancel out of SC like any other aerial, but you can do so with SD?

EDIT: Sonic Orochi

I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by "cancel aerial spin states with aerial attacks just before landing"? The Aerial Spin states are ASC, SDH and ASDR, and the only thing possible of doing from those is double jumping (if it's available, that is). How are you cancelling them with an aerial attack?

 

[Ixisnaugus]

I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by "cancel aerial spin states with aerial attacks just before landing"? The Aerial Spin states are ASC, SDH and ASDR, and the only thing possible of doing from those is double jumping (if it's available, that is). How are you cancelling them with an aerial attack?

I'm referring to when you're able to attack, djc, or HA/Spring out of spin states, like after you've just used SD/SCJ. Incorrect wording on my part to refer to those as "aerial spin states", apologies.

 

[Camalange]

I'm referring to when you're able to attack, djc, or HA/Spring out of spin states, like after you've just used SD/SCJ. Incorrect wording on my part to refer to those as "aerial spin states", apologies.

But if you're already in a SJ state, you would just land on the ground. You don't go back into a spin upon landing. I think I'm missing something here too.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

But if you're already in a SJ state, you would just land on the ground. You don't go back into a spin upon landing. I think I'm missing something here too.

When you land during the spin state though, you activate BSBS. Though you can always just cancel out of the state early anytime, if you don't want to commit to anything earlier and land as quickly as possible, you can use an aerial just a couple frames before landing and autocancel the aerial early, so you don't get any landing lag as well as landing outside of the spin state to avoid the pact with the devil. For some reason though, this works with Spin Dash, but not Spin Charge, and I don't know why.

 

[Camalange]

When you land during the spin state though, you activate BSBS.

Oh okay, I got confused in the wording.

Though you can always just cancel out of the state early anytime, if you don't want to commit to anything earlier and land as quickly as possible, you can use an aerial just a couple frames before landing and autocancel the aerial early, so you don't get any landing lag as well as landing outside of the spin state to avoid the pact with the devil. For some reason though, this works with Spin Dash, but not Spin Charge, and I don't know why.

Hm, well, Uair would be the only optimal aerial for this really, right? It's the only one that autocancels really low to the ground.

 

[jaimex2]

Oh okay, I got confused in the wording.
Hm, well, Uair would be the only optimal aerial for this really, right? It's the only one that autocancels really low to the ground.

Yup, thats what I've been using anyway. NAIR and FAIR have a short bounce animation.

 

[vegeta18]

is there any point in b reverse side b or down b with sonic?

 

[Sonic Meaper]

Hey guys i have some questions
Do you approach by run>jump short hop> fair or nair or is there any other ways? I think i am not good at approaching.
Can you ledge guard on players that are on ledge by short hop then spin charge (press once) then jab. I just found this and i'm not sure if anyone knows.
Is it possible to ledge snap out of spin dash or spin charge if you're recovering? I tried it in 3DS version and i cant figure out how.
I was new here so can anyone tell me about new advanced techiques discovered for sonic that benefit a lot?

 

[jaimex2]

Do you approach by run>jump short hop> fair or nair or is there any other ways?

Can you ledge guard on players that are on ledge by short hop then spin charge (press once) then jab.

Is it possible to ledge snap out of spin dash or spin charge if you're recovering?

new advanced techiques discovered for sonic that benefit a lot?

This video covers most of what you asked regarding approaches.

Its better to dtilt, dsmash or angle a fsmash down on a player grabbing the edge.

You cant grab the edge during any spin.

Read the first post of ths thread for advanced techniques.

 

[Camalange]

is there any point in b reverse side b or down b with sonic?

Sort of, because of shield canceling. You can get weird slides and pivots from it.

You can also B-Reverse ISDJ if you're a masochist.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

When you land during the spin state though, you activate BSBS. Though you can always just cancel out of the state early anytime, if you don't want to commit to anything earlier and land as quickly as possible, you can use an aerial just a couple frames before landing and autocancel the aerial early, so you don't get any landing lag as well as landing outside of the spin state to avoid the pact with the devil. For some reason though, this works with Spin Dash, but not Spin Charge, and I don't know why.

Okay, I understand now and I also have no idea why. It's most probably due to bad programming (as usual). It seems to affect only SCJ (and "I"SCJ) though, with no apparent effect on VSCJ (which corroborates the theory that VSCJ and VSDJ are just the same move: VSDJ - since it deals 3% instead of SCJ's 6%. That's why we should just call it VSJ and leave VSDJ to the new and useless jump from the SD).

Nevertheless, if you just wanna fastfall ASAP with no lag, just keep holding down during the SCJ animation and then press up on the C-stick. You'll automatically do a fastfallen Uair and land lagless.

is there any point in b reverse side b or down b with sonic?

AFAIK you can't reverse the SC. I use reverse SDs all the time though, specially for spacing and when running past opponents. You can also do a reverse grab with it: run -> reverse SD -> shield -> grab.

On a side note, I feel like when trying OoS stuff from the SDSC sometimes ends with me being stuck in shield even if I pressed A or jump correctly. Upon further testing, I think that being in the charging state for like a frame instead of buffering the shield will pretty much ensure that the OoS will work. Anyone else having this issue?

Is it possible to ledge snap out of spin dash or spin charge if you're recovering? I tried it in 3DS version and i cant figure out how.
I was new here so can anyone tell me about new advanced techiques discovered for sonic that benefit a lot?

We used to be able to but it was patched out as soon as the Wii U version came out.. *sigh*