Sonic is OP

[Stutterfoot]

There is no question about it in my mind.

His spin dash clashes with everything.

My friend barely plays smash and mains sonic. I practice every day and main link.

Spinspinspinspinspin

He spin dashes just past me through my shield and starts a new one, pressuring my shield or hitting me when I drop it.

I'm not saying that sonic players have no skill, but I am saying that it doesn't seem to take any skill to wreck with him.

Just my opinion. I don't want to flame.

I just feel like all i can do is stand there and sword spin to intercept, though i usually have many options available to me. I have no time to pull out projectiles, even if I throw a boomerang from accross the stage I get punished and it clashes with his goddam spin dash anyway.

Aside from me ranting, any tips on this matchup? Your thoughts?

 

[SpiderMad]

Wait another month or so, in the meantime unplug his controller.

 

[Stutterfoot]

Source?

 

[XalchemistX]

I think that Sonic can easily be defeated with a spamming of projectiles.

 

[geno]

I usually play Tink against Sonic, I pull out bombs and place them on the ground all throughout the match. It does a good job at messing up their spin attack game, because they'll just keep crashing into bombs. I'm not sure if links bombs are as effective, but I'd give that a try.

 

[Nguz95]

Snake. Guided missiles wreck his recovery, as do the grenades. All of his projectiles blow him out of the spin. The match is no fun though.

 

[Planet Piss]

Playing a Falco who understands spacing against Sonic (how not to get grabbed/gimped) is some of the most frustrating ****. If he goes near the ledge, he dies, but every point until then is so aggravating.

And yeah, Sonic's a pretty ridiculous character, but it's more of his nature of a... thing... than it is his specific moves. If we want a character who acts like Sonic in the games, then we have one who does auto-punish moves from across the stage because of how fast he is. The problem is that is that no one outside of our little circle-spin really wants that.

 

[Tero.]

There is no question about it in my mind.

His spin dash clashes with everything.

My friend barely plays smash and mains sonic. I practice every day and main link.

Spinspinspinspinspin

He spin dashes just past me through my shield and starts a new one, pressuring my shield or hitting me when I drop it.

I'm not saying that sonic players have no skill, but I am saying that it doesn't seem to take any skill to wreck with him.

Just my opinion. I don't want to flame.

I just feel like all i can do is stand there and sword spin to intercept, though i usually have many options available to me. I have no time to pull out projectiles, even if I throw a boomerang from accross the stage I get punished and it clashes with his goddam spin dash anyway.

Aside from me ranting, any tips on this matchup? Your thoughts?

learn 2 play

 

[SnatoWhato]

Snake definitely gives me trouble when I play as Sonic. I tend to go all over the stage and all his little land mines and explosions really screw me. He's not unbeatable, just a nuisance. Same goes for most characters packing projectiles. My second main is Link and I have no problems against Sonic.. although none of my buds use him. So I'm referencing a computer. I'm the only Sonic main in my circle of friends.. so I can't really tell you if he's a bad match-up. But I don't think any character is OP. You just have to practice against Sonic and learn your friend's attack pattern/strategy.

I think Bombs would work better than the Boomerang. You know you can send all three projectiles at him from different angles at once.. he's bound to receive damage that way. And since Sonic is such an aggressive fighter, you may just want to wait for him to come to you, evade his attacks and counter..

I'm pretty sure you've tried this stuff already, all I can say is just practice against level 9 Sonic for a while.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Most players may think Sonic is OP, but when someone is able read his spins you can pretty much shut down most of his approaching options. Most of the characters also have a certain aerial attack that can counter his nair and homing attack.

 

[~Frozen~]

Sure you can counter his spins with aerials, but then you have the risk factor.

Sonic's spin is literally Options: The Move and you can just wavedash out of it to bait people into doing an aerial and then punishing said attack with ANOTHER spin. It's so non-committal it's crazy. Also, spin basically auto-comboing into a Nair that kills at 90-100ish? And I thought Fox's Uthrow->Uair was dumb, this takes it to a whole new level.

I'm not going to blatantly say Sonic is OP as there could be many reasons as to why he isn't, and one move may not make him broken at all, but the way Spin works as a move right now is just VERY poor design IMO, and hopefully gets a revamp in the next release along with hopefully, the rest of Sonic's moveset, because we've seen 3 iterations of Sonic now and he seems to either turn out laughably bad or over-reliant on 1 or 2 moves.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Hmmm....I guess you have a point. But how would the PMBR change his spinmoves without making him bad? The only move I can think of for his down-b is the bounce attack from SA2.

 

[SnatoWhato]

That bounce attack would be nice as an aerial down B. Its like that on SSFlash 2.

 

[Arcalyth]

down-b bounce attack would be cool, then they can put spin back on side-b, force a maximum charge time on it, only allow shield cancel while charging, and only allow jump-cancel after a certain amount of frames like Ike's side-b.

biased edit/complaint: why can sonic slowfall his dair? =/

another idea: make the slide kick from the end of his current side-b into his dash attack

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

the neutral B automatically hitting someone within range is kind of silly, it deletes the aspect of actually reading ppl in edgeguards.
how about this: press b, and then hold the stick in the direction you want it to go.

 

[SnatoWhato]

Doesn't really make it a "homing attack" anymore. Besides, the damage and knockback is so minimal, it shouldn't even bother anyone. I mainly use it to come back to the stage.

 

[~Frozen~]

If you fall downwards offstage while Sonic tries to homing attack you, he'll most likely miss, and SD, then you can recover back. This works best if your character falls fast like the space animals, which is good because they're the ones most affected by homing attack edgeguards.

 

[ELI-mination]

Fox/Falco hate thread? Close it twice, a bunch of "know it alls" come in and try to educate people about melee in an elitist fashion, spacies remain unchanged, people who complain are declared noobs

Sonic op thread? Remains open, devs will probably support it and nerf Sonic and say he's broken, its openly accepted

 

[Ace55]

Fox/Falco hate thread? Close it twice, a bunch of "know it alls" come in and try to educate people about melee in an elitist fashion, spacies remain unchanged, people who complain are declared noobs

Sonic op thread? Remains open, devs will probably support it and nerf Sonic and say he's broken, its openly accepted

The spacie hate thread was open for months before it got totally derailed. Make another one if you must.

C'mon Eli you're better than this.

And oh yeah, 'tweak' Sonic plz.

 

[ELI-mination]

Where are all the melee players coming in to tell us how Sonic is fine and we should learn the matchup???????????
Oh yea that's right, there's a double standard.

 

[BlinkIV]

That's why I gave up posting in most threads. Complaining is obviously the best way to fix everything.

 

[whitmorethetoadpirate]

down-b bounce attack would be cool, then they can put spin back on side-b, force a maximum charge time on it, only allow shield cancel while charging, and only allow jump-cancel after a certain amount of frames like Ike's side-b.

biased edit/complaint: why can sonic slowfall his dair? =/

another idea: make the slide kick from the end of his current side-b into his dash attack

Basically this. It would be great if the changes could be implemented over a number of patches, introducing one or two changes each time. However, I have no idea how much time the people developing the game actually have on their hands, so I don't know how optimistic I should be about that happening. I just don't like that Ike had soooo many changes done to him all at once. Yes, he was undeniably silly due to his absurd killing power, range speed, etc. and I definitely still think he's a good character in 2.5, but he did get hit pretty hard.

I really like the ideas to make the spin function more similarly to Quickdraw though. Spin would still be unique but not allow you to apply pressure to your opponent without even moving.

 

[cmart]

biased edit/complaint: why can sonic slowfall his dair? =/

As weird as it seems the answer is physics. When Sonic starts dair, it sets a momentum boost to start his plummet. When you hold down you fastfall that... and fastfall's maximum velocity is ironically slower than dair's plummet. You can observe a similar phenomenon in melee by equipping Young Link with a bunny hood and fastfalling - he actually slows down. When we discovered this in playtesting, it was deemed too cool/unique to expend resources removing, so we left it in.

 

[Paradoxium]

I believe sex kick breaks his spin dash, just shuffle that then boomerang him. The only character I feel might be op is pit

 

[SpiderMad]

I use to think Pit might be OP but he isn't

 

[Aenglaan]

Doesn't mean that Sonic's OP, necessarily. However, I agree that Sonic is OP. He's ridiculously fast and combos incredibly well. Never the less, he's significantly easier to take down when he doesn't have his speed.

 

[Mono.]

Fox/Falco hate thread? Close it twice, a bunch of "know it alls" come in and try to educate people about melee in an elitist fashion, spacies remain unchanged, people who complain are declared noobs

Sonic op thread? Remains open, devs will probably support it and nerf Sonic and say he's broken, its openly accepted

It's **** like this that makes it really difficult to take the PM community seriously.

 

[MegaGuy]

A few points:

1) It's asinine to cry for nerfs in a game as young as this. Learn match-ups, flesh out metagames, and overall get better before you complain about a new character being "OP."

2) Listing Sonic's speed as an "OP" attribute is downright silly. Sonic is fast, that's kind of his thing. In a game that rewards high-mobility play, a character with good mobility will obviously flourish.

3) Why is it so bad to have a new top tier? I relish in the fact that Sanic demolishes the spacies, it's about damn time. This ain't Melee anymore, things are gonna change.

In closing, Sonic's a fast little bugger and unless the PMBR completely ruins his design, his speed will always let him dictate the pace of a match. Adapt or die bbys.

 

[SpiderMad]

You guys don't know what kind of monster you're dealing with, and the real Ike isn't here to save us

 

[ELI-mination]

On the contrary, its **** like that that makes it difficult to take the melee community seriously.

 

[whitmorethetoadpirate]

Where are all the melee players coming in to tell us how Sonic is fine and we should learn the matchup???????????
Oh yea that's right, there's a double standard.

Sonic is fine, we should learn the matchup.

 

[Ace55]

I'n not sure if he's actually OP but the PMBR seems to have failed spectacularly when they tried to 'fix' his 'spin to win' design.

 

[SAX]

Sonic, at the moment, I feel is not as overpowered as people think, but i think he should receive SLIGHT nerfs. I play with Wizzrobe pretty regularly, and it isn't impossible to win. Like his downB shield pressure can be shield grabbed and pivot grabbed, so if you have good reaction time it can be pretty easy to grab a sonic spinning toward you. However, the character forces you to camp, imo, with any character (bar bowser lol) in order to level the playing grounds, and a LOT of people play aggressively in P:M. Kinda like fighting Puff in melee. You have to camp puff out in order to win, unless you're just a better player outright. People just don't think of camping as an option in this game. Or at least I don't see it. Even Hbox plays pretty aggressively in his puff matches vs Wizzy's sonic. Also, I feel like sonic has sort of a Meta-knight vibe to project m. Not unbeatable, but definitely the best character. His aerials don't have much priority, so if a sonic approaches with aerials, many characters can EASILY outright beat sonic. However, his spin, Utilt, and Ftilt are downright ridiculous in priority imo. His Nair knockback is kind of stupid too, but thats getting picky. Maybe some balancing inbetween the priorities of his moves would help, or reconstructing his tilts with less range. Just offering my info with playing wizzy so much.

 

[whitmorethetoadpirate]

A lot of the points you make are very true. I'd say ~80% of the Sonic hate is just whining while the other 20% is actually constructive criticism (possibly even closer to 90:10). I really don't think many of his moves need to be touched except spin, and even then it doesn't need to just be nerfed into the ground. It just kills me when I see a Sonic player not utilizing his dash dance or ridiculous moonwalk when they're on the ground, they just resort to spinning because it's just that much better. I really feel if they can make it so Sonic is more similar to CF with his ludicrous speed (but still unique in his own way) then I think he would become a favorite character for many players, including myself, very quickly.

 

[Giygacoal]

I'n not sure if he's actually OP but the PMBR seems to have failed spectacularly when they tried to 'fix' his 'spin to win' design.

It doesn't help that his new animations are still spins, just different kinds of spins.

 

[Ace55]

It doesn't help that his new animations are still spins, just different kinds of spins.

I was talking more about his B moves. As Sonic, he should spin a lot. But it would be nice if he wouldn't have to use them for 90% of his approaches because they are simply his best options.

Buffing the rest of his moveset has basically just given him better ways of following up on said B-moves but his play style hasn't changed that much, still 'spin to win'.

 

[SAX]

I was talking more about his B moves. As Sonic, he should spin a lot. But it would be nice if he wouldn't have to use them for 90% of his approaches because they are simply his best options.

Buffing the rest of his moveset has basically just given him better ways of following up on said B-moves but his play style hasn't changed that much, still 'spin to win'.

It's always going to be "spin to win" That's like saying "marth shouldn't use his sword to approach because it's his best option." Like, why wouldn't you use your best option using a character? And if they didn't make spinning a viable option or sonic, he wouldnt be sonic. I'm more concerned about sonic's tilts than his spin. If you can't deal with sonic's spin, it's because you lack the MU experience. Fact. Or you have a slow reaction time. His Ftilt and Utilt are absurd, however. Ridiculous range and priority.

 

[tripp6313]

I play Sonic a lot.. I'm still new to the whole P:M community with only about 2 to 3 months worth of experience but i have practiced a lot with a friend of mine,DarkGun... or DG for short... i would not say I'm in the leagues of being one of the greats so take this information with a grain of salt but i have some experience.. and i do feel that i could put up a decent fight. for a while sonic was my main until I had decided to switch back to snake because i finally got comfortable with my brawl main again. The trouble i find with sonic is that he is a lightweight character and heavy attacks just devastate the **** out of me. I do find the spin dash to have a great approach however in the same context of that it clashes any attack you give it does leave sonic vulnerable as well to another attack. Maybe more experienced Sonic players have found ways around this, again only having 2 to 3 months worth of experience with this character, but he does have his flaws... just like with Bowser you have to lour him into a false since of security so he can be more prone to making error.. with sonic you need to be alright with crouch cancelling in order to cancel his ground game. another tactic DG is he forces me to use my second jump off when i'm off the ledge... sonics recovery is amazing but without the second it can be devastating in itself because it can mess up a hell of a lot, probably preaching this to the quire here but oh well...another flaw in sonic is that i find that characters with any projectile weapons are about a ***** to be honest... link's arrows can cans SideB and Spin Dash...Lucarios Big ass aura bomb devistate the **** out of me whenever i try to play the game of i'll reflect it because it follows by lucario grabbing me and me seein the explosive colors of death. but its a lot more a game of being patient and getting the right DI's in than other characters... you go in for the attack against sonic yes he will try to combo you... he is a combo *****... don't get me wrong at all... but like i've read several times before in this Thread you gotta learn the match up.

Honestly I don't think Sonic is OP... saying he is OP is the same as saying any other character because i can't beat him as easily as i can insert name here makes this character OP... he does have his opponents he finds to be easier to defeat, I personally do not have to much trouble with characters like Ganon with Sonic... but I do struggle with the likes of bowser. He's a strong character and don't get me wrong about that and he is a bit more user friendly than characters like squirtle but then again wasn't Ike just the same whenever Brawl first came out.. then everyone learned how to play against him so he drop in tier list... its gonna happen... and by that time P:M 3.0 will be out and we will be saying the same exact stuff about these new characters all over again.

 

[SAX]

I play Sonic a lot.. I'm still new to the whole P:M community with only about 2 to 3 months worth of experience but i have practiced a lot with a friend of mine,DarkGun... or DG for short... i would not say I'm in the leagues of being one of the greats so take this information with a grain of salt but i have some experience.. and i do feel that i could put up a decent fight. for a while sonic was my main until I had decided to switch back to snake because i finally got comfortable with my brawl main again. The trouble i find with sonic is that he is a lightweight character and heavy attacks just devastate the **** out of me. I do find the spin dash to have a great approach however in the same context of that it clashes any attack you give it does leave sonic vulnerable as well to another attack. Maybe more experienced Sonic players have found ways around this, again only having 2 to 3 months worth of experience with this character, but he does have his flaws... just like with Bowser you have to lour him into a false since of security so he can be more prone to making error.. with sonic you need to be alright with crouch cancelling in order to cancel his ground game. another tactic DG is he forces me to use my second jump off when i'm off the ledge... sonics recovery is amazing but without the second it can be devastating in itself because it can mess up a hell of a lot, probably preaching this to the quire here but oh well...another flaw in sonic is that i find that characters with any projectile weapons are about a ***** to be honest... link's arrows can cans SideB and Spin Dash...Lucarios Big *** aura bomb devistate the **** out of me whenever i try to play the game of i'll reflect it because it follows by lucario grabbing me and me seein the explosive colors of death. but its a lot more a game of being patient and getting the right DI's in than other characters... you go in for the attack against sonic yes he will try to combo you... he is a combo *****... don't get me wrong at all... but like i've read several times before in this Thread you gotta learn the match up.

Honestly I don't think Sonic is OP... saying he is OP is the same as saying any other character because i can't beat him as easily as i can insert name here makes this character OP... he does have his opponents he finds to be easier to defeat, I personally do not have to much trouble with characters like Ganon with Sonic... but I do struggle with the likes of bowser. He's a strong character and don't get me wrong about that and he is a bit more user friendly than characters like squirtle but then again wasn't Ike just the same whenever Brawl first came out.. then everyone learned how to play against him so he drop in tier list... its gonna happen... and by that time P:M 3.0 will be out and we will be saying the same exact stuff about these new characters all over again.

I agree with most of your post, however sonic is undoubtably the best character in the game at the moment. At least with the amount of knowledge we have right now, and a very limited amount of people willing to experiment with the game since it's all prone to change.

 

[Ace55]

It's always going to be "spin to win" That's like saying "marth shouldn't use his sword to approach because it's his best option." Like, why wouldn't you use your best option using a character? And if they didn't make spinning a viable option or sonic, he wouldnt be sonic. I'm more concerned about sonic's tilts than his spin. If you can't deal with sonic's spin, it's because you lack the MU experience. Fact. Or you have a slow reaction time. His Ftilt and Utilt are absurd, however. Ridiculous range and priority.

Yes comparing Marth's entire moveset to two moves of Sonic is a great example. From a player standpoint there is nothing wrong with using your best option, however from a design standpoint having two options (actually mostly down-b) outclass all his other options is poor design imo. I'm gonna counter by saying if you can deal with his spindashes purely via MU experience and reaction time than the Sonic is doing it wrong. You have to preemptively throw out a move or shield if you want to beat him out, both options Sonic can abuse by cancelling his spin.