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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

What is Sonic's worst match up?


  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .

da K.I.D.

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grenade stripping isnt really as useful as i think you are making it out to be.

he can only do it when theres one out already and you grab it, which means it requires set up time.

its not as much that we cant use his grenades against him because he can do that, its more like we can use them against him but we have to keep that in mind sort of thing
 

Kinzer

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LOLimar is probably the epitome of all things Gay in Brawl.

Now I'm not sure if it's just because I play with a not so decent Olimar here in Town, but I find that it can go from ****** Olimar to just being *****. You still have to put in one hundred times more effort than he does though just because he's a freaking fortress and you have to keep working around his defenses to poke him and make the most out of every assault. At least with this guy he does have blindspots, and they become even more apparent when he commits to an attack.

Some of his Pikmin have really horrible/strange priority. Aerials will clank with his attack. Still I wouldn't take chances with trying hit him them head-on, if he gets a purple chances are you'll lose out. Nothing is more infuriating than having him pull out a purple and getting killed before you hit triple digits. and this is probably just me but I really don't like characters that rely on so much luck factor, you can either get lucky and he won't pull out (m)any purples or Sakurai can feel like being a big fat beach and suddenly you see he has 2-3 fatsos by his side.

Don't be like me and think ledgehog = death for him. Usually you have to put in just a teeny bit more work to send him far enough offstage to gimp him. Trouble is that silly whistle will usually prevent any edgeguards and now you're the one whose offstage trying to recover. I'm not saying Olimar's edgeguarding is fearsome (at least not compared to a good MK's), but again you have to be careful and pick the right option because he can just swat you back offstage if he guesses right, or worse; kill you.

One last piece of info that will save you countless deaths, if you see Olimar Nairing you, SDI up/Away. For extra safety points, Spring. That USmash. :(







Game & Watch?

I don't know anymore. Nobody plays him anymore, everybody whores out to Meta Knight. :/ Only time I get to play against G&W is on crazy dumb stages, which is pointless because MK is just as good, if not better in that aspect too.

All I seem to recall is just SDI his Bair in front of him if you feel like being gutsy and punishing him (although he can defend against that, but I don't think it works all the time), or behind if you think he'll try to defend that and then counter whatever counter he had planned.

What else? Oh right don't play risky/put yourself in a situation to get punished. Holy Jeebus his smash attacks hit so hard and they're so slow that there's little reason to be dying so early.

Let's see, other than that I feel you can do whatever you want. Just don't try to edgeguard him, he's always going to make it back just like you. Really if you play it safe you shouldn't have much trouble against this guy, he's sort of like Sonic where he has no set-ups into his moves and he's a whole bag of tricks and gimmicks. The difference is with this ******* he kills you so early if you let him do it, and for a light-weight he refuses to die when he's suppose to. >=(

I guess I should be fair and say that SH Nair's are pretty hard to deal with, but at least there's only so much stage he can work with before he gets cornered/predictable, and if I didn't know better a quick Dash attack or a well-timed powershield -> grab could remedy that. Let me also not forget that if G&W hits your shield with a Dair it's punishable with FTilt/DA/possibly grab. If he Dairs above you on a platform, it seems like the best time to use UTilt.

Hope that helps.
 

~TBS~

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uh...olimar is weird. Everything Kinzer says holds true...its a weird mu. Either you **** or get *****. ASC does wonders at times if his pikmin arent being ducks. I tend to love bair in this mu, but im different than other sonics. @_@

Just follow what kinzer said, and you'll be fine. Dont keep running into him being the obvious thing to avoid.

Uh...quick question on snake again. If one is camping you out with nades and stuff, what should you do? i keep trying to hit him and ending up getting naded. :/
any tips?
 

Kinzer

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Different?

No, I think Bair is just sex against LOLimar, especially from a Spinshot. That leg will go through pikmin and it's like "h'aaaaaaah~!"

I've little experience against Snake.
 

Tesh

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As long as you don't hit into them, since VSDJ has a hitbox, wouldn't tossing a nade into you cause it to explode?

You can powershield the cooked ones and instant throw the others back to avoid grenade stripping.

grenade stripping isnt really as useful as i think you are making it out to be.

he can only do it when theres one out already and you grab it, which means it requires set up time.

its not as much that we cant use his grenades against him because he can do that, its more like we can use them against him but we have to keep that in mind sort of thing
Well yea, I wasn't suggesting that you can't fake him out. But unless you catch the first one really really fast, he can pull out another before it gets to you. Then it takes a couple of frames to make them both drop.
 

BSP

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LOLimar is probably the epitome of all things Gay in Brawl.
OFT.

You still have to put in one hundred times more effort than he does though just because he's a freaking fortress and you have to keep working around his defenses to poke him and make the most out of every assault. At least with this guy he does have blindspots, and they become even more apparent when he commits to an attack..
Yeah, Sonic's cleary disadvantaged. You gotta poke at him and hope to get him when he's open, then you have to hammer it on. ASC helps with this, but you get grabbed if you get predictable.

Bair is Sonic's safest aerial as usual, and it should at worst trade with Oli's aerials with pikmin, unless you're above him of course.

Sonic's best bet in this MU is to do his best to get around Oli's fortress of Pikmin with ASC, spaced FF'd SH bairs, and any other tricks you can think of. If you don't space well, it's a free grab for Oli. Once you get inside, grab him, and u throw to put him in the air (or use ASC to the same effect). Once you get him in the air, you gotta watch him carefully. Oli is kinda floaty, so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out where he's going. You can use sonic's speed to punish his landings, and put him back in the air, or you can chase with bairs and u airs, as long as you don't end up above him.

One last piece of info that will save you countless deaths, if you see Olimar Nairing you, SDI up/Away. For extra safety points, Spring. That USmash. :(
Good idea. His usmash is really good.

I'll talk about Gdubs later.
 

Tenki

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Uh...quick question on snake again. If one is camping you out with nades and stuff, what should you do? i keep trying to hit him and ending up getting naded. :/
any tips?
Depends.

Is he using neutral B's toss, or dropping/picking/throwing?

If he's doing the neutral B toss, you can try running towards him, but be wary because he can shieldgrab and roll.

If he's dropping first, then at least you don't have to worry about him grabbing (since he definitely needs to use a throw animation), but he might be able to jump, Z-drop and do something like a retreating N-air/D-air.

Sometimes if they're cooking nades and doing neutral B toss, you can try doing a SH ASC aimed to either go under a toss or cancel before hitting one.

Either way, I hope you're not charging down-B (unless you plan to SDJ). Running is the better approach x.x;
 

Kinzer

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Can't you just not be dumb with your SDR approach?

...Okay, I know that seems blasphemous, it's a SDR approach, which is kind of dumb to begin with; but unless Snake has his back turned towards you, couldn't you just time it so that after you hit Snake or his shield from a SDR you SDJ before you roll on top of the Grenade and blow yourself up?
 

da K.I.D.

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Something that is starting to upset me about this board.

Went you talk about matchups, alot of you (kinzer is the most prominent example) tend to disregard some moves and strategies entirely.

Saying that a spindash approach is stupid or a bad idea is annoying to me. Somethign that ive learned since the most recent wall that ive just broken through in my game, is that every move, trick, gimmick, and strategy that sonic mains have ever seen, used or implemented...


Works.

All of it. Cith combo? it works.
Anthinus combo? it works.
KID CG? it works.
bair to f smash? (shado combo?) it works.
Boxob up air spam? it works.
Land camping down smash? it works.

It all works, you just have to 1. find the right circumstance for it. and 2. not overspam it. Sonic has all the tools, its just up to us as the players to be good enough and knowledgable enough to take full advatage of ALL these options. No move is useless and no trick is too gimmicky. Sonic can make it work, im sure of it.
 

Kinzer

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Discard techniques?

Maybe I just don't remember or think about it at the moment I make the post, clearly I don't know everything Sonic has to offer. Have I ever gone out of my way to say that you shouldn't use every gimmick you have available to you to win? Perhaps I'd discourage against some at some points in a certain matchup, but if the opponent isn't expecting it to work why not use it against them if you have the opportunity? If that were the case, why play Sonic at all since the majority of his game is a bunch of tricks and pocket gimmicks? :(

That's the problem with this character... for me. Some things are more effective against certain players/characters in certain places/moments, it's not just something you can go auto-pilot and expect it to work all the time. It gets really mentally tiring after some time. :/ I'm not complaining though, it's all worthwhile when I get something beautiful going. Believe me when I say that, I haven't used in character in a Singles bracket except for Sonic for as long as I've been playing competitively. If I didn't want to work for my wins, I would've moved on to somebody else so long ago.
 

Espy Rose

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KID's such a great jokester.

That sounded like those serious posts on the Ganon boards.

"It's okay guys, we just need to be able to read our opponents 100% of the time! :D"
 

Browny

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lose the ownership titles over those combos and maybe ill take that post seriously KID

honestly ive never seen any other character board vain enough to title multiple STRINGS of attacks that are not reliable, after people who merely posted about them. its a little hard to claim to have discovered something as basic as uair spam lol
 

Joemama8

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Well, strictly speaking, if you spindash approached a snake with grenade in hand, then you should be smacked. You will hit the nade and realize that that was a poor decision. Also, spinning up to people really is not a good approach option in the first place. I don't think I really need to say why....

That being said, I did like the point of your post KID. If you have a gimmick or cheap trick and it works, abuse it until it stops working lol.
 

Kinzer

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I don't think I really need to say why.....
Apparently you do.

Ignoring that, I should've seen KID's post was trollbait. Since when did Boxob know how to spam any aerial that wasn't Back air? Lulz.

...

Yeah, I'm going to try to keep this somewhat relevant to the main discussion.

Can anybody give me some insight as to how to deal with a Falco? It would seem simple, powershield lasers, avoid the CG at all costs, watch out or that USmash at 110%, intercept his recovery; but I can't do that in practice 95% of the time. seems to me that I'm not the only one that has trouble with this feather-f** either, but Holy jeebus this matchup feels worse to me than does the Lucario/G&W/MK matchup; Id' rather fight those three (except maybe a good MK) any day of the week compared to Falco. :/
 

da K.I.D.

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lose the ownership titles over those combos and maybe ill take that post seriously KID

honestly ive never seen any other character board vain enough to title multiple STRINGS of attacks that are not reliable, after people who merely posted about them. its a little hard to claim to have discovered something as basic as uair spam lol
Ive also never seen a character board vain enough to actually do half the stupid crap we do. lol

like honestly, who would think to do SH up airs from across the stage as a means of conditioning.

But for the record, I was definitely the first one to perform or post about the up throw regrabs.

Well, strictly speaking, if you spindash approached a snake with grenade in hand, then you should be smacked.
You will hit the nade and realize that that was a poor decision. Also, spinning up to people really is not a good approach option in the first place. I don't think I really need to say why....

That being said, I did like the point of your post KID. If you have a gimmick or cheap trick and it works, abuse it until it stops working lol.

you sir are incorrect. spindash to fair on a snakes shield is currently my second most favored way to actually pick up nades, because it allows perfect timing and spacing to throw them back at him as you fall.

also, spindash is a fantastic approach when used properly because the number of options available to us out of it allows very little oppurtunity for punishment.

also, I did not say abuse one trick until it stops working. I said

Abuse Every Single Trick the character has.

You have to know everything, and you have to practice tirelessly. You have to know all 11 options available to you at any given time. (Im pretty sure you could give me almost any situation sonic could be in, and I could give you close to that many options for different things he could do.) dont ever be content and always be thinking of something new.
 

Espy Rose

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You have to know everything, and you have to practice tirelessly. You have to know all 11 options available to you at any given time. (Im pretty sure you could give me almost any situation sonic could be in, and I could give you close to that many options for different things he could do.) dont ever be content and always be thinking of something new.
Don't forget, you'll also have to know that 7 out of 11 of those options are worthless, 2 more are dangerous, 1 other is highly unlikely to work, and that the last one doesn't punish hard enough to justify it's usage.
 

da K.I.D.

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Dude, I dont even lose anymore.

Ive been ****** so hard recently, I even beat Cura in a set, sonic v ICs and sonic v MK.

and yesterday I was playing so well I made the snake/melee main around here quit out of a match. My game is so cash right now. for serious
 

Espy Rose

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Same. I really doubt any of that.
But only because it's you.
You understand.
 

Zatchiel

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I may be a Mario fan, but I think Sonic deserves better scores...
Not very helpful my good lad :(


But when it comes to Snake, when there is distance between us, remember, Snake has few options to cover said distance:
DACUS: Can be baited out and Shielgrabbed, or even FSmash when he's @ higher %'s.

Grenades: I'd normally go to the air, get up close, and ASC the shield and cancel out in a jump to Spring.Anything after the spring is acceptable, but be cautios of using Spring all the time; Dont get grab released near the edge.

Side+B: I dont think any Snake would use this move as is; The distance needed to punish Snake is far, but can be covered by an SDJ or Spinshot, so a Snake shouldnt use this on the ground, but mostly aerial

Close-Combat:

Snake is Slow, but very powerful on all his attacks.
First off, his Nair.Sidestepping it is NOT reccomended. Its obviously broken, so avoid at all costs. Its a normal tactic for Spacing, and when you are recovering from the ledge. 2 options.
1. Up close, Dont shield it; You'll just take a wasted shield and be pushed back farther. Dont Spotdodge; You'll probably get hit by the 2-3 hit of it, unless you get a successful powershield, on which, the 4th hit will take you back to the beginning of step one.

2. On the ledge:
Basically anything you do on the ledge will be mauled by that move:urg:, BUT, you still have options...
Springjump a edge fastfall and you should be behind Snake while he is stuck in the lag of his attack,DONT RUN UP TO HIM AT THIS TIME, YOU WILL GET FTILT'D OR BAIR'D!
You could wait the move out, but these are possible:

1.After his Nair you decide to jump from the ledge= Utilt or Uair ftw.
2.You decide to attack from the ledge= Shieldgrab or even another Nair results.
3.You want to roll the edge= SH Bair or chase to grab awaits.
4.You want to ledge hop and attack= Shieldgrab'd, or if the Snake has a keen eye, Stage Spike.
5.Meh, your cool and dont care wth happens, so you get up normaly= This is actally not very bright, as you could take another Nair right back off the ledge.
In the event you DO get caught by a Nair, SDI up&away and jump or Springjump if you have depleted your 2nd jump.

Ftilt: Its a quick, strong, 2-hit combo= Going to be used a lot...
DO NOT SHIELD IT OR TRY TO ROLL BEHIND IT, instead, Roll backwards and go for a Grounded Spinshot Bair, or just ASC.
Preferably, nothing Sonic has goes against this, and you could time a Grab correctly, but dont try Shieldgrabbing this move...
Utilt: 2 uses: To get the opponent Airborne, and to KO.
The latter is normally the best usage, so dont expect it much until higher %'s.
It has a HUGE disjoint; Its just BROKEN...

DSmash/Mine: Easy, no worry, just drop a Spring ^__^

FSmash: Snakes should not do this more than 2-3 times in a game.
It has horrible start-up and end lag, so be suprised if you see this attempted AT ALL.
Normally used with prediction; This isnt the kind of move that would just be a Sidestep→FSmash sort of move...
Snakes should rely heavily on Tilts, Aerials, Nades, and DACUS to get from place to place.
 

Tesh

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Well Lucas, for nair, you just have to understand how the move works to punish it. Short hop nair only does 3 kicks. Full hop does all 4 but still has landing lag. However, if he is in the air even slightly longer than a normal full hop (jumping from a platform or down a slope) it will autocancel.

The first 2 kicks don't really hit low enough to be a problem if you are already on the ground, you can quickly challenge him with uair and win if he jumps high enough for the autocancel.

If he doesn't autocancel it, you CAN shield it, and punish with a grab (drop your shield, move forward, grab him), ftilt, dtilt, dash attack.

Also isn't the correct way to escape nair to SDI behind him and in the opposite direction of his movement vertically? So down for rising nair, up for falling nair.
 

Zatchiel

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Well Lucas, for nair, you just have to understand how the move works to punish it. Short hop nair only does 3 kicks. Full hop does all 4 but still has landing lag. However, if he is in the air even slightly longer than a normal full hop (jumping from a platform or down a slope) it will autocancel.

The first 2 kicks don't really hit low enough to be a problem if you are already on the ground, you can quickly challenge him with uair and win if he jumps high enough for the autocancel.

If he doesn't autocancel it, you CAN shield it, and punish with a grab (drop your shield, move forward, grab him), ftilt, dtilt, dash attack.

Also isn't the correct way to escape nair to SDI behind him and in the opposite direction of his movement vertically? So down for rising nair, up for falling nair.
Ah, this is where i was confused.
I thought you'd be pushed too far back by the final hit(From a full hop), that you couldt shieldgrab, i didnt think about dropping it o_0
I gotta test that out.
As for the SDI, yes, i meant you were to SDI up and away from the attack (Mainly behind Snake, where the final hit doesnt score)
But thanks.
 

B.A.M.

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you can actually spindash approach a snake with a nade in their hand as long as u SDJ right before so u dont hit the nade. step yo spindash up. Fair doesnt hit the nade so its awesome. SHFFUairs are always **** good i dont care what any1 says. especially in this matchup and if u are good at spacing and following DI SHFFuair>utilt wins. whenever HA a snake out of cypher remember to wait for the next cypher and to always DI toward the stage. if u just auto-HA he'll cypher and ull miss. or hit him back to the stage. u can spindash land camp him if loves to b reverse land usmash goes through alot of his aerial options but tends to leave you open at times so reserve that against aggressive snakes. Eff that just SHFFUair. uthrow is awesome for damage and spacing fsmash always on his front side as he lands takes away alot of his options. I usually go for a bair kill anyways during this match up unless i got a solid conditioning setup on him. You just have to be careful in this matchup. We can juggle him all day ( imagine that) and own him off stage wherever he goes. If you dont have a safe read on him. run back. always be wary of the grab. with proper spindashing, ASC>DJ off shield and springing the side of the shield while using spring to retreat you can along with aerials prod snake fairly safely until u get him off his feet. we can pressure his *** to no end, as long as we space right. I seriously play this matchup almost like a bootleg MK v Snake. straightup. just know u need to stop. cuz otherwise snake is going to come through have have you at kill% with a couple decent reads. nades really dont stop us as much as they do meta though.

Lets talk MK matchup again. Espy says its 30:70 and its Sonics worst matchup. And im dying to hear why.
 

da K.I.D.

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because intelligent use of nado kind of destroys our character...

I mean, theres other factors too but thats the main one for me.
 

B.A.M.

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well i used to think the same, but i continued to work with tyrant and my other friend for a bit. And nado doesnt seem to phase me as much anymore. The moment they get nado happy we can FH OoS and or VSDJ. From those options we can either fffair into the nado or if they retreat HA always works. Just pull back with vsdj and read their reaction in nado. There is a certain range we can be with MK where nado simply takes too long to activate if we are going for followups. To me that is very important and the key with dealing with MK. We can still get some nice followups on him but we have to within a certain distance. either that or you can SDSC and read either attack with something that will beat out nado something quick OoS if he hasnt nado'ed yet (i believe nado is 10 frames activation time) or if u see a nado use DDP to space yourself a full hop or hold shield if its large enough. If we get hit by nado the first part if DIed helps either punish it with fffair, ffnair, DJ if u have one, or a long HA. We can also just AD to the ground if done right. If nado hits our shield we can punish every1. Dsmash, dash attack, fsmash on the lagless landing when uptilted, grab, ftilt, etc.

We also can ASC nados when spaced right which gets us some good damage. In this matchup we should always have a full shield. We can run away everytime when it gets low and we missed a punish. We can even space FH spring in front to punish the nado if they attempt to follow you and catch ur landing. While all these options seem dedicated to nado, alot of them aid you against a myriad of options. That is the key thing in my opinion as its the options he has ALONG with nado that is scary. Its seriously knowing the distance we can be and given that distance or mix up what options he has, more importantly, if he can nado in this situation.




The one of reasons I would love to discuss this matchup is because I for one love Espy's Sonic. However his playstyle in my honest opinion would get slaughtered by nado, which i believe is probably the case. Id love to see a vid of him against a top of the line MK to see this. I need to try to get a new vid up with tyrants MK all i have up is the old crap ones. But even in those there are a few moments that showcased what i was talking about regarding nado.

Straight up we stop the nado the matchup changes entirely. Obviously still his favor, but it seems doable. Ill tell u this much VSDJ and simply full hoping is a savior in this matchup. And not just for sonic; look at every1 who has defeated a top MK whose not a snake or diddy. even tho Falco can shoot nado FH is an awesome option same thing with Fox vs MK. u should always be able to bone out basically on reaction. O and AD into the ground when being juggled is stupid unless u got some appropriate distance with MK because if they uair we all know any competent MK gets a free aerial afterwards. You AD, you give them the option of an aerial and nado. Learn to DI that first hit of nado man! that thing is crucial.

Another thing is SHFFuairs. you buffer those all day, spaced properly even MK has a hard time getting thru that. Also if he Nadoes becuz of the disjoint you will not be sucked into the dumb move and you can wait to punish a landing. We should be playing a punishment game all day on MK. Know your frames, we can punish alot of things other characters dream of. And proper use of spindash actually does well against meta, and forces him to nado. Then we just be aware of our jump option from our spin dashes and we get into a nice spot.

Thats my 2 cents for now.

EDIT: People also talk about SHFFfairs and ftilt . we can use ftilt tilted up to punish, powershield grab,DA and ffbair to stifle anything coming after that landing. dtilt is nice too early percents to punish with so u can dtilt lock>grab, utilt,etc. Know the area of SL so you know whether you need to spring, footstool or whatever to get out of that zone. ALWAYS CHARGE YOUR **** SPINDASHES. Fully charged spindash actually gives us some priority and great speed at the cost of pressing b a few more times. so why the hell do ppl stop pressing b thinking theyre saving time then get smashed by some dumb move they couldve worst case scenario clanked with? and use the fact u can hold the **** thing. u can just wait for the MK to aerial like an idiot then release and punish. The speed on that thing is amazing, and at certain distances is very hard/impossible to punish on reaction. Showcase that to your opponent; let them bring that nado out. then just VSDJ and do business. O and i forgot to say VSDJ away > full charged SC is great for punishing retreating nados so do you dont have to worry about it being a bait. just wait till the end and let it go. its fast enough to make it during the lag. Dair camping is dumb and if they are doing it to work that shield just drop it and walk away lol. that fool isnt catching u. If u can get under them just uair that ish. When retreating from a spindash hitting shield, if u are to spring dont spring like a moron hit the appropriate side of the shield or ahead of them so they cant land camp ur dair. Be smart about it. O and dont be dumb and cry about dsmash>dsmash working cuz we can punish the first one in its lag. you just failed to.

Never force a kill, u can punish with nado lag with a kill move at times. shielding SL gives u a bair. If they love to glide back to the stage automatically we get a free HA near the blast zone for a kill at like 60-70. spindash>bair is always an option, utilt at times becomes one as well. following retreating nados then spacing fsmash works at times. catching them in a SDJ offstage> nair works. Dair a gliding MK works at times too. Juggling also helps too with dairing on the spring to uairs. Also if you fair through their glide attacks and Drill rushes they may be prompted to recover using nado in which they can do nothing but pull foward which means getting hit by a fsmash or them nadoing high which u punish with dsmash or bair i guess 2. Timing is tight but i have fsmashed a drill rush to the ledge as well. O and i almost got this on DSF i messed up the stupid fsmash somehow but springing the back of their head> dair> jablock>fsmash if they dont tech which happens sometimes lol.

If they arent letting up, just stop looking for the kill and go for straight damage then uthrow or some quick aerial (uair). I usually make this decision at 110-120. Its better to go that route in my opinion then fishing for kill moves then getting owned. Usually damage racking is easier at this point anyways cuz every1 is afraid of dying.

itd be nice if we all could compile instances in our own videos where certain techs worked in this match and we can go over their legitmacy. Sometimes its nice to have that visual aid.
 

Zatchiel

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Edit: Wrong thread is a wrong thread :p
 

Mariofan12

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Sonic should have a HUGE advantage over Bowser. Bowser is easily chaingrabbed, because of his large size, and also, because of his large size, he can easily be comboed.

BOWSER FOR LOW TIER!
 

Kinzer

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...We don't have a chaingrab on Bowser...

You silly goose.

I also thought Bowser was already borderline.
 

Mariofan12

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It's just that I don't like Bowser because he's kind of hard to KO due to his heavy weight. It's just my opinion. I am a Smash Rookie, of course. I've just started to learn about the characters.
 

Kinzer

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It gets even more problematic because Sonic can't really kill. They key is to play with his mind by constantly moving and canceling things until he makes an opening. Eventually he'll have to die. Just be sure not to get caught in anything yourself.
 

Kinzer

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That doesn't even work, for this reason alone. If you actually look, yeah Bowser doesn't much, if anything out of it, but anybody who knows about this (read: very few people who even bother...) will not make it easy to predict where they're going or what they'll do.

Bowser is not a bad matchup, but he ain't no pushover either. :/
 
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