Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[Kei_Takaro]

Thanks yami, I'm gonna have to try that next week though since we have saturday smashfests.
And **** I forgot my SD card in my friends house >.< = no brawl for a week

 

[cobaltblue]

Kinda a general question that may be too early to answer, but has any match ups changed in favor for sonic since B+? I know a lot of his match ups have gotten closer to 50:50 or 40:60.

 

[yami_sora]

Bowser is at least 60:40 in Sonic's favor. I'll ask Cape later what he feels are some other strong matchups for Sonic, but he told me that most of them are pretty close, Sonic don't have too many bad matchups, but he doesn't have great ones either. Stay away from Jigglypuff, Fox, Wolf, stuff like that.

 

[BadGuy]

Sonic struggles against kirby, jiggs, metaknight, space animals, luigi, zelda, and anyone else with long stalled out attacks. Other then that, sonic's speed and mind games can embarrass anyone who attempts to keep up with him.

 

[cobaltblue]

That big a swing on the Bowser match up? I recall in vB that match being listed as being pretty close or even. And with Bowser being one of the most buffed loved chars in B+ I'd of figure he'd gain an advantage.

 

[yami_sora]

I thought so too, but Cape and I ran the match several times and he showed me what to do to beat Bowser. The short answer is throw a lot. Throws and spring gimps are the key to beating Bowser.

 

[Veril]

I thought so too, but Cape and I ran the match several times and he showed me what to do to beat Bowser. The short answer is throw a lot. Bowser's up-B while on the ground hits twice for 20% and that's pretty annoying but [removed speculation]...

Please don't post about fixes that haven't been agreed on (or in this case even discussed much)

 

[yami_sora]

A misunderstanding on my part I apologize, the rest of my post remains true, beat Bowser out by grabbing him and comboing him in the air, and spring gimp him when he tries to recover. When you are both in the air though, just make sure you aren't underneath him for every long so you don't get butt stomped.

 

[HeroFalcon7]

Kei Takaro, you live near. Pm so we can get a brawl+ session going with ours grps.

 

[cobaltblue]

Spring gimping actually works on Bowser? Wouldn't fortress just eat it and keep on going? When it comes to gimping bowser I've had better results with nair due to the inability to knock bowser off at low angles.

 

[yami_sora]

The idea is to spring him before he has a chance to pull out his up B, it's just something you have to read.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Or you could just repeatedly sweetspot dair him out of his up B and get a nice easy edgehog at the end of it <_<. You could even sourspot dair->up B bair/nair him for essentially the same results (and with more leniency stage wise because you don't have to worry about dying on the bottom on smaller stages)

 

[BadGuy]

Bowser's weakness against sonic is being in the air, sonic's faster then bowser with his mid air attacks, and combo him into oblivion. That and sonic's speed makes it akward for bowser to connect any hits, making it risky to use big attacks such as forward smash or bowser bomb.

That being said, bowser can still be a scary foe for sonic, all bowser has to do is stand his ground and use up b to stop sonic in his tracks, tank crawl anticipated ariels, or force sonic to trade hits, considering priority dominates sonic. Control the ground area with bowser and sonic dominates the air, problem with being in the air...everyone has to land eventually.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Big characters make it easier for Sonic to air combo also uair being more effective, that would probably go to Bowser,DK,DDD and Charizard. Though sometimes from my experience, you have to hit them on the stunned window or else it will end up with Dedede using any of his aerials which is probably more effective in beating Sonic. Gotta keep watch for D3cides, that would end the match in a gay manner with you comboing your enemy into 120% while your untouched as 4%, a personal solution to that is wait for D3 to use his upB landing into the ground (not the ledge) take a double jump and intercept with dair shortly after he hits the floor

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Wow kinda dead of a thread, also OP hasn't visited for a while. ~.~

@yami_sora, thanks for the advice last week, I was able to beat D3 in Smashville.
Mostly I incorporated 40% more Nair fastfalls, crouch cancelled dtilts, some cc'ed dsmashes, dashdance fsmashes than last time, it did make me better =D

Here's a good string you can do at an unguarded D3 at 0%:
Dtilt>Dtilt>Uthrow>Usmash
(if no DI)
That should amount to a whopping 0 to 44% in a short time.
Also, you can follow up with a Uair if you can time it right.

I feel that we should have more active OPs, I'd nominate cobaltblue,yami_sora or Dark Sonic as the Sonic+ thread manager :D

 

[yami_sora]

Hey no problem I'm glad that it helped. If there are any other rough match-ups let me know and I'll see what advice I can come up with or drag out of Cape.

I think what this thread needs now is just solid discussion about all of Sonic's match-ups, good and bad. I don't know if we necessarily need a thread manager, but I'm flattered by the nomination. :3

So how do we want to do this? Do we want to just start with Mario and work our way down the roster or should we discuss first who we feel to be his best and worst match-ups?

As I said before, I don't think Sonic is a character you can play competitively all by himself, but then again, I feel that will hold true for a lot of characters. Maybe we could discuss good second characters for Sonic, characters that effectively counter Sonic's worst match-ups.

Just some suggestions for discussion, feel free to throw out any other ideas. But no more whining for buffs, we're past that now. If say six months from now Sonic is truly underrepresented and clearly in a disadvantageous situation, maybe then we can consider improving some of his aspects. Until then though, let's shift the discussion to strictly be about Sonic strategy.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

IMO we should lay the order down by weight division, On lights, I feel that the puffs and multijumpers have slight advantages against Sonic for having higher chances of escaping strings and small hitboxes.

@yami, np =D
I just wish Kojin, Espy or Tenki would play B+ and pitch in on discussion

Everyone else, Sonic's good to go, we don't need any more buffs as far as I'm concerned. If you ask me, there is always a workaround for every character

 

[cobaltblue]

I too am flattered by your words kei. Also glad you found a way to fight D3, I'll be sure to use those tactics as well (my dash canceling needs work).

Buff wise I think sonic is about where he needs to be also. Although I wouldn't be opposed to disjoint/longer invinciblity on nair. But less johnning and more match ups now.

Just a few matches off the top of my head (bare in mind these are all online matches). Feel free to correct as I'm still learning Sonic's finer points.

Ganon: I really think Ganon can wreck Sonic and is a cannadte for counter picking against. His fair will cut through any move you attempt to throw at him and thunder stomping can make grounded spin moves fatal. While sonic does have the advantage in that he can score a lot of damage in a combo against him, Ganon can match nearly three of Sonic's blows with just one of his (jab for example can ko sonic at around 110 near a ledge).

Its been my experience that smart Ganons will attempt to stand their ground and bait you to be hit by either a stomp or fair while the less experienced ones will attempt wiz kick or choke which can be countered by side b pretty easily. This whole match up imo is a real big battle of wits as sonic has to desperately get Ganon off stage for fair/spring gimps. I also think its one of the most changed match ups for sonic compared to vB.

Samus: This match too me at least is still largely the same. Down b will go under her super missiles, side b and nair timed right will cancel her super missiles, and I believe Sonic's spin dash depending on charge will also clank with homing ones. The difference now however is that she now has bombs to stop spin attacks in their tracks. However considering fighting her from a distance is a lesson in death, they aren't too bad to deal with. Pivot grabs are also a huge boon in this battle due to her slow reactions.

Zelda: Nerf her. J/K.

Zelda is straight up bait and punish by the books. Her fsmash will mess you up on hit and is nonpunishable on block, her upsmash was "nerfed" by moving the hit box lower to the ground. This simply results in her being unable to hit you from below while on most platforms but it also means she can cancel out grounded spin attacks. You should also never attack from above as upsmash blocks everything (I even hear there is a video running around where it ignores bomb-ombs).

Zelda also has a deadly throw going for her but outside of getting tripped by dtilt she'll have a very hard time landing it. Din's fire hasn't changed from vB except now she can use it to recover and dsmash is something to watch out for due to its kb but the angle it sends you at isn't horrible per say due to Sonic's great recovery options.

The best way I've found to beat Zelda as sonic is bait her slow moves, then go for a grab if possible, get her into the air, and combo. Her nair and neutral b can put a stop to these plans but a key thing to note about neutral b is that it doesn't protect from the top or bottom which allows for uair or nair action. Nair can be trouble but due to the hit box's its not impossible to hit her from below. Zelda's recovery can be predicted so interception or calculating where they'll appear is dependent on your gimp/edgeguard style.

Thats all for now, I hope this all helps someone.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Ah very nice list, Sonic may have a bit of an advantage on Zelda if it goes to Air Juggles, maybe try to keep her in the air for as long as possible?

Ganon might need to be spammed by downBs, try using Dsmash if ever you clank with Ganon, Spring is definitely needed, try to mixup throws that send him off the stage and deliver with a Spring
Personally, I do Spring THEN Dair back to the edge fast then repeat with Spring.
Ganon might possibly be unable to move if you perform an Fthrow to multiple hits of Fair (only IF the hitstun doesn't wear off)

I don't know much about Samus much :/

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I don't think Ganon is a hard counter. I play against a fairly good one frequently, and it really all comes down to who is playing smarter.

Sonic can dance around Ganon all day with his speed and ability to always have at least a few options for any given situation. He can't kill Ganon very fast unless he can juggle him offstage, but he racks damage fairly fast if the Ganon gets too predictable. However, Ganon's damage racking is also incredibly fast. Five good hits with any of his aerials and Sonic is nearing kill percentages. It doesn't help that Ganon kills insanely early as well.

His moves kill early, but you should be living to around 120% with good DI unless you screw up big.

Abuse his lack of pressure relief options from behind his shield. His jab covers in front of him amazingly well, but his only decent options from behind are rolling and spot dodging. Watch out for stomps and uairs, be aggressive in your edge guarding, and edge hog Ganon when he recovers low. Springs and edge hogging net me 80% of my kills against Ganon.

He doesn't quite wreck Sonic, but he'll make things tough for you if you aren't careful.

Zelda though...yeah, she hurts. xP

 

[yami_sora]

I don't think Ganon is a hard counter either. In fact, I think the matchup is in Sonic's favor, even if only barely. Ganon can be tough to get in on, but a good Sonic will incorporate a lot of dash dancing and crouch canceling to trick up Ganon. Ganon outranges Sonic with some of his moves but Sonic can combo the snot out of him. Then again, all Ganon has to do is hit Sonic once or twice to equal or surpass that combo damage. So like I said, it's a pretty close match. I think the one thing that puts a slight nod in Sonic's favor is the spring gimps. Ganon gets trashed by spring gimps, so abuse it whenever you can.

In an unrelated note, Cape has more or less completely fixed Sonic's up smash. After testing it out myself it's pretty fantastic. Assuming Veril and the rest of the WBR sign on to it (and if Veril doesn't Cape and I have our ways to convince him ) it will be a great move. Next time I see Cape I plan on giving him something really nice in return for fixing that move.

 

[cobaltblue]

Ganon: I wish we had some vids up then between good ganon and sonic players. The few matchs I've seen have been close at times but seem to imply that Ganon has more wiggle room to screw up then sonic.

Upsmash: This move was just buggy in general for this build or were the values not quite right when the spike aspect of it was added? Either way I hope the fix goes through without complaints. The spike is just too situational compared to its original ability to ko or set up for uairs.

 

[yami_sora]

No it's not going to be a spike, ever ever ever. It's supposed to be a kill move, and that's what it does. The problem with it in the current build is that characters fall out really easily, without any need for SDI or anything. This is true even in vBrawl, and was just a general problem with the move. This has fixed that so the final hit, the one you want to connect with, links better from the beginning hits.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Cobaltblue-well, having more wiggle room for mistakes doesn't mean that the matchup is necessarily in his favor. I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to say that both players should not be messing in a match with these two characters (and I mean technical error. Being mindgamed into stuff is a different matter).

Honestly, Ganon is not that hard to deal with. He does have considerable range, but at the same time his walls are still punishable. Whiffing a move with Ganon gives Sonic a free hit (not a GOOD hit, but you'd be surprised how many times you can just dash attack Ganon after his seemingly lagless moves), and with Sonic's ground speed it's not hard to make Ganon miss. If you happen to get that good hit (a dash canceled d-tilt, a grab, an aerial, ect) then Sonic can really just combo Ganon ALL DAY, with Ganon having no quick aerials either below or in front of him (basically, you can just stay in front of and under Ganon and he can't get down).

Then you get down to edgeguarding, where Ganon continues to get wrecked. Spring gimps make side Bing to the ledge basically not even an option, and his up B is not much better (sweetspot dair and watch him not recover <_<). He's lucky he's got that down B to get his jump back, cause that's really his best bet for getting back (and it's a decent option really, it's just that Sonic has no qualms being under Ganon ). Not to mention that sweetspot dair also happens to tie with Ganon's uair...meaning he dies and you don't <_<, so there's not much stopping you from just jumping off stage and nailing him after his down B.

Ganon's saving grace in this matchup is that HE HITS LIKE A TRUCK. While he can't really combo sonic, each hit does like 20% anyway (okay, SMALL exageration <_<). And he does happen to have a few quick kill moves to really wreck your day (down B, ftilt?, uair at higher percents, BAIR THE BANE OF YOUR EXISTANCE!) Many people say that he's got a good Zoning game too, but really I'm just not seeing it (mostly because I'm abusing Sonic's 3 frame dash attack to punish his low lag moves <_<. The hardest part is just getting the initial 30ish% so that weak dash attack is safe on hit ). Of course if you're trying to go for larger punishments, you're gonna just get stuffed out by his jab time and time again. Even worse, some players try to play range wars with Ganon (which just doesn't work). These things can really make it feel like Sonic gets *****, but perhaps it's just their personal style that does poorly?


Or maybe I just need to fight Ganons who aren't so predictable



I agree that Zelda is pretty much a hard counter though. Her upsmash is stupid (like, beat all of your attacks stupid), her d-smash is stupid, her up B is stupid for recovery, throws are stupid. Stupid character <_<. It's just so hard to deal with a Zelda that does nothing but stand there and wait for you to approach (not even spam din's. At least then you could punish her <_<). Yep, the only thing you can hope for is to bait a laggy move (something other than upsmash, cause that thing just has too much horizontal range to effectively punish. Most you get is a dash attack, an f-smash, or a tipped f-tilt or d-tilt. None of those are all that great <_<). Edgeguarding involves trying to hit her before her up B activates, or positioning yourself where you think she'll come out. If you don't get hit by the up B (which isn't THAT hard to avoid) you can get an f-smash, d-smash, or grab during the end lag to try to get her off stage again. Of course, now she probably won't need to up B again if she just DI's up, but at least she's above you.

When she's above you, you can really get some damage on her. However, you have to be careful with your spacing, cause she has some pretty fast aerials that REALLY hurt (wtf bair <_<) If you think she'll be out of hitstun before your move hits and you'll be within her range, simply BACK OFF and space yourself first. You want your hits to come from diagonally below her (basically, not right under her and not right in front of or behind her, avoid attacking from behind her if possible, since bair hit's surprisingly low 0_o).

Overall though, for Zelda I'd say....get a secondary <_<

 

[yami_sora]

Yeah, that's basically everything I said about Ganon in more detail. Ganon is totally beatable with Sonic, he has almost no options against a spring gimp.

As for Zelda, yeah, that matchup is pretty stupid. Just go to a big stage and run away a lot, it's really crappy and boring but Sonic pretty much gets torn apart by Zelda. Cape suggested trying to bait the upsmash and then hit her, but that's only going to work for so long against any decent Zelda player.

Honestly, it seems like you should just pick a different character. Go with Fox, Falco, Wolf, Falcon, any of those guys.

 

[cobaltblue]

No it's not going to be a spike, ever ever ever. It's supposed to be a kill move, and that's what it does. The problem with it in the current build is that characters fall out really easily, without any need for SDI or anything. This is true even in vBrawl, and was just a general problem with the move. This has fixed that so the final hit, the one you want to connect with, links better from the beginning hits.

Ok, that clears up my bewilderment on the move. I've gotten kos with that spike part of it before so I couldn't tell if it was intential or not.

DS: You really should play zeonstar online at the B+ chat if you don't mind online play and need a good Ganon. He is the best I've seen fight against better Sonic players than I and has pretty good mindgames to back it up.

Zelda: CPing is the safest bet here. I think characters that ko earlier (ganon, bowser) or anyone that can force approaches wrecks her.

Anyways lets throw another character into the discussion mix.

Wario: I've only been able to fight him a few times but all against a guy who was learning (he just figured out bite was good after 20+ games with him so you may want to take what I say with a grain of salt.) Anyways the Wario match up seems to be near the same as it was in vB. His bite can beat out a lot of your moves but can be punished easily for a smart sonic player. His short hopped nair while annoying can be countered by tilts, fair, nair, or countered with grab (not sure with this option).

He is still a pain in the *** to attempt to gimp but the job is alot easier if you can keep him away from his bike should he be foolish enough to leave it on stage. And thats about where my experience ends against him. As the way I deal with his other tactics I can't imagen a more experienced wario player even thinking of doing.

Captain Falcon: The former king of speed. Out of the Falcons I've played and seen they seem to fall into two camps: those who knee happy and those that realize falcon has more than one move. Take a guess as to which is more deadly. Falcon's love getting you in the air, they love when you attempt to di away, and most importantly they love when you eat their knee and go flying to your death. Decent Falcons will attempt to get you in the air by applying SH nairs on the ground with the occasional knee to mix it up and then run or jab wall you to create space should they miss or come into contact with your shield.

This match up therefore plays similar to a ganon match only you have to realize that Falcon is fast enough to punish you if he reads your tech correctly, (slightly) harder to gimp, and will focus mainly on getting you into the air comboing. Even if he can't land a knee his uair can still pose a threat by either juggling at early percents or koing at high ones near the edge. Sonic however has the advantage on falcon here in that spring gets you out of nearly any air string falcon can make, while SH nairs will beat out most of your moves baiting and punishing it by proper spacing is easy with sonic's speed. Falcon's grab game can't match ours but does allow him to get some set ups in when he does land one.

Overall for Sonic I think his key to victory is mixing in mid range and long range tactics. Close range ASCs and ASCs to shield can throw off falcon's rhythm and lead to a nice string of combos. Like ganon spring will wreck his world and force him to attempt to recover high by raptor boost in an effort to gain height by bouncing off of it. I find falcon kick harder to time a side b against correctly but on the other hand getting hit by it is pretty **** hard unless he reads your roll correctly when you get up from a knockdown. Rolling around Falcon is not recommend, as his dsmash will punish you if he sees it coming. Better to spring or even retreating fair than risk that. Finally all I can say is keep near the ground and out pacing him should come easily enough. This fight plays out nearly the same as the vB match so all of those tactics will still work for the most part.



Come on guys we need more character match ups here. I'm no Sonic guru .

 

[Bandit]

Yeah, that's basically everything I said about Ganon in more detail. Ganon is totally beatable with Sonic, he has almost no options against a spring gimp.

As for Zelda, yeah, that matchup is pretty stupid. Just go to a big stage and run away a lot, it's really crappy and boring but Sonic pretty much gets torn apart by Zelda. Cape suggested trying to bait the upsmash and then hit her, but that's only going to work for so long against any decent Zelda player.

Honestly, it seems like you should just pick a different character. Go with Fox, Falco, Wolf, Falcon, any of those guys.

Emphasized the right pick for you. Falcon she is hard on, Fox is sorta even, Falco sorta even, but Wolf. Screw that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

DS: You really should play zeonstar online at the B+ chat if you don't mind online play and need a good Ganon. He is the best I've seen fight against better Sonic players than I and has pretty good mindgames to back it up.

Well, I personally believe that matchups completely change when playing online. Reactionary punishes are much harder to pull off online (which is 90% of punishments against Ganon really <_<). I also have a personal vendetta against online play anyway because the vast majority of my game involves not committing until I'm fairly sure my plan will work. That means I don't go for combos unless it looks like I'm in a favorable position, I don't go for certain edgeguards if it looks like my opponent is waiting for me so he can get around it, I change my recovery tactics based on whether or not my opponent is doing a shorthop on the stage, going for an off stage edgeguard, or just sitting at the ledge, ect, ect.

I might play online every now and then, but I really want to avoid basing ANYTHING off of online play as much as possible.

Zelda: CPing is the safest bet here. I think characters that ko earlier (ganon, bowser) or anyone that can force approaches wrecks her.

Ditto <_<. Marth is a fun choice too, cause really she just can't get in on him and can't camp him herself.

Wario

No comment since I haven't fought any <_<

Falcon

The falcon matchup actually seems even easier than the vbrawl matchup really. Nair really isn't even an issue for Sonic, who can just run away to avoid it with no negative consequences whatsoever. And if you don't feel like running away, you can always side B through it if they like to space themselves to only hit with the second hit. If they're foolish enough to go for a nair on top of you, they'll just be eating uair or nair ALL DAY.

However, if Falcon DOES get a hit, he has a lot of good combos on Sonic (Sonic is actually a good weight for Falcon to combo. Strings don't work on Sonic because of up B, but Falcon has plenty of things he can do while you're in hitstun.) Tech chases on Sonic are not particularly hard either. Because Sonic lacks a fast, high priority ground option, Falcon has a lot of leniency on the timing for his tech chases (the best Sonic can do is....shield, which Falcon doesn't care about). This carries over into Sonic having poor OoS options other than SH uair, so Falcon can really pressure Sonic once he catches him. On the flip side, Sonic is not only hard to catch, but also gets high rewards every time he counterattacks Falcon (which is not that hard to do). Falcon is pure combo bait, eating uair and fair strings all day. You even get to do some creative stuff like sourspot bair, going from air combos to ground combos, comboing into grabs, you can even combo into smashes against this guy. And with Sonic's combos having the nasty habit of ending with the opponent off stage....Falcon is a sad, sad man. Edgeguarding once again comes down to up B springs and sweetspot dairs. Oh, and don't worry if your dair doesn't sweetspot, just reverse up B and bair him (it combos <_<). Falcon doesn't get his jump back from his down B, so you don't have to worry so much about sending him high anyway.

MOAR MATCHUPS

Falco-man I HATE this character. If lasers and uptilt weren't bad enough, this guy has a near unpunishable JAB, a shine that leads to combos, and aerials that last forever and STILL beat ours. Yes Sonic can chaingrab him, combo him forever, and edgeguard him like no tomorrow, but without a solid OoS option or a good answer for the attacks mentioned above, you really don't get to do that much. Really, you've just gotta pull some mindgames out of your *** (like dairing right above his uptilt or something) to have any chance in this matchup. Sonic has a FEW counter measures for a spammy Falco through.

1. Avoid platform levels-while you may think platforms will help you get around lasers, it's not the lasers themselves that really hurt Sonic. They just force him to approach, what really matters is Falco's walling game, which only get stronger when you give him platforms to sit under. Flat levels are better because you have more angles to come at Falco at, as well as having more guranteed combos to pull of when you do land a hit.

2. Abuse dash attack and DACUS- dash attack may not seem like much, but really it's just to try to catch Falco off guard. It also gets you close to Falco with a frame advantage, which is always a good thing. DACUS works because it's just good in general <_<. What's not to like about an invincible attack that comes at you from halfway across the stage? So much for Falco's aerials right? (though lasers and shine eat through this anyway. GOD I hate Falco <_<)

3. Learn to edgeguard like a pro -seriously though, you CANNOT miss edgeguards against this guy. Follow him down and nair him if you see him side B (it's possible <_<), or leave a spring in side B's path if you're not comfortable with reacting to his recovery. Edgeguarding his up B shouldn't even need an explanation.

4. Always tech. With Falco having the ability to force a getup from halfway across the stage (lol laser resets), as well as having tech chases that work when you don't tech anyway, there's really no reason to ever not tech. It's simply not an option.

5. Learn to tech chase-Because of Falco's fall speed, he'll be forced to tech A LOT. Take advantage of this to extend combos and lead to edgeguards. Don't let Falco re-establish his zoning game.

well, that's all the advice I can really think of right now. But I normally just pull out a secondary for Falco (even though Pit may not be the best choice . I still prefer this matchup for some reason though)

 

[yami_sora]

Haha yeah I can imagine Wolf being tough for Zelda. But if it's any consolation Bandit I don't think the Wolf v. Sonic matchup is very good for Sonic either. That down-b in the air is dumb. =p

Cobalt if you want to play a good Wario just come to my room. =p
My roommate OBM is a beast with Wario and usually takes me out without too much effort, but then again he's just all around better than I am at the game. If you are fighting a bite happy Wario you can try to spin charge or dash towards them and rather than running into the bite do a short hop dair and it will always beat the bite as long as you get past his big stupid mouth.

You have some good matchup information listed, I have some ideas myself as to matchup advice and I'll talk some stuff over with OBM and Cape with regards to Sonic matchups and try to combine what information I come up with between the three of us. OBM has had a ton of experience playing against my Sonic so if you play him anything like I do the information will be relevant.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

What are some of Sonic's good match ups? Out of curiosity.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Falcon, Ganon (or even), Ivysuar (???), Charizard, DDD (now that bair is not stupid ) Yoshi (I think).

But don't worry, Sonic doesn't have many advantageous matchups, but he doesn't really get ***** either (except Zelda and Falco. **** those two). Sometimes it's just easier to have a secondary.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I love Sonic. Mained him forever in vBrawl. And I'm thinking about picking him up in Brawl+. I already play some other characters but man it's Sonic.

 

[yami_sora]

You should definitely play Sonic in + if you liked him in vBrawl. OBM and I feel he has vastly improved. Plus it's always nice to have more MA Sonic+ mains. :3

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Probably won't main him, unless it's an accident like with Falcon. Where I just played him so much in friendlies(I don't want to 0-Death new players with Jiggs, I think it scares them off and initial reactions when you don't know Jiggs is that she's broken and such) so I played a ton of Falcon and practically main him now.

But I Sonic will be fun, so there's a chance of it.

 

[BadGuy]

Sonic makes a good 2nd. Because of his unpredictable and totally unexpected play style, he a good character to rely on when in a pinch.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Ahh if I know any cheapgood matchups its Marth XD

I dunno why, I always trick my friend into going near the edge at 0%, then I follow up with a Dthrow away from FD, a dash and fair drop, then finally a spring for a kill (but I think they wont be able to escape at all XD)

Falcon, i think it's at 60-40 in favor of Sonic overall, Sonic should be more campy and defensive, I'm sure of it. Sonic should use spins more since they tend to clank easily. If a Falcon chases you, you can run back and perform a SH bair, if he misses the tech, follow up with a dtilt, try to edgeguard melee style by just waiting for him tn reco ver and you dtilt near the edge. Alternatively, you can just use a spring gimp. Being aggressive off stage is very risky, with his up B, knee and side B

 

[Plum]

Sonic makes a good 2nd. Because of his unpredictable and totally unexpected play style, he a good character to rely on when in a pinch.

I'm sure a lot of players never figured out how to remotely fight a Sonic because it was pointless to learn the matchup in vBrawl. I'm sure that's the case for a lot of players out there. ._.

Sonic's going to have an easier time against DDD with Bair walls nerfed, but DDD still has a lot over him. His huge weight, gimping game, kill power, recovery, and he can outrange Sonic in most situations. Sonic does have some surprising range, and can compete with DDD in range depending on the situation. I don't know if Sonic can still escape inhale release combos but iirc he could spring out of an inhale release before DDD could hit him. Though the higher stun could mean that DDD has a guaranteed Utilt out of an inhale on Sonic, that's something to look into I suppose. If he does... that's guaranteed kills and combos off of inhale, and abusing inhale's grab armor is great against characters with less than stellar priority.

 

[The Cape]

So this is what I suggested. See what happens:

Sonic:

- First jab all hits to 4B KBG from 64
- Second jab all hits to size 5 and 4B KBG from 64

- Usmash:
- First hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 89 degrees, and 75 BKB
- Second hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 90 degrees, and 76 BKB
- Added hitbox the frame after the previous two end:
- Duration 2 frames
- 260 degree angle, 35 BKB, Size 6, placed on the neck
- Time between final launching hitbox and repeating hitboxes changed to 5 frames from 7 (to compensate for the new hitbox)
- Looping hitboxes changed to 365 angle

Uair:
- First four hitboxes to .7 hitlag and SDI from 1x
- First four hitboxes to 75 KBG from 100

U throw:
- 96 angle from 100
- 60 KBG from 70
- 85 BKB from 65

D throw:
- 35 angle from 20

 

[Isatis]

So this is what I suggested. See what happens:

Sonic:

- First jab all hits to 4B KBG from 64
- Second jab all hits to size 5 and 4B KBG from 64

- Usmash:
- First hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 89 degrees, and 75 BKB
- Second hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 90 degrees, and 76 BKB
- Added hitbox the frame after the previous two end:
- Duration 2 frames
- 260 degree angle, 35 BKB, Size 6, placed on the neck
- Time between final launching hitbox and repeating hitboxes changed to 5 frames from 7 (to compensate for the new hitbox)
- Looping hitboxes changed to 365 angle

Uair:
- First four hitboxes to .7 hitlag and SDI from 1x
- First four hitboxes to 75 KBG from 100

U throw:
- 96 angle from 100
- 60 KBG from 70
- 85 BKB from 65

D throw:
- 35 angle from 20

ALL HAIL THE CAPE!

Trust me, these fixes will benefit Sonic more so than ever. xD

 

[yami_sora]

You guys had better appreciate all the things I did to Cape to get these changes made. I only had a small window since he only stayed with me for a couple of days so I had to make my move fast. How many other people here would be willing to trade their bodies for Sonic fixes? Just me.

Anyways, I tried out this build that he's describing and it's much much better. I really hope it gets accepted as official.