Sonic Vs. Pit - Matchup discussion export.

[Kinzer]

Hey there fellas, Kinzer the Hedgehog here, making an announcement thread for ya.

The Sonic boards have reached character number 24 on our matchup list A.K.A. Pit A.K.A. Kid Icarus.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510

That's the master thread, please feel free to either bring the discussion there or here.

I know this is bland, and I'll probably get yelled at by the other Sonic mainers to add some stuff in here, but as of when this thread is created, it's 8 in the morning and I have yet to go to sleep. I'll put in here whatever is necessary if people remind me to do so, but I seriously should get some sleep.

Please discuss away.

 

[Chis]

And please have some experience fighting a good Sonic.

And none of this zero priority/light/no killing power etc nonsense thank you.

 

[ROOOOY!]

After it before on their write-up saying that Sonic has no priority so is no problem at all, I took it upon myself to help out.
From here, it's about 5 pages long.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174796&page=25

Agreed neutral.

 

[Rogue Pit]

Lately ive been playing not so good sonics. I powershield their spin attack and uair out of shield.
Angle all arrows downward. DI right, dont get hit by fsmash or dsmash and CP rainbow cruise.
I'll say the rest later.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lately ive been playing not so good sonics. I powershield their spin attack and uair out of shield.
Angle all arrows downward. DI right, dont get hit by fsmash or dsmash and CP rainbow cruise.
I'll say the rest later.

If they aren't good don't bother mentioning them since it won't be as accurate as needed.
Is it online btw?


Anyway I would have to say its around 50:50.
The main reason being that Sonic has a good a amount of tools to pressure Pit and zone him. Ftilt is an extremely good move for the matchup that really works well in dealing with Pit on the ground because of its great range.

Of course once things go into the air Sonic really has an issue dealing with Pit. Primarily because of Pit's priority which makes taking Pit head to head in the air a silly endeavor.
However Sonic is capable of circumventing that issue because Pit's attack boxes are rather narrow (excluding his Nair and Dair) so he can use his his speed in order to deal with it.

Edge guarding isn't really an issue for Sonic primarily because of all his options though the arrows can be an annoyance and can tack on damage well.

Pit has better killing moves than Sonic of course. They are much faster than Sonic's and can e followed up with after a jab.

I can't come up with a ratio though primarily because I haven't faced any good Pits offline and using online data really isn't a good idea.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Neutral it is, we did discuss this a long time ago, and it took a while with some scrubbish "inexperienced" Sonics (i mean the ones that dont contribute good info) but its 50-50 even.

 

[Chis]

Is posts without insulting people to much to ask? Thank you.

 

[Coffee™]

Again Chis......

 

[Jim Morrison]

Neutral it is, we did discuss this a long time ago, and it took a while with some scrubbish "inexperienced" Sonics (i mean the ones that dont contribute good info) but its 50-50 even.

Your old write-up was terrible, no offence.

 

[Chis]

Again Chis......

Edit your post. You'll get a sig infraction.

 

[Kinzer]

LOL at the irony of that post.

But no seriously, it looks like I missed something a long time ago.

 

[Camalange]

LOL at the irony of that post.

But no seriously, it looks like I missed something a long time ago.

Be glad you missed it. Terrible write up is terrible.

 

[Kinzer]

Isn't this why we are revisiting this matchup in that case?

ShadowLink said it in the most TL:DR version possible, Pit has poor range on a lot of his attacks, Sonic has speed by about as much range as Pit, but Pit has more killing power to make up for that, which is the equivilent of our speed, both won't usually be getting gimped or be gimping, and a lot of things Pit has on other characters like the arrow spam, aren't as effective as Sonic, so it's 50-50.

Long run-on sentence is long.

How about we talk counterpicks?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Chis got ***** when I rectified the old write-up while everybody was pole-jocking me.
I found it pretty funny.

General consensus was 50:50. I said 55:45 at the time, but I put my hands up to a little bias there, not that it matters because even that is still neutral.

Conclusion was Sonic outranged Pit's ground game, while Pit beat Sonic in the air. Pit killed a little bit earlier, but was gimpable somewhat.

Stage discussion would be good.

 

[Coffee™]

Can we move on. I don't want a bunch of arrogant Pit mainers with their heads far up their *** in here.

Hehe <3 Chis.

On topic I play a pretty decent Sonic fairly regularly now. Arrows aren't really as useful here as they are in other matchups but they still help a bit in limiting certain approaches and building up damage. This may seem a bit biased but I find that Sonic gets into a fair amount trouble when having to deal with Pits Dair which contrary to SL's post has a pretty wide range beneath it. I might post some vids a bit later to help with the matchup.

Conclusion was Sonic outranged Pit's ground game

Also, correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't Sonic only outrange Pit on the ground with his Ftilt and Shutter Stepped Fsmash?

 

[Kinzer]

True, but whose to say we won't just fake out our approaches, bait an attack out fo you, and punish from there for example?

Really, Sonic's priority issues are so April.

 

[Phaigne]

That's more commenting on play style, rather than specific character traits, so it is a null argument.

 

[Kinzer]

I know... Sonic is really bad on paper...

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonic is bad on paper, Pit has arrows and a good recovery, Sonic has terrible priority, 70:30. That seems like a good write-up.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

It depends. If both players know what they are doing, Pit would have the advantage based on priority, range and such. When I versed my first good Sonic Match, I got beaten easily because of match inexperience since most Sonic's I versed were very spammy with their B attack... However, after looking at the match, I saw all sorts of things I could do to counter that Sonic's seemingly endless approaches. There aren't many good Sonics out there just as there aren't many good Pits so making a ratio out of this may be hard...

 

[ROOOOY!]

It depends. If both players know what they are doing, Pit would have the advantage based on priority, range and such. When I versed my first good Sonic Match, I got beaten easily because of match inexperience since most Sonic's I versed were very spammy with their B attack... However, after looking at the match, I saw all sorts of things I could do to counter that Sonic's seemingly endless approaches. There aren't many good Sonics out there just as there aren't many good Pits so making a ratio out of this may be hard...

igcdvgkiliobgliodgxvfkjdsBSGSKJ

I'm guessing this was online?
And that the Sonic player was terrible.
B attack should never be spammed, it's the worst attack Sonic has got, and one of the worst in Brawl altogether.
If there are any European Pit's, or American ones with great connections, then I'll play Sonic against them.


No matter the results, the match-up is still 50:50 to me, and nothing will change my mind unless some sort of chaingrab was found against Sonic til killing percent or something dumb like that. The main aim is to show you less Sonically educated guys what he's actually capable of.

 

[Coffee™]

If there are any European Pit's, or American ones with great connections, then I'll play Sonic against them.

My connection is generally pretty good, send me a pm and we'll play sometime.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

igcdvgkiliobgliodgxvfkjdsBSGSKJ

I'm guessing this was online?
And that the Sonic player was terrible.
B attack should never be spammed, it's the worst attack Sonic has got, and one of the worst in Brawl altogether.
If there are any European Pit's, or American ones with great connections, then I'll play Sonic against them.


No matter the results, the match-up is still 50:50 to me, and nothing will change my mind unless some sort of chaingrab was found against Sonic til killing percent or something dumb like that. The main aim is to show you less Sonically educated guys what he's actually capable of.

I am saying that the one I was versing was much smarter than the ones that I usually versed who spammed B, not saying that the one I versed spammed B...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Ah, fair enough.

And Maniac, I should be free anytime wednesday, just PM me when you're ready, I'll probably be on the boards most of the day. No college on wednesdays is 2 gewd.

 

[Kinzer]

Still, Sonic... & Pit... having range on their attacks...?

This is not Heaven on a forum, thisis not Sparta, but where am I?

No matter how you look at it, unless one comes up with some kind of fancy tech, it's about as close to even as you would get without having to play a ditto. Soembody comvince me otherwise.

One more thing, priority is such a dumb word in the Sonic boards' vocabulary, range is understandable, but no.

This isn't April.

Trufax.

 

[Tenki]

Priority (and attack speed to go along with it, of course) is still important though.

For the character on the defensive, if you have priority, it means you have more defensive options, since you can beat your opponent's attacks instead of relying on shield-based moves.

If Sonic decides to be stupid and tries to approach with a grounded spin charge (down-B, doesn't hop), Pit can just shorthop D-air to beat it.

If Sonic tries to approach with an aerial not named U-air or B-air, Pit's N-air/U-air can beat it if he's on the defensive.

Sonic's moves tend to get beaten out so if he's on the defensive, he tends to have to rely on shield-based defenses (lol online is FUN when you're getting hit by 75% more moves than you should be <__<), and it actually works out pretty well for him because his movement speed/running shield can screw up spacing, and attacks with low shield stun/push tend to make it easier for him to get grabs, and grabs are a great way to get around priority issues.

That's more commenting on play style, rather than specific character traits, so it is a null argument.

Well, I'll ask these questions.

How safe is Pit on shield?
How punishable is Pit overall?

 

[ShadowLink84]

On topic I play a pretty decent Sonic fairly regularly now. Arrows aren't really as useful here as they are in other matchups but they still help a bit in limiting certain approaches and building up damage. This may seem a bit biased but I find that Sonic gets into a fair amount trouble when having to deal with Pits Dair which contrary to SL's post has a pretty wide range beneath it. I might post some vids a bit later to help with the matchup

However Sonic is capable of circumventing that issue because Pit's attack boxes are rather narrow (excluding his Nair and Dair)

Also, correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't Sonic only outrange Pit on the ground with his Ftilt and Shutter Stepped Fsmash?

Well let us compare on a move by move basis.
Ground move taime!
Sonic's Ftilt>>pit's Ftilt
Sonic's Dtilt>Pit's Dtilt (may be an error on my part there)
Sonic's Utilt=Pit's Utilt
Sonic's Fsmash (non stutterstepped=Pit's Fsmash
Sonic's Usmash=Pit's Usmash (based on disjointed hitboxes)
Sonic's Dsmash>Pit's Dsmash
Sonic's jab=Pit's jab.

AERIAL TAIME!
Pit's Fair=Sonics Fair
Pit's Uair<Sonic's Uair
Pit's Bair<Sonic's Bair
Pit's Dair>Sonic's Dair
Pit's Nair>Sonic's Nair


In general Sonic outranges him with at least 1 more move (not counting stutterstepped Fsmash).
I guess you can count hypen smashes but its not like it matters much.

They are pretty split but whenever Sonic outranges Pit, its by a larger degree than when put outranges Sonic.


I find Pit's Dair isn't much of an issue because Sonic shouldn't be approaching with direct spincharges in any matchup (barring a few).
In general you'll deal with spinshots which send Sonic through the air faster than any character (eat that yoshi!) and cancels.

Arrows are good for baiting and limiting because its an excellent way of getting Sonic to approach without giving him as much of a chance to control spacing.
I had played Rogue Pit the other day on wifi and arrows work well in limiting the opponent. they won't do much in racking damage but they are good at helping Pit pressure the opponent so that they cannot zone him.
Its just an issue since Pit can't use many.

Now I have a question. What is the purpose of arrow looping> Every time I see a Pit use it against me as pretty much any character it really doesn't cause me any issue at all.

 

[Coffee™]

And Maniac, I should be free anytime wednesday, just PM me when you're ready, I'll probably be on the boards most of the day. No college on wednesdays is 2 gewd.

Lucky you >_>

I've got class till about 5 that day so sometime afterwards so be fine if your available.

Well let us compare on a move by move basis.
Ground move taime!
Sonic's Ftilt>>pit's Ftilt
Sonic's Dtilt>Pit's Dtilt (may be an error on my part there)
Sonic's Utilt=Pit's Utilt
Sonic's Fsmash (non stutterstepped=Pit's Fsmash
Sonic's Usmash=Pit's Usmash (based on disjointed hitboxes)
Sonic's Dsmash>Pit's Dsmash
Sonic's jab=Pit's jab.

AERIAL TAIME!
Pit's Fair=Sonics Fair
Pit's Uair<Sonic's Uair
Pit's Bair<Sonic's Bair
Pit's Dair>Sonic's Dair
Pit's Nair>Sonic's Nair

Personally I think this kind of comparison is wierd, but either way some of your points are wrong here. I just tested each move here in training mode just now and there are some differences to what you actually have listed here. I'll just use the same format to make things simple and bold the differences.

Sonic's Ftilt < Pit's Ftilt
Sonic's Dtilt < Pit's Dtilt
Sonic's Utilt > Pit's Utilt
Sonic's Fsmash non stutterstepped = Pit's Fsmash
Sonic's Usmash < Pit's Usmash (Pits Usmash has a bit more range on its first hitbox)
Sonic's Dsmash >> Pit's Dsmash (lol)
Sonic's jab < Pit's jab.

Pit's Fair > Sonics Fair
Pit's Uair < Sonic's Uair
Pit's Bair < Sonic's Bair
Pit's Dair > Sonic's Dair
Pit's Nair > Sonic's Nair

In general Sonic outranges him with at least 1 more move (not counting stutterstepped Fsmash).

You can go and test them for yourself if you need to confirm what I've changed but for the most part Pit actually outranges Sonic on their comparative moves.

Now I have a question. What is the purpose of arrow looping> Every time I see a Pit use it against me as pretty much any character it really doesn't cause me any issue at all.

It's just useful as a mindgame. If the arrow is looped properly and Pit is close to the opponent, then the opponent is immediately placed in a disadvantaged situation. They can shield the arrow and be grabbed, roll away and be punished afterwards, same applies for a side step...etc

 

[Ryos4]

Idk i would have to say pit has a slight advantage at least. I've been told by many people that the guy Boku is one of the top sonic players (online). I have to admit his sonic is so defensively sound that it takes forever to kill him and even hurt him. When i fought him as toon link, the hardest time getting my hands on him at all, and ended up losing both times i tried against him. Even though some people see my toon link as a better main for me then pit. However, when i fought him with pit, i was able to consistently 2 stock him, even though the 3 stock matches would take like 6-10 mins to finish.

Example of his fighting style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66qwhiyf6Wc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qyjzwofDa8

As you can see he has a very repetitive style. But its a fairly safe way to fight as to he barely has time to get hit. It slowly weakens opponents by them just screwing up from time to time. It wasnt pits arrows either. I almost had no time to shoot or aim any arrows. No real AT usage against him aside from a glide shift every now and then. My main strat against him for both my characters were to shield his spin dash and chase him with aerials. However, only pit and his multi jumps and his up air was able to counter spin dash>uair>Spring Jump>Dair>Smash. Pit has range, power, and priority against sonic, and pits weight and floatyness also seems to make hiim really hard to string attacks with sonic effectively. Pits recovery seems to mess with sonics edge guarding style too.

I also think pits Nair is better then sonics. Combined with pits aerial style, his dtilt is much better for him then sonic's dtilt. I also find arrow loops somewhat useful, best way to finish off the top kills rather then a straight shot. And when both the opponent and arrow is offstage, they wont know when or if they have to dodge, and thus screwing up their recovery, stuff like gliding or stuff that needs to be charged. Its just much harder to judge where its coming from. Ive also had a few arrow shots away from them, giving them a false sense of security while i was looping it and they got close and was attempting to smash me. Arrow swoops in from behind stuns them and then they got fsmashed for the kill.

IDK it just seems to me like sonic has a disadvantage.

 

[yummynbeefy]

the mirror sheild straight-up ***** sonics spin dash attacks and also pit has quite a bit more ko power than him in competitive play id say a 60-40 edge pit

 

[Tenki]

Example of his fighting style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66qwhiyf6Wc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qyjzwofDa8

...

IDK it just seems to me like sonic has a disadvantage.

...no wonder >_>

the mirror sheild straight-up ***** sonics spin dash attacks and also pit has quite a bit more ko power than him in competitive play id say a 60-40 edge pit

spindash shouldn't be used as a direct approach (to hit you when you're still capable of shielding/dodging) unless it's to bait out a specific wanted reaction like if you're spotdodge or roll happy.

rolling to the edge and charging spindashes for direct approaches when you're just standing there isn't... very smart.

 

[yummynbeefy]

...no wonder >_>



spindash shouldn't be used as a direct approach (to hit you when you're still capable of shielding/dodging) unless it's to bait out a specific wanted reaction like if you're spotdodge or roll happy.

rolling to the edge and charging spindashes for direct approaches when you're just standing there isn't... very smart.

well every sonic ive played my ive had to use my mirror sheild for the spin dash jump combo thing

maebe i just dont know any good sonics

 

[ROOOOY!]

maebe i just dont know any good sonics

Thissss. ^^

Mirror Shield is not a problem.
Hell, if I start up a Spindash, and you throw a Mirror Shield out before I release, I'll just spinshot over you for a bair where you're not protected.

 

[versat16]

who forgot Super Sonic I was thinking about it


lol