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Specific Character/Scenario Matchup Assistance

Rogue Pit

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
1,081
Location
Philadelphia, Pa
To spark up some new help and discussion in the Pit Boards this thread is for people to

Post specific match-up problems against characters, certain play-styles, and even specific players and getting help on how to overcome that situation.

Videos are especially helpful by creating a visual for people to analyze problems that you may not catch.

All is welcome for asking for help and assisting.

If you just require a broad sense of direction for fighting a character you should look towards the Official Pit Match Up thread stickied to the top. Here is a Link http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197115
 

Damix91

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
272
Location
London, UK
^^
Kinda Vague.

I struggle to edgeguard Marth with Mirrorshield/ Hogging. Wondering if anyone has tried to time spiking him as he recovers?
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
6,040
Location
Apopka Florida
Great idea rogue u know ill be taking advantage of this cuz i have 3 problems one that i shouldnt have

1)sheik florida has some of the best sheiks in the nation and its a weird matchup....
2) diddy learned it with snake but i want to know it with pit as well as i do with snake and its hard atm
3) wario wario wario....a character i use to consistently beat i now am consistently losing 2 =/

ill get up my vids asap ^^ it'll prolly be from next tourney (dec 4) or a smashfest till then
 

Rogue Pit

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
1,081
Location
Philadelphia, Pa
Wario, his air game hurts me. Marth in general hurts me.
Sense you gave me a very broad thing to cover, I'll quote broad information located in the Pit Match Up thread

Marth is a very balanced character, who has speed, range and power all packed together to create one of the games most capable opponents. Marth isn't all advantages however and does have some significant weakness that can be exploited fairly easily with a bit of effort. First of all Marth is extremely light for a guy of his size, lighter than Pit in fact which means that you shouldn't have much trouble KOing him. Comparatively Marth doesn't have much trouble KOing you either as his smashes are strong and will KO you at lower percentages, especially if Marth manages to land a tipper with any of them. However none of Marths smash attacks are safe for him on block but i'll delve into that a bit later in the summary.

Another weakness of Marth lies in his recovery. Marth has good vertical recovery with his Dolphin Slash (Up B), however his horizontal recovery is extremely poor and generally if Marth is sent far enough from the stage it becomes pratically impossible for him to recover. This is one aspect of the matchup where a Pit should definitely aim to take advantage of. Pit's Arrows eat away at his jumps and push Marth further away from the stage, coupled with the fact that Pit can WOP Marth off the stage as well as reverse the direction of his Dolphin Slash with his Mirror Shield all make for quite an advantageous situation once Pit gets Marth offstage. Pits should however still be wary when chasing a Marth offstage with a WOP as Marth has more than enough aerial options to challenge Pit even when on the defensive, therefore your best option is to generally ping Marth with Arrows to eliminate his second jump before attempting to WOP him, therefore even if he attempts to try to prevent your WOP by attacking you he still remains in a disadvantageous position when trying to get back to the stage. If you're feeling confident you can even attempt Mirror Shielding his attacks offstage as a sort of psuedo-WOP, but it is discouraged as you generally have safer options.

Marths last real "weakness" is that most of his attacks including all of his smashes aren't really safe on block unless spaced correctly. This "weakness" isn't as easily exploited as his other ones especially with Pit's comparatively poor melee options in this matchup but it is possible to create openings in Marths game with which you can capatalize on, primarily your grabs which can lead to other follow-ups and your Fsmash which can punish Marth relatively well OoS. You don't really have to worry much about diminishing your Fmash in this matchup as your Dsmash will generally kill Marth around the same percentage Fsmash would and for the most part just as reliable. You can however alternate which move you want to use, Fsmash as the punisher and Dsmash as the killer or vice versa, but take care not to readily use both moves for punishing least you diminsh both to the point where they are hard to kill with. In addition Pit will always force Marth to approach due to his Arrows which means Marth has to take the offensive in this matchup. It's at this point when Marth has gotten inside his comfort zone that you now have to focus mostly on your spacing. For the most part in this matchup you are going to want to get underneath Marth where he has somewhat of a blindspot. Your Uair, Dthrow, Usmash and Utilt are great moves when in this position and will help greatly in building up damage for a possible KO. However take care not to be too predictable as Marth's Counter (Down B) can seriously put a damper in your plans if you give him ample oppurtunities to use it.
For input I say that you have to attempt to disrupt his spacing he uses with his air game. Generally his spacing should eventually become predictable, apply a counter accordingly.

^^
Kinda Vague.

I struggle to edgeguard Marth with Mirrorshield/ Hogging. Wondering if anyone has tried to time spiking him as he recovers?
A spike isn't lightly, He gained invincibility before he gets into the range of a spike and you leave yourself open to an aerial of the ledge. Try to pummel him with arrows while offledge and edgeguard or mirrorshield of the spacing permits. If he manages to make it to ledge. Just pressure him from the corner. Remember he attains lag if he auto ledge grabs and that can be punished.

Great idea rogue u know ill be taking advantage of this cuz i have 3 problems one that i shouldnt have

1)sheik florida has some of the best sheiks in the nation and its a weird matchup....
2) diddy learned it with snake but i want to know it with pit as well as i do with snake and its hard atm
3) wario wario wario....a character i use to consistently beat i now am consistently losing 2 =/

ill get up my vids asap ^^ it'll prolly be from next tourney (dec 4) or a smashfest till then
Sheik is someone you wanna consistently camp and take advantage of her's difficulty to kill.
For Diddy I recommend learning Z grab and autothrow with bananas. Diddy controls the stage with glide tossing bananas you should try to disrupt that.
Wario is weird to fight, His DI is weird but remember you outrange him. Also Pivot grab can be one of your best weapons.

All of these require are broad. If you need simple matchup help I recommend visiting the Pit Matchup Thread first.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197115
 

Pitzer

The Young Lion
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Newport News, Virginia.
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Pitzer757
Pit vs Wario huh. Well I played Malcolm **** didn't end well, I got timed out in a match. So I had to play more aggro than usual. Basically it's like trying to kill a fly by throwing a pencil. He's really hard to it with arrows. Unless you bait his airdodges. still his air mobility is ridiculous. Nair is good in this match up. Nair last longer than wario's airdodge. Assuming wario wants to go past you with airdodging. Spacing with ariels (Fair, Bair) also helps, I never was a big fan of Fair till recently. When he is on his bike on the stage shoot and arrow and tap up on the c-stick which will bend the arrow slightly knocking him off his bike. Or you can charge an arrow for about 1.2 seconds and shoot which will knock him off his bike. The key is not letting wario have a big stage to jump around and use his side-b in the air to make it harder to hit him, so he can build up his fart. Dair I think trades with Wario if he uses Up-air, kidna risky depending on what percents you're at. Pivot arrows can sometimes work just gotta angle them. Don't Loop arrows in this match-up as much as you would air looping means 1. leaving yourself at a bad di state which he can Down b and kill you at 54%-62% if hit at the wrong time, and arrow looping just builds up his time for his fart. Oh and in some cases If you where to Pivot garb wario out of the air his feet wont touch the ground meaning. AIR RELEASE --> BAIR. Also if you're some how lucky enough to grab wario off the stage. You can Air infinite him but you'll have to either RAR Bair or Release infinite too 187%(FD) for a dair kill (FD) around 169% on BF, 172% on Smashville (Not Via platform.) On platform you can Air release and bair him due to the platform moving. Stages I would Ban Are big stages that allow Wario to just jump around after getting the lead forcing you to approach more causing you to get a little more reckless. I'd say Ban FD. Best cp's are small stages that help Pit that Makes wario have to land on some sort of platform or Stage. Which you can Uair if he does. His side step is easily annoying just hold slow jab, not infinite. However watch out for Side step --> F-smash If you call it correctly you can buffer a grab and take the damge but no knockback. Also keep in mind when you grab wario pummel him, and try to get them to mash out so you can get some free additional damage/kills. Bair and f-smash are gonna be your best killers in this match with the occasional Dair. And try to surprise em with a ftilt. Also important note if you get a tire you can glide toss it to dtilt spike wario but timing is very strict and you need to be a certain distance away. Again it's a very painful match of shoot the **** fly down. Probably one of my most hated matches I usually have 1-2 minutes left on the clock when it's over. Just play patient and smart and watch out for Uairs, his fart after 1 minute has past, for example when the match says go and it hits 7:00:00 be wary of his down b. Oh and if you get hit with his dair if it's a full hop most likely they'll uair b4 they hit the ground. Smash di up and away from him. Also it's safe if you don't glide in to the stage cause wario might bair or Uair you and uair while you're in the air can kill you at 86%-94%.

Edit: Oh and Wario's Fair really hurts when you get hit out of up-b...

I hoped I helped out. So much typing lol
 

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
3,915
Location
College Park, MD
So basically:
Marth: Get him offstage and edgeguard the **** out of him
Wario: Go super aggro, watch out for fart and uair, smash DI dair, air release to bair kill

Both seem manageable.

Could we talk about wolf? Seagull ***** me too hard when I know he shouldn't. I feel like my main problems are his fsmash range, its tough to get in bair wall, dsmash kills me, and his shine disrupts chain grabs.
 

Rogue Pit

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
1,081
Location
Philadelphia, Pa
So basically:
Marth: Get him offstage and edgeguard the **** out of him
Wario: Go super aggro, watch out for fart and uair, smash DI dair, air release to bair kill
Much more than that but sure.

Both seem manageable.

Could we talk about wolf? Seagull ***** me too hard when I know he shouldn't. I feel like my main problems are his fsmash range, its tough to get in bair wall, dsmash kills me, and his shine disrupts chain grabs.
Starting from the beginning, Seagull isn't a bad player you shouldn't be upset if you lost.

He seems to fsmash only when he has the distance and you seem to be unexpecting it. The only time the Fsmash is predicted is when he near the ledge and you are closer to the stage. Also when he spikes someone on the stage which shouldnt happen often. You can punish him when he does that.

The Bair wall come in full hop bairs into a falling bair. If you are fast enough you can punish with an Uair.

Dsmash probably hits you most when he baits an airdodge into the ground or when he grab releases into something. When he grab releases buffer a Dtilt should work against that. If he jabs shield is better, but your best option would probably be to roll backwards.

With the chain grabs all I can say is work on the timing, I can't help you improve techskill wise.

Now for a summary of what I learned about Seagull. He seems to work against people reaction time and character's speed.

He lasers a lot often you will find him shooting a laser and rolling backward to shoot another. If you predict this you can punish.
Powershielding will be your greatest weapon.

He lasers on the ground and once you try to jump over he goes for rising bairs, knowing this can help.
Personally I would Jump over the laser and Airdodge throw his Bair. He would usually Fast fall airdodge into the ground and you could punish according.

Just some short help, if you post a video of you two fighting I would be able to help you further, just some stuff I learned when watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4XR5j8w_II

 

Pitzer

The Young Lion
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
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Location
Newport News, Virginia.
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Pitzer757
You don't need to CG wolf just f-throw stutter step f-smash or f-throw dtilt near the edge. luckay when I play Seagull I'll give you more advice I usually beat his wolf on wifi with pit. But it's wifi. I love vs the spacies <3
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
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Maryland
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SeagullJoe
I suck with Wolf on Wi-Fi. That vid is 4 months old. Check my current matches like on Coney's channel vs ChuDat:

www.youtube.com/user/coneyzzzzz

Yea, I bait reactions a lot. Rogue Pit's description was pretty correct, but rolling after a laser is kinda pointless. Though I may do it if I'm provoked or something.
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
6,040
Location
Apopka Florida


Sense you gave me a very broad thing to cover, I'll quote broad information located in the Pit Match Up thread



For input I say that you have to attempt to disrupt his spacing he uses with his air game. Generally his spacing should eventually become predictable, apply a counter accordingly.



A spike isn't lightly, He gained invincibility before he gets into the range of a spike and you leave yourself open to an aerial of the ledge. Try to pummel him with arrows while offledge and edgeguard or mirrorshield of the spacing permits. If he manages to make it to ledge. Just pressure him from the corner. Remember he attains lag if he auto ledge grabs and that can be punished.



Sheik is someone you wanna consistently camp and take advantage of her's difficulty to kill.
For Diddy I recommend learning Z grab and autothrow with bananas. Diddy controls the stage with glide tossing bananas you should try to disrupt that.
Wario is weird to fight, His DI is weird but remember you outrange him. Also Pivot grab can be one of your best weapons.

All of these require are broad. If you need simple matchup help I recommend visiting the Pit Matchup Thread first.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197115
i wish it was only simple match-up help...its mostly lack of experience on them and the fact that im still learning my absolute best options/responses in various situations vs each character like i said gonna get vids up asap

Pit vs Wario huh. Well I played Malcolm **** didn't end well, I got timed out in a match. So I had to play more aggro than usual. Basically it's like trying to kill a fly by throwing a pencil. He's really hard to it with arrows. Unless you bait his airdodges. still his air mobility is ridiculous. Nair is good in this match up. Nair last longer than wario's airdodge. Assuming wario wants to go past you with airdodging. Spacing with ariels (Fair, Bair) also helps, I never was a big fan of Fair till recently. When he is on his bike on the stage shoot and arrow and tap up on the c-stick which will bend the arrow slightly knocking him off his bike. Or you can charge an arrow for about 1.2 seconds and shoot which will knock him off his bike. The key is not letting wario have a big stage to jump around and use his side-b in the air to make it harder to hit him, so he can build up his fart. Dair I think trades with Wario if he uses Up-air, kidna risky depending on what percents you're at. Pivot arrows can sometimes work just gotta angle them. Don't Loop arrows in this match-up as much as you would air looping means 1. leaving yourself at a bad di state which he can Down b and kill you at 54%-62% if hit at the wrong time, and arrow looping just builds up his time for his fart. Oh and in some cases If you where to Pivot garb wario out of the air his feet wont touch the ground meaning. AIR RELEASE --> BAIR. Also if you're some how lucky enough to grab wario off the stage. You can Air infinite him but you'll have to either RAR Bair or Release infinite too 187%(FD) for a dair kill (FD) around 169% on BF, 172% on Smashville (Not Via platform.) On platform you can Air release and bair him due to the platform moving. Stages I would Ban Are big stages that allow Wario to just jump around after getting the lead forcing you to approach more causing you to get a little more reckless. I'd say Ban FD. Best cp's are small stages that help Pit that Makes wario have to land on some sort of platform or Stage. Which you can Uair if he does. His side step is easily annoying just hold slow jab, not infinite. However watch out for Side step --> F-smash If you call it correctly you can buffer a grab and take the damge but no knockback. Also keep in mind when you grab wario pummel him, and try to get them to mash out so you can get some free additional damage/kills. Bair and f-smash are gonna be your best killers in this match with the occasional Dair. And try to surprise em with a ftilt. Also important note if you get a tire you can glide toss it to dtilt spike wario but timing is very strict and you need to be a certain distance away. Again it's a very painful match of shoot the **** fly down. Probably one of my most hated matches I usually have 1-2 minutes left on the clock when it's over. Just play patient and smart and watch out for Uairs, his fart after 1 minute has past, for example when the match says go and it hits 7:00:00 be wary of his down b. Oh and if you get hit with his dair if it's a full hop most likely they'll uair b4 they hit the ground. Smash di up and away from him. Also it's safe if you don't glide in to the stage cause wario might bair or Uair you and uair while you're in the air can kill you at 86%-94%.

Edit: Oh and Wario's Fair really hurts when you get hit out of up-b...

I hoped I helped out. So much typing lol
a couple of interesting things i hadnt already read so thx and in all honesty half the time in tourney ill just go sheik cuz of the infinite and she kills once he reaches 100% and im legit with her cuz idk wario is starting to seem like IC's for pit a very boring matchup im still gonna learn so i can go pit but when worse comes to worse sheik is meh dawg

You don't need to CG wolf just f-throw stutter step f-smash or f-throw dtilt near the edge. luckay when I play Seagull I'll give you more advice I usually beat his wolf on wifi with pit. But it's wifi. I love vs the spacies <3
i <3 fighting spacies even out of wifi such fun match-ups with pit

I suck with Wolf on Wi-Fi. That vid is 4 months old. Check my current matches like on Coney's channel vs ChuDat:

www.youtube.com/user/coneyzzzzz

Yea, I bait reactions a lot. Rogue Pit's description was pretty correct, but rolling after a laser is kinda pointless. Though I may do it if I'm provoked or something.
lmao @name search
 

Rogue Pit

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
1,081
Location
Philadelphia, Pa
Thx Seagull, I was looking for the most recent videos but I of all people know how different a month of playing can change a player.
All I could find was that one.

And my analytical skills are on point :D Who's next?
 

Nitrix

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
867
Location
London, Ontario
How should the G&W Matchup be done? I've heard Rayvn say the matchup is in Pit's favour....but I really don't see how this is possible o_o
 

Pitzer

The Young Lion
Joined
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Messages
3,548
Location
Newport News, Virginia.
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Pitzer757
G&W vs Pit. I could Write a long statement on that too. I'm not motivated to do so atm. I'll edit this post later. But the match up is def not in pit's favor it's more of 60-40, G&W Due to Pit's Greatest Aspect is being a camper and G&W shuts that down a bit not insanely, unless this G&W is Godlike on reaction, but seeing how there is like only 2 G&W'S that I consider good, Vinnie and GIMR. Give me like, uh A few hours so I can write this. Also G&W Kills pit with up-smash around 72-84%, F-smash around 64-78% and D-smash (sweet spotted) around 82-97% All on FD.
 

Rogue Pit

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
1,081
Location
Philadelphia, Pa
How should the G&W Matchup be done? I've heard Rayvn say the matchup is in Pit's favour....but I really don't see how this is possible o_o
Your the poster of the character matchup thread lol. I would expect youre the pro on matchup knowledge.
Here is the thread for GnW by R@vyn along with responses.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229007

Also I believe ravyn hasn't fought any good GnW so i Don't blame him for his doubts. I mean if you never played a good pika or kirby youd probably think pit owns him too.

G&W vs Pit. I could Write a long statement on that too. I'm not motivated to do so atm. I'll edit this post later. But the match up is def not in pit's favor it's more of 60-40, G&W Due to Pit's Greatest Aspect is being a camper and G&W shuts that down a bit not insanely, unless this G&W is Godlike on reaction, but seeing how there is like only 2 G&W'S that I consider good, Vinnie and GIMR. Give me like, uh A few hours so I can write this. Also G&W Kills pit with up-smash around 72-84%, F-smash around 64-78% and D-smash (sweet spotted) around 82-97% All on FD.
That's without DI, you shouldn't die under 100 Tbh. Also the smashes are pretty slow and if you play carefully you shouldn't die soon.

Truthfully it's not very bad IFFFF you can get pass his Bair spam. Other than that you have to play safe.

When I get a lead I turn camp mode on, I allow him to get a full bucket and after that I camp my *** off. Running the whole match and rack up damage with arrow and try to avoid getting hit with bucket. But you eliminate the possibility of him using the bucket to kill you at a low percent and gaining a large lead.

Pitzer and the other guide should be good with regular matchup help.
 

Coffee™

I need it....
Joined
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2,205
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SFL
How should the G&W Matchup be done? I've heard Rayvn say the matchup is in Pit's favour....but I really don't see how this is possible o_o
Just get the lead as soon as possible and try to maintain it. G&W has a lot of trouble approaching a defensive Pit. Pit should also generally be moving around a lot in the matchup to disrupt G&W's spacing. Pit can Jab, Fsmash Nair, Usmash, etc... when the turtle dips on G&W's Bair and if he spaces it properly to avoid being too close to Pit just retreat. G&W also has a lot of problems trying to kill Pit. His kill moves kill early but they are extremely hard to land outside of hard reads. Just being really careful around kill percentage makes it really hard for G&W.

Also I believe ravyn hasn't fought any good GnW so i Don't blame him for his doubts. I mean if you never played a good pika or kirby youd probably think pit owns him too.
No G&W that is like UTD Zac or Vinnie good but I belive I've played them enough to get a decent grasp of what the matchup should be like. t's been a while since I've played that matchup though so I might be wrong though.
 

Pitzer

The Young Lion
Joined
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Newport News, Virginia.
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Pitzer757
i need to know how to beat zss in close combat, pit gets hit by all parts of jab and it messes me up
Uhh... Im pretty sure you can perfect shield the last hit, her jab shouldn't combo you. also if you read a spotdodge do the slow jab. Pit's slow jab is so good.
 

dskank

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
469
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da swamps of polk county
Uhh... Im pretty sure you can perfect shield the last hit, her jab shouldn't combo you. also if you read a spotdodge do the slow jab. Pit's slow jab is so good.
the jab doesnt combo me just mess me up, like i sheild the jab and get jabbed again out of sheild, and her dash is good for approaching pit, her dsmash gives me trouble on occasion..
 
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