Specific Moves and how Toon Link can counter them. Weak 3: Peach's Dair

[demonictoonlink]

K...We're doing ZSS side-B now. Peach's dair next. Updated second post

 

[GodMeowMix]

Spacing is key vs. a ZSS player, primarly because she has a wicked side-b which can combo you according to your DI, not sure if its 100% accurate though. She has good range on her forward smash, and she down smash racks up good damage and has little lag. In the air you need to watch out for her UP-B, she will follow with 2 down smashes and then something else to rack up heavy damage.
Things I used to win my matches against a few were spaced neutral airs to retreating arrows, also be versatile with back airs with it too. You might want to experiment how dair works on ZSS' UP-B. Air dodge canceled item throwing is good too in the beginning of the match because ZSS will usually either throw their items strategically or spam them all at you, in which case the beginning will be an interesting match of a good ol game of catch. Thats all I can provide besides be patient, because a wrong move can get you combo'd pretty hard.


As for the ZSS Side-B usually its best (if you have a bomb in your hand obviously) to use a jump canceled throw if you see the Side B coming, her Side B isn't laggy but you can see it when it comes. Otherwise if it isn't properly spaced you can shield grab, out of shield back air, or out of shield neutral air, those are the only options I know of.

 

[BRLNK88]

Air dodge canceled item throwing is good too in the beginning of the match because ZSS will usually either throw their items strategically or spam them all at you, in which case the beginning will be an interesting match of a good ol game of catch. Thats all I can provide besides be patient, because a wrong move can get you combo'd pretty hard.

Or you could just stand there and block the armor pieces with his little shield, then do some glide tossing of your own. Not totally certain if it can slip through his upper hitbox, in which case you might be in some trouble.

 

[GodMeowMix]

Or you could just stand there and block the armor pieces with his little shield, then do some glide tossing of your own. Not totally certain if it can slip through his upper hitbox, in which case you might be in some trouble.

Think about how much effort you're putting in compared to mine. You have to block every possible incoming armor piece, grab ONE piece, and then look for a situation to do a jump canceled throw (especially when you can just pull out a bomb to do that anyway), instead of just pressing a combination of two buttons and a direction making them realize, "hm, not such a good idea."

 

[copacetic]

Air dodge canceled item throwing is good too in the beginning of the match because ZSS will usually either throw their items strategically or spam them all at you, in which case the beginning will be an interesting match of a good ol game of catch.

This. Usually they'll glide toss one piece at you and charge for a followup. The AD canceled item throw pretty much always hits them before they have a chance to get their next attack off.

As for forward-b, just don't leave yourself at the edge of its range. If they start spacing it out, just back off and spam. And if they approach with it, just SH AD->zair. If you don't get hit by the tip it's not a strong move

 

[Sosuke]

The thing is, you can air dodge your Zair, while ZSS can't.
So even though her side-B is stronger and has more range, you shouldn't be getting hit by it unless you mess up.

 

[demonictoonlink]

It still has a long duration. It can often hit through an airdodge

 

[UncleSam]

Or you could just stand there and block the armor pieces with his little shield, then do some glide tossing of your own. Not totally certain if it can slip through his upper hitbox, in which case you might be in some trouble.

we can't glide toss, we just JC throw,
and the sweetspot has a long duration, which is completely broken.
the rest of the whip is pretty harmless though after you've dodged it of course. get up close and shield/spotdodge the whip(not the sweetspot) and grab other than that... jump over and rang or zair.

 

[Sosuke]

Lingering hit-boxes aren't always good.
If you can perfect shield the whip, it lasts long enough so that you're able to run up and SH Nair her.
But be sure to perfect shield.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Sorry about leaving this... Alright...OP and SP updating.

 

[Shadow Moth]

You should put what move we're doing in the title of the thread.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Alright. Done. Start?

 

[Shadow Moth]

>____>

SH bair

/discussion.

Honestly, this may seem difficult if you're not expecting it but if you see Peach floating at all your first response should either be a projectile or bair. Obviously she's going to have to be in pretty close for a dair so you have plenty of space to bair her away.

(I'm including zair in projectiles btw)

 

[demonictoonlink]

Have you played a pro peach? In my last tournament, I played a guy named Meno...To be fair, I'm pretty sure I would've won if I wasn't hit with THREE stitch-faces... But Dair can be insane

 

[Bitter Romantic]

Peach floating as an approach is very unsafe and usually not a smart thing to do :O
especially against characters with projectiles. :3

While the best image remembered of her dair is a floating dair, keep in mind it doesn't have to be floated :O
Unless we're sure we can chain dairs or follow up with something, it's usually a better idea to shorthop it

I'm interested in how T.Link can deal with dair in some variations of dair's use.

There's the standard floating dair, which if we catch you in at a good height, is a problem, even if you're in your shield [right? o.o]; Peach can follow up with another aerial or float away to avoid punishment.
Short hop dairs can be followed to land behind you. If you shield, it can easily be followed up by a dsmash, which usually ends up shield poking.
Full hop dairs usually aim to hit you with the last few hits/last hit for the knockback at the small disjoint [the last hit may have more disjoint, but I could be wrong o.o].
If fast fell, we can land before the last hit connects, leading up to a quick follow up [dsmash being easiest for the shield poke].

Basically, please don't just assume that we're only going to be floating dairs towards you?
It is, though, a short ranged, disjointed, multihit aerial move with stringing potential depending on %, damage racking potential throughout.

demonictoonlink: So you know Meno :3
and turnip johns? really? ;P
;D

 

[Sosuke]

Of course Peach has variations with her Dair, but SH Dairs are just he most difficult to deal with because they're like, impossible to punish OoS with Toon Link.

And I'm not exactly sure which way to DI, since I'm pretty sure Peach can just follow you with the float.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Oos N-air seems to help against Peach D-air.

 

[WindMajor]

DTL, you wrote Weak 3 on the title instead of Week 3.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Just keep away from her. Never let her attack ur shield with it. It works for me against excel_zero and I consider him one of the best peach players ever. Just space her with ur boomerang, bombs and bair and u wont have trouble with her >_>. But, just in case, if u do get caught in her dair, know how to SDI it. I always SDI it like this...\ if shes hitting me facing to the right and after I SDI out I bair her .

 

[Sosuke]

You'll never have time to SH Nair OoS against Peach like that, Twink.
Unless they mess up or are just bad.


Ant, avoiding a move altogether can just be said about all the moves we discuss. Don't put that as an answer to it.
And as I said before, if they use the float right, they can just follow your DI.

 

[TLMSheikant]

If u DI like I said in my previous post \ / they cant bair at that angle to follow ur DI and u will have time before they move in for the upair. If u do it wrong tho, ull eat a full dair upair utilt combo >_>.

 

[Sosuke]

SDI like you told me? What?

 

[TLMSheikant]

SDI like i said in my previous post*.

 

[Sosuke]

" I always SDI it like this...\"

????

 

[TLMSheikant]

Everytime u get hit by a dair during hitlag press diagonal up and away from peach. That limits her followups to an extent. Hence the \. I hope u do get it now. >_>

 

[Sosuke]

Well thats much different then a slash sign. o_O


I still don't get how you can get out of it though. if she just follows the left or right direction you're going in, what are you supposed to do? You can't go over her, so you're still getting hit.

 

[Shadow Moth]

The best thing to do is not get hit. >.>

But if you do you should probably SDI down and try to tech roll away.

 

[Bitter Romantic]

You smash DI up and away :3
or in a ' \ ' or ' / ' kinda movement like TLMSheikant depicted. XD

You want to get enough distance away to attack right away and hopefully avoid a bair/nair [possibly even another dair] followup depending on which way you DI in relation to where she's facing.
I don't know if Peach trying an uair to get you guys if you SDI is a good thing. o.o
I think it'd be safer to finish it off with another aerial [notably bair/nair] or to get away if Peach can't read and follow up your SDI. :O

I think SDI up and away to a quick bair [nair if you're facing Peach?] is probably your best best for a floating Peach or if she's close and can't retaliate :O


edit: SDI down to techroll? interesting :O
never seen that done as a response to this so would not know its effectiveness, but it sounds fine in theory?

 

[Hyro]

For ZSS's forward B, it's just like a projectile. That's one of my best matchups, and the only things I worry about is powershielding forward B's and not getting in range of the dsmash. After that, they can't really win. Just think of forward B as a projectile and always expect it.

Peach's dair...arrows and boomerangs won't stop it...so I reccommend stopping it before it comes out. SH boomerang straight and it'll usually take away their float path.

 

[Shadow Moth]

It's not that hard to just bair if you see Peach approaching. If it looks like you're not going to be able to get one on her then retreat. >_>

BTW the title still says "Weak"

 

[copacetic]

BTW the title still says "Weak"

bc TL is weak to these moves! ahaha horrible pun!

Also I just shield and spot dodge as soon as the dair is ending. The spot dodge usually lasts long enough to avoid the d-smash (or other followup) and leaves them open for a grab

Most peaches are way to confident in their shield poke that they'll try it even if it fails a couple times, and once they stop going for the immediate followup we've pretty much removed most of the threat

 

[demonictoonlink]

The "weak" was the pun...
BTW Spot-dodging=BAD. They can follow up with another dair.

 

[copacetic]

If they're floating, yes

The floating, as said before, is a bit more transparent and only done if they feel they have a followup. A lot of good peaches just go with the SH or FH dair, then land for a shieldpoke, in which case you do what I said, where spot-dodging=GOOD

(and i was explaining the pun)

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

I've been able to dodge a Peach's dair by shielding then before the last hit spot dodge then immediately use my up B. Go ahead, try it.

 

[Pho]

If you have a bomb, try to aim for the body, not the legs. Peach can kick the bomb and not have it explode. Also try to ibomb. It works wonders.

Also watch out for follow ups. If she lands after or during the dair, she may follow it up with a down smash to wreck shields.

 

[Sosuke]

When Peach approaches with a float, idk if its going to be a Dair or Fair.
Thats the main problem with this. If I knew it was going the be a Dair, I'd be ready, but her fair is too fast is she decides to do that.