Splitting at Smash Tourneys and ROM 5

[CT Chia]

Do I support splitting? Hell no. In fact, I've been one of the biggest forerunners against splitting. Now we know what happened at ROM, but is it so out of the question? Why do we flip **** over it now?

I understand the importance of there being no prize splitting, but for it now to explode out of no where and for a stink about it to be made publicly on stream and on social media in front of thousands of players is not going to do anything positive, all it does is hurt out community. Barring the Unity Ruleset, it has not (or hardly) been documented as prize splitting is not allowed, and why it is bad. It was not documented as not being allowed in either the ROM 5 thread, or in any Apex Series resources (since this was an Apex qualifier).

So what do you think, should action be taken? I'm not here to answer that question. I am also not here as any representation of Apex Staff.

But how bout some food for thought?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=329882&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15067974&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=329377&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15025066&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14984836&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14966007&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14965388&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=328520&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=328301&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=328111&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=327412&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=327109&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14820554#post14820554
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=327051&highlight=split
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=326469&highlight=split

And that's just a small sample of what recent results have to offer. And in that list are two of the three players included in yesterday's split with another incident.

I also have one other example from a little bit further ago:

http://www.apex-series.com/the-big-house-wrap-up-results-2/

A write up for The Big House on the Apex website itself. The Big House was a qualifier for Apex 2012. This article itself states that top 2 split, on the official Apex website for a previous Apex qualifier.



---


Is splitting a problem? Yes. Does it need to stop? Yes. Causing such an insane fuss over it now seemingly out of no where? Not right. Had it been documented at all then you can say otherwise, but what happened at ROM (splitting wise, not dealing with the ruleset confusion and Winners Semis splitting) is NOTHING new. The community needs to work on fixing the problem, and not think that what happened at ROM was out of the blue.

As for CT and Mew2King, he takes full fault for offering the split at ROM 5. I have talked with him extensively since it happened, and have made sure that he knows it is wrong and not to do it again. He offered it with no bad intentions, and even stated himself to me that it was not said that it wasn't allowed at all, and that it happens all the time (as proved here). Despite the split, he continued to play his hardest through Losers and Grand Finals, as he still wanted to win the tournament. Still, I have taken the time with him to make sure he knows that he should not be splitting again.

 

[Mister Eric]

Agreed .

 

[Mew2King]

yea I talked w/ chibo about this a lot on facebook after I got home. People overreact to it so I am not doing it anymore. I never cared that much, and honestly over the past 7 years or so I have lost MANY thousands in total to doing that. In the past, people would usually not be friends with me if I didn't split, but now in the past 5 years it has turned around to the point where people hate it (the opposite of 5 years ago), so I'm done with it.

I just wanted to win the tournament after Hax convinced me to (so he pretty much saved the tourney at least with my emotions) so I made sure to do my best to do that, regardless of how I felt cuz I did not want to break my word. I offer to split but I always do and I also generally don't have confidence in myself to win 2 sets so I would definitely request it in those situations, but even in a reverse situation, where I was in GF and they asked to split, (like i have with jman a lot), I usually would say yes anyway because I do not want to say no to people (same way i did not want to say "no" to alukard when he asked if i was okay with switching the bracket to give me a harder bracket so the canadians wouldn't have to fight each other) and I always do that anyway, but I still wanted to win just for the sake of having 1st. I can simply stop if it's that big of a deal to everyone though.

 

[Deleted member]

honestly chibo i'm not sure if splitting is a matter of ethics. however, if we're going to make a decision on it, it should be a unanimous one either way so that the issue doesn't come up as often.

 

[Djent]

Here's what Mr.Wizard thinks, for those of you that want Melee (or just Smash in general) back at EVO. It may or may not be "wrong," but pragmatically it should at the *very least* be quieter.

EDIT: This was obviously prompted by the discussion over RoM 5.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh we're still trying to get into EVO?

I thought a new fad had replaced that one.

 

[prog]

Oh we're still trying to get into EVO?

I thought a new fad had replaced that one.

Silly hats didn't work out, so we went back to EVO.

 

[Djent]

Yeah, that fad got over 6,000 (possibly illegitimate) votes, though I guess you can speak for all of them.

 

[Iron Dragon]

if you actually think votes about what game should be there means even 50% of what games they're ACTUALLY going to put, then you probably voted on that poll for the wrong reasons.

 

[Djent]

It is and should be only a fraction of what goes into the decision, agreed. Which will actually be a problem if nationals continue to end like RoM.

 

[.Ðempt]

Can we just let this die already? Ffs.

 

[Pakman]

Chibo..... proofread your posts. I had to read the original post like 4 times just to understand what you are talking about.

Everyone keeps saying splitting shouldn't happen and it needs to be stopped. None of those people are M2K or the people who split with him. M2K splits because he a fan of hedging his bets. He doesn't like to gamble with money he already has. He doesn't take big risks and nothing you do is really going to change that mentality. He is ALWAYS going to want to split when money is on the line. Forbidding splitting isn't going to change his mentality even if you force him to go against it.

From what I have seen, people are angry at splitting because it makes finals more trivial and the players won't take them seriously. The knee jerk reaction is to say "no splitting". However, if we start thinking of the problem as "boring grand finals" rather than "splitting is bad", I think we might have some more interesting solutions.

If you really want to avoid boring grand finals at your events, give the player an incentive to play out finals. You can have your cash prizes but it would be very difficult to avoid splitting even if it is strictly against the rules. Make that incentive something that can't be split. Money can always be split after the event and it would be impossible to enforce anyway.

You could consider a prize system add one or two dollars to the venue fee and get something the winner can take home. You could consider free entry/venue fee to the next tournament in the series for the winner. Even if the players split the winnings they will still at least play out the set to get the incentive.

 

[EastCoastEddie]

This isn't about the money, it's about our pride as a community. You can do whatever you like with the money and split it, everyone knows that happens. But when you play like crap and sandbag in the finals in front of thousands of people, it makes the smash community look bad and it's just one more reason that is holding us back from being taken serious by most of the other players in the FGC.

If pride isn't enough of an incentive, than that shows how poor our community is. Your incentive should be to prove your are the best. If you need more incentive than that, then our community really doesn't mean that much in the first place to you.

When you are in the finals of a major event, you have to bear in mind that you are representing the community and yourself. If you just taking the money and walking away, you look like a punk plain and simple. I'm not calling out anyone in particular btw.

 

[Mew2King]

i did not sandbag any of my sets! there were times i played badly but not sandbagging. I wish i never brought up splitting, i regret that so much.

 

[EastCoastEddie]

Mew2King: As I said, I wasn't calling anyone in particular out. I was just generally commenting on people splitting / sandbagging.

 

[GOTM]

Chibo..... proofread your posts. I had to read the original post like 4 times just to understand what you are talking about.

Everyone keeps saying splitting shouldn't happen and it needs to be stopped. None of those people are M2K or the people who split with him. M2K splits because he a fan of hedging his bets. He doesn't like to gamble with money he already has. He doesn't take big risks and nothing you do is really going to change that mentality. He is ALWAYS going to want to split when money is on the line. Forbidding splitting isn't going to change his mentality even if you force him to go against it.

From what I have seen, people are angry at splitting because it makes finals more trivial and the players won't take them seriously. The knee jerk reaction is to say "no splitting". However, if we start thinking of the problem as "boring grand finals" rather than "splitting is bad", I think we might have some more interesting solutions.

If you really want to avoid boring grand finals at your events, give the player an incentive to play out finals. You can have your cash prizes but it would be very difficult to avoid splitting even if it is strictly against the rules. Make that incentive something that can't be split. Money can always be split after the event and it would be impossible to enforce anyway.

You could consider a prize system add one or two dollars to the venue fee and get something the winner can take home. You could consider free entry/venue fee to the next tournament in the series for the winner. Even if the players split the winnings they will still at least play out the set to get the incentive.

Truth.

By the way M2K, I take back saying you did not take your sets seriously, but keeping my other post on more general terms I think it still makes sense. You were not in the wrong here though.

 

[Pakman]

This isn't about the money, it's about our pride as a community. You can do whatever you like with the money and split it, everyone knows that happens. But when you play like crap and sandbag in the finals in front of thousands of people, it makes the smash community look bad and it's just one more reason that is holding us back from being taken serious by most of the other players in the FGC.

If pride isn't enough of an incentive, than that shows how poor our community is. Your incentive should be to prove your are the best. If you need more incentive than that, then our community really doesn't mean that much in the first place to you.

When you are in the finals of a major event, you have to bear in mind that you are representing the community and yourself. If you just taking the money and walking away, you look like a punk plain and simple. I'm not calling out anyone in particular btw.

There is a difference between the way people should act and the way they do act. People shouldn't sandbag in finals, but a lot of times they do. Being idealistic about it isn't going to fix it. You seem to understand the problem well here, but plenty of people would rather be a "plain and simple punk" and have guaranteed cash than test their ability in a finals set. Again it shouldn't be that way, but in reality that is often how it happens.

 

[Kink-Link5]

i did not sandbag any of my sets! there were times i played badly but not sandbagging. I wish i never brought up splitting, i regret that so much.

I don't think this can be emphasized enough. Even the best contenders in any game can be out of it, off, or generally just play poorly for no real reason without it being on purpose or for ulterior motives.

Sometimes players are just bad by themselves.

(No offense M2K; hope you get what I mean)

 

[Cort]

I don't see the big deal. If you want to disallow splitting at tournaments then so be it. But you can't control what people do with their prize money once the tournament is over. You ain't the police.

Grand finals should always be taken seriously though - super lame to the crowd if it isn't played out legitimately... but this is a pretty subjective topic.

 

[nealdt]

Hi Cort!

The short of it is that this community will never be taken seriously as long as this happens in public. It may never be taken seriously anyway, but that's another issue. The only reason splitting really matters -- no, it's not a morality issue -- is that outside sponsors will never be interested in Smash so long as splitting is happening. Many people don't care about that for their own reasons. Many people do, and they want Smash to carry the kind of outside interest we saw in the first year after Brawl's release, but on a longer term. Splitting the finals at a major event kills that goal.

(And for the record, speaking as the person who, you know, co-ran Brawl at Evo in 2009... the FGC will never respect Smash even if they allow you to use their event space so they can get more money. They will always treat you like second class citizens. So if you're looking at Evo as a chance to legitimize the community, you're wasting your time.)

 

[prog]

Hi Cort!

The short of it is that this community will never be taken seriously as long as this happens in public. It may never be taken seriously anyway, but that's another issue. The only reason splitting really matters -- no, it's not a morality issue -- is that outside sponsors will never be interested in Smash so long as splitting is happening. Many people don't care about that for their own reasons. Many people do, and they want Smash to carry the kind of outside interest we saw in the first year after Brawl's release, but on a longer term. Splitting the finals at a major event kills that goal.

(And for the record, speaking as the person who, you know, co-ran Brawl at Evo in 2009... the FGC will never respect Smash even if they allow you to use their event space so they can get more money. They will always treat you like second class citizens. So if you're looking at Evo as a chance to legitimize the community, you're wasting your time.)

I love truth with my afternoon coffee.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Right but the difference is that every single thread you quote is a regional with 20-30 people. Splitting there is different from a national. At national tournaments it's finally your chance to cement yourself as one of the top players and then you go full idiot-mode and decide to throw that away by splitting.
Your only example that is SOMEWHAT relevant is Big House, but then we neglect to mention the fact S2J and Lovage are very good friends, both from the same region as well. Can't say the same about M2K and Unknown and M2K and KK, so the splitting is for entirely different reasons.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

This isn't about the money, it's about our pride as a community. You can do whatever you like with the money and split it, everyone knows that happens. But when you play like crap and sandbag in the finals in front of thousands of people, it makes the smash community look bad and it's just one more reason that is holding us back from being taken serious by most of the other players in the FGC.

If pride isn't enough of an incentive, than that shows how poor our community is. Your incentive should be to prove your are the best. If you need more incentive than that, then our community really doesn't mean that much in the first place to you.

When you are in the finals of a major event, you have to bear in mind that you are representing the community and yourself. If you just taking the money and walking away, you look like a punk plain and simple. I'm not calling out anyone in particular btw.

What this person and the most recent post said. I am not referring to you M2K as you actually tried (and had a legitamate reason to be upset due to the Winner's Semi's match). I am referring to the hideous winner's finals where neither of those guys used their mains and the grand finals where Unknown never used Fox and got knocked out in 6 games out of a possible 10 game set that was hyped due to a stupid tournament decision before.

I don't care if you were tired or sick Unknown. Dr. PeePee went to Genesis 2 while sick and he consistently used Falco REGARDLESS (and I applaud him for trying regardless of him being sick.)

I don't care if you are good friends with KK or with M2K. It's Winner's Finals of a tournament that was a national with 3000 people watching, yep THREE THOUSAND for smash that doesn't involve the words Apex, FC, or Genesis. And this involved many FGC players also. I could put this a different way but I will edit this. Stop acting like friends playing a causal together and try like normal competitors.

It just is not right for the reasons this guy said. Stop making excuses and play a competition. M2K showed that he was using mains regardless of splitting. That is how you split. Not by using secondaries and joke characters which tell the viewers to f*** off during Grand Finals.

 

[metalmonstar]

It really seems this is more about skewing grand finals then about splitting. I can't really blame the players who split. It is pretty much the prisoner's dilemma and smash players have found the best solution. This could mean that we have a problem with our prize distribution or maybe we need a non monetary incentive for coming in first place, such as higher seeds for future tournaments, t-shirts, or trophies.

 

[Djent]

(And for the record, speaking as the person who, you know, co-ran Brawl at Evo in 2009... the FGC will never respect Smash even if they allow you to use their event space so they can get more money. They will always treat you like second class citizens. So if you're looking at Evo as a chance to legitimize the community, you're wasting your time.)

DAMN, it hurts to hear this from you of all people. Do you think the fact that Brawl was a side tournament affected their attitudes at all? If not, and they're just not worth it period, then I guess it matters **** all what Mr.Wizard et al. think. Now to find a way to tell the 6K people who voted in that poll that they're delusional.

 

[GimR]

A lot of the FGC respects Melee a lot. People seem not to understand that

 

[Juggleguy]

Just to clarify, the S2J/Lovage split at The Big House was not made widely public before they started Grand Finals; they played out a competitive set and it was agreed upon that the winner would get the 1st place title and the 1st place Apex seeding points. I don't hold anything against them for splitting the money because they were gracious enough to play out a competitive set. But I do agree that once sponsors and livestream broadcasts get involved, splitting has many more negative implications.

 

[kevlar]

A friend of mine said that because of the drama and such at ROM that VG boot camp was dropping Melee. Can anyone confirm this? Sorry, i just didn't want to have to start a new thread for this.

 

[Nintendude]

I've heard no indication that it is true and it sounds like a false rumor to me.

 

[GimR]

nah, we're not gonna let 3 people make us drop Melee, lol

 

[Chroma]

Does anyone else think Mr. Wizard sounded a little silly with that tweet? As long as the players play out competitive sets for pride and honor, is pot-splitting really a bad thing? It's their money and you can't stop them from making intelligent decisions with it. Sometimes, people need the money (this is perhaps not a situation that Mr. Wizard is as intimately familiar with as some players), or would both feel much better if money weren't a part of the finals and put on a better show.

 

[Mew2King]

I don't even like being a part of this. I'm sorry for asking to split but I tried hard to HELP make the tourney better but the BS that happened ruined my desire to play, but I still tried to play it out to the end anyway after my talk with hax.

 

[gsninja]

I couldn't care less about splitting so long as the matches played are still hyped up and competitive. That's what matters in the end, right?

 

[Mew2King]

well i did that part

 

[michael_li]

lol chillax jason zimmerman. just be urself! dont listen to pple that complain about what ur choices. u wont go to jail, trust me . besides they arnt talking about ur personality so theres nothing really u have to change! these pple arnt worth ur time anyway.

 

[Player-1]

As an official member of the URC I am issuing Mew2King, Unknown522, and KirbyKaze a red card.

 

[wiito]

Well if we are talking about a professional environment, people shouldn't split or even talk about it before the tournament ends, if you have sponsors or people who are investing money to run a good torunament and give you a professional environment and the spectators a good show then you should act as professional as possible.. In some sports like football or tenis I can't remember exactly which, you get punished if you don't try your best or something like that

 

[big bad wolf]

they get fined and suspended ^

 

[wiito]

Yeah that, thanks... I think that splitting takes away the competitiveness

 

[Mike G]

The real issue isn't about spitting, but throwing matches in general.

Some people already said it. You can't control what people do with THEIR MONEY after the tourney, but you can ENFORCE RULES to make sure people are playing to their best ability during the tournament. If it's obvious that a person isn't playing their best at a finals unless they have a damn good reason, it's simple: They have to forfeit. Sounds harsh? Probably, but players have no reason to goof around when they are that close at getting a shot a winning a national. It's a slap in the face to people that tried their best and didn't make it to top 3 and the community/streamers/staff
/etc. This isn't on just on the Top three either. Everyone in the community needs to do their part to at least try to prevent this from happening again. How do you expect FGC to treat us better when we can't even take pride in our own game?