Squirtle Moveset Discussion (Currently: Utilt)

[choknater]

A question that should be asked for all up-B's:

Is this move good out of shield?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Yup, not the best, but it has good range in front of you and up
I love using waterfall as an attack ... its squirtles most ranged move after all

 

[Syrus_Draco]

It can be used out of shield, but it has a bit of lag till it actually starts to pick up the opponent. Take Charizard's out of shield Fly, it starts up right away and catches the enemy since the attach is right up in front of him. Squirtle's Waterfall works a little different. At the start up there's a gap between Squirtle and the hit box of where the Waterfall has it's peek (The circular part that launches the opponent). Between that gap is a few frames a lag till the opponent get's caught up in the Waterfall attack. So while it can be out of shield, your opponent does have the ability to counter if he can before the Waterfall catches up with him.

Once again it's not instant like out of shield Fly, has a few frames gap, but it can have it's effectiveness in certain situations.

 

[The Derrit]

I know this is late in the game but I think this is a decent mention for Withdraw.

You can control the speed of Withdraw manually. Tested this on FD, if you start Withdraw from one side and hold back you will travel slower and end up at the middle of the stage with Squirtle coming out on his own. If you hold forward you will travel a little faster and longer, as Squirtle will come out when he's well over the stage. When he does come out naturally he is not too far out to where you can't second jump and waterfall back on the stage easy.

Just thought the speed of Withdraw may be worth mentioning for the first post.

OMG. That's ****.

Waterfall goes through Meta's tornado.

OMG YES. Nomination for best two pieces of info in a row right there

 

[Onxy]

Could use more minds, but that's okay.

Thanks Derrit, lol.....oh and Draco.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

So I guess a noob gets to start the ball rolling for Water Gun?

I always keep it charged even though opportunitys to get a good use out of it are few and far between, there's no reason not to. Having a Charged Water Gun does not hinder you in any way and it charges in like 1 empty Short Hops time frame.

I actually use it quite a lot against Meta Knight. It stops dead his Tornado and his Corkscrew sending him into freefall if he's off the stage. Ever gimped a Meta you've tricked into recovering with his Side B by feigning an edgehog? I have, and it's awesome stuff. I'm unable to test this as I do not have the physical dexterity to operate both controllers at the same time and nobody to help me but I imagine it would probably stop a MetaKnight gliding out of Shuttle Loop too, if someone could test this and more importantly if I'm right this move could potentially gimp 3 of Meta's recovery options which is total awesomesauce.

 

[The Derrit]

Water Gun is a strange move with some very unorthodox applications. Against some opponents it can be completely useless, but against others it can be a godsend.

Water Gun is a charge move, so once b is pressed squirtle starts charging. It charges relatively quickly, so charge it often: after a mid% throw, non-deadly smashes, a nice fair, just about whenever. This charge is also unique in the sense that you still have your aerial mobility while charging! So squirtle can even charge Water Gun while recovering from a hard hit zigzagging all the way down! There's very little reason not to have this charged at all times.

There are two different effects of this move: The first, if you press b again directly after, is a very short range, multi hit attack with no knockback and significant ending lag, which deals 12% (9% fatigued). Honestly, this move has practically no useage. Even if you hit with it, your opponent will likely recover faster than you and punch you in the faces.

Consistent uses for uncharged Water Gun:
????? (If someone finds one they get 5 rare candies)

Now that we're over that hump, let's talk about the bread and butter of this move, the charged water stream. When released, this move will push an opponent through the air or across the stage. It has some startup lag, so don't expect to surprise an opponent at point-blank range, unless its during their attack cooldown. During the stream, it can be aimed up and down, though the trajectory always starts at horizontal and must be altered from there. Standing directly next to an opponent, a fully charged Water Gun will accelerate your opponent to an impressive speed.

With your opponent onstage, this move can be used to keep spacing, and to generally interrupt an opponent's rhythm. If you see your opponent charging at you with something you don't like, water gun them away and get yourself into a more comfortable position. Another useage for this move is to push your unsuspecting opponent off the ledge to set up for a ledgeguard, but this is less common and should be used sparingly. It also has some character specific uses which will be discussed later.

Most commonly, this is used to hinder an opponent's recovery while remaining on the stage. Against some characters's recoveries it has the capability to kill, against others' it has the ability to stall and set up for an easy followup attack, against yet others' it won't do jack. Depending on who you fight, this move's edgeguarding usefulness will change drastically.

BONUS: The charged water stream also kills or stops low and mid level projectiles (I will put up a full list after testing)



Because the uses of Water Gun can be so specific, below is a list of what special uses water gun can have against each character. Clearly it pushes everyone away, we know that. But how it messes with each character, and their recovery, is important.

Ness
PKT2: Aim and enjoy either a PK Misfire, or watch Ness scramble to account for the new location of his body while the PKT stays in the same place.

Lucas
PKT2: Look at Ness and we have about the same story. You have to be just a little quicker on the draw, but it still royally screws the Lucas if you get a good piece of him.

Ike
QD: It won't usually get the gimp, but it can cause Ike to stall in midair, leaving a nice target for a fair/bair/usmash/a lot of things.
Aether: Water Gun won't do much if Aether is sweetspotted. However, if your opponent tries to Aether Stall you, then aim slightly up and you might be able to get him off the side. Embarassment city.

Link
Up-B: If he's not ledge hugging, squirtle should be able to push him out at least far enough to put in a fair and send him to his next stock.

Ganondorf /Captain Falcon (from Rev)
Side-B: Can be effectively stopped.
Up-B: See Link above.

Wolf
CAUTION: Water Gun does NOTHING against wolf's up-b attack. Beware.

Snake
Against Snake, Water Gun can be a godsend not as a gimp, but as an onstage defense. It stops grenades, slows/stops nikitias, and can push snake into his own mines. Pushing Snake off the side can also be particularly effective, as if you can get above Snake or make him recover next to the ledge you have a lot of options to punish and kill. (grab-gimps ftw!)

Metaknight (from Xiahou Dun)
Water gun can stop the Mach Tornado and Drill Rush in their tracks, sending Meta into freefall! Drill Rush will continue for the full duration of the attack but not move forwards against the momentum of Water Gun, whereas Mach Tornado will end.

I'll be sure to add more uses, but add your own in the thread! I'll add them here, and give you credit (of course )

 

[Xiahou Dun]

OH so it's called the Drill Rush is it? I always called it the corkscrew. Anyway just to clarify Tornado is stopped instantly depositing MetaKnight wherever he was hit whereas Drill Rush will fight the Water Gun's momentum for the full duration of the attack before falling, Water gun totally owns it still though, they'll only manage to travel a few millimetres forwards if Drill Rush collides with Water Gun so you should barely ever see them manage to recover with it through a Water Gun unless they're close enough to the point at which they could of reached the ledge through simple DI anyway and are just using the Drill Rush to recover in a safer way to prevent you chasing them with your aerials.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

Water Gun is also useful for stopping Falcon's and Ganon's Side-B. Possibly Up-B too.

Is Water Gun similar to Mario's FLUDD? Because the Mario boards have a nice guide on FLUDD, and maybe the same techniques could apply to Water Gun.

 

[Caasi11]

Well, there IS a consistent use for the uncharged Water Gun, getting rid of those pesky n00bs who wait for you on the edge of a stage just to grab you, walk off the stage, and throw you to your doom (usually DK or Kirby with his Inhale). It doesn't help that the fact that they shield too, which stops your charged Water Gun from working properly. If you decide to go near them, you'll fall for the trap, and the fact that your Stamina depletes doesn't help. That's where Water Gun + Charging DI =/= Throw camping n00bs.

To stop your opponent from getting a cheap kill, you must double jump in front of them (about 5 Squirtle bodies away) and start to DI towards them. When you're about 2 or 3 bodies away start charging Water Gun. Make sure that you're not to close or too far when charging, or you'll mistime your attack. When you get right in front of your opponent, release the uncharged Water Gun (this should be done right after you start to DI towards your opponent). What should happen is that your opponent will shield the attack and go for a shield grab. Luckily, the uncharged Water Gun interrupts the grab, hits the opponent multiple times, and sends 'em over the edge. You can then proceed to gimp them.

 

[The Derrit]

Water Gun is also useful for stopping Falcon's and Ganon's Side-B. Possibly Up-B too.

Is Water Gun similar to Mario's FLUDD? Because the Mario boards have a nice guide on FLUDD, and maybe the same techniques could apply to Water Gun.

Its pretty **** similar. Could you link that? I'm sure we can use their info for cross reference.

 

[Adriel]

I found a use for no charge Water Gun. o-o

If your opponent is ledge-camping you can stay by the edge and do a no charge Water gun to hit them! (When they jump up of course, the only character I've done this against is Samus)

 

[The Derrit]

I found a use for no charge Water Gun. o-o

If your opponent is ledge-camping you can stay by the edge and do a no charge Water gun to hit them! (When they jump up of course, the only character I've done this against is Samus)

couldn't you just hit them with, you know, anything else?

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196174

The FLUDD guide.

 

[Onxy]

OP updated.

 

[The Derrit]

Come on people add your uses for watergun! I know you haves them.....

nasty hobbitses

 

[Onxy]

It's pretty bad when I have to rely on 2-3 people for this discussion...

 

[Skink]

Everything that really needs to be said is in that FLUDD guide and the discussion following it. Also, I've been using pokémon trainer lately because I want to be the very best, like no one ever was.

 

[Onxy]

Not only this, but moves in general, for all pokemon, lol.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Where do you have to aim Water Gun to get the best knockback? Even when I hit a person with a lot of water they usually don't get pushed back at all; at least not to the results of Mario Players I see with FLUDD.

I mainly just use it versus Snake, Psi Boys, Ike, and Link.

 

[The Derrit]

Where do you have to aim Water Gun to get the best knockback? Even when I hit a person with a lot of water they usually don't get pushed back at all; at least not to the results of Mario Players I see with FLUDD.

I mainly just use it versus Snake, Psi Boys, Ike, and Link.

Its not so much where you aim it as how close they are to you. If they're close, the knockback is pretty huge. If they're farther away, not as much.

 

[infomon]

O hai mind if I pop in?

I saw your Withdraw discussion, but noone mentioned that it's Squirtle's best momentum-cancelling option. That is, when you get it at high percent for a long-distance KO, Squirtle should escape hitstun with his fastest aerial (is it Bair?), then quickly use side-B. It fights hard against the remaining knockback; Squirtle even sorta pauses in midair for a while, before he regains his aerial mobility. Then you can just cancel the Withdraw and return to the stage normally.

Ummmmmmm, if I'm not making sense, I have examples in my videos
[Recovering in Brawl: Momentum-Cancelling examples]
[Crazy Recovery Techniques: G&W Bucket-Cancelling + moar!]

erm, sorry if this y'all already know about this...... I feel kinda silly to be advertising my vids like this loll, but thought it might help.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

I certainly didn't know that.

Now, as far as the FLUDD guide discussion goes, there's a technique called FIHL, or FLUDD Induced Hit Lag, that seems pretty cool. I wonder if it works for WG.

Not sure about this, but I've noticed that when Fludding characters like G&W during Bair or DK during upB, they eat through the water BUT it lengthens how long the attack is out; sort of like the statues on the second phase of castle siege. I've also noticed that I gain more time to react after this is over to come in for an Usmash or Cape or w/e. Judge Judy has been noticing this too vs G&W.

Yes, it does prolong the animation of a move that out prioritizes FLUDD. How exactly? Well, first of all, when FLUDD is done shooting water, the water animation is still in effect, and it acts as a constant hitbox. Since it's being out-prioritized, the animation of the opponent's attack is constantly forced to cancel it out, making it stuck on a single frame (Kinda like how two jabs cancel each other out, there's about a split second of lag). This gives Mario about a half-second to run over and attack, because the animation practically holds them in place.

 

[CoonTail]

Its not so much where you aim it as how close they are to you. If they're close, the knockback is pretty huge. If they're farther away, not as much.

Derrit said it best the further away an opponent is the weaker the water gets, so with this I found that just movement based recoveries without large hitboxes are where watergun should be used, both ness' and lucas' up b will recieve very high knockback from water gun, wolf's side b is not a fan of water gun, both c falc's and ganons recovery dont like this, fox's firefox and falco's firebird are pushed far with this, obv wario's up b gets laughed at by water gun IF AIMED PROPERLY, link and toon link can be gimped with it but toon link has a way better chance of recovering from this, marth's dolphin slash at the height of the attack can be watergunned, Zelda can be watergunned like dedede sonic yoshi and suited samus after the up b while blinking all of these characters cannot do anything to stop the gimp. Lastly is Lucario who honestly gets the worst of water gun due to the fact that right before he does his up-b lucario stays in place of a second giving you two different times to watergun him and the first opening if he is hit leaves him little room to make it back to the edge.

Overall the is the entire list of characters who can suffer from watergun all other characters not addressed have recoveries that out prioritize watergun or overall watergun does not have a strong effect on.

 

[Steeler]

(should learn to read infzy's posts)

snake kinda gets pushed up by water gun from my experience. but i've only used it a few times.

water gun vs snake

water gun can push grenades right back at snake and really screw with his camping

water gun will hold snake in place during a dacus

water gun pushes snake if he's hanging onto a cypher

all of these are pretty funny

best use imo

let's say squirtle manages to grab snake out of a cypher. snake will try to c4 himself back up...at that point you water gun him away from the c4! :D

water gun is most useful vs snake and the mother boys, imo.

 

[infomon]

(post removed by a ninja Squartle)

 

[The Derrit]

I certainly didn't know that.

Now, as far as the FLUDD guide discussion goes, there's a technique called FIHL, or FLUDD Induced Hit Lag, that seems pretty cool. I wonder if it works for WG.

I've had similar things happen against GW and some others so I would assume that it does, and it seems pretty useful.

 

[Onxy]

Jab!
Post moar.

 

[choknater]

ok someone confirm this

we already know squirtle's jab is ULTRA BEAST, imo like... his best move lol

confirm please: does it really strike on frame 1?

 

[Zephramrill]

squirtle jab just plain *****. everything about it just *****. jab grab *****, jab jab tilt *****, jab combo *****. its usually a nice followup to a SHaerial, and after any missed move. I'll write an essay on this later.

 

[The Derrit]

I mean, its a jab. Its a great jab, but still just a jab combo.

K. So 1st jab comes out frame one. super sweet.

2nd jab often trips. Also super sweet.

If not out of an aerial or the 2nd jab doesn't trip, 3rd jab can be blocked by some characters! be aware of this, it is squirtle's weakness.

 

[Adriel]

You can delay the 3rd hit of Squartle's jab to throw off your opponent's timing.

 

[Onxy]

You can delay the 3rd hit of Squartle's jab to throw off your opponent's timing.

Stop calling him Squartle!

Also, I want to know how well I'm doing with these discussions. I don't want to waste people's time just to make something cryptic and uninformative, and I need to know what to change.

 

[CHOMPY]

Great move and moves so quick that you can follow a grab move after the first jab or you can go up to 3 jabs. I usually use that move right after a Ftilt or when Squirtle is about to land. Any other suggestions of when too use a Jab and what moves to follow it up with?

 

[The Derrit]

Stop calling him Squartle!

Also, I want to know how well I'm doing with these discussions. I don't want to waste people's time just to make something cryptic and uninformative, and I need to know what to change.

I think so far its doing just fine. The discussion for the jabs is going to be a little stale, because they're jabs; they all serve the same purpose, its just about how well they do it and if they have useful jab cancels. But for the special moves I think we learned a lot. While we might not find groundbreaking things right now, the point is to have this base knowledge in place so when people come around, they can learn the pokes well. If we find rediculous stuff later, it gets edited in. While the database won't always be super exciting, just having it there is useful.

 

[CoonTail]

Stop calling him Squartle!

Also, I want to know how well I'm doing with these discussions. I don't want to waste people's time just to make something cryptic and uninformative, and I need to know what to change.

I needed to address this first, Onyx I just put down some good info in all three of the poke discussions and have also found alot of aid in these. I believe these discussions are where good PT mains are gonna be able to show their own tricks and secrets with PT's moveset and these boards will help more PTs get these new tricks going. So either way great idea with these discussions onyx.

squirtle jab just plain *****. everything about it just *****. jab grab *****, jab jab tilt *****, jab combo *****. its usually a nice followup to a SHaerial, and after any missed move. I'll write an essay on this later.

Zephramrill has it dead on and I have said it once Ill say it again squirtle's jab is the best one out of all the pokes to me. It comes out at 1 frame, you can jab grab with it and you can jab to tilt combos to grabs -> which is everything squirtle is sick at except aerials.
And when testing out hydrojabbing I found that full length hydroplanes with jabs can result in hydro jab grabs which to be honest is just freaking absurd, its almost as good as reverse shift jabs so that as you slide back you hit your opponent with a jab and pull them back with it right into a grab to make reverse shift jab grabs. All this from squirtles jab just makes it so high on the hierarcy of squirtles moves IMO.

 

[Steeler]

you can interrupt squirtle in the middle of his jab shenanigans though...right? and is jab canceling character specific (ie buffering the duck and then grabbing or whatever) or can everyone do it? i remember someone saying that squirtle can't jab cancel...and i was like lolwut??

so yeah

confuzzled

 

[Fearmy]

i love the jab, so fast, so annoying, nice priority...

 

[infomon]

Steeler: At some point I tried really hard to jab-cancel anything with Sonic, and it didn't work out at all, so I'd assume it's character specific. Unless I just suck, lol. I didn't try any other characters' jab-cancels to compare.... but I did try to crouch-cancel as a way to interrupt the jab combo to enable a grab. *shrug*

 

[Fearmy]

squirtle can't really jab-cancel, or atleast when i try it out. I only pull it off by luck when someone likes to Sheild.