Squirtle Tactical Discussion

[chubas]

Waterfall is very useful when you have platforms above and can catch people off-guard. Since is most used for recovery, you won't mind diminishing its attack, its multihit and yeah, has a decent knockback. Thanks to Squirtle being one of the fastfallers, usually they don't have chance to hit you while you are falling (except for fastfalling characters or DI'ed stall-then-fall attacks, like sonic or ZSS). If you have a platform above you, and if it hits, you can safely fall and recover the lag frames after landing.

I don't know if it is as useful for up-B'ing after shield like ocasionally Charizard's.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Unlike Charizard, Squirtle can be sent flying in the 80-90% range by most characters, and Waterfall leaves you in such a position TO be hit. In addition, your recovery lag and their knocked away'd status doesn't really link into anything. If you're going to use it at all, I would reserve Waterfall for the end of a string of aerial barrages. Even then, it sends them flying at a strange trajectorty that isn't necesarily going to push them off the stage very far until a percent where you're better off just using Fair or Dthrow.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Any tips for setting up Squirtle dair? I've used it a few times with very satisfactory results, but I can't seem to do it all the time. Btw, nice tip on the shellshifted jab combo.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I normally short-hop at them and execute it. They either take the hit or let it eat away at their shield for a while, while you end up landing on the other side and staying out of a grab range. It should be pretty easy to land in any situation you would normally use Nair, but will not really let you follow up with anything, so it's a stand alone move at best.

 

[Adriel]

So I was poking through the "True Combo's" of Brawl thread, and I got curious what had been submitted for the Pokemon Trainer. Charizard and Ivysaur had some pretty substandard stuff, but I saw this among the Squirtle list:

Inescapable
B-air > Jab x3/F-tilt (0-61%)

I won't have access to my Wii for a good week, so I'd appreciate it if someone actually tested both variations of this for me. If it's truly inescapable then my opinion of Squirtle will be raised, even if only a small degree.

EDIT: Cut me some slack, I read this late at night, and I see how obvious it is, now. What I was trying to ask if you could loop this combo. I highly doubt it, but does someone want to try it, anyway?

With a fresh Squirtle, I would imagine this combo only working at very low percents, but it seems possible during fatigue. And back-air has "sex kick" properties to it so maybe that combo only works when you hit with the weaker part of the tail.

 

[brentlouis]

wat is hydroplanning

 

[Ryos4]

Idk about the rest of you, since i didnt read the previous posts. But i really like squirtles up tilt. It has in my opinion the greatest combo potential of all of his attacks. Works great on places with platfroms, u can just start the up tilt from below 2 maybe 3, into up air, land on the platforms up tilt some more followed by either uair or an fair to knock them to the edge.

Up tilt just destroys heavy characters. lol.

 

[Kitamerby]

I can't understand Hydroplaning. I've looked at the tutorial and everything, but I just can't understand for some reason. I can only Hydroplane forwards, which is very strange. I can't get the timing for the one where I turn. What animation point should I look out for? I'm really confused.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Hydroplaning is NOT Everything

I've really been thinking about Squirtle lately, as I feel he's my Pokemon that has "slipped behind," of sorts. One thing I think I've been doing too much is the shell-shift. Honestly, I think that in our desperation for any sort of AT, we're over-inflating the Shift. While it has the capability to be useful, I don't think that many people particularly use it as such. I was actually reminded of this today while watching videos of other PT's, but do you ever find you find yourself on the stage waiting out a recovery while shell-shifting back and forth? What purpose does this actually serve? While it may not be particularly noteable, Squirtle CAN edgeguard, and it's foolish not to.

In general play, I really don't see the shell shift being the "go-to" thing to spam while moving. I'm willing to argue that it's more useful to spam SHFF'd jumps with Bair as your main approach, and then using shell-shift as movement as a response to how your opponent reacts. The more you spam shellshift, the more predictable it gets, and then it's not really all that useful, is it?

I'd also like to add that I've started to like Double Jump Fast-fall with Squirtle as an alternative to the short-hop from a large distance.

 

[Toby.]

Yes, yes a thousand times yes!

I strongly agree that pt users too often spam the shellshift and end up sacrificing the important quality of the technique: its unpredictability. That having been said I don't think the usefulness of the move has been over-inflated. If used correctly and to its fullest extent, this is a varied and highly useful technique. We just haven't seen anyone actually using it in the incredible ways that everyone got so caught up on.

And yes, the shifting back and forth on stage is foolishness. It doesn't confuse the opponent at all. Furthermore it actually gives them regular intervals in which you moving away from the stage. I never really understood why someone would bother with such an unecessary manouvre

A double jumped fastfall approach seems a little limiting to me though. Whats the advantage over a standard Sh approach? Or are you talking about FF double jumps as a means of closing the gap between you and them rather than an actual attack?

 

[infernovia]

Its an incredibly nice way to use set up your bair.

 

[Yumil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shellshifting isnt just about spamming it, but mixing it up to make yourself unpredictable. I mean, you can turn pause and half shellshift, too. It varies your approach by quite a bit and throwing in the many tricks from shellshifts makes it hard to predict whats going on. Yes, you'll still try the air approach as well, but the point is not to stick to one pony.

 

[infernovia]

The problem is that everybody starts complaining when a squirtle is not shellshifting, even though the squirtle might be well used.

 

[Toby.]

infernovia: Yes, it does transition really nicely into a sh bair. It's one of my favourites. From my experience the critique about not shellshifting mostly comes about because the player in question hasn't used the technique at all, or has used it very infrequently. In such cases pushing for the inclusion of shellshifting is usually a valid argument, because the technique allows for much needed diversity when used sparingly. But you make a valid point. The board is too focussed on a single technique.

Yumil: You are correct. The problem is that very few players actually play in such a way. It's not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with shellshifting, it's just that most people over use it to the detriment of their game.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Yes, yes a thousand times yes!

That having been said I don't think the usefulness of the move has been over-inflated. If used correctly and to its fullest extent, this is a varied and highly useful technique. We just haven't seen anyone actually using it in the incredible ways that everyone got so caught up on.

A double jumped fastfall approach seems a little limiting to me though. Whats the advantage over a standard Sh approach? Or are you talking about FF double jumps as a means of closing the gap between you and them rather than an actual attack?

I should have used the word "over-used." A hurried scribbling mistake. What I mean is, we're making the connection of "AT" and "GOOD", so we're using it as much as humanly possible, when that actually gives the opponent the chance to read how you do it. Unless you change your pattern every time, you're going to be wearing down the effectiveness.

Not approach, just closing gaps. I'm thinking of DJ'n as soon as possible, so you don't gain the full distance of a real double jump.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shellshifting isnt just about spamming it, but mixing it up to make yourself unpredictable. I mean, you can turn pause and half shellshift, too. It varies your approach by quite a bit and throwing in the many tricks from shellshifts makes it hard to predict whats going on. Yes, you'll still try the air approach as well, but the point is not to stick to one pony.

That's what I'm trying to say. ._.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Oh yeah, I forgot! I had a question I wanted to ask a while back...

Waterfall. Does anyone use it for anything besides recovery? And if so, how? I'm trying to find ways to work it into my game and so far the only thing I do is use it from the ledge. =/

 

[Kemious]

That may very well be the sole reason why squirtle really hasnt improved. Everyone is so focused with it that we well dont see squirtle as much else than a mind game player. I found water fall the perfect attack to use against people who have aerial range on squirtle. They never see it coming does decent damage and will knock em away with enough time for you to recover.

 

[Elliot Gale]

Waterfall is another option for off-stage gimps. That's about all.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Hm...I'm also thinking it might be a good idea to have a list of characters that Squirtle can be grab released by. So far I only know of Yoshi and Ivysaur. Who else sets up the poor turtle for hurt?

 

[Stroupes]

Oh yeah, I forgot! I had a question I wanted to ask a while back...

Waterfall. Does anyone use it for anything besides recovery? And if so, how? I'm trying to find ways to work it into my game and so far the only thing I do is use it from the ledge. =/

Waterfall's great for edge-guarders. As you're coming back up from the ledge, use Waterfall, and the hitbox will take care of that edge-guarder

 

[Elliot Gale]

Ivysaur, Yoshi, and Marth are the ones I know, but Marth is the only one that can actually KILL directly out of the chain release, and it's not even character breaking anyway because Squirtle was already *** in that match-up.

 

[theEffinBear]

At a tournament a week ago, I used Waterfall for a game-two victory vs Marth when I counterpicked to Norfair. I fullhopped from the rightmost platform and rising u-air'd him, doublejumped and u-air'd again, hitting him to about the top of the screen, and then up-B'd for the kill. I think he was only at ~90% when he died off the top.

This exact string of moves is probably pretty specific as to what percentage your opponent must be at for the Waterfall to actually hit and kill, but it happened to work well and was awesome. He then beat me in the third game with Dedede, knocking me into the loser's bracket, but that game two finish was a rather glorious moment.

When being edgeguarded, I find it decently effective to hold "down" while Waterfalling, so that Squirtle keeps doing the move past the edge and hits the edgeguarder with the actual final-hit knockback, giving you a bit more breathing room to set yourself back up on the stage.

/RtEB
I think avoided being grabbed while Squirtle, though credit there should go more to Norfair's layout.

 

[Retro Gaming]

By the way guys, I'm pretty sure Squirtle can chaingrab Marth for far more than three throws. It's looking to be a total of four or maybe even five, and I'm making this observation from a fresh Squirtle on a 0% Marth. It needs more testing because if I can I get Squirtle out as fast as possible and if Squirtle comes in there's almost always a large amount of residual damage from Charizard.

All three Pokemon have such good grab games. <3 (Barring the fact that Squirtle has some difficulty getting the initial grab)

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Cool.... how do you exactly chaingrab marth??? and by the way, his shield-dashing grab has some good range

 

[Onxy]

Ivy
Ike
Zelda
Shiek
Falcon
Gannondorf
Yoshi
Marth
Peach
Birthday Suit (infinite)
Wario
Bowser
DK
Snake
King Dedede

Can all grab release Squirtle.... Stupid, I know.

 

[BLI7ZARD]

Squirtle Is Awesome

Squirtle Can Rack Up Some Serious Damage. His Dthrow Is Great. Maybe You Could Uptilt+uptilt+uair+uair Or Something Like That. There Are Many Advantages Squirtle Has Like Size. Btw I Love His Specials. In Training Mode I Got Up To 55% With A Combo Like The One Previously Mentioned. Its Probably Easily Escapable But Try It Out.

MY MAINS BRAWL CODE 4038 5688 0779

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

My strategy with squirtle is mostly hit-and-run and grabs. It's good to stay moving and mix up your movements with foxtrots, shellshifts, and dashes.

 

[Elliot Gale]

More or less what Tim said. Squirtle needs to keep it random, and since you can do anything out of a shell shift, you can keep them guessing.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I Like Squirtle's Empty Short-hop.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

what??

10huhs?

 

[Retro Gaming]

Short-hopping and doing nothing out of it. Good for baiting. <3

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Why bait? You usually want to keep some space with Squirtle unless they have a good projectile game.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I still keep space by baiting an attack and then using the tip of the tail on Ftilt to score a hit. It can even open up some grabs.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I mostly just shuffle around them using aerials and grabs. I can do plenty of 0-Kills against most chars.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Best jab in the game. His AAA combo is my primary attack. You can imagine that my Squirtle gets really tired fast.

But it comes out on FRAME 1.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Full-jump Fair towards an opponent, DI away.

Someone that's not me try it.

 

[Charizard92]

I think I always do that.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

you didnt know that retro?? its important because you can scape of shielgrabs, btw, it also works with bair

 

[typh]

i do this all the time for shield pressure, not even an olimar can grab you if you do it right

 

[Retro Gaming]

'kay guys I like curved or slanted stages for Squirtle. He seems to slide some ridiculous distance when he hits an aerial to something like that.

• Yoshi's Island (Melee)
• Green Hill Zone

I don't know why I made a two-thing list.