SSBM - TAS vs. TAS

[Grim Tuesday]

I've been watching some Melee TAS videos recently, most notably the brilliant Adventure. And I came up with the idea for 2 people to have a match where both players can take it in turns to advance their character's movement frame by frame. Something like this:
1. Start Game
2. Pause Game
3. Both players examine position of themselves.
4. Both players think of the best move possible in that situation.
5. Both players tell someone else their moves, that person then inputs the command for both of thos people.
6. Rinse and repeat.

Now, while I have the ability to do what I just said, I have never attempted a TAS before and if I did, it would probably suck.

So my questions are:
1. Would this be interesting?
2. Would this be possible?
3. Would this be probable?
4. Is anyone bored enough to give it a shot?

~Tuesday

 

[bobson]

The result is both players would maybe move a little bit and then never do anything because it's impossible to get an opening from either player and the first one who does anything will get 0-deathed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The result is both players would maybe move a little bit and then never do anything because it's impossible to get an opening from either player and the first one who does anything will get 0-deathed.

Ah, I thought something like that.
Oh well, ignore me.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

New thought, not all characters can 0-Death, say a Pichu vs. Pichu match?

 

[BloodBowler]

Very possible, not just Pichu ditto either. The TAS vs TAS has crossed my mind, here's a couple of thoughts I hope will help:

1. Don't have people call out their moves to someone else, it would also mean telling your opponent what you are going to do, and trying to circumvent that would just create problems. My idea:

Two people playing TAS as per normal, but have maybe a third person who exclusively controls the advancement of frames, if not, have both agree on a set time in which to advance each frame.

2. No offence bobson but I disagree, on both players immediately 0-deathing. You still have the idea of player fallibility and skill level to take into account. You aren't making the players who are playing any better at melee, you are just making them a lot faster and more technical. Good players can will be able to find a way to advance (assuming advancing is the best option) under almost any circumstance. Failing that, use characters devoid of projectiles (Falcon, Ganon, Marth, etc.)

Frame by frame advancement would make perfect DI quite achieveable, your players would have to think a lot harder about their combos, which would be that much harder to execute. Yes 0-deathing is much more possible, but rapid smash DI is also possible. You may find new ways out of 0-death combos, experiment.

Worst comes to the worst, do several matches, mix up the characters. Pichu v Pichu sounds boring as hell, even if it would be frame perfect.

3. Interesting? Definitely. One person doing TAS has been seen over and over again, CPUs follow strict rules and will forever be incapable of adapting to the concept of frame perfect actions and reactions. People on the other hand have adaptibility, learning and using TAS an impossible level of speed. You would have to spend a LOT of time to develop this idea, but I would definitely watch.

4. Is it probable? That depends on who you find ready to do it, how long your match is, the skill of the players involved, any hitches you find along the way and how you deal with them. It will take you HOURS to complete a 4 stock match and the end result may not be worth the time, it definitely won't be the first time you do it. So probability is equal to the dedication of whoever is on your team of videomakers and players.

Scripting will help the final editing process, although I assume you already know this.


That's about it for now, I'll check back often because this sounds like an amazing idea. Have you done TAS recording before?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Like I said in the OP, I was just putting forward an idea, not volunteering.
While I have Dolphin and a Melee ROM, I've never done a TAS before and would probably be very bad at it, I don't have that much knowledge of ATs and stuff as well.

So, what we would need are:
1. Dolphin
2. SSBM ROM
3. 2 Experienced Players
4. A Recorder

Sounds probable, I imagine Captain Falcon vs. Captain Falcon would make an interesting match, I doubt he can 0-Death consistently.

I guess this has now turned into a recruitment thread or something, I'm willing to be the middle-man but I'm sure someone else would be better at it.

 

[BloodBowler]

Anyone can do it, you don't even need Dolphin if you have Action Replay. It is a LOT of work to put in but I reckon it could be the start of something, someone just needs to take the first step.

Also you may not need two experienced players, JPleal10 (On youtube) has done some amazing TAS vs TAS in smash64. I reccomend looking it up.

 

[GHNeko]

The only way a TAS vs TAS can be as interesting as possible is if its planned out step by step.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only way a TAS vs TAS can be as interesting as possible is if its planned out step by step.

I have to agree, so someone would need to script a fight...
I'll do some research on TAS's and try and work something out.

 

[EPsilon933]

JPleal10 already kind of made a TAS vs TAS fight. It looks a bit scripted since he showed off a lot with DI and at at least one point Ness walked in place with nothing to do. I guess you could follow his strategy, basically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLRzDQo4BPg

 

[Justblaze647]

^64 doesn't count^

That aside, epic display

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Watching video now...

 

[dashdancedan]

A scripted Fox v Falco would be pretty cool.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A scripted Fox v Falco would be pretty cool.

I'm thinking a Fox vs. Falco as well, I was also thinking maybe Ice CLimbers vs. Ice Climbers, they'd probably have some very exciting strategies.

 

[BloodBowler]

Dittos would be less interesting I reckon, variation in characters gives you variation in tricks and techniques.

TAS vs TAS is viable with any character, they all have some sort of advanced techniques and frame-dependent combos, even if they can only exist against a certain character.

The Yoshi vs Link TAS fight is what I meant, but notice he used some of the lower tier characters to do it and it still looks amazing. Everyone has seen Falco and Fox go nuts, everyone has seen Adventure and Zero Mercy. In the same vein; Zelghandi, Frankenstine and Berserker. Be original and use some characters NOT taken to their extremes.

I don't think scripting is necessary if you have more than one player, anyone with enough skill to be an effective TAS player would have a good idea of how to approach, priority, stage control, etc. JPleal10's TAS vs TAS match was scripted as he admitted, however the reason being he was the only person playing. I don't think you need to script to make TAS look good, you just need to use what TAS allows you to do in an effective and flashy manner.

 

[Tamoo]

why did you put this in brawl vid disc. lol?

Anyway, interesting concept, i'd be interested to see it pan out. Maybe samus vs ICs could be interesting?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ok, Samus vs. Ice Climbers is sounding really good in my head, now we need suggestions for a stage, preferably one that can be taken advantage of in certain places to combo the opponent against hazards and stuff.

It's true that a non-scripted fight could work, but scripted would probably look better, and that is the whole point of TAS.

And I put it in Brawl Vids by accident.

 

[Tamoo]

Things like frame perfect teching may prevent hazard combos :/

It would be fun to see it on a stage not usually playable on lol if thats possible, like majora's mask or something

 

[Hax]

how is perfect vs perfect possible? the reason tas' work on cpu's is because they have set patterns.. humans don't. what would constitute as a perfect response to a perfect action? what would constitute as a perfect action to an opponent who moves perfectly?

if this worked somehow that'd be amazing, i have my hopes

 

[Grim Tuesday]

how is perfect vs perfect possible? the reason tas' work on cpu's is because they have set patterns.. humans don't. what would constitute as a perfect response to a perfect action? what would constitute as a perfect action to an opponent who moves perfectly?

if this worked somehow that'd be amazing, i have my hopes

Did you watch the video on the first page?

 

[demodemo]

whatever happens as long as there is a tas falcon in it, i'm down

 

[strawhats]

someone should do marth in TAS scripted.

 

[Boxob.]

Hate to rain on your parade. But two SMART players would make for a not fun to watch match.

SDI down and tech EVERYTHING lol.

 

[skrach8]

you should do a match with ness vs. falcon..... pick a winner. script it out....if ur gunna do it by urself. have them trade stocks as to show how **** one can be to the other IF they were perfect, well perfect on every other stock.

the match should include: power shielding, tons of techs/edge gaurds, shield pressure like a mother fuka, ledge canceling, etc. etc.

i would love to see Ness' full potential unleashed, shield breaking and all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

you should do a match with ness vs. falcon..... pick a winner. script it out....if ur gunna do it by urself. have them trade stocks as to show how **** one can be to the other IF they were perfect, well perfect on every other stock.

the match should include: power shielding, tons of techs/edge gaurds, shield pressure like a mother fuka, ledge canceling, etc. etc.

i would love to see Ness' full potential unleashed, shield breaking and all.

Whichever character I use, I want to exploit some crazy combos with their ATs, that is why I suggested Ice Climbers. Are there any other characters who have an interesting technique to be abused by TAS?

 

[GHNeko]

Fox, Falco, Falcon, Link, Mewtwo, Samus, and if you abuse RNG for Items, Peach, would generally the most interesting to watch.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox, Falco, Falcon, Link, Mewtwo, Samus, and if you abuse RNG for Items, Peach, would generally the most interesting to watch.

Fox - Awesome ATs, but everyone has seen Fox do crazy **** to death.
Falcon - Not sure about this one...
Link - Boomerang/Bomb combos sound cool.
Mewtwo - Not sure about this one either...
Samus - I can imagine this on FD with SWD, but that's about all.
Peach - What's RNG?

So far I'm still thinking Ice Climbers would be interesting with their de-synching, and I'm an Ice Climbers main so this would generally be easier for me as well. Link could work, but I'm not really sure, never really seen him being played to his full extent.

 

[strawhats]

like I said TAS marth...just because I'm a marth main.

 

[_lemons]

Fox - Awesome ATs, but everyone has seen Fox do crazy **** to death.
Falcon - Not sure about this one...
Link - Boomerang/Bomb combos sound cool.
Mewtwo - Not sure about this one either...
Samus - I can imagine this on FD with SWD, but that's about all.
Peach - What's RNG?

So far I'm still thinking Ice Climbers would be interesting with their de-synching, and I'm an Ice Climbers main so this would generally be easier for me as well. Link could work, but I'm not really sure, never really seen him being played to his full extent.

Random Number Generator. It determines what kind of Turnip Peach will get.

Edit: I vote for Peach, because frame perfect FC Nairs are awesome

 

[Zolios]

FYI:

One second is 60 frames.

Traditionally, a game lasts around 3 minutes.

3 x 60 = 180

180 x 60 = 10,800

10,800 frames.

And that's just for a regular game where flaws are countless.

Performing such a video would take ~ 500 hours in the making. And the video created wouldn't really be too amazing.

 

[NoAh MenQui]

Player vs Player TAS

[SSBB] Falcon(anonymous) vs MetaKnight(anonymous) [TAS]

This match shows that Vanilla Brawl is just hard to play lol, I mean, humans can't do this without TAS

Epic match is epic and who ever did it is amazing