St.Louis Area Discussion Thread

[Lixivium]

You know, I think Sakurai must have hypnotized Kyle or something at GDC. Before Brawl came out, Kyle was the most anti-Brawl smasher in St. Louis. Then he gets a signed controller from Sakurai and all of a sudden he's drinking the kool-aid of a bright, happy world where nobody ever loses a game.

you know the E for all demo had Crouch Canceling, Fast Falling to L-cancel moves, Dash Dancing, more hit stun, among other things that gimpyfish and dsf told me, but they decided to take it all away. Sakurai WENT OUT OF HIS WAY to make it not competitive, regardless of if melee being competitive was an accident or not, THE END RESULT is that brawl is way less skillbased of a fighter than melee is.

The game I worked on, Smash Bros., is a fighting game, but keeping in mind such reasoning, I set out to make sure the game did not over-emphasize the notions of victory and defeat. I won't go into too much detail, but the game was built so that if a player is strong in combat, just doing the same thing over and over again won't guarantee they'll always win over their opponents. There is a mechanism of accidents occurring, balanced so that the game's progress and results falter easily.

Unless a game is truly broken or unbalanced, if a player finds an effective technique/tactic, the appropriate thing is for other players to come up with ways to counter it, not for the designer to coddle them by removing options for everybody playing. Unfortunately this is Sakurai's idea of "competitiveness", to handicap everybody so no one has to feel bad.

 

[Lixivium]

*double post*

 

[Lixivium]

*triple post*

 

[Lixivium]

*I swear to God I only clicked "Quick Reply" twice.*

 

[darkatma]

so THAT's why you have way more post count than me

 

[brawlpro]

You know, I think Sakurai must have hypnotized Kyle or something at GDC. Before Brawl came out, Kyle was the most anti-Brawl smasher in St. Louis. Then he gets a signed controller from Sakurai and all of a sudden he's drinking the kool-aid of a bright, happy world where nobody ever loses a game.

According to aim convo's he didn't seem that anti brawl to me before he went to gdc.

 

[Thinkaman]

You know, I think Sakurai must have hypnotized Kyle or something at GDC. Before Brawl came out, Kyle was the most anti-Brawl smasher in St. Louis. Then he gets a signed controller from Sakurai and all of a sudden he's drinking the kool-aid of a bright, happy world where nobody ever loses a game.

Heh, a few points:

-I was never anti-Brawl... my attitude was always "Meh, I hope it's good/balanced." You must be confusing me with someone else.
-Kool-aid is for Mac users.
-My world is one where losing a game is a good thing and should be accepted; there can be no winning without losing. Sakurai apparently feels the same way. We all agree on this... The scrub view is that losing is bad or evil and is something that should be avoided.

Unless a game is truly broken or unbalanced, if a player finds an effective technique/tactic, the appropriate thing is for other players to come up with ways to counter it, not for the designer to coddle them by removing options for everybody playing. Unfortunately this is Sakurai's idea of "competitiveness", to handicap everybody so no one has to feel bad.

B.S.

Brawl is not some patch that is being applied to Melee to take out techniques/tactics, not something targetted at players. It is a new game. If I sounds like I am repeating myself here, what does that say about your argument?

Listen, that paragraph sounds EXACTLY, word-for-word, like the argument noobs make about items. "wtf taking options outta the game adapt u noobs" Sakurai designed a game, since that is what he does. You can take it or leave it. However, to pass judgement on a game that has been out for less than a month seems... it sounds like your mind was made up from the start.

 

[Lixivium]

-My world is one where losing a game is a good thing and should be accepted; there can be no winning without losing. Sakurai apparently feels the same way. We all agree on this... The scrub view is that losing is bad or evil and is something that should be avoided.

*DOES NOT COMPUTE*

Maybe I need to shake hands with Sakurai first, but I'm not getting how Brawl is supposed to make you feel good about losing. If anything, it's made losing slightly worse because I feel I have less control over my character, less options for doing just about anything, and less likelihood to get better.

Listen, that paragraph sounds EXACTLY, word-for-word, like the argument noobs make about items. "wtf taking options outta the game adapt u noobs"

So...you're arguing for the use of items? I'm confused.

Let me just state for the record that I don't think there's anything inherently unbalanced about items, just so you can't say I'm some kind of a hypocrite. Notice I said "if the game were not truly unbalanced"; that applies to individual elements of a game as well. I would have no problem playing with some items, just not dumb ones like the Hammer, Dragoon, Invincibility Star, Final Smashes, etc.

L-canceling, wavedashing, dash dancing, edgeguarding, etc., did not detract from Melee, they added to it, and taking them out EN MASSE is baffling and unnecessary. Well, I guess not so baffling given Sakurai's mindset, but it still doesn't make for a better, more enjoyable game.

Sakurai designed a game, since that is what he does. You can take it or leave it. However, to pass judgement on a game that has been out for less than a month seems... it sounds like your mind was made up from the start.

Please, Brawl is not going to radically change in the future. It will still be slow, and it could just as easily be more campy as it could be less campy.

If people do come up with exploitable tactics, that's only going to hurt the game's vaunted "balance", but it's not going to make me feel any better, because the lesser characters have no options to get around such tactics.



Let me just close with this:

Brawl isn't about camping as much as "Air Control" like jigglypuff in melee. Potentially making most competitive matches incredibly boring like jigglypuff dittos were in melee. There really is never a reason to advance unless you are playing as like MetaKnight, Marth, Game n' Watch, and Wario. Oh and Kirby until you get your opponents powers. As far of the rest of the characters it is wading in and out waiting for an attack some people don't view this as camping but I do just like Dash Dance camping in melee which I happened to do...

...It's just that Brawl literally feels like Jigglypuff dittos almost every game which is terrible IMO. The lack of hitstun ruins the combo game sure you can argue you get combos in Brawl, but in all honesty they aren't combos I have gotten combos but I know it's because my opponent messed up more than me actually being good.

I can see why a Jigglypuff player like yourself will like this style of play, but call me a philistine, I just can't get into it. I would have less of a problem with Brawl overall if it wasn't such a chore just to get a hit in or make a safe approach without camping. I guess I'm just a lazy player who doesn't deserve the revelation that is Brawl.

 

[Qual]

oh hai guys.

Let's hang out some time.

 

[Zig-Zag!]

First off, meeting Sakruai doesn't mean crap to the argument.

Also, quoting M2k and Big C as your two sources of expertise is kind of like going to President Bush and a local saturday morning DJ for your opinion on the economy.

Let me say this guys. I've been playing this game competitively longer than anyone here, except for Treppy, so maybe that's why I feel the way I do. But as most calculated and well developed sequels TEND to be, I just feel that Brawl is a better game than Melee.

Why?

Because Brawl is more fun. It has more production value, it has more flair, it has more everything. Playing Melee now feels like I'm playing a demo for Brawl. The only thing Melee has going for it is the fact that we are all so very familiar with it. Anybody claiming to have a final verdict on Brawl is stupid. Anyone who claims to be great at Brawl is stupid.

I love Brawl

Hell, if you guys were around long enough, you would remember the days when people had the "final verdicts" on melee. You would remember how Shiek was 100% unbeatable, how grabs were completely pointless, and how spot dodging was a waste of time. You may argue we didn't have any advance techniques to go on from before, thus making it more obvious how much legs Brawl will have compared to what we knew about Melee. To me, that just sounds like you gave Brawl a month to prove itself to be Melee, or else you were through. I can almost guarantee you that in one to two years time, the game you are playing now and the game you will be playing then will be entirely different.

Go play Melee if you like it so much. To me, despite having cool physics that opened up a new level of gameplay and creating some of the fondest memories of my life, I don't feel melee is really all that relevant anymore. I love it, yes. But I just can't stop playing Brawl.

I don't miss wavedashing.

I don't miss L Canceling.

I don't miss Melee.

 

[GenoBlast]

First off, meeting Sakruai doesn't mean crap to the argument.

Also, quoting M2k and Big C as your two sources of expertise is kind of like going to President Bush and a local saturday morning DJ for your opinion on the economy.

Let me say this guys. I've been playing this game competitively longer than anyone here, except for Treppy, so maybe that's why I feel the way I do. But as most calculated and well developed sequels TEND to be, I just feel that Brawl is a better game than Melee.

Why?

Because Brawl is more fun. It has more production value, it has more flair, it has more everything. Playing Melee now feels like I'm playing a demo for Brawl. The only thing Melee has going for it is the fact that we are all so very familiar with it. Anybody claiming to have a final verdict on Brawl is stupid. Anyone who claims to be great at Brawl is stupid.

I love Brawl

Hell, if you guys were around long enough, you would remember the days when people had the "final verdicts" on melee. You would remember how Shiek was 100% unbeatable, how grabs were completely pointless, and how spot dodging was a waste of time. You may argue we didn't have any advance techniques to go on from before, thus making it more obvious how much legs Brawl will have compared to what we knew about Melee. To me, that just sounds like you gave Brawl a month to prove itself to be Melee, or else you were through. I can almost guarantee you that in one to two years time, the game you are playing now and the game you will be playing then will be entirely different.

Go play Melee if you like it so much. To me, despite having cool physics that opened up a new level of gameplay and creating some of the fondest memories of my life, I don't feel melee is really all that relevant anymore. I love it, yes. But I just can't stop playing Brawl.

I don't miss wavedashing.

I don't miss L Canceling.

I don't miss Melee.

Says the guy whose characters are all good now but weren't all that great in melee =\ +shiek was never really that bad... only for Pika.

moving on
I agree with Lixi on this logic. Thinkaman used jiggs AND ONLY jiggs, in melee, and we all know jiggs plays quite a bit differently than the rest of the cast. My mentioning of kyle playing strictly jiggs may seem like a stupid point but I think this is the root of the problem. She plays so differently that Thinkaman really doesn't have the experience of playing with the speed and technique that is Melee. (For Thinkaman Brawl is Melee 2.0.....)

Thinkaman, you may have met Sakurai and we have not, but Gimpy, Lixi, and I all have more competitive smash experience than you. I believe you have no right, nor does it mean anything to us if you wave that flag around in our faces.

but anyway, great post earlier Thinkaman, I would have a stronger argument for all but I really dont feel like brawl is worth my time =\.

oh and BTW Zig, I started competitive smash a year before you =P
VGames July 24th-25th, 2004 WOOO!!

 

[TTT]

ITT: HURRRRRRRRRR DURRRRRRRRRR. Also, DERP.

 

[GenoBlast]

Arise chicken, arise, chicken arise chicken, chicken arise.

 

[Zig-Zag!]

Says the guy whose characters are all good now but weren't all that great in melee =\ +shiek was never really that bad... only for Pika.

moving on
I agree with Lixi on this logic. Thinkaman used jiggs AND ONLY jiggs, in melee, and we all know jiggs plays quite a bit differently than the rest of the cast. My mentioning of kyle playing strictly jiggs may seem like a stupid point but I think this is the root of the problem. She plays so differently that Thinkaman really doesn't have the experience of playing with the speed and technique that is Melee. (For Thinkaman Brawl is Melee 2.0.....)

Thinkaman, you may have met Sakurai and we have not, but Gimpy, Lixi, and I all have more competitive smash experience than you. I believe you have no right, nor does it mean anything to us if you wave that flag around in our faces.

but anyway, great post earlier Thinkaman, I would have a stronger argument for all but I really dont feel like brawl is worth my time =\.

oh and BTW Zig, I started competitive smash a year before you =P
VGames July 24th-25th, 2004 WOOO!!

This just in: Peach and Mario in Melee "not all that great".

Also, being competitive in Smash means playing and knowing good people. What the **** is vgames?

I <3 you Geno, and I <3 Melee too. But I am diagnosing you with a case of denial. Smash is not serious business, despite what doing it for so long may cause you to believe. Please learn how to play this new game if you want to maintain yourself in the community...it's really fun. You should try it.

 

[TTT]

LOL definitely just lol'ed .....ARISE CHICKEN, CHICKEN...ARISE. But still...u guys are being dumb about this.....(GENO) stop arguing about stupid **** and just play smash. Have fun with everybody like usual.

 

[GenoBlast]

I have said countless times that I enjoy playing brawl... for fun. But I've already decided i'm not going to play it competitively.

and the Vgames is that tournament that I beat Jesi and lost to that stupid singing peach player on that pipe stage that they just HAD to bring back and put in brawl.... it stall haunts me.

but anyway, I had fun playing brawl at your place TTT the other day, but I just dont understand why everyone is blind to the fact that this game was MADE to NOT BE a COMPETITIVE GAME by the CREATOR HIMSELF. (horrible sentence structure but its late and i dont care.)

And I <3 you too Zig, come back to STL already!!!

 

[Dekuschrub]

Melee is better than brawl. I am confused as to the supposed "mindgames" that are opened up by brawl... Everything you can do in brawl you can do in melee... just better...



either way... im gettin pretty good at brawl... but i just dont care as much anymore

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Zig just cleaned up this argument. I feel that bickering any more would serve no purpose and make no progress towards everyone's goal of playign the game and having fun.

However, I do have to clarify that me meeting Sakurai does NOT give me a high horse to dismiss anyone else or make me better or mean anything. That is not why I brought it up. It was because people are saying that Sakurai is actually waging a public war against competitive play and saying that he wants to "destroy" it... and if you tell me Sakurai hates competitive play and doesn't care about, when Sakurai told me the opposite at GDC, I'm going to believe Sakurai.

It wasn't "I met Sakurai: You're opinions are wrong!", it was "I met Sakurai: making up stuff about what he supposedly thinks isn't going to work on me because I know the truth." You don't have to enjoy Brawl of course, or think it is competitive... just don't outright lie and make up crap about the guy.

EDIT:

I have said countless times that I enjoy playing brawl... for fun. But I've already decided i'm not going to play it competitively.

Hahaha, yeah right! If you guys talked me into going to MSOP, I think we'll be able to drag you along to stuff. I mean, are you honestly telling me that when everyone else is planning to drive up to FC, you are just gonna sit at home and play against level 9 Luigi?

Level 9 Luigi is pretty awesome I admit, but this bluff is getting called right now. You sound like viperboy!

 

[treppy]

YOSHI FOREVER​

 

[TTT]

wii would like to play

 

[GenoBlast]

So your saying that sakurai is a lier then? because it seems what he said to you was the exact opposite of what he said in the article, (view Sakurai's quote in Lixi's post).

We all know that Sakurai has been saying he wants to "tone down" the game play and make it "easier to play" I think we're all heard this since the beginning. Its just that now theirs an article written by the man himself that states his intentions.

Why do you think he put such emphasis on items in brawl? How come characters kill at upwards of 200% while items can kill at 0. Its because he really just wants to focus on the fun of the game and he thinks the only way to do that is to take out the competitive elements. This is what baffles me, a game can be both fun and competitive.

Hahaha, yeah right! If you guys talked me into going to MSOP, I think we'll be able to drag you along to stuff. I mean, are you honestly telling me that when everyone else is planning to drive up to FC, you are just gonna sit at home and play against level 9 Luigi?:

I plan on becoming the next Jeff (treppy) in the sense that I will still go to tournaments with you guys but not actually compete. Weather in be due to lack of interest in the game or me just being cheap, ill be around for the fun but not the competition. I still love the smash community and all the people that are in it, not even brawl could change my opinion on this.

who knows, might run into a few melee tournaments along the way.

 

[UltimateShinigami]

hey, has anyone read that huge thread about heavy brawl?

 

[Zig-Zag!]

hey, has anyone read that huge thread about heavy brawl?

Heavy Brawl is okay, but what I REALLY wanted was for the game to resemble Smash 64. I turned it on super sudden death mode, so now my throws kill again. It pretty much fixed the game for me.

 

[MuBa]

I've been playing Smash 64 recently and all I have to say is I am actually pretty good with Captain Falcon and Fox o_O;

 

[null]

I'm telling you guys, Soul Calibur is where it's at!

That or King of Fighters...







yeah!

 

[brawlpro]

Lul how's ur basement Geno?

 

[GenoBlast]

My basement is good now.
unfortunately though I'm pretty busy until about mid April. After that I'll try holding some stuff again.

 

[null]

Quick! To Random's!

 

[Dekuschrub]

eeheee heeeeeeeee

starrcrafttttt gooo!

at least marth is still good yay!!

actually i plan on doing some tourney travel this summer... who wants to come?!

 

[Thinkaman]

actually i plan on doing some tourney travel this summer... who wants to come?!

St Louis be trippin'! No trip johns though.

 

[brawlpro]

Alright ladies, the matches from that gamecrazy tourney that happened a year or two ago, are all gonna be up by leik.... the end of this week.

 

[Dekuschrub]

yessssssssssssss

 

[darkatma]

Yay uhhh, 3 more days till I fly over there lol.
Definitely gonna have culture shock.. going from a 75% asian school to a 14%asian school

Oh yea, now would be a good time to PM me some contact/dorm info, so I'll be able to meet some of you guys Do cell phones work halfway across the country? I've never tried.

 

[Book!]

Hey guys. My name's Zach and I'm a freshman at Wash U. My friends and I play Melee in our dorm building's common room pretty pretty regularly. We're not great, but we've been beaten on by the likes of Toga and Thinkaman and we know the basics. It would be fun to play with you guys if you end up getting together this week (or any other week).

To Darkatma, an early welcome to St. Louis!

 

[Lixivium]

Since Geno's not going to be hosting this week people are probably going to end up at Toga/Andy/Wale's dorm. I have a feeling it's going to be cramped...

I may head over to WashU Wednesday evening if you guys will be playing, PM me your phone number so I can contact you.

 

[BrawlChampBro]

I play Melee competitively, I haven't decided if I should buy Brawl yet. What do you guys think? For reference, I main Dr. Mario.

 

[darkatma]

wednesday o_O?
I wanna play too, but I dont get there till thursday.
I think my friends already have their host infos, but I dont

 

[StellaNova]

Yo, Zell here.... just found this discussion thread lol. wanted to say hi to everyone. cant wait to get back to st. louis for summer

 

[darkatma]

Finally smashboards starts working for me again

okay cools I just recieved my rooming info
Apparently I'm hosted by a Jeffery Rotando in the Umrath house
lol
Hrm instead of PMing me, why don't you guys just IM me and give me some contact info? I'm not trusting the reliability of smashboards right now. My AIM is darkatmawpon


@ Brawlchampro: depends, go give the game a try, it's quite a bit different from melee. I would suggest getting the game anyways: as a competitive player you'll already know the general physics of the game, even though they are different.

 

[Apollo]

I should be available to play a bit this week. Definitely more next week. I'm in the Village. PM me or IM me at Jeffsloth