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Stage Information Database and Q&A

Dr. R.O.Botnik

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I started a thread about Skyworld, but it only got 2 replies and no real discussion, so I'll just repost the text here.

I really don't see what's so bad about Skyworld. I get the caves of life argument, but can't characters that are vulnerable to it just destroy the top platform? It only takes 40%. Aside from the platform properties, it has a fairly normal layout and normal blast lines. I'm not saying it should definitely be allowed (I would hate for any more stages to be added, since the CP system itself is a huge gimmick anyway), but is it really that much worse than stages like JJ and Port Town, which were legal for a long time?
 

-LzR-

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Yes it is, much much worse. Ground games become total crap or become crazy since the floors make them last years. Many characters will gimp themselves and the first one to fail a tech is going to die.
Also the semi circle is that bad.
 

Dre89

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I just realised how funny it would be if people applied brawl stage logic to pro fighting.

I know everyone outside of Japan thinks it's ridiculous to only play on stages that are purely about fighting where you don't have to fight the stage as well, but the logic is pretty funny if you apply it to pro fighting.

"Not every fight should be in the traditional UFC cage because it favours aggressive strikers who like to close the distance".

"We should also be able to fight in a ring with uneven ground that has a tiger chained to a corner".
 

-LzR-

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I would actually start to watch those damn fight shows if they had stuff like Trampolines and ****. Also needs bouncing basketballs. They can adapt.
 

Dre89

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Some guy dominates the fight. Opponent gets one jab on him and he falls near the tiger and gets mauled.

"He should have avoided the tiger".

I remember once on Halberd I was dominating my opponent, and I got grabbed and that claw thing hit me and KO'd me at like 60%.

People said to me 'you should have avoided it'.

Yeah, because despite having like an 80% lead, and the countless times I probably grabbed him, me getting grabbed once makes him a better player than me.

It's like if there's a martial arts fight, and one guy is dominating his opponent, and then someone throws in a flamethrower, the losing guy picks it up and uses it on his opponent to win. Apparently the guy with the flamethrower is the better martial artist.

Dat brawl stage logic.
 

Raziek

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Suck less.

Seriously.

The claw has like 9 MINUTES of windup. (obv exaggeration)

If you really couldn't avoid getting grabbed with THAT much warning, you deserved it.
 

Dre89

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Suck less.

Seriously.

The claw has like 9 MINUTES of windup. (obv exaggeration)

If you really couldn't avoid getting grabbed with THAT much warning, you deserved it.
"So despite the fact you dominated your opponent, the fact he grabbed you in this specific time period makes him the better player".

By this logic you could also say you should never get grabbed by ICs.

If it's reasonable to expect to avoid being grabbed when pretty much everything on the stage is neutral (eg. when the claw is about to strike), then it should be reasonable to always avoid IC's grab.

If verse ICs on SV and get grabbed once and lose a stock, I don't suck.

If I verse any other character on Halberd, and get grabbed once at the exact same time on the clock as I did against ICs on SV, and get KO'd by the claw, I suck.

So do you think pro fights should have arenas with uneven ground and a tiger chained to a corner, or should have weapons randomly thrown into the arena?
 

Raziek

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Does an ICs grab give you at least 5 seconds of warning?

Didn't think so.

You have AMPLE time to prepare for the claw, and even take advantage of it yourself.

Your opponent is even FORCED to prepare for it just the same as you are. If they grabbed you, you got outplayed.
 

Dre89

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Did my opponent give me 5 seconds warning before grabbing me?

A grab isn't that hard to land, and due to the stage he got an unnaturally high reward off the grab that his character isn't normally capable of. He basically used a weapon.

So seeing as there is the same amount or warning for an IC's grab and any other chars grab, the logic still applies. If I get grabbed once by ICs and lose a stock, I don't suck. If I get grabbed once by any other char on Halberd, at the same time on the clock as against ICs, and get KO'd by claw, I suck.

And they didn't prepare for it, they just grabbed me and it happened to hit me. It wasn't a case of them outsmarting me or baiting me into it, just luck on their part. It's like tackling someone to the ground in a fight and someone happening to drop a brick on their head.

It doesn't have to be a grab either. I could have been in knockback, hitsun from a projectile, just powershielded an projectile, just powershielded an attack etc.

And saying that the opponent has to prepare for it doesn't work either. As I demonstrated with the martial arts fight, I could be dominating an opponent. If someone throws in a flamethrower, even though it was technically accessible to both of us, does the fact that he managed to grab it first and use it on me to win make him the better martial artist?
 
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I don't think a UFC match is designed with the intention that people watch out for the tiger in the corner like how Brawl was. Brawl was designed with the intention that people play with added variables during combat. If being the best Brawl player means that I have to use the flamethrower in the stage to my advantage, then it's okay to consider myself a better Brawl player for capitalizing on that variable.

It works for Gears of War right?
 

Dre89

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Then you might as well play with items.

Competitive brawl tries to be like pro fighting as much as possible.

It tries to be as fair as possible, with the least amount of random factors possible.

:phone:
 

Tesh

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I think the Halberd example was pretty bad. I think even if you DI down and use a special, you can't die at 60 to the claw can you?

Halberd gives you so much warning before the hazards, that complaining about them is almost like complaining about the SV platform showing up and ruining you juggle/grab release/edgeguard etc.

I've had many edgeguards go wrong because of that damn platform.
 

Dre89

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It doesn't matter what the percent is, the point is I got KO'd earlier than usual.

As I said before, you don't get a warning before the opponent grabs you.

I refer back to the ICs example. If I get grabbed once by ICs and lose a stock, I don't suck. If I get grabbed on Halberd with same time on the clock and get clawed, apparently I suck.

:phone:
 

Akaku94

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If you get grabbed once by the ICs and lose a stock, you do suck to a certain extent. You have to know the stage just like you have to know your opponent and his char. As much as we hate to admit it, Brawl is inherently PvPvS, by nature of the fact that no two stages are the same. Unless we play on only one stage (a terrible idea), we are required to know the details of the stage we play on. On RC, you have to know that the stage scrolls, and have a general idea of which platforms are better than others. On FD, you have to know how the ledges affect your recovery, and how to approach/defend in the absence of platforms. Regardless of stage, the goal is to maximize your advantages while minimizing your disadvantages; using hazards and avoiding bad stages for your char is a fairly large part of that. To claim that Brawl shouldn't have any stage interaction (i.e. hazards) is absurd, because hazards are just as much a part of stages as platforms or ledges.

Essentially, "learn the stage and quit whining" does apply to several of the "cheap" or "gay" stages, and to deny that stages and their various elements are an integral part of Brawl is delusional at best.
 

Tesh

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It doesn't matter what the percent is, the point is I got KO'd earlier than usual.

As I said before, you don't get a warning before the opponent grabs you.

I refer back to the ICs example. If I get grabbed once by ICs and lose a stock, I don't suck. If I get grabbed on Halberd with same time on the clock and get clawed, apparently I suck.

:phone:
Well the stage did warn you before any of the hazards attacked so...don't get grabbed/hit into hazards.

Lets say I see the smashville platform coming our way and I grab you, throw you towards the platform and then you miss you tech because you weren't paying attention to the stage at all. Then I tech chase you or platform cancel in a hilarious jab lock that ends in your death. Hell, you probably grabbed me loads of times when the platform wasn't in the right position, so did I really outplay you for that stock?

I think you could pick a better stage to prove your point. I'd say those platforms on frigate aren't too fair.

I'm not completely against the line of thought that leads to banning more stages, but your logic seems to leave us with only FD and BF.
 

infiniteV115

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Don't forget that ICs are controlled by another human player that is probably skilled, and they will be your main obstacle, chasing you down for the entirety of the match, analysing your playstyle and mixing up their options accordingly.

The claw will probably go after somebody 1-3 times a match, giving a ****ton of warning, not doing much damage and having the same timing every time (as in, you can just stand there and powershield if your opponent isn't going after you). It does not think. It's extremely temporary. And it only makes 1 choice; it either attacks you or the opponent (in singles).

Besides, if you got grabbed before the claw 'launched' after you, you should have been able to mash out in time if you were at 60%, and then shield/airdodge/etc.
If you were grabbed after it began to 'launch' itself, your opponent's choice to grab you was a risk because they could have been the claw's target rather than you.

So, yes, it's stupid that you can be put into a situation where whether you or your opponent will be put at an advantage is entirely 50/50 and random. But the stupidity and anti-competitiveness of the stage is so minute and insignificant that banning the stage does more harm than good (the stage is unique, thus providing depth and diversity).
 

Ghostbone

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"You can just stand there powershield if your opponent isn't going after you"
Yea guys lets judge stages in a fighting game based on what happens when the characters don't fight.
^I shall repeat that as many times as necessary....

Anyway the claw is a problem because it gives your opponent extra platform pressure or off-stage pressure that they don't deserve. Idk if it's worth banning a stage over that but when you lose a stock due to a 50-50 chance it kinda sucks.
 

Tesh

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With so much warning, is it any worse than the SV platform?
 

-LzR-

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Yeah, the worst thing that can happen when shielding the claw is that you get grabbed. Oh the humanity!
 

Life

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^To add to this: if it's that big a deal, you can also spotdodge, roll, run, jump, or possibly even walk away (probably character dependent) and not get hit by the claw.
 

Grim Tuesday

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MK dittos against Ghostbone, everyone knows how good MK is at pressuring from below.

He was on the platform and the claw was going after him, all of his options would've gotten him u-air'd and he was at high percent and lost the game.
 

Ghostbone

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Yeah, the worst thing that can happen when shielding the claw is that you get grabbed. Oh the humanity!
Or you get shield-poked and die -_-, not to mention characters with killing throws (and there are more of them with a low ceiling)
 

Dre89

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Whatever negligence may be involved in getting KO'd by the claw doesn't change the fact that the potentially lesser player got an unnaturally high reward for an action that their chair is not normally capable of.

Even if the player is negligent, it doesn't change the fact that he still could have been the better player.

Competitive play is supposed to set up an evironment to determine who the better player is, and make it as likely as possible that the better player will win. Interfering stages are like items because they make it more likely that a lesser player can win, just as how throwing a weapon into a cage fight gives the lesser fighter a better chance of winning.

:phone:
 

Life

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But a better fighter, by definition, can take advantage of his surroundings. In any other setting, we praise the guy who notices things in his surroundings and takes advantage of them. Meanwhile, we slap the idiot who walks into a potentially messy situation without preparing beforehand. Ask anyone with a head for military tactics: it's not a competition between two armies over which can shoot straighter. Terrain is crucial. Why should Smash, a fighter series specifically designed to take this kind of strategy into account, suddenly discount it in favor of some kind of paladin-esque distortion of "fair fight?"

If you lost because of the claw on Halberd, then the other player was better than you on Halberd. So what if you can beat them on FD? That just means you can fight in a box. In that specific situation, they were prepared, you weren't, and they won out.

We play a game that tests your ability to fight on many kinds of terrain. If you can't accept that, as others have said, I would reconsider which game you play. Street Fighter is more your speed.

tl;dr the problem is in your definition of "lesser"
 

Dre89

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But a better fighter, by definition, can take advantage of his surroundings. In any other setting, we praise the guy who notices things in his surroundings and takes advantage of them. Meanwhile, we slap the idiot who walks into a potentially messy situation without preparing beforehand. Ask anyone with a head for military tactics: it's not a competition between two armies over which can shoot straighter. Terrain is crucial. Why should Smash, a fighter series specifically designed to take this kind of strategy into account, suddenly discount it in favor of some kind of paladin-esque distortion of "fair fight?"

If you lost because of the claw on Halberd, then the other player was better than you on Halberd. So what if you can beat them on FD? That just means you can fight in a box. In that specific situation, they were prepared, you weren't, and they won out.

We play a game that tests your ability to fight on many kinds of terrain. If you can't accept that, as others have said, I would reconsider which game you play. Street Fighter is more your speed.

tl;dr the problem is in your definition of "lesser"
That person wasn't better than me on Halberd. I would easily beat that person every time he doesn't get lucky with the claw or the lazer. I've probably beaten him countless times on that stage.

You're making it out as if my opponent knew the stage better, or tried to play me into that trap, he didn't. That's exactly the problem with these stages, you can get huge, unnatural rewards (in that the char normally can't get them without stage interference) without even necessarily having to outplay the opponent.

I could have grabbed him five times during that stock, he grabbed me once and took a stock. Not because of his skill, or his char, but because he got lucky with an external interference. Even if negligence is involved, the injustice is that is the punishment is disproportionate and not indicative of who the better player was.

The more interference a stage commits, the more inconsistent the results between two opponents fighting on that stage multiple times become. For example on SV the better player will probably win every single time, or lose very few, but on more interfering stages, the results wouldn't be as imbalanced (although they'd probably still be in the better person's favour).

The military example is terrible. It isn't a competitive sport, where the means is as important as the end (in that you can't cheat, it's supposed to be fair). The military only cares about getting what it wants at any cost. A military mentality in smash would be to knock the controller out of the person's hand or something else completely unsportmanly like that.

I'd like you to answer my question about the martial arts fight. Given what you have said, do you think that the fighter who is getting dominated, and happens to grab the flamethrower first when it's throw in and uses it to win, is the better martial artist? If you don't think that analogy applies, please explain how so.


Also, more interfering stages are stages where stage knowledge becomes more important than pure fighting ability. Suppose a player played on a stage that he had never played on before against someone who knew it inside-out. If the stage was like a SV or BF and didn't interfere, then the newcomer would still win if he is the better fighter. The more the stage interferes, the lower his chance of winning is, despite being the better pure fighter. That just shows interfering stages detract from pure fighting.
 

Tesh

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Dre, how is the SV platform interfering less than the Halberd Claw? Both affect the severity of a punish and both can "surprise" you if you don't pay attention.
 

Akaku94

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If neither of you is using the stage to your advantage as per the example, than you're both playing at a lower level than you should. As with the tier list or the ruleset, this is designed for the highest level of play. At high levels of play, players will use any advantage they can get short of cheating, and knowing the stage better than your opponent is a strong advantage. If neither you nor your opponent sought that advantage, than any misfortune that befalls you as a result is self-inflicted. We're not rewarding the other player based on randomness, or even based on his knowledge of the stage so much as we're punishing you for not knowing the stage. As a player, it is your OBLIGATION to know the stage you're playing on!

What defines "pure fighting" in Brawl? FD? SV? Temple? You're alluding to this idea of "pure fighting" but you can't define what that is! See this thread.

In the martial arts example, you just proved why items are banned. In the case of stages, imagine the Martial artists being placed in different arenas with different terrain and layouts (for example, a room filled with lava and rock platforms in it, or a tiny platform a hundred feet in the air). If one martial artist was able to knock the other one into the lava or off the platform, then they were the better fighter, regardless of what may have happened in a boxing ring or a cagefight.
 
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Dre, I already explained this to you. A lot of this boils down to how the game is designed.

UFC: Designed to see who emerges victorious in a 1 on 1 mixed-martial arts battle between two competitors. If someone were to throw in a flamethrower in the middle of the cage, then of course the game would seem unnatural to you. The existence of the flamethrower changes the rules and turns the game into a completely different game. The reason why it seems so unnatural to you to see who is the better UFC fighter in a game with flamethrowers is because you're comparing different games to each other. It's like trying to find out who is the better soccer player through a game of basketball.

I used Gears of War as an example. No players spawn with a flamethrower, instead, a single flamethrower is literally placed in a specific location of the map, and two teams have to capitalize on the opportunity to gain that advantage. Even though a flamethrower is placed in the middle of the map (as opposed to everyone spawning with one), nobody complains about how it's an unfair or unnatural advantage because that's how the game was designed. They aren't playing a game of "Heavily muscled war soldiers use only what's on their backs to fight the equally equipped Locust Horde", they're playing Gears of War, and in Gears of War, you're expected to use everything on the map (including the map itself) to emerge victorious, even capitalize on that flamethrower. If you don't get control of that flamethrower and lose because of it, it's your own fault for getting outplayed like that, and the other player deserves his win.

The war example was also pretty legit. Everything goes when it comes to war, and you said it yourself. That's simply the way it is. The only thing that matters is who emerges victorious at the end, and everything that can be used to your advantage should be used. That's why terrain is so important in war. Soldiers are expected use their noggins to adapt to their surroundings just as much as they're expected to have good aim, know how to fight, and work together as a team. Would you call something like this unfair? After all, the soldiers were going to have a brutish fight, man to man, and were expected to win, but they were outwitted by the other, much smaller army who used an external factor to snag the victory. Are you gonna admit that the smaller army won the battle fair and square, or are you gonna try to disqualify them for doing something unfair?

With Smash it's no different, but you're not seeing that. You're seeing Smash as if it was a game of UFC without flamethrowers, "heavily muscled war soldiers use only what's on their backs to fight the equally equipped Locust Horde" and "War with only swords, arrows and horses", where adding external factors to the game aren't part of the design, and thus, their inclusion seems strange and unfair. But that's not the way it is.

Remember, this is Smash.

Smash.

Crazy **** happens in Smash. Items appear out of nowhere and try to **** you, and lava rises from below you at unnatural speeds. The floor gets slippery at times, cars will randomly try to run you over, and red bugs will try to swallow you if you stand on them for too long. Players are expected to learn how to deal with their terrain in this game because that's the way the game was designed. It's simply the way it is. There was a lot of emphasis on this, and a good reminder of this would be our complete stage list:


Static (No Hazards) - 3
Static (With Hazards) - 5
Dynamic (No Hazards) - 17
Dynamic (With Hazards) - 18

Battlefield
Final Destination
Temple
Mario Circuit
Norfair
75m
Mario Bros
Jungle Japes
Delfino Plaza
Mushroomy Kingom
Mushroomy Kingom 2
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Smashville
Skyworld
Shadow Moses Island
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion
Big Blue
Pokemon Stadium
Hanenbow
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Halberd
Port Town Aero Dive
Wario Ware
Distant Planet
New Pork City
Summit
Pictochat
Onett
Corneria
Brinstar
Pirate Ship
Spear Pillar 1
Spear Pillar 2
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone
Green Greens


The issue with Smash is that we aren't starting with nothing, and adding things to turn it into something. It's backwards: we're starting with everything, and removing things that simply cannot belong. We start with a game with random items. We start with a game in which stages can move and hurt you. Smash is a game where multi-tasking everything that's on the screen is probably your most important skill amongst the other million skills that are expected to be mastered. That's the way it was designed. The existence of all these items and stages are proof of that, because they wouldn't have been made in the first place if we weren't expected to play on them. Just because some stages have been a little bit more than an abomination doesn't mean that we have to completely shy away from all the interfering external factors. We are supposed to deal with them, and we should be trying to preserve that intent as well as stay as true as we can to the game instead of crippling it to the point where you can't even recognize it because it's just three stages and no items.

I mean, sure, you can play Brawl with only 3 stages legal (two if you decide to ban Temple), but that's just like playing Gears without weapon spawns, or fighting a war with regulations, or even trying to box as opposed to being a UFC fighter. It's like..... what am I even doing? What am I even playing? What is this ****? It's so bear bones that looks more like a ruleset for babies who can't toughen up instead of a ruleset for winners (even the URC ruleset gives me this impression).

---

The other reason why you're arguments are misleading is because tournaments determine a player's ability to win, not who is the better player.
 

Dre89

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The army example doesn't work because it's not a question of who has the better soldiers.

In a smash fight, of course players are going to try to use the stage interferences to their advantage, but the question is whether they should be fighting on those stages to begin with.

I think you guys are using circular logic. I could say the same things about items. When you complain about being item screwed, I could just say that you didn't use the items to your advantage, or that you suck for getting KO'd by them (assuming you remove completely broken items).

Just as you have stage CPs, you could have item CPs. You could choose which items are turned on.

The logic is no different to stage interference. You guys say the player has ample warning to avoid a stage hazard, but with item CPing a player would have ways to avoid item abuse too.

Item CPing does actually sound like a cool idea though.
 

-LzR-

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No really, if you get "randomly" killed by Halberds hazards, you simply suck. Get a better example.
Why not like, roll away from the claw? You are now on the other side of the claw and your opponent is in the other, he couldn't possible punish you for it.
 

ぱみゅ

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All this circular logic is caused because we all have different points of view.

You, Dre, want the game to "compare with other high-competitive fighting games by removing external factors that might change the game, in order it can be even considered for other kind of events" (you yourself said something like that in one of your latest posts).

While Twinkie says that smash should be played as it is (or something among those lines), only removing factors that can completly distract the ability of getting a "better player", or as he said, the player who's best at winning in this game.
Some stages (like Wario Ware, for example) are distracting.
Some tactics (Circle camping, Perfect Planking) are distracting.
Items may or may not be distracting.

Is all arguable, once again, because it's all matter of what do you want from the game.
 

Dre89

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Lzr- I got grabbed. It's the grab, or the move that knocks you into the claw that's the problem, because they get an unnaturally high reward off the grab or attack.

It's equivalent to me dominating someone in a martial arts fight, then they land a single, normally not-too-harmful jab which then knocks me onto a trapdoor and my opponent wins the fight because of it, despite being dominated. Normally I'd avoid the trapdoor, but he got an unnaturally high reward from jabbing me, which is the only reason I fell into the trapdoor.

Kyokoro- My point is that the community's logic is inconsistent if they're trying to make this game as competitive as possible.
 

-LzR-

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I got grabbed in FD because there was no platform for me to land to. That's unfair too isn't it?
 

Dre89

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I got grabbed in FD because there was no platform for me to land to. That's unfair too isn't it?
And what was the unnaturally high reward that your opponent got that their char can't normally get off a grab?

There wasn't one. It was just a regular grab punish.
 

Yikarur

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Dre. just get better, the claw doesn't kill early if you DI and there are years of warning.
it was your fault and your fault alone.
 

Life

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It's equivalent to me dominating someone in a martial arts fight, then they land a single, normally not-too-harmful jab which then knocks me onto a trapdoor and my opponent wins the fight because of it, despite being dominated. Normally I'd avoid the trapdoor, but he got an unnaturally high reward from jabbing me, which is the only reason I fell into the trapdoor.
Yet another terrible analogy.

The fighter in question knew the trapdoor was there. If he's going to step between the other guy and the trapdoor, intentionally putting himself in a situation where that scenario could play out? Furthermore, if the trapdoor only opens with like ten seconds of warning? His fault.

No. Johns.
 

Dre89

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Dre. just get better, the claw doesn't kill early if you DI and there are years of warning.
it was your fault and your fault alone.
The claw still KOs earlier than his grab, and that's completely irrelevant anyway.

And I'll say it again, there is no warning on a grab. That's what the problem is, he gets an unnaturally high reward out a move he normally isn't capable of receiving that kind of reward with.

If you're going to say that you should avoid being grabbed, hit, or having to dodge or powershield right before the claw strikes, then it is reasonable to expect that no one should ever be grabbed an ICs, seeing as it's the equivalent of the claw constantly preparing to strike, in fact even worse.

Again, how is being grabbed when the claw strikes different to being grabbed by an ICs at the same time on the clock as the claw example?

Inferiority- No one is claiming that there is no negligence on his part. It's as if you guys see someone challenge the established authority and assume they must want to play on Hyrule with items and ban spikes.

Yes there is negligence on his part but the reward is heavily imbalanced. Seeing as he's been dominating the other fighter the enitre time, the other fighter has made plenty of mistakes, but because the trapdoor wasn't open then he didn't lose the fight. The dominate fighter makes one mistake of a similar calibur (or perhaps of an even smaller calibur considering a jab, or a grab in brawl isn't too hard to land) and gets punished with losing the fight. It doesn't seem like a fair reflection on who the better fighter was, considering that the dominate fighter would have landed multiple jabs on the lesser one, he was just unlucky the trapdoor wasn't open at those times.
 
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