Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread:

[HeavyLobster]

Not sure which thread to put this in, but has anyone else encountered a glitch like this on Delfino?(happens around 0:21)

Is this a known thing?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not sure which thread to put this in, but has anyone else encountered a glitch like this on Delfino?(happens around 0:21)

Is this a known thing?

This specific thing new to me, but odd fall-through-the stage glitches in general have been around since Melee.

I suppose for those keeping track at home, it's another strike against Delfino in the Delfino vs. Skyloft vs. Wuhu competition.

 

[Krysco]

To my understanding, the stage list of any Smash game directly affects the tier list and the viability of characters to a point. Could ICies win on RC? Most certainly just in the same way a Ganondorf could beat a Pikachu, ICies or Falco on FD in Brawl...it was just incredibly unfavorable. A stage can be fair and flawless or near-flawless (since it can easily be argued that every stage has a 'flaw' for someone) and still be banned due to other stages being similar to it. Look at all of the complaints towards low ceiling stages. You've got T&C, Halberd and Delfino and in a 1 or 2 ban system, there's no way to completely get rid of 'low' ceilings. I say low like that because for whatever reason, the likes of BF, FD and SV seem to be considered 'normal' ceilings, I guess just because they are higher than Halberd and the like and lower than KJ64.

If we have a whole bunch of low ceiling stages then characters like Fox will naturally do better simply because their primary kill moves kill earlier. Likewise, there's a big issue with stages having camping potential. There are plenty of defensive based characters in this game and the more stages you give them that let them run away and camp the better they appear to be.

My hope would be that the people deciding the stage list are trying to make it as fair as possible for all playstyles. Some people don't want Fox, Rosa, Sheik, ZSS being used for easy wins all because there's too many low ceilings and some don't want the likes of Villager and...R.O.B. I guess getting easy wins by constantly being able to avoid their opponent through means of the stage.

I say that and yet it's widely considered that both BF and DL64 should be legal. I know they have differences like the wind and borders and platform height but the fact that they're both pyramid shaped 3 plat stages still urks me. I mean, if you're going to have both of them legal then I see no reason we can't have two or more of the following three low ceilings: Halberd, Delifno, T&C and two or more of the traveling stages: Wuhu, Skyloft, Delfino. Heck, we seem to have two stages that are widely considered camp friendly legal with FD and DH.

 

[Ghostbone]

I fell through Skyloft day 1 of getting the game, pretty sure it's common on all moving stages. (and I've definitely clipped into the boat on wuhu recently, which is scary since it's probably easy to get spiked and die there)

 

[wizrad]

Oh, Sakurai! *wags finger*

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I fell through Skyloft day 1 of getting the game, pretty sure it's common on all moving stages. (and I've definitely clipped into the boat on wuhu recently, which is scary since it's probably easy to get spiked and die there)

Forgot about Skyloft but the boat's new and yes, that's a really terrifying situation to be in given how that particular transformation works.

 

[epicnights]

http://gfycat.com/PoisedAcceptableCrustacean

Yet another strike against PS2. The wind transformation feels like the only flaw of this stage, but it's such a massive flaw that can't be ignored.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You guys are still playing PS2? Shiek kills the whole cast off any grab between 10% and 40% on the air segment for free. That's sort of a death blow to any stage's viability, when the most popular and powerful character in the game essentially gets free 0-deaths on it.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

You guys are still playing PS2? Shiek kills the whole cast off any grab between 10% and 40% on the air segment for free. That's sort of a death blow to any stage's viability, when the most popular and powerful character in the game essentially gets free 0-deaths on it.

Wait, what does this mean for people who run FLSS? If, for example, you consider both PS2 and Halberd unacceptable stages, then that leaves 12 reasonable stages.

WIndy Hill Zone is very large and can kill at random with the springs, so I do ask that it not be a candidate for the 13th stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait, what does this mean for people who run FLSS?

Is there a single region left that runs 13 stage FLSS? If so, **** those guys, I hate them and their stupid "having players who aren't complete idiots make the ruleset" stance. I tried that and it didn't work, because complete idiots got involved anyways and all of a sudden we've gone from 15 potentially legal stages to 10 legal stages and no customs.

In general, I don't see anyone flossing with 13 stages. I haven't seen Skyloft in a dog's age, and PS2 has been gone for ages. At this point, it's either 11 stages, 9 stages, or, if you ask the people ruining Smash 4 for everyone else, 7.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Is there a single region left that runs 13 stage FLSS? If so, **** those guys, I hate them and their stupid "having players who aren't complete ****ing idiots make the ruleset" stance.

Unless major changes in stance have occurred, don't @Amazing Ampharos and @ DeLux still run FLSS in their region?

Can either of you confirm? And if you do, are you still using PS2 as a legal stage despite its major problems?

 

[J_the_Man]

So is it a guaranteed thing now that scenes are moving on to 7 stages?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

AFAIK, Nebulous still uses 9, (or maybe 10 with DL?) Which is actually not too far from my personal stagelist, which includes said 9 plus KJ64 and Wuhu.

Unless major changes in stance have occurred, don't @Amazing Ampharos and @ DeLux still run FLSS in their region?

Can either of you confirm? And if you do, are you still using PS2 as a legal stage despite its major problems?

This reminds me. At APEX 2015 the MK question was resolved with "MK is banned in Halberd and Delfino." Obviously doing a similar thing with Sheik now would be insane, but in a hypothetical future in which Sheik recieves no nerfs and is still dominant, could you forsee stages like PS2 being legal and having Sheik simply banned on them?

 

[Ansou]

Stockholm recently switched to 7 stages. We probably have the weirdest stagelist ever, with:
Starters:

• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Smashville
• Town & City
• Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks:

• Dreamland 64
• Delfino Plaza

Even though I like this one more than the most common 7-stage list, I would prefer more stages with FLSS. Right now I'm too busy arguing about custom moves though, so I haven't really had time debating which stages we should allow...

 

[DeLux]

Unless major changes in stance have occurred, don't @Amazing Ampharos and @ DeLux still run FLSS in their region?

Can either of you confirm? And if you do, are you still using PS2 as a legal stage despite its major problems?

I recently moved, but as of last tournament yes and yes (and it does not have major problems)

 

[Ghostbone]

This reminds me. At APEX 2015 the MK question was resolved with "MK is banned in Halberd and Delfino." Obviously doing a similar thing with Sheik now would be insane, but in a hypothetical future in which Sheik recieves no nerfs and is still dominant, could you forsee stages like PS2 being legal and having Sheik simply banned on them?

First of all, doing this is super arbitrary and uncompetitive. Second of all, Sheik isn't the only character that abuses wind ridiculously (though she is perhaps the most ridiculous as well as being the best character). The wind segment is just super broken in this game and ruins the whole stage.

 

[dav3yb]

So it seems like a lot of stage lists agree that castle siege is much worse than delfino. considering swapping them in our stage list.

ether that or taking out castle siege and either skyloft/wuhu and putting delfino in... that would give my current list 10 stages, which i personally like (FD, BF, SV, lylat, town&city, duckhunt, dreamland, skyloft, wuhu, castle siege, and peaches castle).

 

[Ulevo]

So it seems like a lot of stage lists agree that castle siege is much worse than delfino. considering swapping them in our stage list.

ether that or taking out castle siege and either skyloft/wuhu and putting delfino in... that would give my current list 10 stages, which i personally like (FD, BF, SV, lylat, town&city, duckhunt, dreamland, skyloft, wuhu, castle siege, and peaches castle).

How is CS worse than Delfino? Delfino has the lowest ceiling in the game during transitions, the blast zones are just as wide if not smaller than CS, there are more walk off transformations, and no water abuse.

 

[dav3yb]

How is CS worse than Delfino? Delfino has the lowest ceiling in the game during transitions, the blast zones are just as wide if not smaller than CS, there are more walk off transformations, and no water abuse.

I think it's mostly just TO jitters before a tournament. We're only a couple weekends out from what im thinking will be our largest event, so I'm going over everything with a telescope... and 2nd guessing myself.

 

[Ansou]

I think the only thing worth disliking about Castle Siege is that the walkoff transformation lasts for so long compared to other stages. Some people find the 43 seconds enough to be able to camp the walkoffs. I really can't see any justification in switching out Wuhu or Skyloft to put in Delfino Plaza though... You could just put Delfino Plaza in without taking away stages. What is the reasoning behind having specifically 10 stages?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To be fair, I've gotten some crazy early kills on CS's second form as Rosalina. Fthrow/bthrow > fair, to be specific, even though it's not a true combo. Tends to produce massive amounts of salt.

 

[Ghostbone]

Walk-off kills happen a lot on Castle Siege but every time it happens it seems to just be due to someone's poor positioning and hefty misplay.
It's a lot less intruding than the low ceiling stuff on Delfino which will get you no matter where you are on the stage.

 

[Ansou]

I really wouldn't say that the low ceiling on Delfino Plaza is a problem no matter where you are on the stage. The problem on Delfino is not really that the blastzones are low, it's that the blastzones are so close to the upper platforms. It's also only dangerous for a couple of seconds, as opposed to the walkoffs on Castle Siege. I think the question on whether Castle Siege should be legal or not would be: is walkoff camping for 43 seconds a big enough problem for the stage to be legal? I don't really know, honestly. I've only seen one person actively trying to camp these walkoffs and he didn't succeed very well when doing that against me (even though he is one of the best players in my area).

 

[dav3yb]

I think the only thing worth disliking about Castle Siege is that the walkoff transformation lasts for so long compared to other stages. Some people find the 43 seconds enough to be able to camp the walkoffs. I really can't see any justification in switching out Wuhu or Skyloft to put in Delfino Plaza though... You could just put Delfino Plaza in without taking away stages. What is the reasoning behind having specifically 10 stages?

ocd

 

[teluoborg]

The questions I want to ask about Castle Siege are the following :
1-If everyone agrees that it's not ok to have walkoffs for 100% of the time, why is it okay to have them 33% of the time ?
2-Are walkoffs something that add competitive depth to the game and that players should base their stage choice on ? Every message on this thread concerning walkoffs seems to go against it.
3-Are walkoffs something completely bad but you tolerate them because the other parts of the stage bring enough competitive depth to balance it out ? Beside 43s walkoffs I don't see what Castle Siege adds to the stage list that can't be found in other stages.

@ dav3yb perfect stage lists have an odd number of stages so that you can FLSS. If your number is even you have to have at least 1 CP, and that thought should trigger your ocd even more.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The questions I want to ask about Castle Siege are the following :
1-If everyone agrees that it's not ok to have walkoffs for 100% of the time, why is it okay to have them 33% of the time ?
2-Are walkoffs something that add competitive depth to the game and that players should base their stage choice on ? Every message on this thread concerning walkoffs seems to go against it.
3-Are walkoffs something completely bad but you tolerate them because the other parts of the stage bring enough competitive depth to balance it out ? Beside 43s walkoffs I don't see what Castle Siege adds to the stage list that can't be found in other stages.

@ dav3yb perfects stage lists have an odd number of stages so that you can FLSS. If your number is even you have to have at least 1 CP, and that thought should trigger your ocd even more.

Temporary walkoffs are less troublesome because it's feasible to wait them out. Camping the walkoff when it's about to go away anyway is a losing proposition for the camper. Granted, Castle Siege's walkoff sticks around longer than most.

I would also argue that, camping issues aside, a stage that lowers/removes the importance of offstage play is an interesting thing to consider. Compare to how FD removes platforms, a feature unique among all stages in the series ever other than Bridge of Eldin. Plus Omega forms if you're picky.

In the absence of data, I would expect transforming stages in general to be less skewed in terms of character X getting a massive (dis)advantage since the transforming would reset the game state on a regular basis, although some find this undesirable. The odds of enough forms being biased towards a specific character to overcome this are low. (Disclaimer: This is 100% theory and speculation. It also ignores Little Mac, who is himself something of an outlier in the character list.)

 

[teluoborg]

The paradox is still there :
If your character benefits from walkoffs you can pick a stage with temporary walkoffs but all permanent ones are banned
+
If your opponent benefits from walkoffs since the only legal ones are temporary you can time it out and the walkoff will go away on its own
=
If your character benefits from walkoffs you can let your opponent time you out on CS

Am I the only one thinking that it makes no goddamn sense ? What's the point to make a distinction between permanent and temporary walkoffs when the first one is banned and the second can be ignored ?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The paradox is still there :
If your character benefits from walkoffs you can pick a stage with temporary walkoffs but all permanent ones are banned
+
If your opponent benefits from walkoffs since the only legal ones are temporary you can time it out and the walkoff will go away on its own
=
If your character benefits from walkoffs you can let your opponent time you out on CS

Am I the only one thinking that it makes no goddamn sense ? What's the point to make a distinction between permanent and temporary walkoffs when the first one is banned and the second can be ignored ?

I have no good answer to this, although I suspect it's people trying to have their cake and eat it too or something along those lines, and the result is just kind of muddled and makes little sense when viewed from the outside.

 

[Ghostbone]

The questions I want to ask about Castle Siege are the following :
1-If everyone agrees that it's not ok to have walkoffs for 100% of the time, why is it okay to have them 33% of the time ?

Walk-off camping isn't feasible when the walk-offs run out, and specifically when you give up stage control and have to recover because you put yourself in that position. The timer is long enough that if walk-off camping is an issue in that particular matchup that the game won't be affected that much.

2-Are walkoffs something that add competitive depth to the game and that players should base their stage choice on ? Every message on this thread concerning walkoffs seems to go against it.
3-Are walkoffs something completely bad but you tolerate them because the other parts of the stage bring enough competitive depth to balance it out ? Beside 43s walkoffs I don't see what Castle Siege adds to the stage list that can't be found in other stages.

Stage isn't broken, by banning it you're banning the other two segments of the stage too, which are worth having on their own.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So....
Super Mario Maker...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So....
Super Mario Maker...

Oh my god this is amazing. The stage builder has a lot of limitations right now and while obviously buying a separate full price game is a bit much, I see a lot of potential in this especially if sharing of any sort is enabled.

 

[Ghostbone]

Oh my god this is amazing. The stage builder has a lot of limitations right now and while obviously buying a separate full price game is a bit much, I see a lot of potential in this especially if sharing of any sort is enabled.

Is it actually user created or is it just a bunch of premade (or maybe randomly generated) stages that look like Mario levels.
Because the video implies it's the latter, and if we could actually make stages you'd think that would be the main selling point and obviously advertised.

Assuming it's essentially just a random layout every time, and most of them look like they're walk-offs, then it's an easily banned stage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Is it actually user created or is it just a bunch of premade (or maybe randomly generated) stages that look like Mario levels.
Because the video implies it's the latter, and if we could actually make stages you'd think that would be the main selling point and obviously advertised.

Assuming it's essentially just a random layout every time, and most of them look like they're walk-offs, then it's an easily banned stage.

Good point, I assumed it was user created since that's the entire point of Mario Maker. Either way, it still looks interesting.

 

[Xeze]

Looks awesome! No chance for being tournament legal but it will be fun as hell during casual free for alls.

 

[Myed]

On SMM: Not knowing what the stage is actually going to be would really **** with stage striking. Theoretically, it could have low ceilings, impossibly high ceilings, permanent walkoffs, three platforms BF style, etc. It could benefit/**** over every character in the game, and for that reason I dont think it should be legal.
No hazards is going to make it a fun casuals stage tho.

Of course we dont know until it's out and we've had time to lab it, but I sincerely doubt no hazards is worth taking RNG layouts.

If 3ds smash homebrew is going as well as I hear its going, this could actually prove to be a nice pseudo-stage addition tool, but we are far from there yet.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I mean if it's possile to control what layout you get then we could craft it into something tourney legal, idk...

 

[Illuminose]

yeah super mario maker definitely won't be legal, this isn't even really a conversation worth having. random layouts (therefore you don't know what you're cping) and potential for lava pool hazards/walkoffs/awkward layouts...let's just not go down this road.

 

[Fuerzo]

Yeah, banned.

 

[⑨ball]

SMM looks really fun. Looks like randomly generated layouts for sure. Due to the possibility of walk offs being created, the only method for making this legal would come down to restarting the stage until we get something that isn't. If TOs and players would agree to it anyway.

 

[Ghostbone]

Since the stage is randomly generated, super mario maker only side tournaments will be fun.