STAGE SELECTION POLL - Neutral / Counterpick / Ban

[thegreginator]

Hopefully this poll will clear up any ambiguities inherent in the last one and allow for the full range of options to be shown.

DIRECTIONS:
For options 1-4, select all stages that you feel should be neutral stages, meaning they can be picked at any point during a set, including for the first match.

For options 5-8, select all options that you feel should be counterpick stages, meaning they can ONLY be picked by the loser of the first/previous game in a set.

If you feel that any stage should be banned, do not select it anywhere.

Example: If you want DL to be the neutral (default starting) stage with counterpick options for Congo and Peach's Castle, you would select 1, 6, 7. This also implies Hyrule would be banned, since it is neither a default nor counterpick.

PRO TIP: Ban % for a stage = 100% - its neutral % - its counterpick %

 

[Yobolight]

Dreamland - Neutral

Congo Jungle - Counterpick

I am iffy on Peaches Castle being a counterpick or banned (almost never play there)

Hyrule - Ban

 

[prisonchild]

what a predictable example...

 

[Cobrevolution]

i like the idea of not being able to cp to a stage you've already won on. is that chain ace's ruleset?

the only problem with having two starter stages is you can't strike. thus, how do you decide which is the first stage played?

i think i voted correctly. dl/congo as starters, everything available for cp.

 

[Deathconsciousness]

Hyrule is objectively the best stage in the game though.

 

[Yobolight]

^^^^^

The problem with polls is that too many people who have never been to a tournament and mostly post in the Smash 4 WiiU forums (like deathcounciousness) get to influence the outcome.

 

[clubbadubba]

The idea of counterpicks is silly. There shouldn't different levels of stage jankness allowable for the first game of the set and the other games. DL/CONGO/PC for neutral

 

[SheerMadness]

I'll say make em all neutral.

The uneven number kinda ****s with striking though.

 

[thegreginator]

^^^^^

The problem with polls is that too many people who have never been to a tournament and mostly post in the Smash 4 forums (like deathcounciousness) get to influence the outcome.

That's why I came up with a formula to weight votes based on skill and involvement in tournaments (see other poll thread). I can do that here once we collect more data.

The idea of counterpicks is silly. There shouldn't different levels of stage jankness allowable for the first game of the set and the other games. DL/CONGO/PC for neutral

Yeah I kind of agree with this. I voted DL/Congo neutral and PC counter because I am on the fence with PC. I think it's nice to have the variety of 3 stages but don't think PC should be played as often as DL/Congo. Eh.

 

[clubbadubba]

I'll say make em all neutral.

The uneven number kinda ****s with striking though.

You mean the even number

 

[Karajan]

^^^^^

The problem with polls is that too many people who have never been to a tournament and mostly post in the Smash 4 forums (like deathcounciousness) get to influence the outcome.

Yeah but you main ness so why should your opinion matter

 

[prisonchild]

it's kind of silly to call DL a neutral stage if you ask me. it gives a huge advantage to some characters and huge disadvantages to others. hyrule is a lot more even, but people don't want matches to take too long. so they want to stick to the stage that favours high tiers...

 

[clubbadubba]

Unless I'm mistaken the term neutral stage doesn't mean balanced across the cast, it means it has limited jankiness (moving platforms, hazards, regular edges, etc.). But again netural/CP distinction is silly

 

[TANK64]

Yeah, no stage is gonna be perfect.
DL gives all low tiers not named Link a boost.
And makes peeps less campy (especially high-tier Fox).
Am I wrong here...

 

[Sensei]

LOL @ PC being neutral, possibly the most jankiest stage out this bunch (except Zebes, Saffron, Yoshi's etc.) but fun as hell to play on.

I like the idea of DL being the only neutral, but that favors pika, falcon, and kirby? mains. The fairest option would be to allow DL, Congo, and Hyrule be neutrals and allow stage striking to give more balance to the other characters like link, fox, etc.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

it's kind of silly to call Hyrule a neutral stage if you ask me. it gives a huge advantage to some characters and huge disadvantages to others. dl is a lot more even, but people don't want matches to take too long. so they want to stick to the stage that favours high tiers...

 

[Sensei]

it's kind of silly to call Hyrule a neutral stage if you ask me. it gives a huge advantage to some characters and huge disadvantages to others. dl is a lot more even, but people don't want matches to take too long. so they want to stick to the stage that favours high tiers...

The option to stage strike it Hyrule mitigates this I believe, unless you consider Congo a non-neutral as well. Alternatively, just force players to use DL the first match, which I think is also fair.

 

[thegreginator]

Some quick results: http://imgur.com/sJ9a0zP

I did a weighted version where people with more tournament involvement and a higher ELO have their vote count for more, but the data looked almost exactly the same. Which is good because it means only active/good people are voting.

I'll continue to update the first post with this information.

Noteworthy points:

• Only 39% want Hyrule as a neutral - even less than the last poll
• 64% of people want Congo as a neutral
• Boom wants everything banned except Dreamland
• jimmyjoe and Karajan want DL as a counterpick
• Most popular position: DL/Congo neutral, Peach's counterpick, Hyrule ban

PS. how do you put that spoiler alert thing in a post? I want to paste the chart into the first post.

 

[NovaSmash]

it's kind of silly to call Hyrule a neutral stage if you ask me. it gives a huge advantage to some characters and huge disadvantages to others. dl is a lot more even, but people don't want matches to take too long. so they want to stick to the stage that favours high tiers...

....and u think other stages don't give advantages and disadvantages in some matchups?

 

[mixa]

how do you put that spoiler alert thing in a post? I want to paste the chart into the first post.

[collapse][img]http://i.imgur.com/sJ9a0zP.jpg[/img][/collapse]

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

The option to stage strike it Hyrule mitigates this I believe, unless you consider Congo a non-neutral as well. Alternatively, just force players to use DL the first match, which I think is also fair.

If you took that post seriously, then ur a CHUMP

But anyways, how does stage striking remedy you from playing on Hyrule in a set? And how does playing on Hyrule at all seem fair in the slightest?

We should be looking for a fair stage or stages, we should be trying to aim for stages with the least hazards, virtually no broken advantageous points, and NO ways to circle/triangle stalling.

Another issue we've been looking at recently is how much time playing out a match and set can take. This is interesting because inputting a timer to say, 8 minutes? Completely nullifies Hyrule from being played on, as stalling tactics will be ratified strategies to gain wins here when you gain a lead.

I fear that "fair" play will only go downhill from here on out with this stagelist once people get better at the game and realize what exactly is wrong with Hyrule and start to abuse it.

So why do we play on Hyrule again? Seems like people are too stubborn to let the stage go, even though there is clear reasons why the stage shouldn't be legal anymore. If the majority of people still believe Hyrule should be legal, you may have something worse than genesis 2 coming up for you.

....and u think other stages don't give advantages and disadvantages in some matchups?

It was a joke. No fun gav ruining everyone's time

Stage standards matter more than character balance on a stage. It's much more reasonable to battle on a fair footing than trying to keep "balance" for characters on janky stages.

 

[EggSelent]

I know my opinion isn't valued on this forum, but I think all those stages should just be neutral.

Hyrule is my favorite stage by far. It's fun to be able to do combos on the platforms / ****-pilliar, the tornadoes bring a fun element of surprise, and I get gimped a little less frequently (one throw doesn't necessarily leave you over the edge on Hyrule). In contrast, I think gimpland favors close-range characters who don't use projectiles. I also feel like on gimpland, I'm just ****ed against certain characters like Captain Falcon or Pika. On Hyrule I feel like I can be a lot more strategic, and there is more room for me to counter predictable strategies (GRAGRABGRABGRABGRABGRABUPAIRUPAIRUPAIRUPAIRUPB) . Whispy Wood is also a certified cheeky *******.

EDIT: Can somebody explain to me what's broken about Hyrule (other than that people can camp)?

 

[Cobrevolution]

to play devil's advocate with regard to tornadoes being a "fun element of surprise", you'll notice that more often than not, play comes to a standstill when a tornado spawns. it's a very disruptive hazard, especially those heat seeker ones. additionally, they can to terribly unfair kills. i die inside when i get caught by a middle platform tornado above 60, cuz i know i just lost a stock. what shouldn't have been a death combo suddenly became one because of the tornado. of course, this train of thought is also used to discuss congo's barrel - what should have been a gimp is instead a saved life. however, i think a hazard that has the ability to save a gimp is fairer than one that puts you a complete disadvantage or can kill you altogether.

not to mention the ****ing things appear to be magnetic.

 

[mixa]

im just gonna say

barrel is a hazard ok

but the tornado is a whole nother ballpark

like

i can't even put a metaphor in here it's so bad

 

[Karajan]

Boom wtf are you writing so much for

 

[prisonchild]

am I the only one that doesn't think tornadoes are that bad at all? I would almost say wind is worse than them.


btw boom made good points about looking at stage standards and not a stage with character balance, I just feel it's gonna be awful for tourneys because there is going to be very little character diversity.

 

[NovaSmash]

It was a joke. No fun gav ruining everyone's time

Stage standards matter more than character balance on a stage. It's much more reasonable to battle on a fair footing than trying to keep "balance" for characters on janky stages.

Thought you were serious

 

[bloodpeach]

tornadoes wind barrel and bumper are all super easy to adapt to. stop complaining.

Stage standards matter more than character balance on a stage. It's much more reasonable to battle on a fair footing than trying to keep "balance" for characters on janky stages.

lets just all play on fd then.

 

[mixa]

http://youtu.be/6QsThPntNvg

imagine for 2s what would've happened had I decided not to jump after the boomerang

 

[Olikus]

http://youtu.be/6QsThPntNvg

imagine for 2s what would've happened had I decided not to jump after the boomerang

did you won?

 

[Jnatty]

The japanese have it right. DL only. PC and Congo are super jank and Hyrule is just absurd bc it lets players camp so hard it isn't even funny.

 

[mixa]

did you won?

yes, and it was (internet) tournament.

 

[bloodpeach]

Solution: Don't jump into tornado spawn points without visiblity unless you know where the tornado is. Is it really that hard?
Next people are going to be saying the platforms on congo move randomly o_O

 

[mixa]

Don't jump into tornado spawn points without visiblity unless you know where the tornado is

is that an answer to the example i posted? if yes, you made no sense.

 

[bloodpeach]

How is that unclear in the slightest? If you can't see a tornado on the map, moving towards a spawn point when you cant see very far in that direction (i.e. exactly what you did in your video) is a big risk because a tornado could already be there. So don't do it unless you have to, and try to force your enemies to do it.

 

[mixa]

so
every time 2 characters are at the tent (no camera on the main stage)
one of the characters can't really count on going back up (to finish a combo, to escape a combo, to whatever it is)
because a tornado might be there

HAHAHAHA

 

[bloodpeach]

its a risk if you go up there. don't pretend it's not and then complain when the torndo gets you.

besides its not like one section of the map being dangerous removes all your options. what you did in the video accientally (going to the first plat which is safe while minimizing time on the middle flat area) is a good option. trying to get to the tent roof can be okay. you can try to scout the middle plat and flat area to find the tornado etc.

you only hate the tornado so much because you refuse to adapt your playstyle to it. if you ignore part of a stage (whether a tornado, platform, bumper, ledge, blast zone or whatever) you automatically put yourself at a disadvantge.

 

[Olikus]

Well its still a problem if you have to focus more on The tornado spawning point, than attacking your opponent.

 

[clubbadubba]

i've never seen boom write so much so coherently in my life.

 

[prisonchild]

speaking of camping and all that, have any of you ever played someone who camps underneath the left or right platforms on DL? it's pretty hard to get around against Kirby or pika