Success/Popularity stuff. Final update coming later today!

[san.]

@B.A.M.

You need to read the opening post.

The data gathering didn't begin until the beginning of 2011. You can read through the last 10 pages or so to know that this expands upon a vast amount of MK users.

It's also a double sided argument to use the only top MKs make most of the money thing, since other characters usually only have 1-4 people making most of the money for them, and the data suggests many many more MK users at all levels of earnings.

 

[John12346]

Or did you forget MLG isn't counted in this data?

2011 tournies only

 

[B.A.M.]

@ San: I know it works for other characters as well. The point being made is that its just the same for every character. When you have a solid best character in a game, especially when you have a community that was HEAVILY influenced by M2K from the beginning and his solid skills, it shouldnt be surprising that a ton of top players are going to pick him up. So given that a lot top players main and second him, as well as our top player uses the character I dont know why it would come as a surprise that MK is making that kind of money. It really isnt absurd as people make it out to be. A ton of people are acting as if noob MKs are running through stealing money from people.

@ John12346: yeah I wasnt even thinking, I completely recant that statement. I apologize about that. As it stands though, given the influences in our community and MK being the best character in the game ( that is definitely not up for debate, at least right now) the % amount made isnt unlike top tiers such as 3S Chun, Sent, etc.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[John12346]

It would defo. help if someone was taking data similar to my own, so we had a point of reference, although it does appear that some characters in other fighting games do seem to see more success than MK, idk.

I'm not exactly sure what accounts for Chun's dominance, considering she actually does have a counter in Yun in 3S... Could it be possible that she is used substantially more than MK is in our current metagame? Because that could potentially attribute to it... MvC2/3 characters don't really count, because of team mechanics, but I recognize that there are quite a few characters who fit the mold of Chun's situation, so never fear.

I'd also like to put out there that there are characters who have seen similar dominance in fighting game communities, but ultimately did receive a ban in the end. SCIV Hilde comes to mind, as well as Kiba from that one Naruto game, among a few others that I can't remember off the top of my head, so...

Maybe in cases like these, it generally does come down to the community to decide what's best?

 

[John12346]

Well, all that aside, I think it's time for an update! And I finally reached 20 MK Banned Tournaments, so here it comes! The long awaited MK Banned winnings chart!

Raw Data

Spoiler

Character
Snake: 74.7
Marth: 84.6
R.O.B.: 17.55
Pit: 17.55
MK: 160.97
Ganon: 17.55
Peach: 27
Falco: 4.5
Diddy: 26.9
TLink: 8
Wario: 6.2
Lucario: 2.58
Dedede: 2.58

User
Snake: 153.9
Marth: 154.8
R.O.B.: 70.2
Pit: 70.2
MK: 242.21
Ganon: 70.2
Peach: 27
Falco: 13.5
Diddy: 58.3
TLink: 8
Wario: 12.39
Lucario: 5.15
Dedede: 5.15

Player
DarkLink Snake: 140.4
DarkLink Marth: 140.4
KiraFlax R.O.B.: 70.2
KiraFlax Pit: 70.2
KiraFlax MK: 70.2
KiraFlax Ganon: 70.2
Kyle Peach: 27
DarkShifter MK: 18.9
Yummy Snake: 13.5
Yummy Falco: 13.5
Yummy Diddy: 13.5
Jem MK: 92.8
Felix Diddy: 44.8
Felix MK: 44.8
Bladewise Marth: 14.4
D~Mac TLink: 8
Chocheman Wario: 12.39
Chocheman MK: 12.39
Ryu0940 Lucario: 5.15
Ryu0940 Dedede: 5.15
Kyokoro MK: 3.12

Tournaments Used
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311975
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311872
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311770
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30+ Entrant Tournaments

N/A
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45+ Entrant Tournaments

N/A
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100+ Entrant Tournaments

N/A
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MK Banned Tournaments

Character
Marth: 146
Luigi: 68
Falco: 108
Snake: 90
R.O.B.: 108
Olimar: 18
Sonic: 18
Wolf: 14

User
Marth: 146
Luigi: 68
Falco: 236
Snake: 200
R.O.B.: 108
Olimar: 36
Sonic: 18
Wolf: 14

Usage
Marth: 10
Luigi: 3
R.O.B.: 5
ICs: 2
Falco: 11
DK: 3
Wario: 6
Dedede: 5
Snake: 11
Pit: 3
Yoshi: 1
PT: 1
TLink: 2
Lucario: 2
Olimar: 2
Mario: 2
Kirby: 4
Lucas: 3
Sheik: 1
Diddy: 2
Link: 1
Sonic: 1
Samus: 1
Zamus: 3
Fox: 1
Ness: 2
GaW: 1
Peach: 1
Wolf: 1

Tournaments Used
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311870
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311885
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311871

Normal Tournaments

MK Banned Tournaments

Please remember to Right Click and hit "View Image" on any image that is not large enough to be displayed properly.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So, currently speaking, and considering it's a rather small sample sizing, Ike is the last "normal" character viable in a MK free tournament (By normal, I mean "not something freaky like that one Ganondorf win")?

Cool.

 

[John12346]

If memory serves, Ganon won money TWICE over the course of these 20 tournaments.

Also, from now on, let's just count viability from the "Average" category... causes less confusion.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I can't see the Metabanned tournies chart, and when I try to copy the Url, it gives me a 404.

I WANNA SEE!!

 

[John12346]

Hah, didn't realize.

I put it back up.

 

[M@v]

Kinda what I expected on the mk bannned results. Highest percentage of a character usage is snake at 11%, a hell of a decrease from 35%, and a few other characters are in the 6-8% range.

Surprised at the 4% on kirby though. Really jumped up. It will be interesting to see in the coming months what mid-lower tier characters make significant rises, if any.

 

[Ghostbone]

There's still a lot preventing the chart being useful for analysis just yet (lol Ganon viable) but it's kinda interesting.

 

[stingers]

or maybe ganon is just viable...obv

i mean...hes def not the worst char in the game at least lol. js

 

[-Ran]

I am looking forwards to when the MK banned graph reaches sixty or so events so that the accuracy can increase. At the moment, it appears to be promising.

 

[WindMajor]

Even though the sample size is small, I love how I can already see some increased character diversity in the MK banned events just by glancing over at the colors on the chart from afar.

I hope that things keep up that way.

 

[Conviction]

Inb4GanonstaysmoreviablethanFoxWolfandPit

 

[Kuro~]

Inb4GanonstaysmoreviablethanFoxWolfandPit

XD!!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Inb4GanonstaysmoreviablethanFoxWolfandPit

Well his third or fourth (depends on most people's opinions of the Sheik MU) worst MU is gone, that is a pretty large thing for him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not really when he still has like... 3 unwinnable match-ups lol.

 

[El Duderino]

I get the feeling banning MK isn't going to mix up the tiers like some people are hoping for. This isn't a brand new game. It's the same Brawl, with the same balance issues, minus the formerly dominant character. Those character weaknesses that MK could capitalize on are not going to magically disappear. Other top tiers have similar advantages, just perhaps to a little lesser extent than MK.

The only realistic way to shake things up in Brawl, outside of a balance patch of course, is a dramatic discovery or new playstyle that gives another character or characters a significant advantage or boosts their viability.

 

[Ripple]

the entire tier list was based on how well a character played against MK.

now it's going to be how well can you play against high tiers in general.

TL should move up, G&W should, Ike should. and those are just 3 examples

 

[Grim Tuesday]

G&W should've moved up regardless of MK's legality, seeing as it is only a -2 match-up at worst.

 

[Conviction]

As seen so far El D is wrong...why is he posting against the data? lol

 

[Ghostbone]

the entire tier list was based on how well a character played against MK.

now it's going to be how well can you play against high tiers in general.

TL should move up, G&W should, Ike should. and those are just 3 examples

Who are they going to move up past though?

It's all well and good to say they've gotten better...but so has everyone else, and they don't deserve to be more than 1-2 spots above where they are now (and especially for someone like Ike, 1-2 spots means nothing, you might as well randomly order the characters within a tier as low as his)

 

[El Duderino]

As seen so far El D is wrong...why is he posting against the data? lol

The tentative data shows a list that is not drasticly different than before. It is to be expected, despite MK being out of the game, characters still have the same balance issues they've always had. Things will naturally shift around here and there, but chances are if a character was complete utter trash against MK, similar weaknesses will carry over against other match-ups.

I'm not arguing that everything will be exactly how it was, just that it would be pretty silly to assume we are looking at a brand new game here for the majority of the cast.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm not arguing that everything will be exactly how it was, just that it would be pretty silly to assume we are looking at a brand new game here for the majority of the cast.

Na man, with MK gone, every match-up in the game is even.

True facts.

 

[Steam]

the game in general is much much more balanced with MK gone... every character has multiple bad matchups now...

 

[El Duderino]

Banning MK hardly balances the rest of the game, cutting him just resolves his contribution to the mess. There still are 34 other characters, a few of which now have more opportunity to demonstrate their superiority and/or put infinities in play. You can bet Brawl's other issues are going to be a lot more common, clear, and frustrating for people now that the old balance scapegoat is gone and as players look to other available means to give them an edge.

 

[Steam]

Banning MK hardly balances the rest of the game, cutting him just resolves his contribution to the mess. There still are 34 other characters, a few of which now have more opportunity to demonstrate their superiority and/or put infinities in play. You can bet Brawl's other issues are going to be a lot more common, clear, and frustrating for people now that the old balance scapegoat is gone and as players look to other available means to give them an edge.

well at least no matter what bull**** is brought into play... IT WILL HAVE A LEGITIMATE COUNTER.

 

[Johnknight1]

LOL the 10-15 worst characters still don't stand a chance at winning a national tournament, and only the best players with said characters could ever finish in the money at a national event (that or it would require some seriously awful Brawl players).

Also, Diddy Kong and Solid Snake don't have any true counters. Both of them just have 3 light counters each (which are debatable counters). On top of that, Marth only has two light counters as well (I got all of this data from the official character match up thread by the way).

The game isn't as different as people make it. The people who won money with Meta Knight legal will probably still win money with Meta Knight banned, unless they never figure out how to play another character (which has a microscopically small chance of happening) or they quit Brawl.

 

[theunabletable]

the game in general is much much more balanced with MK gone... every character has multiple bad matchups now...

Actually one thing I always have trouble figuring out.

What is it that people like about a game where everyone has a counter? Balance is cool, if everyone were 50-50 with each other, damn that'd be cool. But what AT ALL when it comes to the quality of the game, is the bonus in every character having a matchup that's really dumb for them?

The idea of wanting there to be more of an RPS situation at the character selection screen sounds so utterly boring to me.

It seems hardly to be a plus that every character has a bad matchup, that everyone might be even further under the influence of however the bracket ends up, and which mains have to play which other mains.

I just can't conceive of why anyone would prefer a game where every character gets **** on by another. Of course it's just my opinion. Imo MK was like the gate keeper of Brawl. Kept all the gay random **** out, and made the game less based on how the bracket organizer sets it up, but I could be wrong, it's not a concept I've thought about very much.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because people like to see underdogs. If everyone was even, there would be much less hype.

Also, generally even match-ups are less interesting than slight advataged/disadvantaged ones, just because those kinds of MUs often don't give players momentum.

So yeah, it's a hype thing.

 

[Ghostbone]

Actually one thing I always have trouble figuring out.

What is it that people like about a game where everyone has a counter? Balance is cool, if everyone were 50-50 with each other, damn that'd be cool. But what AT ALL when it comes to the quality of the game, is the bonus in every character having a matchup that's really dumb for them?

The idea of wanting there to be more of an RPS situation at the character selection screen sounds so utterly boring to me.

It seems hardly to be a plus that every character has a bad matchup, that everyone might be even further under the influence of however the bracket ends up, and which mains have to play which other mains.

I just can't conceive of why anyone would prefer a game where every character gets **** on by another. Of course it's just my opinion. Imo MK was like the gate keeper of Brawl. Kept all the gay random **** out, and made the game less based on how the bracket organizer sets it up, but I could be wrong, it's not a concept I've thought about very much.

Well personally I prefer Rock Paper Scissors to Rock Paper Scissors Dynamite.
^overlysimplified but you get the idea.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That analogy isn't accurate.

Scissors can beat dynamite by snipping off the string that has been set alight.

Rock Paper Scissors God works.

 

[infiniteV115]

Rock beats God. It's a +3 matchup.
Silly Grim.

 

[LKratos]

Rock Paper Scissors sqrt(-1/0)

 

[infiniteV115]

^
I'm agree.

 

[MK26]

brawl with mk legal:

brawl with mk banned:

True story.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No because top tiers still beat the majority of the cast. No one below DDD counters Snake

 

[LKratos]

No because top tiers still beat the majority of the cast. No one below DDD counters Snake

Nah ganon has like a +3 to snake, his fair mother****er have you SEEN IT?!

 

[El Duderino]

brawl with mk banned:

True story.

That's quite the imagination you've got there. Here is a little more accurate representation. Just remove the top block for MK: