Suggested Changes to Meta Knight

[Downdraft]

I still think he could use some buffs. Again, is this game's balance leaning towards professional players?
That would make a lot of sense. I'm just a competitive player, and he does not seem like a Top 5 character relative to the people I face online and offline. Since my knowledge of competitive Smash isn't that deep, I wouldn't suggest a list of move changes. That's why I pointed out things he lacked overall. Notwithstanding, has anyone ever thought of keeping MK's old bair or making bair his current fair and giving him a better fair? The opponent doesn't always fly forward when I fair, and that's annoying. Additionally, with my proposed change to bair and fair, recovery and kills off the sides seem a little easier, which is fair. His recovery would still be balanced.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Well MK has no useless move, so thats kind of good

Jab

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Downdraft
MK is by no means too weak, read through the other threads some of his strengthes are explained there. MK has like 5 bad MUs and thats it
@ Shin_Mazinkaiser
His jab isn't even useless. Mostly because of the lasting hitboxes also behind him, covering multiple options. Its admitted his worst move though. Many characters have multiple worse moves.

 

[sneakytako]

There's something that's been bugging me about MK.

So, MK generally struggles against CC.

Usually multi hit moves do well against CC. But our Dair is just get's blown up by CC.

Compare to fox dair, fox dair destroys CC, because they can't attack between the dair hits, and he's fast enough to shine any CCC attempted.

But our Dair has way too much lag, if they CC the last hit they have all the time in the world to punish.

I wish our dair did less KB, but recovered faster.

*end gripe

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

@ Downdraft
MK is by no means too weak, read through the other threads some of his strengthes are explained there. MK has like 5 bad MUs and thats it
@ Shin_Mazinkaiser
His jab isn't even useless. Mostly because of the lasting hitboxes also behind him, covering multiple options. Its admitted his worst move though. Many characters have multiple worse moves.

What are those 5 matchups?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

5 was an estimation, also it is more like a flowing border...

Fox, Mario, Donkey Kong (only on certain stages) are the ones where he really has a disadvantage.
Ah ok probably more like 2.5 matchups where you are certainly worse. Fox because of the lasers and the early kills (a top Fox will make it so hard to even get a hit), Mario because one grab is almost half the stock which makes it a bit harder and DK because he outranges your grab and his biggest weakness are projectiles which MK doesn't have.
Strong Bad once said DK wins against anyone without and loses against anyone with projectile...
Sheik has a slight advantage because she has good CCs, is one of the only characters making MKs recovery tough and has lots od camping tools if you really play for the win, so you could consider it the 4th character, but the advantage isn't that big.
Pit might be inbetween, his neutral game isn't good enough to force MK into a disadvantage, but everywhere except for really high levels of play Pit has the advantage, same goes for Lucas.
Snake is a bit tough because of his chaingrabs and early kills, but MK can destroy him the same way.
Many of the characters most people fear (Mewtwo, Falco, Diddy, Link) are OK or even good matchups for MK.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I apologize for bumping a somewhat old thread, but a lot of this discussion kind of baffles me. As someone whos played against a lot of good MK's at majors, I feel like his weaknesses are overstated here.

Most the characters who have good CC's are put in such a terrible position from MK's dthrow that you probably won't get the opportunity to make MK respect it more than a few times.

Also I find it hard to believe that a character with above average mobility and a sword would struggle any more with projectiles than other characters. Just because he can't clank with them properly, he still has D-cape which is a very strong option imo. Not to mention dash attack being safe on shield and clanking makes it hard to play my grounded game against him.

My main issue with him is just pure air dominance. When I think of MK I think of a character who benefits greatly from the engine changes in PM. I'm under the opinion that while he was nerfed desfensively, he was buffed overall. Dair being a fast, disjointed dive-kick that you can angle, on top of all his other air options, rather than a brainless gimping move when MK still gimps fine anyways. On top of that hes got some extra kill moves like bair and shuttle loop to help him out. I would be extremely worried if there WASN'T a counter to dair with how good of a move it is(It's straight up brainlessly beaten Zard's jab against me). As it is you can only punish it with specific things, at best off my CC I can get a jab with Zard and thats only if he decides to land in front of me. Of the things I've tested I've yet to get CC grab or Dsmash.

Then in neutral position he has so many things that are difficult to punish for characters besides Fox that pre-emptively trying to CC his dair and nair are honestly the least of my worries against a good MK. I've spent a good amount of time testing all sorts of punishes against MK with a training partner, and if the MK does the right option a lot of his attacks are just plain safe. Mostly all the punishes you'll get on MK will have to be pre-emptive. Regardless of how good your spacing is he puts you in situations where you have to react in order to punish him. Gurukid's changes sound good to me. Any way to limit how frustratingly good MK's ability to get back to the ground sounds worthwhile.

I'd love to be proven wrong, and find out theres just a lot I'm not doing in what I think to be a bad match-up. I still have a tough time even when hard DI-ing his Uair, and still don't really know a way to escape from him that doesn't put me into a terrible position. His featherweight really doesn't account for much to me simply because I think hes as good as Fox. But the chances of me death combo'ing spacies via an off-stage gimp are much greater than me death combo'ing MK off the top. One mistake kills compared to two are a big difference. This might change with recovery nerfs in 3.5 of course. I'd be really glad if they changed it simply because while MK might not be the best currently(He still could end up there I think if enough people played him), I still feel that his air dominance and recovery have a negative effect on the metagame. He had a similar effect in Brawl despite some really good characters contending with him. Not to make blanket statements and over-react though, as I'm pretty confident in the balance the PMBR is doing especially with the direction they're taking on recovery.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yo
DC makes MK invisible but not actually invincible too. Also it travels like no distance when you're not doing the slash.

MK's air speed is poor. His aerial mobility isn't free like say Jigglypuff.

Dair is a super easy CC. How many times does MK actually attack with dair in a match and not get punished? Also, you said dair was a decent gimp tool. When was suicide dair a great edgeguard option?

Also MK's recovery is not free. Projectiles stop him COLD. Mario's Fireballs, Missiles, Shadow Balls, Aura Spheres, Falco's lasers, etc. Also many characters can stuff reverse Shuttle Loop on to stage with their back air. Mew2King's Mewtwo did it on Rolex's Meta Knight at KTAR 8 I believe. DC loses to edgehog. Drill Rush loses to vertical recovery and projectiles. Shuttle Loop loses to any player who's good at stuffing. That's not even character specific.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I apologize for bumping a somewhat old thread, but a lot of this discussion kind of baffles me. As someone whos played against a lot of good MK's at majors, I feel like his weaknesses are overstated here.

Most the characters who have good CC's are put in such a terrible position from MK's dthrow that you probably won't get the opportunity to make MK respect it more than a few times.

Also I find it hard to believe that a character with above average mobility and a sword would struggle any more with projectiles than other characters. Just because he can't clank with them properly

This is a rather huge problem. Characters like mario or pit, who have chain grabs, hit confirms off their projectile, spam-able projectiles etc, are rather tough for mk.

Then in neutral position he has so many things that are difficult to punish for characters besides Fox that pre-emptively trying to CC his dair and nair are honestly the least of my worries against a good MK. I've spent a good amount of time testing all sorts of punishes against MK with a training partner, and if the MK does the right option a lot of his attacks are just plain safe. Mostly all the punishes you'll get on MK will have to be pre-emptive. Regardless of how good your spacing is he puts you in situations where you have to react in order to punish him. Gurukid's changes sound good to me. Any way to limit how frustratingly good MK's ability to get back to the ground sounds worthwhile.

This preemptive thing, is untrue. You play zard, so for you, it's probably true. But, that's not true for the whole cast.

I'd love to be proven wrong, and find out theres just a lot I'm not doing in what I think to be a bad match-up. I still have a tough time even when hard DI-ing his Uair

Well, you play zard.. When I use mario, pit, sonic etc against mk I can just SDi down and at a angle and I'll be under him in a position, where he can do nothing to me. You can try to Di away or w/e it is and if he isn't ready for it, you aren't in the combo anymore. If he reads it, you could probably down b you, but that would be it, granted, you did the right Di in the first place.

His featherweight really doesn't account for much to me simply because I think hes as good as Fox.

With no shine to make his moves 100% safe, he isn't as good as fox. You just have to figure this character out. It seems obv you have a lot of problems with mk. If your only character is zard, and this seems undo able, just learn a new one, so you can beat mk. I have seen good zards beat mk solidly, so it is do able, you just have to find a way.

This might change with recovery nerfs in 3.5 of course. I'd be really glad if they changed it simply because while MK might not be the best currently(He still could end up there I think if enough people played him), I still feel that his air dominance and recovery have a negative effect on the metagame.

If you think his air dominance and recovery have a negative effect on this game, you should probably just quit the game. PM is polluted with much more vile and dastardly offenders.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Yo
DC makes MK invisible but not actually invincible too. Also it travels like no distance when you're not doing the slash.

MK's air speed is poor. His aerial mobility isn't free like say Jigglypuff.

Dair is a super easy CC. How many times does MK actually attack with dair in a match and not get punished? Also, you said dair was a decent gimp tool. When was suicide dair a great edgeguard option?

Also MK's recovery is not free. Projectiles stop him COLD. Mario's Fireballs, Missiles, Shadow Balls, Aura Spheres, Falco's lasers, etc. Also many characters can stuff reverse Shuttle Loop on to stage with their back air. Mew2King's Mewtwo did it on Rolex's Meta Knight at KTAR 8 I believe. DC loses to edgehog. Drill Rush loses to vertical recovery and projectiles. Shuttle Loop loses to any player who's good at stuffing. That's not even character specific.

I know DC isn't actually invincible, but instant DC is pretty damn fast anyways. Also I don't see how it travels "no distance." You can even cape bounce with it...thats like the distance of some longer wavedashes.

MK's air speed is poor but he has ways to make up for it. Including one of the fastest ground speeds, DC, and tornado. Also I didn't say dair is a decent gimp tool? When did I say that? I said his old dair would've been an amazing gimp tool but it doesn't even matter since he gimps fine without it. His new Dair can be angled and even if you go straight down can have its trajectory altered, combined with the fact that CC can only be done at low percentages and only certain moves can punish it when L-canceled. I'm just saying its a highly over-stated weakness. "MK loses to crouch canceling" more like badly thrown out dairs lose to crouch canceling.

MK has multiple jumps to go with all those recovery options so no I don't think his recovery is free, but in the hands of anyone competent they'd have to **** up pretty bad to get edge guarded. All the scenarios you painted don't take into account sweetspotting the ledge, airdodge, or ledgecanceling his recovery options. You're more likely to get edge guarded yourself by going off-stage to be honest, so staying on-stage is your best bet.

This is a rather huge problem. Characters like mario or pit, who have chain grabs, hit confirms off their projectile, spam-able projectiles etc, are rather tough for mk.

This preemptive thing, is untrue. You play zard, so for you, it's probably true. But, that's not true for the whole cast.


Well, you play zard.. When I use mario, pit, sonic etc against mk I can just SDi down and at a angle and I'll be under him in a position, where he can do nothing to me. You can try to Di away or w/e it is and if he isn't ready for it, you aren't in the combo anymore. If he reads it, you could probably down b you, but that would be it, granted, you did the right Di in the first place.


With no shine to make his moves 100% safe, he isn't as good as fox. You just have to figure this character out. It seems obv you have a lot of problems with mk. If your only character is zard, and this seems undo able, just learn a new one, so you can beat mk. I have seen good zards beat mk solidly, so it is do able, you just have to find a way.

If you think his air dominance and recovery have a negative effect on this game, you should probably just quit the game. PM is polluted with much more vile and dastardly offenders.

I've tested sdi'ing down and away, he gets guaranteed D-cape and sometimes angled dair. Then I tested down and towards him, he gets dair or nair. Basically from what I've seen, once he Uairs you, you're going to eat a finisher that either leaves you off-stage or just in the air again where he can continue pressure.

While I struggle with MK I can beat him. I just think its a bad matchup anyways, because I don't feel like the MK has to put much thought into what he does. Whenever I lose I feel like its because I didn't play absolutely perfect.

And really who has more air dominance than MK? Ivysaur, Pit etc.? I'll admit the change to Ivy's bair to give it actual knockback was kind of dumb, but other than that I don't think shes a problem character. While plenty of characters HAVE really good disjointed aerials, only the flyers and AGT characters come close to the options MK has in the air. Except MK beats most of them imo so *shrug*. Mewtwo is the only character who I could see being more dominating(And probably even an MK counter) and even then its simply the speed and range of fair that bug me.

I only believe in a few bad match-ups for MK. Those being Fox, Mario, Mewtwo and maybe Lucas. Eventually I think two of those would end up even. Forgive me for speculating a meta that probably won't even be here come next patch, but I do think MK at the very least will have his weaknesses worked around. Despite everyone complaining about projectiles, I feel like everyone is really just complaining about Mario. And I think MK outranges and gimps him perfectly fine. So if you learn to play around projectiles and not get grabbed you're golden.

Also I like to complain about MK in particular because honestly any other character who could be complained about are already being complained about, and I like how Zard currently does against them anyways lol.

 

[sneakytako]

I don't think fox is a bad MU, I think it's pretty even. It's easy to dash dance and space against his approaches and gimp his recovery.

I'm convinced falco and Mario are his worst MUs.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yo @ Blank Mauser MK's DC is not a reliable approach ar all. Mach Tornado is not a reliable approach at all. Dash attack and CC dtilt aren't super amazing either, especially since far range dtilt knocks away, and close range dtilt is the optimal dtilt for early combos and juggle setups.

You playing Brawl MK?

 

[AlmightySo]

I don't think fox is a bad MU, I think it's pretty even. It's easy to dash dance and space against his approaches and gimp his recovery.

I'm convinced falco and Mario are his worst MUs.

I dont know if its just me but i have a really hard time with fox. Can you go a little more in depth please cause i have a big problem with him.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I dont know if its just me but i have a really hard time with fox. Can you go a little more in depth please cause i have a big problem with him.

Up smash, up smash, up smash, up air is guaranteed if the Fox doesn't SDI the up smashes, which most of them don't. After the up air, its all based on DI. If they DI nothing or upward, up air, nair or bair are your best bets. DI forward? IDC/fair. DI behind? IDC/bair. At higher percents, if a Fox is caught in an up air string and DI's left or right, its a nearly guaranteed Oaken Reversal.

You could also go for tech chases at low percents with down throw.

Fox has no free escape aerial combo option if your up air spacing is on point (make sure to space your up airs, really important to not get hit by stray moves when trying to juggle), so juggling him is very effective. Fox's best offense option is nair/dair shine then wavedash follow up, and since MK can't be waveshined, he's forced to read your tech roll for follow ups/or get the jab reset for thunder's combos.

 

[AlmightySo]

Up smash, up smash, up smash, up air is guaranteed if the Fox doesn't SDI the up smashes, which most of them don't. After the up air, its all based on DI. If they DI nothing or upward, up air, nair or bair are your best bets. DI forward? IDC/fair. DI behind? IDC/bair. At higher percents, if a Fox is caught in an up air string and DI's left or right, its a nearly guaranteed Oaken Reversal.

You could also go for tech chases at low percents with down throw.

Fox has no free escape aerial combo option if your up air spacing is on point (make sure to space your up airs, really important to not get hit by stray moves when trying to juggle), so juggling him is very effective. Fox's best offense option is nair/dair shine then wavedash follow up, and since MK can't be waveshined, he's forced to read your tech roll for follow ups/or get the jab reset for thunder's combos.

Appreciate this but i have alot of trouble with the neutral game not combos. Thanks though.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Appreciate this but i have alot of trouble with the neutral game not combos. Thanks though.

Attack him first lol. You let Fox on yor shield, then its gonna be tough. Though imo, the general best style to beat Fox is to stuff. Outspace him. Not zone him, stuffing is more aggressive, and zoning loses to projectiles. Fox's defensive game loses to spacing and disjointed hitboxes, and MK has both and speed as well.

Also you could do basic MK tactics. Make em whiff, punish. I.E dash dances and wavedances

 

[AlmightySo]

Attack him first lol. You let Fox on yor shield, then its gonna be tough. Though imo, the general best style to beat Fox is to stuff. Outspace him. Not zone him, stuffing is more aggressive, and zoning loses to projectiles. Fox's defensive game loses to spacing and disjointed hitboxes, and MK has both and speed as well.

Also you could do basic MK tactics. Make em whiff, punish. I.E dash dances and wavedances

Thanks I lose to my brothers fox alot. Im going to try to play with this mindset ill try to let you know how it goes.

 

[sneakytako]

Fox's main approach options are to nair and dair into shine. If you shield either of these, you are instantly put at a disadvantage; you have to out space his approach and punish his landing. He can cover his landing with shine which will beat grab (usually), but he will always be vulnerable for the ~10 frames it takes for him to jump cancel shine. BUT if he chooses to straight l cancel into shield, you may hit his shield if your waiting for the shine (which in case the correct option was to grab his landing). If you can force fox into this 50:50 often, you can win by abusing fox's poor techroll and tech chasing the **** out of him.

If he chooses to laser camp, stay patient. Do not approach with shield, at least don't predictably approach with shield for the reasons above. Stay mobile, and look for your opening.

There's a sweet range that you want to stay in that would require fox to commit to a full forward nair approach that you want to stay in. It's probably about the length of 2-2.5 marth fsmashes back to back. Learning this spacing would probably help you a lot.

Fox should also die at least 70% of the time he gets knocked off the stage. If he's surviving more than that, you need to work on your edgeguarding.

 

[AlmightySo]

Fox's main approach options are to nair and dair into shine. If you shield either of these, you are instantly put at a disadvantage; you have to out space his approach and punish his landing. He can cover his landing with shine which will beat grab (usually), but he will always be vulnerable for the ~10 frames it takes for him to jump cancel shine. BUT if he chooses to straight l cancel into shield, you may hit his shield if your waiting for the shine (which in case the correct option was to grab his landing). If you can force fox into this 50:50 often, you can win by abusing fox's poor techroll and tech chasing the **** out of him.

If he chooses to laser camp, stay patient. Do not approach with shield, at least don't predictably approach with shield for the reasons above. Stay mobile, and look for your opening.

There's a sweet range that you want to stay in that would require fox to commit to a full forward nair approach that you want to stay in. It's probably about the length of 2-2.5 marth fsmashes back to back. Learning this spacing would probably help you a lot.

Fox should also die at least 70% of the time he gets knocked off the stage. If he's surviving more than that, you need to work on your edgeguarding.[/quote

 

[Blank Mauser]

Yo @ Blank Mauser MK's DC is not a reliable approach ar all. Mach Tornado is not a reliable approach at all. Dash attack and CC dtilt aren't super amazing either, especially since far range dtilt knocks away, and close range dtilt is the optimal dtilt for early combos and juggle setups.

You playing Brawl MK?

You don't have to approach with them brainlessly for them to be good. DC is amazing as a combo finisher and for specific punishes. Despite it being punishable you just have so much control over its spacing that it doesn't matter. Tornado like-wise isn't used to approach. You can use it very sparingly if you REALLY need to reverse air momentum in a jiff. Specially if you can travel at an angle under your opponent.

Most likely if you get hit by dtilt you'll rarely DI it properly, and if you do DI off-stage thats generally pretty good for MK.

Honestly you're just making it sound like MK absolutely can't adapt to his weaknesses. Sure his moves have counterplay but a good MK doesn't just pick one thing and play reaction RPS with the opponent(Though it happens). He chooses only the best moments for them.

 

[internetmovieguy]

Slightly increase MK's fall speed.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Slightly increase MK's fall speed.

No
EDIT: Like why, would this even need to be a thing??

 

[victinivcreate1]

You don't have to approach with them brainlessly for them to be good. DC is amazing as a combo finisher and for specific punishes. Despite it being punishable you just have so much control over its spacing that it doesn't matter. Tornado like-wise isn't used to approach. You can use it very sparingly if you REALLY need to reverse air momentum in a jiff. Specially if you can travel at an angle under your opponent.

Most likely if you get hit by dtilt you'll rarely DI it properly, and if you do DI off-stage thats generally pretty good for MK.

Honestly you're just making it sound like MK absolutely can't adapt to his weaknesses. Sure his moves have counterplay but a good MK doesn't just pick one thing and play reaction RPS with the opponent(Though it happens). He chooses only the best moments for them.

It'd a hella lot easier to dissect this problem if you told who you main.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It'd a hella lot easier to dissect this problem if you told who you main.

The only character he mentioned was zard, so when I replied to him, I replied with that in mind.

 

[sneakytako]

@ AlmightySo This is from melee and a different MU, but the philosophy of what I'm talking about is the same.

Watch game 2 on dreamland. M2k pretty much waits for colbol to whiff an aerial, and puts him in a situation where he can grab. (Marth can follow up fair to grab much better than MK, but it's the same basic idea is there)

 

[internetmovieguy]

No
EDIT: Like why, would this even need to be a thing??

metaknight should be a bit easier to combo

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

metaknight should be a bit easier to combo

He is easy as hell to combo, and a few characters have chain grabs on him. Just practice.

 

[AlmightySo]

@ AlmightySo This is from melee and a different MU, but the philosophy of what I'm talking about is the same.

Watch game 2 on dreamland. M2k pretty much waits for colbol to whiff an aerial, and puts him in a situation where he can grab. (Marth can follow up fair to grab much better than MK, but it's the same basic idea is there)

Thanks alot this is very helpful im really understanding the MU now.

 

[Ahenobarbus]

Even though I think MK is very balanced as is, I wouldn't be mad if he were hit by the global glide nerf that's being discussed right now (making glides last no more than 4ish seconds). Eliminates under the stage glide and nerfs high shuttle loop as recovery options, but that fits with the overall goals for 3.5.

***********************************

MK's U-tilt, Usmash, and jab are garbage though. You gotta admit.

Utilt is a really incredible move in the situations when you should use it, it just has limited applications bc of its narrow horizontal spacing. Links into usmash or any aerial, or even grab. Usmash is amazing against fastfallers and its not a bad GTFO OoS. KOs floaties decently too. Yeah the first two hits are easily SDIed, but if you're worried about that just short hop uair. Jab can combo into grab/fair/nair etc, can cause a knockdown/techchase, and is amazing at punishing spotdodges if you react late.

The back air thing is a valid point.

The move is too slow and too small to be used effectively as an EG.

So the move should have less startup or more reach.

Bair is actually amazing. Finishes uair strings, retreating bair will punish non-disjointed hitboxes/grab attempts. Also bair is a great edgeguard. You can RAR bair to hit recoveries that charge on startup. You can full hop falling bair to punish missed sweetspots safely with an L cancel (and the hitbox will actually extend below the stage if you time it right). In that same situation you can full hop falling nair (weak hit) into wavedash offstage drop zone bair against some characters for Christ's sake. You can even dthrow to RAR bair sometimes.

I'm really just scratching the surface with those points to show you how usable all of MK's moveset is. I just strongly disagree with every complaint you have against MK. To me your suggestions read like "make utilt easier to hit with" "make ftilt easier to input" "completely break one of MK's most reliable kill moves (which, as is, when shffled, is safe on shield) so I don't have to combo into it, or read my opponent's recovery and use good timing/spacing (bair)."

I don't mean to be rude, but if you watch some vids and put in the time, MK doesn't have a single unviable move.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

May I suggest the name of the thread be changed to "Suggested Changes to Meta Knight"?
I thought this thread was going to chronicle the official changes made to MK since his release in 2.6.

 

[Yurya]

MK is the one character that could possibly receive no changes from the moment he was released. And I would be happy with that as he is he is pretty fine.

 

[Jackson]

This is sorta a weird place to ask but im looking to pick up MK as a secondary and I had a question. Isn't MK's dash grab really good or something? If so, is it even necessary to JC grab with him?

 

[Spleenhunter]

This is sorta a weird place to ask but im looking to pick up MK as a secondary and I had a question. Isn't MK's dash grab really good or something? If so, is it even necessary to JC grab with him?

Welcome! I recently decided to pick up MK too. I'll try to help with what I learned of MK's grabs.

His dash grab is good, but his boost grab is better. Boost grab is a dash attack cancelled grab that can be done by doing a dash attack with the C-stick and then pressing R to grab (these are probably the easiest inputs). If you do it right he should make the "gah" sound he makes when he does the dash attack, but he will do a dash grab with boosted range. I think this is superior in every way to dash grab, so use this whenever you would use a dash grab. (It still has the long endlag like Dash grab if you miss so don't overuse it). I think pivot boost grab is especially good iirc.

JC grab has a lot shorter range but is much safer if you miss so its still useful.

 

[Jackson]

Welcome! I recently decided to pick up MK too. I'll try to help with what I learned of MK's grabs.

His dash grab is good, but his boost grab is better. Boost grab is a dash attack cancelled grab that can be done by doing a dash attack with the C-stick and then pressing R to grab (these are probably the easiest inputs). If you do it right he should make the "gah" sound he makes when he does the dash attack, but he will do a dash grab with boosted range. I think this is superior in every way to dash grab, so use this whenever you would use a dash grab. (It still has the long endlag like Dash grab if you miss so don't overuse it). I think pivot boost grab is especially good iirc.

JC grab has a lot shorter range but is much safer if you miss so its still useful.

Thanks man, that's exactly what i was looking for. Luckily, I'm already familiar with boost grabs as it was usable with Snake in Brawl. I just didn't know PM Meta Knight had one.
Thanks!

 

[Espi]

PMBR probably are gonna make changes which are unnecessary.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Title changed for clarification.

So now we know more info on 3.5, how do you think MK will be influenced by this? One less jump? Shorted Mach Tornado/Drill Rush? Shuttle Loop has a faster descend rate?

 

[9bit]

I don't think glide itself needs to be changed (on any character). Pit shouldn't be able to jump out of his glide (at the very least he should be able to jump out of aerial glide, and he'd retain his grounded glide jump cancel something something), but other than that I think it's fine.

Meta Knight has very limited and predictable options out of his glide (and some really cool stuff that isn't OP at all) and I'd be sad if they reduced glide flight time... it just doesn't make sense in game: oh, you just start falling if you glide for too long.

Anyway. Drunk. Not sure what I'm going for here. MK is one of the best designed characters in the game. Pls don't change

Title changed for clarification.

So now we know more info on 3.5, how do you think MK will be influenced by this? One less jump? Shorted Mach Tornado/Drill Rush? Shuttle Loop has a faster descend rate?

What info is this?

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't think glide itself needs to be changed (on any character). Pit shouldn't be able to jump out of his glide (at the very least he should be able to jump out of aerial glide, and he'd retain his grounded glide jump cancel something something), but other than that I think it's fine.

Meta Knight has very limited and predictable options out of his glide (and some really cool stuff that isn't OP at all) and I'd be sad if they reduced glide flight time... it just doesn't make sense in game: oh, you just start falling if you glide for too long.

Anyway. Drunk. Not sure what I'm going for here. MK is one of the best designed characters in the game. Pls don't change



What info is this?

Well we know that recoveries are gonna be nerfed, and a few people have been saying that 3.5 and 3.02 are going to be a lot different. Meta Knight is a character that gets a moderate amount of complaints.

 

[9bit]

Does he though? All the lists I see of "best designed characters" includes Meta Knight

I am super ****ing wasted drunk right now

Like you wouldn't belive

but the point stands

most poepl think MK is great
so
you know

 

[victinivcreate1]

People say that MK gets like free approaches and has OP recovery.