Suggested Custom Specials for every character

[Bighands-Senpai]

Okay. Woah woah woah.

All of those in red are not unusable. And WDK, in purple, isn't the ultimate choice to go to at all times.

@ HeavyLobster Easy on the rankings. Much of what you've put up is not right.

This. Purple is problematic as it is; it's presence means that you render the rest of the moves unusable when there's clearly at least something good about the other ones, no matter how situational.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ray is entirely right none of his customs are unviable.

Lucario's base moves are all his best ones. The customs after are situational. His DownB and UpB are the areas that should be re

 

[warriorman222]

Ray is entirely right none of his customs are unviable.

Lucario's base moves are all his best ones. The customs after are situational. His DownB and UpB are the areas that should be re

Snaring Aura Sphere is really good for punishing some dodges, it actually it. slow movement and vaccum effect also means you can finish a combo with a hit from that.

And again, can someone tell me why Ride The Wind is that bad?

 

[Berserker.]

Although Shulk's customs have been discussed, I'll just drop by and share my opinion.

Neutral
1 Monado Arts (Useful ~100% of the cast)
- Default is basically the most flexible as InfinityCollision said. Works against every character
2 Decisive Monado Arts (Useful ~65% of the cast)
- Alright now, at first I thought decisive was useless in 1v1's however... No one can't deny how potentially deadly Decisive buster. The sheer damage you can get with it is insane. Decisive arts is great against certain match ups: Characters that are bad at dealing with sword characters (Decisive buster and decisive smash) and Little Mac (Because staying in shield or speed would be great against him)
3 Hyper Monado Arts (Useful ~100% of the cast)
- Yep. Another green but this is much more riskier than Monado Arts but the reward is much much greater. The main draw from Hyper Monado Arts is being able to KO at 50-95% with Hyper Smash. The problem with Hyper arts is the duration of each art is 6 seconds only so you're forced to go on the offensive if you have a plan with this art.

Side
1 Back Slash (Useful ~50% of the cast)
- Great for punishing and okay for edgeguarding but that's pretty much it. Kinda lackluster. It can KO though if you land it on the back of the opponent
2 Back Slash Leap (Useful ~50% of the cast)
- In battlefield or any stage with platforms, this could be useful however in flat stages, it's basically back slash except with more vertical and less horizontal leaping. Utility of this is basically like back slash except when it comes to edgeguarding, I find this somewhat easier to use
3 Back Slash Charge (Useful ~85% of the cast)
- Super armor and long horizontal leap makes this back slash variant amazing. You can close in with this. Take advantage of the super armor by switching to shield or smash because you won't flinch anyway. The only draw back is that until higher %'s, the front hitting with this has hardly any hitsun and this variant also has a longest ending lag of the 3. What makes this good though is the range and that super armor

Up
1 Air Slash (Useful against ~85% of the cast)
- Straight forward recovery. Great range and KO potential. Only problem is that this has trouble snapping on the ledge. Other than that, it's pretty much all around compared to the other 2 in terms of KO power, range and recovering ability
2 Advancing Air Slash (Useful ~65% of the cast)
- As a recovery, it gets a slight boost in terms of horizontal recovering but vertically, it's lacking compared to the other 2 variants because the 2nd slash will send Shulk slightly downwards. What's good about Advancing air slash is that it auto snaps more than default air slash. Also, this has slightly more KO potential than default air slash
3 Mighty Air Slash (Useful ~50% of the cast)
- Pretty much the best air slash variant.... for recovering. As an attack the range is still good but it sucks compared to the other 2 air slash customs. It's the most damaging version of air slash and it has good KO potential (It KO's vertically). As Thinkaman mentioned, this could be useful against lighter characters (Like Jigglypuff)

Down
1 Vision (Useful ~100% of the cast)
- Yeah this is green also because this is basically a weaker power vision in easy mode. Despite the existence of power vision, vision is still super viable because is much easier to use and the timing of the counter is much more forgiving. Additionally, it still kills
2 Dash Vision (Useful ~45% of the cast)
- Alright. Pretty decent. The only problem with dash vision is that it's lacking in damage. It can KO but it's easy to notice that the KO potential is also lacking compared to the other 2 custom variants. Dash vision is good against campers if you want to close in quickly
3 Power Vision (Useful ~100% cast)
- This counter kills at low percentages. It's simply insane. The best part is that this variant is the least likely to miss against any air attack unlike vision which misses in mid-air from time to time and dash vision which outright misses in mid-air most of the time

I don't think any of Shulk's custom specials are unviable atm

 

[Emblem Lord]

The Marth Sage will give his opinion on the King of Altea's customs later. Though Shaya said alot i agreed with

 

[SapphSabre777]

After 3 agonizing weeks of grinding custom specials...I have obtained all of them. Unfortunately, because of my lack of camera and that I have a microSD card...yeah, people can fairly call me a liar. Anyways, I'll now be solely focusing on identifying which customs are the best for each character....right after my study session with Spanish.

 

[popsofctown]

I'm skeptical that a character with two command grabs and warlock punch is so well balanced he doesn't have a single unusable variant in his moveset..

Still can't edit OP..

Anyone wanna play a friend code game

 

[Orsone]

Giving my 2 cents on Junior

Clown Cannon - This is situational. It doesn't travel very far if you don't charge it and it isn't very fast.
I only use it trying to edgeguard, rarely got some kills with it but don't count on it that much.
It's not very useful but not that great either. I prefer the smaller one 'cause it's faster.
Piercing Cannon - This is probably the best of the 3. It does less damage and the hitbox is not that big, but it goes far even if you don't charge it. The only really bad downside is that it cannot be spammed consistently.
If you don't know which one to use, this is the best bet.
Air Cannon - this is just terrible. You have to charge it almost to the maximum to have a decent effect and the hitbox is not even that big. Could be useful against Lil'Mac or a char who doesn't sweetspot the ledge. There's really no point in taking this.

Clown Kart Dash - The best for damage and mixup. If it hits it puts your opponent above you and you can follow up with nair, fair, dair or uair based on the opponent's %. It helps a lot with Jr's recovery and has the highest jump of the 3.
Koopa Drift - Travels farther than the first when you drift and has multihit hitbox, so it's good against roll spammers. The downside is that it doesn't jump as high and when hits during the run puts the opponent in front of you, so you can follow up only with fair or nair. Could be useful for edgeguarding characters that recovers more orizzontally but the first one is annoying as well as this, has more damage output and allows for more mixup. This move is kind of like Sonic sideB with lot less damage output.
Grounding Dash - Doesn't travel far and has startup before the run where it goes backward a little.
It grounds opponents when they're on the ground, allowing a kill at high %. If your opponent sees it starting he can easily shild or jump away. I personally think it could be useful against matchup where landing a kill is a tad difficult.

All 3 sideB eat your second jump if you jump cancel during a run, so double jump->SideB when recovering for the best effect.

Abandon Ship - Probably the best. Could combo into the hammer at certain % securing a kill, could be used offstage from above without any risk for damage or stage spiking and is the best of the 3 for recovering.
Meteor Ejection - Doesn't go as high as the first one but can meteor the opponent if he has the koopa clown on his face when it starts.... except that the explosion hitbox could cancel the meteor effect and really, don't count on it that much for a meteor, it has super armor at the start but you must go offstage on the face of your opponent for it to work. It's not that great on the ground either, I personally think it's easier to combo into the hammer with the first one, and the first one even kill by itself.
Koopa Meteor - Meh, I personally think this is just terrible. It doesn't sweetspot the ledge when it goes upward, so you can get punished really hard just for using it. It's not even that great to hit with because the hitbox only starts when going backward.

Mechakoopa - This is definetely the best for controlling the stage. You drop one, see if the opponent gets hit by it, shield, jump, grabs it and you play accordingly. You can even put some strings if you hit with aerials. The downside is that reflectors turn Mechakoopas against Jr and it's not that great against those chars.
Impatient Mechakoopa - This is a simple spammable projectile. It's great when you throw one and the opponent grab it in the air because he imputted an aerial or an air dodge, it will explode right in their hands. I don't find it useful as the first one because it doesn't give stage control, you can spam it from afar or try to prevent the opponent from getting back to the stage.
Big Mechakoopa - This version doesn't attach to opponents, it's slower and has a short fuse. I find it just situational: it's useful against people with a reflector because the fuse is so short that it will not get back to Jr and could potentially hit the opponent even if reflected because of the huge hitbox, and against chars with spamming projectiles because the mech is so big that will cover Jr entirely.
It is even easier to do the double damage bug because of the short fuse.

I usually go for 2-1-1-1 and sometimes I change the Mechakoopa according to the matchup I'm playing.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'm skeptical that a character with two command grabs and warlock punch is so well balanced he doesn't have a single unusable variant in his moveset..

Still can't edit OP..

Anyone wanna play a friend code game

You have the wrong idea of unbalanced.

What does having two command grabs and Warlock Punch have to do with not having unusable customs? How did you manage to make this correlation? You don't have the right idea of what unusable is.

 

[popsofctown]

Some custom special slots are versatile because normals can cover their role sometimes. That's less likely with command grabs.

Warlock punch was unusable in Brawl and Melee and has no apparent improvement in frame data so it seems pretty doubtful that it has use. There's just too much history regarding that.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Warlock punch was unusable in Brawl and Melee and has no apparent improvement in frame data so it seems pretty doubtful that it has use. There's just too much history regarding that.

I'll argue that the customs for that move don't make it any more usable. Warlock Blade has the same slow charge-up time, making it just as impractical. It trades power for range; even the tipper isn't nearly as strong as the Warlock Punch. And I don't think it has the super armor toward the end either. Meanwhile, Warlock Thrust is SO much weaker. It's a lot faster, sure, but almost everything Ganon has is stronger than that move and not much slower. I guess it might see more usage due to being fast and being ok for racking up damage while keeping your KO moves fresh, but even so, I never find myself using it.

Meanwhile, Warlock Punch has one use, which it's insanely good at: following up when Ganon breaks a shield. Your foe takes too much shield damage, is immobile, you do a reverse Warlock Punch and deprive them of a stock. When none of the Warlock customs have any business being used in any other case, you may as well stick with the default and have that one awesome utility.

Speaking of: what's the stance on Ganon's up-bs? I use Darl Fists myself, but Im looking at Dark Vault more because it might make it easier to recover after meteor smashing with your Dair. Thoughts?

 

[Toxicroaker]

I think warlock thrust is the best n-special. It may not be as fast as side or down tilt, and not anywhere near as powerful as warlock punch, but it is great for racking up damage from mid-range. I only use it once or twice a match, but it's better than the other two. Warlock punch is amazing when someone's shield breaks and a fully charged f-smash wouldn't kill. Which happens about once every 30 matches. Warlock blade on the other hand should never be used. Ever. It's almost as slow as the punch (aka, it takes about a year) and it is much less powerful. Who cares about the range when you can't even get it off in the first place. At least the punch has some armor.
I would say
1 Warlock Punch
2 Warlock Blade
3 Warlock Thrust
As for the up-special, I use dark vault. It covers his horrible recovery problem. I don't personally like dark fists though, because he already has enough kill moves and the extra recovery from dark dive when you grab someone is more important imo.
I think for his up-special I would say
1 Dark Dive
2 Dark Fists
3 Dark Vault

 

[Ryik]

Regarding Rosalina & Luma, I really think Luma Power Shot isn't that bad. It makes Luma almost invincible, turns it into a very strong, lingering hitbox, and gives you plenty of time to B safely so that the Luma returns to you as soon as it stops moving. By hanging around the Luma, you can effectively create a very powerful wall and dance around it. It allows for a sort of zoning (as my friend has deemed it) at close range. Of course this assumes you take Speedy Star bit to supplement the long-range, but it's already largely superior to the other custom moves anyway.

While something similar could be said about Floaty Star Bit, it just doesn't cut it, as it doesn't last nearly as long as Luma does, nor is as powerful.

Furthermore, I don't think Luma Warp is the ideal neutral B. Sure, it gets Luma out there, but no one said that was the one and only goal of Neutral B. You lose your projectile Luma, which has lower lag then your star bits and can be used as a kill move.

I would put it
1 Luma Shot
2 Luma Warp
3 Strong Luma Shot

Each of them play very differently, and each of them have their respective uses.

Next, Regarding Jigglypuff, I really think Sing is the better move in most circumstances, at least for me. Spinphony is terrible, yes, but imo Hyper Voice isn't superior. Both Sing and Hyper Voice are punishable on the ground, (Hyper Voice even if it lands, albeit it's a smaller window) so generally you're going for Ledge cancelling when using these moves more often than not. In which case, Hyper Voice does a weak hit, while Sing puts them to sleep, which can combo into either a smash attack or, if they are in kill percent, (about 40-50%) Rest.

Hyper Voice has slightly higher range, can hit airborne opponents, and has some knockback. (Definitely not useful for killing) It does 4 damage on ledges and 6 on the third hit of using it on the ground. Sing on the other hand combos into 15-21 damage in f-smash or should kill, given that Rest shouldn't be used for racking up damage against most opponents. If it didn't kill, it would be 57+%. (20+Flower, with 57 being the minimum)

I would put it
1 Sing
2 Hyper Voice
3 Spinphony

 

[popsofctown]

Luma Warp true combos into a larger amount of damage than uncharged Luma Shot. Charged Luma shot isn't really a thing. It ends up netting some kills for now, because the game is new and we're all bad at it, but Skull Bash, Green Missile, Rollout, and Drill Rush have taught us that moves with that much warning are going to get consistently shielded on reaction once a game moves to a high level (and moves offline).
Luma Drill Shot seems more promising to me, really, since it might be a safe Luma desync that keeps Luma closer for certain matchups, but I post Luma shot because that's what the other Rosa's thought.

Finally, I would point out that saying Luma Shot is "safer" than Speedy Star Bit makes Momma sad, because Momma's Chiko has as much after lag if not more and experiences it in an unsafe position behind the spotdodging or perfect shielding opponent. Momma doesn't like it when Sheik chains forward airs on Chiko until she's offstage.
My experience has been that Nintendo successfully delivered on the guardian feel to Rosalina, and being solo for 8 seconds is a disadvantage I'd value at at least 5% damage.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Next, Regarding Jigglypuff, I really think Sing is the better move in most circumstances, at least for me. Spinphony is terrible, yes, but imo Hyper Voice isn't superior. Both Sing and Hyper Voice are punishable on the ground, (Hyper Voice even if it lands, albeit it's a smaller window) so generally you're going for Ledge cancelling when using these moves more often than not. In which case, Hyper Voice does a weak hit, while Sing puts them to sleep, which can combo into either a smash attack or, if they are in kill percent, (about 40-50%) Rest.

Hyper Voice has slightly higher range, can hit airborne opponents, and has some knockback. (Definitely not useful for killing) It does 4 damage on ledges and 6 on the third hit of using it on the ground. Sing on the other hand combos into 15-21 damage in f-smash or should kill, given that Rest shouldn't be used for racking up damage against most opponents. If it didn't kill, it would be 57+%. (20+Flower, with 57 being the minimum)

I would put it
1 Sing
2 Hyper Voice
3 Spinphony

I was actually about to talk about this before I saw you made this post. You took the words completely out of my mouth. As bad as Sing actually is, they didn't do a very good job and making her customs any better. Hyper Voice does damage and hits people in the air (whoopie) but at what cost? It does very little damage and knockback and it's easy to avoid and punish in the middle of her attacks. You might as well be better off doing an aerial attack. The only time sing or Hyper voice is ever useful is on the ledge, where like you stated, Sing gets a lot more benefits out of it. Heck I'd even consider that Sing is the only viable move. Hyper voice should be in Red and Sing should be green.

 

[popsofctown]

Does sing actually combo into anything against a good masher near the ledge?

 

[HeavyLobster]

I think warlock thrust is the best n-special. It may not be as fast as side or down tilt, and not anywhere near as powerful as warlock punch, but it is great for racking up damage from mid-range. I only use it once or twice a match, but it's better than the other two. Warlock punch is amazing when someone's shield breaks and a fully charged f-smash wouldn't kill. Which happens about once every 30 matches. Warlock blade on the other hand should never be used. Ever. It's almost as slow as the punch (aka, it takes about a year) and it is much less powerful. Who cares about the range when you can't even get it off in the first place. At least the punch has some armor.
I would say
1 Warlock Punch
2 Warlock Blade
3 Warlock Thrust
As for the up-special, I use dark vault. It covers his horrible recovery problem. I don't personally like dark fists though, because he already has enough kill moves and the extra recovery from dark dive when you grab someone is more important imo.
I think for his up-special I would say
1 Dark Dive
2 Dark Fists
3 Dark Vault

Warlock Blade has armor too. It's mostly an edgeguarding tool that you use when your opponent is cornered and doesn't have room to maneuver around its big hitbox and armor, not something to be carelessly thrown out in neutral. It's a niche tool to be sure, but it isn't useless. I've softened my stance on Warlock Thrust and concede that its hitbox is useful for stuffing some approaches, but it still requires a hard read because of how laggy it is. It's also not very rewarding at all, though I guess it is usable because the competition isn't very strong either. Also Dark Fists is actually usually better as a pure recovery than Dark Vault because its armor makes it harder to gimp and its power makes it more dangerous to try. Distance usually isn't an issue if you're using Wizard's Dropkick, which you probably should be. Dark Vault's main advantage is that it lets you go deeper for gimps, though most of the time that's not as important as what you get out of Dark Fists.

 

[Oilpath99]

I haven't tried Mac's customs too much but here's what I think.

Standard Special:
1 Straight Lunge
2 Flaming Straight Lunge
3 Stunning Straight Lunge

Side Special:
1 Jolt Haymaker
2 Grounding Blow
3 Guard Breaker

Up Special
1 Rising Uppercut
2 Tornado Uppercut
3 Rising Smash

Down Special
1 Slip Counter
2 Compact Counter
3 Dash Counter

 

[Thinkaman]

I was actually about to talk about this before I saw you made this post. You took the words completely out of my mouth. As bad as Sing actually is, they didn't do a very good job and making her customs any better. Hyper Voice does damage and hits people in the air (whoopie) but at what cost? It does very little damage and knockback and it's easy to avoid and punish in the middle of her attacks. You might as well be better off doing an aerial attack. The only time sing or Hyper voice is ever useful is on the ledge, where like you stated, Sing gets a lot more benefits out of it. Heck I'd even consider that Sing is the only viable move. Hyper voice should be in Red and Sing should be green.

Neither move should ever be used.

If you accidentally do them, Hyper Voice is punished in slightly fewer situations than Sing. It even kills Luma really easily, totally defining the matchup against Rosalina as 10-0.

 

[warriorman222]

Neither move should ever be used.

If you accidentally do them, Hyper Voice is punished in slightly fewer situations than Sing. It even kills Luma really easily, totally defining the matchup against Rosalina as 10-0.

Doesn't that purplify Hyper Voice?

 

[popsofctown]

Doesn't that purplify Hyper Voice?

It is purple.
It will be purple for eternity because i can't edit OP anymore do to cosmic forces i don't understand.

 

[Ultinarok]

I think warlock thrust is the best n-special. It may not be as fast as side or down tilt, and not anywhere near as powerful as warlock punch, but it is great for racking up damage from mid-range. I only use it once or twice a match, but it's better than the other two. Warlock punch is amazing when someone's shield breaks and a fully charged f-smash wouldn't kill. Which happens about once every 30 matches. Warlock blade on the other hand should never be used. Ever. It's almost as slow as the punch (aka, it takes about a year) and it is much less powerful. Who cares about the range when you can't even get it off in the first place. At least the punch has some armor.
I would say
1 Warlock Punch
2 Warlock Blade
3 Warlock Thrust
As for the up-special, I use dark vault. It covers his horrible recovery problem. I don't personally like dark fists though, because he already has enough kill moves and the extra recovery from dark dive when you grab someone is more important imo.
I think for his up-special I would say
1 Dark Dive
2 Dark Fists
3 Dark Vault

I'll argue that the customs for that move don't make it any more usable. Warlock Blade has the same slow charge-up time, making it just as impractical. It trades power for range; even the tipper isn't nearly as strong as the Warlock Punch. And I don't think it has the super armor toward the end either. Meanwhile, Warlock Thrust is SO much weaker. It's a lot faster, sure, but almost everything Ganon has is stronger than that move and not much slower. I guess it might see more usage due to being fast and being ok for racking up damage while keeping your KO moves fresh, but even so, I never find myself using it.

Meanwhile, Warlock Punch has one use, which it's insanely good at: following up when Ganon breaks a shield. Your foe takes too much shield damage, is immobile, you do a reverse Warlock Punch and deprive them of a stock. When none of the Warlock customs have any business being used in any other case, you may as well stick with the default and have that one awesome utility.

Speaking of: what's the stance on Ganon's up-bs? I use Darl Fists myself, but Im looking at Dark Vault more because it might make it easier to recover after meteor smashing with your Dair. Thoughts?

I don't know where people are getting this idea that Warlock Blade is so much weaker than the Punch. The tip of Warlock Blade reliably kills at ~70%, and the move comes out slightly faster I believe. It also does have some armor. People who say it is useless have never edgeguarded with it. Do you know how handy it is for a slow, punishable character like Ganon to have a kill move he can edgeguard with at a great distance while not putting himself in danger? Even if he whiffs, he can follow up with Flame Chain or even WDK.

In order for either other variant to see use, Ganon must be close, and at such a close range, an opponent will simply dodge backward and punish, unless their shield is broken like you said. Even when its broken, I rarely find a time where Side Smash won't deliver that death blow. Thrust is fast, but what exactly is wrong with using his jab or side-tilt for a quick attack?

Warlock Blade more than doubles the punch's range. And unless I'm missing something, Punch is much weaker in this game to compensate for its speed and armor, and has a sourspot just like Blade. I have used both and the power difference is marginal, certainly doesn't make up for that great range. And think about this: there are many attacks an opponent can use to outspace Punch or Thrust and punish its lag. Virtually nothing outspaces Blade outside of projectiles. If he's about to swing, they have to try shielding, spot dodging or getting the hell out of the way, because the Blade covers an enormous hitbox.

And Dark Fists is the best by far. Same range as Dive, but kills literally everything at ~80% if they try to edgeguard you. Only issue is that some characters have enough weight and falling speed to fall too low for the second blow to land, like Dedede.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

just tested it. Warlock Blade kills Mario from the center of FD with no rage, stale negation, or vectoring at 95%. That's with the tipper sweetspot, which I find really hard to land because it's so far away from ganon and so precise. Up close it wont even KO at 120% in the same circumstances. Meanwhile, Warlock Punch kills at 75%. The power difference between the sweetspot and sourspot doesnt seem to be that big either, unlike the Warlock Blade. It IS that much weaker.

However, I didnt consider using it for edgeguarding. (I tend to go Dair or Fair and then recover) That might be where Warlock Blade truly shines, in which case, I stand corrected

 

[Ultinarok]

just tested it. Warlock Blade kills Mario from the center of FD with no rage, stale negation, or vectoring at 95%. That's with the tipper sweetspot, which I find really hard to land because it's so far away from ganon and so precise. Up close it wont even KO at 120% in the same circumstances. Meanwhile, Warlock Punch kills at 75%. The power difference between the sweetspot and sourspot doesnt seem to be that big either, unlike the Warlock Blade. It IS that much weaker.

However, I didnt consider using it for edgeguarding. (I tend to go Dair or Fair and then recover) That might be where Warlock Blade truly shines, in which case, I stand corrected

Yes, from the middle of FD there is a lot of power loss, and its noticeable, but how often are you going to be using Warlock for mid-stage pressure anyway? I agree that a broken shield is a good chance, but otherwise, Ganon should be using his tremendous launch ability to keep opponents away from mid-stage anyway, via his tilts and Flame Chain.

At the edge is where the Blade can kill at ~70% reliably. Even when sourspotted, it will still kill around 100%. And it can be very difficult to avoid, especially if the opponent has a predictable recovery. Characters like Mario, Link or Falcon are helpless before a well-timed Blade, and even then if they go low to avoid it, they'll eat a dair. So its either approach from below and get Meteored, or approach horizontally and risk getting killed by Blade. It limits the opponent's options. Besides, what good is tremendous kill power if you can't land a hit? Warlock Punch has a history of being devastating, but useless at higher level play because it is slow, punishable and has a limited hitbox. Blade is weaker, but its much safer as well and that gives it great utility. I used Blade once and that was all it took, I'm never looking back, but that's just me personally.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Yes, from the middle of FD there is a lot of power loss, and its noticeable, but how often are you going to be using Warlock for mid-stage pressure anyway? I agree that a broken shield is a good chance, but otherwise, Ganon should be using his tremendous launch ability to keep opponents away from mid-stage anyway, via his tilts and Flame Chain.

At the edge is where the Blade can kill at ~70% reliably. Even when sourspotted, it will still kill around 100%. And it can be very difficult to avoid, especially if the opponent has a predictable recovery. Characters like Mario, Link or Falcon are helpless before a well-timed Blade, and even then if they go low to avoid it, they'll eat a dair. So its either approach from below and get Meteored, or approach horizontally and risk getting killed by Blade. It limits the opponent's options. Besides, what good is tremendous kill power if you can't land a hit? Warlock Punch has a history of being devastating, but useless at higher level play because it is slow, punishable and has a limited hitbox. Blade is weaker, but its much safer as well and that gives it great utility. I used Blade once and that was all it took, I'm never looking back, but that's just me personally.

I used center of FD as a general measure of knockback. (I do that for every move I test) I'll try out Blade next time I can for edgeguarding purposes and see how it works with my ganon playstyle. Kudos to you for thinking of that, btw, when I didn't!

The other big issue for me with Blade (but this is really just a nitpick) is how small and specific the sweetspot is. Too often when testing the move vs a stationary Mario I'd land the 18% sourspot instead of the 22% sweetspot and it was frustrating

 

[Cruncher93]

I used center of FD as a general measure of knockback. (I do that for every move I test) I'll try out Blade next time I can for edgeguarding purposes and see how it works with my ganon playstyle. Kudos to you for thinking of that, btw, when I didn't!

The other big issue for me with Blade (but this is really just a nitpick) is how small and specific the sweetspot is. Too often when testing the move vs a stationary Mario I'd land the 18% sourspot instead of the 22% sweetspot and it was frustrating

It's similar to Bowsers side-special when you look at custom options. I really like Bowsers default side-special, since it can kill at like 90% and deals over 20% damage. However his custom sprint side-special is superior simply because it is easier to hit, even if it hardly kills and deals only like 13% damage. You should take it for most MUs.
Ganon shouldn't use default Warlock Punch because it matters less often than the custom ones. The blade has more horizontal reach than the other ones and is nice for edgeguarding, so I would go with that one, but I can see that there might be MUs where you want to use the explosive punch.

 

[Ultinarok]

I used center of FD as a general measure of knockback. (I do that for every move I test) I'll try out Blade next time I can for edgeguarding purposes and see how it works with my ganon playstyle. Kudos to you for thinking of that, btw, when I didn't!

The other big issue for me with Blade (but this is really just a nitpick) is how small and specific the sweetspot is. Too often when testing the move vs a stationary Mario I'd land the 18% sourspot instead of the 22% sweetspot and it was frustrating

Its a matter of reads and becoming accustomed to the spacing, sort of like playing Marth or using Wolf Flash. Once you're used to it, you can read exactly when you should hit B and land the tip of the sword. While sourspotting will still be common, the sourspot hitbox is huge. It covers Ganon's body and the sword's full length, both slightly above and below the blade, and has a short lingering hitbox too (as in, it can hit a few frames after the initial thrust), thus, you will at least land the move reasonably often even when you miss the tip. Its knockback sets up well for fair or bair too, or even Dark Fists if you're feeling adventurous.

 

[Sol Gill]

Sorry if this isn't contributing towards the Puff conversation, but as someone who uses Bowser and Dedede I could leave some input for what I think works or doesn't work.

Normal B
1. Fire Breath- kind of worthless in terms of how weak it goes out.
2. Fire Shot- the best move by far, because it is consistently powerful, good spacing tool, and does decent stop back.
3. Fire Roar- same as fire breath, only worse because of the required longer recharge period.

Side B
1. Flying Slam
2. Dash Slam
3. Koopa Klaw

Honestly I think all of Bowser's side-Bs are all good, but to me there is no defining one to use.

Up B
1. Whirling Fortress- just kind of a meh middle of the road one.
2. Flying Fortress, very good vertical, and if used in tandem with Koopa Klaw, Bowser can recover VERY easily
3. Sliding Fortress- I admit I almost thought of making it red because I thought it's recover would suck, but it actually is solid in terms of horizontal recovery. Though I did notice there was sometimes a delay in when he would grab the ledge, which I could see leading to getting spiked.

Down B
1. Bowser Bomb
2. Turbulent Bomb- honestly worthless on Bowser. It's not like Mario's or Ike's where there isn't much preptime needed for it to use. For this though, you will want to jump into the air, which allows for others to possibly punish you if you don't get them with a wind box. Plus you kind of rob Bowser of one of his greatest strengths: the fear of being underneath him.
3. Slip Bomb- about as powerful, with the added bonus of tripping any near by opponents.

I'll do one for Dedede in a bit once I have more time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Normal B
1. Fire Breath- kind of worthless in terms of how weak it goes out.
2. Fire Shot- the best move by far, because it is consistently powerful, good spacing tool, and does decent stop back.
3. Fire Roar- same as fire breath, only worse because of the required longer recharge period.
.

Pretty sure this is wrong. I can see merit in all 3 options. If you're using Fire Breath so frequently that its recharge time is a problem you're doing it wrong. It's an occasional short burst move and can usually be kept fresh if you don't overdo it. Fire Roar isn't something you'll always have fresh when you need it, but does more damage and has better range, making it a good choice if you use Fire Breath sparingly.

 

[Wiley]

For the love of everything. I hope they stay legal D: I only just made the transition to customs and they are incredible. As a Ganon main, I am just shocked... Tbh I'm really happy I learned to make him work vanilla Ganon, but this is amazing. I mean all I need is the jumping wizard foot tbh and he feels so much better, but the tipper sword doesn't hurt. I want so badly to start learning all of these new MUs as after about 3500 games of customless play they have just made so much of the roster feel more viable.

Most tournies have them legal right? Any news on Apex (I've asked this elsewhere but no reply, so I'll keep fishing)

Great job with this thread for solid picks. So excited! (and not excited at all for the grind to continue unlocking, but my mains are covered so far)

 

[Teshie U]

Doesn't flying fortress let Bowser survive Bowsercides? Sounds like the best one to me.

 

[popsofctown]

Doesn't flying fortress let Bowser survive Bowsercides? Sounds like the best one to me.

Your ability to resist Bowser's side B movement is based on how much damage you've taken, so Bowser cide mostly wins you games you would have won anyway

Taking side B2 for extra horizontal movement (the extra is influenced by both players equally) and surprising people that don't react and influence fast enough, then using whirling fortress to survive could be a really strong surprise factor trick though. I don't think it'd work against strong players though.


Does anyone know if there's someone I should PM for tech support with the OP or something?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So; does this change anything amongst Bowser's side Bs?

 

[Loki]

So; does this change anything amongst Bowser's side Bs?

T-that is... That is b-beautiful...

 

[Teshie U]

Your ability to resist Bowser's side B movement is based on how much damage you've taken, so Bowser cide mostly wins you games you would have won anyway

Taking side B2 for extra horizontal movement (the extra is influenced by both players equally) and surprising people that don't react and influence fast enough, then using whirling fortress to survive could be a really strong surprise factor trick though. I don't think it'd work against strong players though.


Does anyone know if there's someone I should PM for tech support with the OP or something?

I know how side B works. I'm just pointing out that normally, if you are both on the same stock, the player with lower percent probably wants to steer on stage. However with flying fortress, Bowser can kill you anytime you have a higher percent, without having to sacrifice himself at all.

Example:
You take Bowser's first stock out and have only 60% damage taken. He respawns at 0, grabs you, kills you and then recovers to the ledge for an even game.

I think Flying fortress and dash slam are his best combination there. Up B OoS was never a big deal in Brawl and it seems even less important in this game.

 

[popsofctown]

Hm, I didn't see how that could work that way.

That seems like it could be pretty effective. Can you recover from Bowsercide even if it starts low on FD?

 

[RWB]

Swordfighter Mii:

Neutral B:
1. Gale Strike
2. Shuriken of Light
3. Blade Flurry

All three have their uses.
Gale Strike trumps most projectiles and sets up for attacks, but has a slow startup.

Shuriken of Light is the Swordfighters only fast projectile, but it has low range, and it gets weaker the closer
you are to your enemy. Probably the worst, but I can see it getting use in a few matchups.

Blade Flurry is a good kill move with on a good read and provides a powerful possible killing tool in the air. probably best used together with Chakram, though.

Side B:
1. Airborne Assault
2. Slash Launcher
3. Chakram

Airborne Assault has a lot of power(but unless charged, you'll rarely kill with it, and it's pretty predictable), and covers quite a distance as a recovery, but it's pretty easy to hit the Mii Swordfighter out of it. I don't think it's that good, but it might be useful in a few matchups.

Slash Launcher is a decent approach tool, and can start juggles, I believe.

Chakram is a possible alternative to the Neutral Special projectiles. It has a pretty quick startup unlike Gale Strike, and far more range than Shuriken. It may also be good for mindgames with the short throw option and chooseable angles.

Up B:
1. Stone Scabbard
2. Skyward Slash Dash
3. Hero's Spin

Stone Scabbard provides a lot of vertical recovery, but almost no horizontal recovery, and it has a suicide downward momentum at the end. It could possibly be used for the meteor effect on the way down, but that seems very situational.

Skyward Slash Dash: It has the best horizontal recovery(and solid vertical as well), but the startup might be an issue.

Hero Spin seems like a happy medium. It has a bit of horizontal recovery and a lot of vertical recovery, and no startup.

I don't think any of the three warrants use ouside recovery, honestly.

Down B:
1. Blade Counter
2. Reversal Slash
3. Power Thrust

Blade Counter is a counter- a good one. It seems like a solid choice in most matchups, for recovery interruption, getting out of an overwhelming offense and other shenanigans.

Reversal Slash is for matches against projectile-heavy characters. It has Mario's Cape effect, but I wouldn't rely on it to much due to the range.

Power Thrust seems pretty good all around, and if it wasn't for the fact that it makes you give up a solid counter, I'd recommend it. Still, a good alternative that punishes rolls and such.


Can't really decide on colors yet...

 

[Ryik]

Does sing actually combo into anything against a good masher near the ledge?

Sing was significantly buffed from Brawl. It takes a good masher to escape it even on the ground, and they'll only succeed at low percents. On the ledge, It is a guaranteed combo no matter how good the masher or how low the percent.

Neither move should ever be used.

If you accidentally do them, Hyper Voice is punished in slightly fewer situations than Sing. It even kills Luma really easily, totally defining the matchup against Rosalina as 10-0.

Truth be told this is true most of the time. However, one matchup does not a purple move make, imo. Sing has won me many a battle, and it is a hilarious troll move more than anything. "Out of nowhere, you are put asleep and instantly killed out of a 70 damage lead." It certainly isn't very useful, and neither is Hyper Voice against anything but Rosalina, and even then there are alternatives, but overall, say the planets align and you get usage out of it by punishing improper ledge guarding or did it on accident and it hit. Sing would be enormously superior- a game changer even, and considering how ledge singing isn't the easiest move to punish, (It is pretty fast) it isn't terribly bad.

 

[Teshie U]

Hm, I didn't see how that could work that way.

That seems like it could be pretty effective. Can you recover from Bowsercide even if it starts low on FD?

Yes, the way it works is just that Bowser slams you into the lower blast zone and then (because you no longer exist), Bowser is released from the animation and can double jump and Up B. If done properly, his flying fortress will reach the ledge on most stages.

So basically he just kills you and grabs the ledge. Very dangerous.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Hm, I didn't see how that could work that way.

That seems like it could be pretty effective. Can you recover from Bowsercide even if it starts low on FD?

Here's a good video demonstrating it: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0YFCyTC2EzU&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL2EwOtQroYs_xjGoH8Wl5kg
You can see a failed attempt at 1:50 and a successful one at 9:00. The rest of the match is also worth watching tho.